(PF) No Race with Dex Penalty

[Sylthia]

Looking through all the core and featured races of Pathfinder, it seems odd that not a single one of them has a Dex penalty. Dex is a overloaded stat, but there are builds that exist that use Dex as a dump stat. You could have a paladin that might want to find a race with +2 Str and Cha, that wouldn't mind -2 Dex for example.

Just from an RP perspective, there's bound to be a race out there that's a little clumsy, it need not even be large, since we have tons of +2 Dex races that aren't small.

(Forgive me if this has been discussed before. I remember talking about it, but couldn't find the post.)

[Psyren]

If you're willing to consider psionic races, Half-Giants (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant) get a Dex penalty. That is indeed the only one I know of though.

You could give Skarns and Deep Imaskari a PF makeover if you wanted.

[Baroncognito]

None of the uncommon races have Dex penalties either.

It looks like it's just third party races that get a Dex penalty.

[Certified]

Looking through all the core and featured races of Pathfinder, it seems odd that not a single one of them has a Dex penalty. Dex is a overloaded stat, but there are builds that exist that use Dex as a dump stat. You could have a paladin that might want to find a race with +2 Str and Cha, that wouldn't mind -2 Dex for example.

Just from an RP perspective, there's bound to be a race out there that's a little clumsy, it need not even be large, since we have tons of +2 Dex races that aren't small.

(Forgive me if this has been discussed before. I remember talking about it, but couldn't find the post.)

There were slower races once. Races with -2s and -4s, but then they were eaten when they failed to avoid a bite attack. Evolution is a funny thing.

Tasty though.

[Psyren]

Ironic then that Dragons made it to the top of the food chain :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

Ironic then that Dragons made it to the top of the food chain :smalltongue:

It's hard to take a bite out of something when it can fricassee you before you get to it.

[Talentless]

It's hard to take a bite out of something when it can fricassee you before you get to it.

Or swallow you whole.

[Fates]

Or swallow you whole.

Or crush you to a pulp, or disintegrate you with magic, or beguile you with riddles until you're driven mad, or force you to serve it till the end of your days, or pick you up and drop you, or all other manner of things.

tl/dr: Dragons are friggin' scary.

[Sylthia]

I'm really surprised the Oreads (Half-earth race) don't have a Dex penalty.

[StreamOfTheSky]

PF has a lot of stat disparity. It is very hard to find +Str races, for example. And str/dex (lightning bruiser), str/int (genius bruiser), and str/con (mighty glacier) simply do not exist as options. In fact, I don't think there are *any* races that boost 2 physical stats, perhaps some variant Aasimar does... Meanwhile, every race has a mental bonus of some sort and you can even find races (normal Aasimar, Samsaran) with two mental bonuses.

You tend to see a lot of the same combos repeated over and over in the races for stats.

[Squirrel_Dude]

PF has a lot of stat disparity. It is very hard to find +Str races, for example. And str/dex (lightning bruiser), str/int (genius bruiser), and str/con (mighty glacier) simply do not exist as options. In fact, I don't think there are *any* races that boost 2 physical stats, perhaps some variant Aasimar does... Meanwhile, every race has a mental bonus of some sort and you can even find races (normal Aasimar, Samsaran) with two mental bonuses.

You tend to see a lot of the same combos repeated over and over in the races for stats.Hobgoblins are the only one. +2 Dex and +2 Con.

In addition to that, they get 60 ft. Darkvision, and a +4 bonus on stealth. So, not a lot of other advantages.

[Baroncognito]

PF has a lot of stat disparity. It is very hard to find +Str races, for example. And str/dex (lightning bruiser), str/int (genius bruiser), and str/con (mighty glacier) simply do not exist as options. In fact, I don't think there are *any* races that boost 2 physical stats, perhaps some variant Aasimar does... Meanwhile, every race has a mental bonus of some sort and you can even find races (normal Aasimar, Samsaran) with two mental bonuses.

You tend to see a lot of the same combos repeated over and over in the races for stats.

Well, there's always Versatile Human (but it's a bit of a sacrifice).

[Wonton]

Agreed, there should definitely be something like a Goliath. Drop it to +2 Str -2 Dex +2 Con and get rid of Powerful Build and it would be balanced in PF as a +0 LA race.

[Alienist]

Perhaps they were trying to avoid making a race that would suck pretty hard for most adventuring) applications.

As for not having bonuses to two physical stats, that would then create the the other problem, that it would make other races obsolete for melee types.

[Aasimar]

Technically speaking, I think gnomes have a -2 dex penalty that evens out their +2 size bonus to dexterity, but it's never articulated like that.

[grarrrg]

As for not having bonuses to two physical stats, that would then create the the other problem, that it would make other races obsolete for melee types.

Yes, doubling up on Mental bonuses is fine, but they sure as heck better NEVER give non-casters nice things....non-casters are overpowered like that...[/sarcasm]


Hobgoblins are the only one. +2 Dex and +2 Con.

Also Merfolk +2 Dex, +2 Con, and +2 Cha, although they are odd already with a net plus 6 to stats and no stat penalty.
And if you want to get technical, I think Orcs qualify with +4 STR and a -2 to all mentals.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yes, doubling up on Mental bonuses is fine, but they sure as heck better NEVER give non-casters nice things....non-casters are overpowered like that...[/sarcasm]

Also Merfolk +2 Dex, +2 Con, and +2 Cha, although they are odd already with a net plus 6 to stats and no stat penalty.
And if you want to get technical, I think Orcs qualify with +4 STR and a -2 to all mentals.I think the penalty for merfolk is supposed to be the 5 ft. land speed, but that is very weird.

[grarrrg]

I think the penalty for merfolk is supposed to be the 5 ft. land speed, but that is very weird.

Agreed.
Merfolk actually get some fairly nice things in addition to Net+6 stats.
+2 Natural Armor bonus
Immune to being Tripped
Low-Light Vision (not Darkvision, but hey)
Amphibious
50ft. Swim Speed

But yeah...it all comes back to that 5ft. land speed.
Thankfully, there is a alternate race trait for that, you lose 20ft. on your Swim speed (down to 30ft.), and your land speed jumps to the much more manageable 15ft.
Still pretty slow, but MUCH better than 5ft. and you can always dip Barbarian or a class with Travel Domain to bring that up to 25ft. (there are a few other ways, but these 2 are quickest).

[Chained Birds]

Merfolk's make fairly decent Paladins or Cavaliers as the Mount helps deal with that low movement speed. Though it probably would look pretty interesting to see a Merfolk riding a Horse side-saddle.

[Reverent-One]

Yes, doubling up on Mental bonuses is fine, but they sure as heck better NEVER give non-casters nice things....non-casters are overpowered like that...[/sarcasm]

How many casters use two mental stats like martial characters can use multiple physical stats?

[Amphetryon]

How many casters use two mental stats like martial characters can use multiple physical stats?

Any non-INT-based Caster that uses Skills, I'd wager.

[Morbis Meh]

How many casters use two mental stats like martial characters can use multiple physical stats?

Well Clerics use both wisdom and charisma...

[Reverent-One]

Any non-INT-based Caster that uses Skills, I'd wager.

It's a side benefit worth something sure, but not really as big a deal as multiple physical stats for a martial. I wouldn't think that's enough for a race with a bonus to casting stat + bonus to INT to automatically overwhlem the other races.


Well Clerics use both wisdom and charisma...

Fair enough, had forgotten about that one.

[subject42]

How many casters use two mental stats like martial characters can use multiple physical stats?

It's not core, but quite a few useful psionic feats have a minimum wisdom prerequisite, which means that a +2 for psions can be quite useful.

[Sylthia]

I was surprised that they went with +2 to any stat for Half-orc. I originally expected something like +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int.

[StreamOfTheSky]

How many casters use two mental stats like martial characters can use multiple physical stats?

Why does this matter? Isn't being a MAD class punishment enough?

In any case, a spellcaster in PF can have his pick of ANY mental stat combined with nearly any physical stat (I'd have to check on Int/Con, can't recall any, and as mentioned Str/Int is nonexistent). So if you're saying casters tend to go for Primary casting stat + 2ndary physical stat.... PF accomodates them *very* nicely. Why can't PF accomodate the classes that use multiple physical stats, too?

[Baroncognito]

Why does this matter? Isn't being a MAD class punishment enough?

In any case, a spellcaster in PF can have his pick of ANY mental stat combined with nearly any physical stat (I'd have to check on Int/Con, can't recall any, and as mentioned Str/Int is nonexistent). So if you're saying casters tend to go for Primary casting stat + 2ndary physical stat.... PF accomodates them *very* nicely. Why can't PF accomodate the classes that use multiple physical stats, too?

It looks like +2 Int, +2 Str, -2 Wis is an option if you're okay playing a male Lashunta.

[Acanous]

Actually, even Wizards benefit from +Cha, if they're using Planar Binding.

So yeah.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Why does this matter? Isn't being a MAD class punishment enough?

In any case, a spellcaster in PF can have his pick of ANY mental stat combined with nearly any physical stat (I'd have to check on Int/Con, can't recall any, and as mentioned Str/Int is nonexistent). So if you're saying casters tend to go for Primary casting stat + 2ndary physical stat.... PF accomodates them *very* nicely. Why can't PF accomodate the classes that use multiple physical stats, too?Indeed, there isn't any Int/Con. There are a couple of Wis/Con an Wis/Str (both which involve alternate types of Tiefling), and all of those take penalties to charisma.


It looks like +2 Int, +2 Str, -2 Wis is an option if you're okay playing a male Lashunta.They're also 11 RP, so technically outside what Pathfinder considers a standard player race.

[Sylthia]

Indeed, there isn't any Int/Con. There are a couple of Wis/Con an Wis/Str (both which involve alternate types of Tiefling), and all of those take penalties to charisma.

They're also 11 RP, so technically outside what Pathfinder considers a standard player race.

Forgive me, but what does 11 RP mean?

[subject42]

I was surprised that they went with +2 to any stat for Half-orc. I originally expected something like +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int.

During the beta, half-orcs were +2 STR +2 WIS -2 CHA.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Forgive me, but what does 11 RP mean?

To rational people, it means nothing.

Race points were introduced in the Advanced Rage Guide as a points-based system to build your own races with. As it was written by SKR, the same guy who wrote the essay on a points based system for feats (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html) that did things like valuing NATURAL SPELL at half the value of Skill Focus.... So, yeah.

A race is supposed to be worth around 10 points, iirc. So above that means it's "overpowered." Except the point values are stupidly priced so making any judgments at all on the points you price a race out to doesn't really mean anything at all.

[Reverent-One]

Why does this matter? Isn't being a MAD class punishment enough?

In any case, a spellcaster in PF can have his pick of ANY mental stat combined with nearly any physical stat (I'd have to check on Int/Con, can't recall any, and as mentioned Str/Int is nonexistent). So if you're saying casters tend to go for Primary casting stat + 2ndary physical stat.... PF accomodates them *very* nicely. Why can't PF accomodate the classes that use multiple physical stats, too?

The point is that with a race with two physical stat boosts could be too good a choice for a martial character so that it overwhelms the other race choices (barring some specific goals an individual character might have). Creating an option clearly the best for such a wide range of characters would not be good design, not because it would make the martial characters too powerful, but because the race might be too good compared to other races. I'm saying that since casters generally don't need more than one stat, any specific combination of mental stats (or mental/physical combo) in a race wouldn't result in a similar metagame situation. Even then, I'm not saying that's definitely why they did it, just that I would understand their thought process if it was.

[TuggyNE]

Race points were introduced in the Advanced Rage Guide as a points-based system to build your own races with. As it was written by SKR, the same guy who wrote the essay on a points based system for feats (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html)

Oh. Oh dear. That's… that's not good.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The point is that with a race with two physical stat boosts could be too good a choice for a martial character so that it overwhelms the other race choices (barring some specific goals an individual character might have). Creating an option clearly the best for such a wide range of characters would not be good design, not because it would make the martial characters too powerful, but because the race might be too good compared to other races. I'm saying that since casters generally don't need more than one stat, any specific combination of mental stats (or mental/physical combo) in a race wouldn't result in a similar metagame situation. Even then, I'm not saying that's definitely why they did it, just that I would understand their thought process if it was.

You realize nearly every spellcaster in PF has ideal races that are hyper-suited to them, right? In fact, a caster's biggest problem in racial choice tends to be having too many amazing choices, if anything.

For example, the Sorceror....

You can be a Human and get +2 Cha as well as bonus spells known each level.
Or you can be a Half-Elf and use Paragon Surge to spontaneously learn any spell on the sorc/wiz spell list you can cast. (Or just be a Human and spend a feat to count as half-elf...)
Or be a Kitsune and pump enchantment DCs (get Fey bloodline)

Want to be a wizard? You can be an elf for int/dex and spell penetration. Don't like the con penalty? No problem! Go Tiefling and nuke cha instead! Pick up a prehensile tail while you're at it to hold your metamagic rod for you!
Life still doesn't seem quite sweet enough? Paizo's got you covered, mate! Be a Samsaran and cherry pick 6 spells from *any* arcane spellcaster's list (bard and summoner look nice, eh?) to yours without having to sacrifice that +2 Int you've come to expect....nay, demand!

There aren't already blatantly ideal races for classes? Give me a freaking break!

[Reverent-One]

You realize nearly every spellcaster in PF has ideal races that are hyper-suited to them, right? In fact, a caster's biggest problem in racial choice tends to be having too many amazing choices, if anything.

For example, the Sorceror....

You can be a Human and get +2 Cha as well as bonus spells known each level.
Or you can be a Half-Elf and use Paragon Surge to spontaneously learn any spell on the sorc/wiz spell list you can cast. (Or just be a Human and spend a feat to count as half-elf...)
Or be a Kitsune and pump enchantment DCs (get Fey bloodline)

Want to be a wizard? You can be an elf for int/dex and spell penetration. Don't like the con penalty? No problem! Go Tiefling and nuke cha instead! Pick up a prehensile tail while you're at it to hold your metamagic rod for you!
Life still doesn't seem quite sweet enough? Paizo's got you covered, mate! Be a Samsaran and cherry pick 6 spells from *any* arcane spellcaster's list (bard and summoner look nice, eh?) to yours without having to sacrifice that +2 Int you've come to expect....nay, demand!

There aren't already blatantly ideal races for classes? Give me a freaking break!

You do realize for each class you mentioned, you listed several different possible races, each with their own benefits that can do neat things the others can't, right? I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of there being one ideal race. Thanks for my making my point for me.

[Starbuck_II]

To rational people, it means nothing.

Race points were introduced in the Advanced Rage Guide as a points-based system to build your own races with.

A race is supposed to be worth around 10 points, iirc. So above that means it's "overpowered." Except the point values are stupidly priced so making any judgments at all on the points you price a race out to doesn't really mean anything at all.

Yeah, during the playtest this came up in discussion.
Many abilities (mostly dwarven) were under point valued so dwarves would stay under ten.
Really 1-12 are balanced. Above that you should start being wary (but even then, values are easy to judge).

[Sylthia]

You do realize for each class you mentioned, you listed several different possible races, each with their own benefits that can do neat things the others can't, right? I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of there being one ideal race. Thanks for my making my point for me.

They don't have to make a single race with +2 to 2 physical stats, they could have made several.

[Acanous]

I think the feat-point system is pretty good, with a couple, obvious screw-ups. Natural Spell opens up a new avenue of attack, and is useful *All freaking day*. Should cost 10. Leadership should cost 20, and should be the benchmark for maximum cost cap.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Oh. Oh dear. That's… that's not good.Heh. Go mess with the race builder system and see how hilarious it can actually get.

E.g.
Racial Qualities
(3 RP) Native Outsider
(0 RP) Medium Size
(-1 RP) Slow speed: 20 ft. and my speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance because I'm medium sized.
(-1 RP) Weakness (+2 Dex +2 Con -4 Cha)

So: I'm building a tank, so I don't really care about speed because it's going to get knocked down by armor anyway. I dump Charisma because it's charisma, and I'm immune to effects that target humanoids. We're still not done.

Total cost: 1 RP

Racial Traits
(2 RP) Lesser Lucky: +1 bonus to all saving throws
(3 RP) Greater Spell Resistance: SR 11+ character level
(2 RP) Undead Resistance: +2 bonus against disease and all mind-effecting abilities
(1 RP) Weapon Familiarity: Spiked Chain and Dueling Sword

So, my biggest problem as someone trying to tank will be spells, especially will saves. Over the course the course of building this race I've done all I could to remove that problem with spell resistance, outsider immunities, and racial bonuses to saves. Oh, and I get free proficiency in two of the better weapons in the game.

Total Cost: 10 RP

Yeah. That only took about 20 minutes. I'm sure most people here could come up with far better if they tried. Some variations include getting a bonus to strength instead of dexterity, or weapon proficiency with a Dwarven Longhammer, or maybe an Elven Curve Blade.

[Sylthia]

I've yet to see Leadership used well. Combat can take long enough without 4 more NPCs clogging up the queue. I usually houserule ban it, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

[Sylthia]

Heh. Go mess with the race builder system and see how hilarious it can actually get.

E.g.
Racial Qualities
(3 RP) Native Outsider
(0 RP) Medium Size
(-1 RP) Slow speed: 20 ft. and my speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance because I'm medium sized.
(-1 RP) Weakness (+2 Dex +2 Con -4 Cha)

So: I'm building a tank, so I don't really care about speed because it's going to get knocked down by armor anyway. I dump Charisma because it's charisma, and I'm immune to effects that target humanoids. We're still not done.

Total cost: 1 RP

Racial Traits
(2 RP) Lesser Lucky: +1 bonus to all saving throws
(3 RP) Greater Spell Resistance: SR 11+ character level
(2 RP) Undead Resistance: +2 bonus against disease and all mind-effecting abilities
(1 RP) Weapon Familiarity: Spiked Chain and Dueling Sword

So, my biggest problem as someone trying to tank will be spells, especially will saves. Over the course the course of building this race I've done all I could to remove that problem with spell resistance, outsider immunities, and racial bonuses to saves. Oh, and I get free proficiency in two of the better weapons in the game.

Total Cost: 10 RP

Yeah. That only took about 20 minutes. I'm sure most people here could come up with far better if they tried. Some variations include getting a bonus to strength instead of dexterity, or weapon proficiency with a Dwarven Longhammer, or maybe an Elven Curve Blade.

So much Cheese! I might use that thing as a tool, but will have to give it a Gestalt lookover before finalization.

[NamelessNPC]

If your DM let's you create your race for your character, then the problem is your DM. Even if the racial traits were priced correctly, that is not the system's intended use, because obviously you get stronger characters by min-maxing your way to the ideal race. It's a tool to systematically create new races to populate a world.

[Sylthia]

If your DM let's you create your race for your character, then the problem is your DM. Even if the racial traits were priced correctly, that is not the system's intended use, because obviously you get stronger characters by min-maxing your way to the ideal race. It's a tool to systematically create new races to populate a world.

Sorry if I came across as meaning I would make my own race as a player. I meant as a DM. I've made homebrew races before and strive to make them balanced.

I don't think I'd let a player make a race. There enough cheese options as is.

[Squirrel_Dude]

If your DM let's you create your race for your character, then the problem is your DM. Even if the racial traits were priced correctly, that is not the system's intended use, because obviously you get stronger characters by min-maxing your way to the ideal race. It's a tool to systematically create new races to populate a world.I agree with you. I don't intend to let players use it in a game if I was running one, and also think that creating a race is a more complex process than that tool can do. Races aren't just their ability score bonuses and racial abilities, they are also a thoughtful mix of flavor and culture that helps define a character.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If your DM let's you create your race for your character, then the problem is your DM. Even if the racial traits were priced correctly, that is not the system's intended use, because obviously you get stronger characters by min-maxing your way to the ideal race. It's a tool to systematically create new races to populate a world.

Yes, you can min-max any race bulder system and players shouldn't be able to use it, sure.

That doesn't excuse the system itself from being laughably unbalanced and wrong. Saying some homebrew race is over or underpowered because it's X race points is a meaningless statement, because the race point system is completely broken.

[Ravens_cry]

While it did add a lot of other things I like, like giving favoured class and alternate features to many uncommon races, the basic premise of build a race is basically pointless to me. If I want to homebrew a race, I'll homebrew a race.

[Amphetryon]

Yes, you can min-max any race bulder system and players shouldn't be able to use it, sure.

That doesn't excuse the system itself from being laughably unbalanced and wrong. Saying some homebrew race is over or underpowered because it's X race points is a meaningless statement, because the race point system is completely broken.

So what WOULD be a legitimate metric by which to gauge whether a given homebrew Race is overpowered or underpowered, which doesn't account for a given group's op-fu or houserules (because such criteria are so mutable as to make such qualified comparisons from table-to-table equally meaningless)?

[CTrees]

the Advanced Rage Guide

Not sure if typo or snark...


They're also 11 RP, so technically outside what Pathfinder considers a standard player race.

This isn't true. It was in the playtest version, but in the final book, dwarves are 11 RP. No alternate racial features, just straight up Core Rulebook dwarves (see ARG, pg. 241). Going beyond the seven core races into the featured and uncommon races?


Aasimar - 15 RP
Dhampir - 11 RP
Drow - 14 RP
Fetchling - 17 RP
Suli - 16 RP
Svirfneblin - 24 RP
Tengu - 13 RP
Tiefling - 13 RP
Vishkanya - 13 RP


There are a few of the featured/uncommon races they don't give scores for, and they also give the drow noble, in case anyone needed any more signs of "hey, this should really not be accessible to players" (it's 41 RP). My point is, 11 RP isn't a strong indication that a race is inappropriately strong for players, especially given the simple dwarf.

[Starbuck_II]

Heh. Go mess with the race builder system and see how hilarious it can actually get.

E.g.
Racial Qualities
(3 RP) Native Outsider
(0 RP) Medium Size
(-1 RP) Slow speed: 20 ft. and my speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance because I'm medium sized.
(-1 RP) Weakness (+2 Dex +2 Con -4 Cha)

So: I'm building a tank, so I don't really care about speed because it's going to get knocked down by armor anyway. I dump Charisma because it's charisma, and I'm immune to effects that target humanoids. We're still not done.

Total cost: 1 RP

Racial Traits
(2 RP) Lesser Lucky: +1 bonus to all saving throws
(3 RP) Greater Spell Resistance: SR 11+ character level
(2 RP) Undead Resistance: +2 bonus against disease and all mind-effecting abilities
(1 RP) Weapon Familiarity: Spiked Chain and Dueling Sword

So, my biggest problem as someone trying to tank will be spells, especially will saves. Over the course the course of building this race I've done all I could to remove that problem with spell resistance, outsider immunities, and racial bonuses to saves. Oh, and I get free proficiency in two of the better weapons in the game.

Total Cost: 10 RP

Yeah. That only took about 20 minutes. I'm sure most people here could come up with far better if they tried. Some variations include getting a bonus to strength instead of dexterity, or weapon proficiency with a Dwarven Longhammer, or maybe an Elven Curve Blade.

Spiked Chain was good in 3.5, now it is just a exotic Heavy Flail, seriously better to just use a Heavy Flail.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Not sure if typo or snark...
-snip- I'll agree with you on that. It speaks to how well balanced the system is when Paizo can't even keep to their own rules about Standard races costing up to 10 points.


Spiked Chain was good in 3.5, now it is just a exotic Heavy Flail, seriously better to just use a Heavy Flail.Probably. I just went with the spiked chain because of the possibility of being able to weapon finesse it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not sure if typo or snark...

Actually a typo. :smallsmile:

[urbanwolf]

In the campaign I started last week I have a race with
+2 Str +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cra
+1 natural Armor
+2 bonus on perception and Acrobatics
and +4 bonus on Acrobatics for high Jump
and 20 ft movement

I made the races for the campaign before I ever looked at Advance Race builder and after looking at it I found the RP system to be very flawed.