Dex Fighter

[tricktroller]

Ok folks so I wanted to make a Dex based fighter, however, I am not looking to dip classes here and there I want a straight fighter maybe a prc. Any book is pretty much open as long as it is 3.5 (so yes Tome of Battle is usable and I plan to do so!)

So for Starting stats at 28 pt
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8

For 32 pt
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8

Stats are not set in stone just my thoughts.

Feats!
Human Martial Study Shadow Blade technique
1st TWF
F1st Weapon Finesse
F2nd Martial Stance island of blades
3rd Shadow Blade
F4th Weapon FOcus Short Sword
6th Improved TWF
F6th Weapon SPec Shortsword
F8th Improved Crit Shortsword
9th Greater weapon focus short sword
F10th ?
12th Greater Twf
F12th Greater weapon spec short sword

So the basic concept of the fighter is he is swinging with two weapons getting str+dex+enhancment+weapon spec/greaterweapon spec to damage rolls with each short sword. Is there any way to improve on this build with straight fighter or some prc? Can I use martial study to select a stance and thus drop one feat? What should I take at 10th level?

I want an effective character that is also fun. I don't have to out DPS everyone but I would like to help the party bring all combats to conclusion.

One final question, what do you guys think about feat rogue instead of fighter? That way I could serve two purposes, DPS and Skill monkey.

I appreciate your time guys and gals thank you very much!

[ksbsnowowl]

Weapon Focus/Specialization is terrible. Drop it like a rock.

Wait to get Assassin's Stace as your shadow hand stance, if you can. But disregarding that, here are the other changes I'd make:

Human Martial Study Shadow Blade technique
1st TWF
F1st Weapon Finesse
F2nd Martial Stance island of blades
3rd Shadow Blade
F4th Combat Reflexes
6th Improved TWF
F6th Double Hit
F8th Improved Crit Shortsword
9th ?
F10th Deft Opportunist
12th Greater Twf
F12th Robilar's Gambit

You get 5 AoO's with your listed stats, and every time a foe attacks you, they provoke an AoO; oh, and you get to attack twice with each AoO. You also get a +4 to AoO's from Deft Opportunist.

Another really good feat to aim for would be Stormguard Warrior. The easiest way to qualify would be to dip one level of Warblade (and if you do that at first level, then your Shadow Blade Technique could have a recovery mechanic).

Stormgard Warrior + Robilar's Gambit = HUGE attack rolls to use with Power Attack, though the Power Attack part isn't as good for a TWF'er.


Can I use martial study to select a stance and thus drop one feat?No, you cannot.

[andromax]

You can pick up an item from ToB (costs 3k) basically gives you martial study. That'll save you a feat.

I'm running a pretty similar character in my current campaign.. (actually 1 levels of Exoticist fighter, but dex based with similar feats) and he's pretty cool.

I went with combat expertise + allied defense to be a bit of a party guardian. The (3rd) best kind of AC spread around to your adjacent allies makes people appreciate you more :)

[tricktroller]

Thank you so much for your replies!

Two things.

1: All of the games I play in are starting out at 1st and we rarely play beyond 12th which is why I only planned him for 12th.

2: Using items to qualify for feats is generally frowned upon in my group unless it is a stat item (plus our group of dms loves depriving characters of items. Lots of our games are very low magic. I have a level 9 two handed fighter with a +1 falchion.... and that is it.)

I would like this character to be effective at every level from 1st to 12th so odd feat chains that don't activate until 10th level are not what I am looking for. I actually like the benefits of weapon focus and weapon spec but I see the benefits of the AoO robilar's gambit double hitting fighter.

So is there a way to do that even more effectively at earlier levels? A lot of our games hang around level 3-6 because we roleplay a lot.

[Barsoom]

For Weapon Finesse, take a level of Swashbuckler, not fighter. Same bonus feat, better skill points.

[Pechvarry]

Check out the Hit-and-Run Fighter alternate class feature in Drow of the Underdark. Convince your DM to not require Drow race.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you can I suggest you to take the Hit and Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark (while it is immplied you must be a Drow to take them, it isn't explicity stated you need to do so; but ask your DM beforehand). Loose heavy armour and Tower Shield Proficiency for an untyped +2 to initiative and Dex to damage against flat footed enemies.

since this seems to be a lowish OP game, Weapon Specialization and greater version might not be that bad; but since the game starts at level 1 OP has a lot of time before he has to make those choices and make an informed decision then.

Edit: swordsage'd

[tricktroller]

Yeah convincing any of the DM's that the drow book acfs aren't meant specifically for drow is probably not going to happen. Thanks for the advice though I didn't even think about that book.

I have found that at these low power levels weapon focus and weapon spec are awesome. With 32 point point buy I would be swinging on each hand for 1d6+2 Str +4 dex +enhancement if any + 2-4 weapon spec/ greater weapon spec for a bonus of +8 to +10 without enhancements with a bab +4 dex +1-2 weapon focus +enhancement -2 twf penalty for, at 1st, +3 at 4th +7 and at 12th +18 (assuming I have a +1 or masterwork weapon at 12th)

I'm sure there are optimized builds better than this but optimized characters with no personality tend to get hate raped in our group.

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm sure there are optimized builds better than this but optimized characters with no personality tend to get hate raped in our group.
Stormwind Fallacy... Good to see you are alive and well...

[Telonius]

Any way you can work one level of Rogue (and the Craven feat) in there? Island of Blades without Sneak Attack damage to add on top of it just makes me sad.

[tricktroller]

I'm going more for damage to anything and everything as opposed to damage to sneak attackable enemies. I prefer to stay as close to possible with straight fighter, though I am working on making a feat rogue to try with this build instead. I like the idea of a skill monkey with lots of feats.

@ksbsnowowl Stormwind Fallacy?

[ksbsnowowl]

@ksbsnowowl Stormwind Fallacy?

http://www.loremaster.org/content.php/146-The-Stormwind-Fallacy

In truth, what you described isn't merely the Stormwind Fallacy, but also a corollary of it, that some see it as BAD to be GOOD at what your character is supposed to do.

[tricktroller]

Heh well while I have had some powerful character's that I roleplayed what I mean is that if you take 4 1 level dips in different classes to get this ability and this ability and this ability but you are useless until level 14 we tend to frown on those kinds of characters.

Optimizing is more about breaking rules conventions in order to do something ridiculous in my opinion, and while, as an exercise in fun, I do like optimizing characters, I find that making a good character that isn't going to wreck every single encounter single-handedly is more fun.

I can agree that while not necessary for good roleplaying, having a character who is more than just optimized feats classes and items is more fun than the optimized character.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Heh well while I have had some powerful character's that I roleplayed what I mean is that if you take 4 1 level dips in different classes to get this ability and this ability and this ability but you are useless until level 14 we tend to frown on those kinds of characters.

Optimizing is more about breaking rules conventions in order to do something ridiculous in my opinion, and while, as an exercise in fun, I do like optimizing characters, I find that making a good character that isn't going to wreck every single encounter single-handedly is more fun.

I can agree that while not necessary for good roleplaying, having a character who is more than just optimized feats classes and items is more fun than the optimized character.

you are a Dex based fighter right? So obviously you are going to get Dex as your highest stat, right? That is optimizing, plane and simple.

[ksbsnowowl]

I can agree that while not necessary for good roleplaying, having a character who is more than just optimized feats classes and items is more fun than the optimized character.
And none of that has ANYTHING to do with what is written on your character sheet. That's the roleplay, the character personality. That's all YOU, the player, not the mechanical decisions your character has written on his sheet.* You are giving a shining example of the Stormwind Fallacy. You are implying that you cannot have a character that is more than his feat choices simply because you made effective choices. That is patently untrue.

*The exception is if your character is supposed to be the best as X in the region, but all your mechanical choices make you decidedly NOT the best at what you are supposed to be best at.

[tricktroller]

No. That is common sense. If you are reducing MAD throught he use of feats that is not "optimizing."

Optimizing is taking 1 level in monk with carmendine monk 3 levels in swashbuckler for insightful strike, 4 levels in sword sage for insightful strike again but for wis to damage, shadow blade for dex to damage and then hitting something for 1d6 _str+dex+wis+int for damage. Obviously that isn't the best example of true optimizing but I think my point should be obvious. Taking a straight fighter is nowhere near as optimized as any of the builds that dip a level here and here and there for pounce and for this random ability or that random ability that all synergize until at level 12 you hit for infinite damage.

[tricktroller]

I am saying that the unoptimized build is more fun. That is all.

[ksbsnowowl]

I am saying that the unoptimized build is more fun. That is all.

As long as you realize that is only your OPINION, for you, and is not some universal truth. Those who disagree are not having "wrong bad fun."

[DEMON]

Weapon Finesse is a waste IMO when Feycraft weapons are available. You might want to retrain it least, if you really need it at low levels.

Assassin's Stance gives you Sneak Attack which allows you to grab Craven (it's not that big of an investment towards Sneak Attack).

If you can't take the Hit-and-Run Fighter, there's really not much need for the Island of Blades... unless you have another Sneak Attacker in the party.

[Barsoom]

I am saying that the unoptimized build is more fun to me. That is all.Fixed that for you.

[tricktroller]

Yeah I know it is my opinion... Just like it is yours that an optimized character is better. Mechanically sure, but you don't have max ranks in craft brew beer and skill focus craft beer like my master dwarven brewsmith cleric of Hanseath with his tankard greataxe. That's right a greataxe that holds 2 pints of ale. lol

Also once again low magic so probably never ever get a feycraft weapon and certainly won't at level 1. Retraining is possible so if I find one cool but not going to count on getting one. The point of Island of blades is to get flanking bonuses and give flanking bonuses to other players. I will be working towards higher AC through Dex and dealing damage to tank.

It might be worth it to take assassins stance and craven for more damage while using island of blades but where would you put that in the feat progression to not make him take useless feats at weird levels so he maintains effectiveness.

[SowZ]

No. That is common sense. If you are reducing MAD throught he use of feats that is not "optimizing."

Optimizing is taking 1 level in monk with carmendine monk 3 levels in swashbuckler for insightful strike, 4 levels in sword sage for insightful strike again but for wis to damage, shadow blade for dex to damage and then hitting something for 1d6 _str+dex+wis+int for damage. Obviously that isn't the best example of true optimizing but I think my point should be obvious. Taking a straight fighter is nowhere near as optimized as any of the builds that dip a level here and here and there for pounce and for this random ability or that random ability that all synergize until at level 12 you hit for infinite damage.

But there is no reason that all those dips and weird feats mean that the character is less of a real character or has less of a good backstory or is roleplayed with any less emphasis on story.

Anyway, can you work Sudden Leap into there, preferably with battlejump? At the very least, for straight fighter TWF take the Lion Tribe Warrior feat. Also, are you allowed flaws?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Martial Stance at level 12 (fighter bonus feat), it is the earliest you can get it due Assassin's stance requirement of IL 5 which you don't get until level 10 and craven also at 12 with your general feat slot.

[SowZ]

Yeah I know it is my opinion... Just like it is yours that an optimized character is better. Mechanically sure, but you don't have max ranks in craft brew beer and skill focus craft beer like my master dwarven brewsmith cleric of Hanseath with his tankard greataxe. That's right a greataxe that holds 2 pints of ale. lol

Also once again low magic so probably never ever get a feycraft weapon and certainly won't at level 1. Retraining is possible so if I find one cool but not going to count on getting one. The point of Island of blades is to get flanking bonuses and give flanking bonuses to other players. I will be working towards higher AC through Dex and dealing damage to tank.

It might be worth it to take assassins stance and craven for more damage while using island of blades but where would you put that in the feat progression to not make him take useless feats at weird levels so he maintains effectiveness.

Just drop weapon focus/Spec. Mechanically, +1 hit and +2 damage is going to be doing less for you than +19 damage at level 12 whenever you are flanking.

[ksbsnowowl]

Martial Stance at level 12 (fighter bonus feat), it is the earliest you can get it due Assassin's stance requirement of IL 5 which you don't get until level 10 and craven also at 12 with your general feat slot.
You can get Assassin's Stance at 10th level with a Fighter bonus feat. Then Craven at 12.

[tricktroller]

well since I can't get that +19 to damage at levels 1 that is why I am taking the feats, also its a low magic game so the feats are worth considerably more. Though taking assassins stance at level 10 is a good idea especially since I had no idea what to do with that feat. craven can be worked into 12th level possibly instead of greater weapon spec.

Oh and no flaws.

[SowZ]

well since I can't get that +19 to damage at levels 1 that is why I am taking the feats, also its a low magic game so the feats are worth considerably more. Though taking assassins stance at level 10 is a good idea especially since I had no idea what to do with that feat. craven can be worked into 12th level possibly instead of greater weapon spec.

Oh and no flaws.

As a human fighter, you should be getting three feats at level one. Maybe Lion Tribe Warrior? It let's you swing with both weapons on a charge when TWF if they are light weapons. It also has the option of letting you full attack with a one handed light weapon on a charge, which will be better once you hit level 11.

[tricktroller]

right and those feats were
martial study - shadow blade
Two weapon fighting
Weapon finesse

At 1st level I get two attacks a turn with a +3 to hit. I can get 3 attacks once per encounter and a possibility of more damage.

At second level I take Marital Stance - Island of blades so that at level 2 I give out more flanking bonuses and now have a +6 to hit when adjacent to an enemy my allies are.

At 3rd level I take shadow blade so that I get my dex as a bonus to damage on all my attack rolls as long as I sit in my stance. So I will have a +7 to hit with two attacks that deals 1d6 +6 on each hit.

[Telonius]

Assassin's Stance unfortunately does not qualify you for Craven. Craven requires "Sneak Attack class feature." Getting Sneak Attack temporarily through a stance doesn't count, any more than getting it through the Hunter's Eye spell would count.

Even if you can get the DM to overlook it (and many do), why not just take a level of Swordsage when you're high enough to start out with the stance? You're already clearly studying maneuvers, since you would've taken some Martial Study feats by that point anyway. You'd get Weapon Focus as a free feat, which you were going to take anyway. (Total nitpick: it gives you the "benefit of" the feat rather than the feat itself, but if your DM is ignoring the Craven prereqs he'll probably ignore that too). It would make sense both mechanically and for the fluff.

[SowZ]

right and those feats were
martial study - shadow blade
Two weapon fighting
Weapon finesse

At 1st level I get two attacks a turn with a +3 to hit. I can get 3 attacks once per encounter and a possibility of more damage.

At second level I take Marital Stance - Island of blades so that at level 2 I give out more flanking bonuses and now have a +6 to hit when adjacent to an enemy my allies are.

At 3rd level I take shadow blade so that I get my dex as a bonus to damage on all my attack rolls as long as I sit in my stance. So I will have a +7 to hit with two attacks that deals 1d6 +6 on each hit.

Well, could you push the martial study back a level? TWF already falls behind in damage and accuracy, if you can't swing both weapons on a full attack you will fall even farther behind. The advantage to a TWF Dex build is your AC and initiative will trump your two handed friends. But you don't want them to outdo you too much in damage output, I'm sure.


Assassin's Stance unfortunately does not qualify you for Craven. Craven requires "Sneak Attack class feature." Getting Sneak Attack temporarily through a stance doesn't count, any more than getting it through the Hunter's Eye spell would count.

Even if you can get the DM to overlook it (and many do), why not just take a level of Swordsage when you're high enough to start out with the stance? You're already clearly studying maneuvers, since you would've taken some Martial Study feats by that point anyway. You'd get Weapon Focus as a free feat, which you were going to take anyway. (Total nitpick: it gives you the "benefit of" the feat rather than the feat itself, but if your DM is ignoring the Craven prereqs he'll probably ignore that too). It would make sense both mechanically and for the fluff.

One of the "benefits" of WF is taking WS. :smallwink:

[tricktroller]

Yeah actually the DM would probably never allow craven, having looked it over, he doesn't own champions of ruin so he wouldn't let me use that feat. Also I doubt highly that he would allow for discipline focus to "count as" weapon focus for prereqs.

[tricktroller]

SO nothing else on this?

[Morbis Meh]

Personally I would ditch TWF in favour of a spiked chain: you get reach, finesse, tripping potential (Martial Study: Mighty throw) so you have a better to hit, will get more use out of combat reflexes and have a little battlefield control utility (I doubt you want to reduce your dex from 18 to pump Int to 13 so you can pick up combat expertise/improved trip)

[Barsoom]

Personally I would ditch TWF in favour of a spiked chain: you get reach, finesse, tripping potential (Martial Study: Mighty throw) so you have a better to hit, will get more use out of combat reflexes and have a little battlefield control utility (I doubt you want to reduce your dex from 18 to pump Int to 13 so you can pick up combat expertise/improved trip)

Heaven forbid, no, nobody spends precious points on INT 13 just so they can get Improved Trip. You take 2 levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian to nab it skipping the prereqs (and while at it, you also gain rage, or frenzy).

[Morbis Meh]

Heaven forbid, no, nobody spends precious points on INT 13 just so they can get Improved Trip. You take 2 levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian to nab it skipping the prereqs (and while at it, you also gain rage, or frenzy).

Oh I know all about getting it with two levels of Barb, I was just respecting the OP's wishes for not suggesting level dipping and from his perspective that +1 to hit from level one and on will not be looked kindly upon. If this we're me I would have just spared myself the pain and gone into swordsage.

[tricktroller]

I understand the benefits of a spiked chain but I really want to do the whole twf route for more damage from the dex and str to damage rolls.

If I was going to go sword sage I would go the unarmed route more than likely instead of any weapons.

[Morbis Meh]

I understand the benefits of a spiked chain but I really want to do the whole twf route for more damage from the dex and str to damage rolls.

If I was going to go sword sage I would go the unarmed route more than likely instead of any weapons.

Actually you would get more damage with a spiked chain if you took improved trip + knockdown since you can attempt a trip if you do 10 damage (really easy to do) then trip said creature and you get a second attack. This was only a suggestion since TWF is really really expensive goldwise and featwise. It is usually only worth it if you have bonus damage with it eg sneak attack damage. I wish you luck though, you may want to look at the Jack B Quick build for unique options... high sword, low axe is an interesting feat (I think that's what it's called)

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I was just wondering: You make a fighter, want it dex-based and then spend quite a few feats on obtaining initiator tricks from ToB. Now, I am not very familiar with the ToB, but wouldn't it be easier/better to just play one of the initiator classes that grant these stances and maneuvres?

[Spuddles]

As long as you realize that is only your OPINION, for you, and is not some universal truth. Those who disagree are not having "wrong bad fun."

Well I am glad you finally realized that, after spending half the first page attacking the OP for how he plays D&D....

[ksbsnowowl]

I was just wondering: You make a fighter, want it dex-based and then spend quite a few feats on obtaining initiator tricks from ToB. Now, I am not very familiar with the ToB, but wouldn't it be easier/better to just play one of the initiator classes that grant these stances and maneuvres?

But that would be munchkin wrongbadfun.

:smalltongue:

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[tricktroller]

Mostly because I like the idea of the fighter doing it. It would probably be much easier with warblade or something but I just wanted to see what could be done with a fighter.

The other reason is because I only have a passing understanding of tome of battle. Mostly I told the dm I wanted dex to damage and he told me about shadow blade.

And of course it would be munchkiny wrongbadfunnogood

[Spuddles]

It's too bad you can't build around your weapon. Crit fishing with an aptitude kukri could get you some decent damage output.

[ksbsnowowl]

Well I am glad you finally realized that, after spending half the first page attacking the OP for how he plays D&D....

I wasn't the one saying making an effective character meant that your character would only be a flat bunch of numbers with no personality. I never said he couldn't have fun or be effective with a "less than optimum" build.

I was merely forcing him to face the logical fallacy of his statement. That's all.

The character he initially posted isn't terrible, but there are other, potentially more effective ways to make the same archetype.

[Spuddles]

I wasn't the one saying making an effective character meant that your character would only be a flat bunch of numbers with no personality. I never said he couldn't have fun or be effective with a "less than optimum" build.

I was merely forcing him to face the logical fallacy of his statement. That's all.

The character he initially posted isn't terrible, but there are other, potentially more effective ways to make the same archetype.

How gracious and brave and not obnoxious at all of you!

[tricktroller]

yeah kukri crit fishing is disgusting on rogues with telling blow but like I said this is really the style I want dual wielding short swords or daggers, giving lots of bonuses to myself and my allies in combat and dealing consistent damage.

[Artillery]

Yeah I know it is my opinion... Just like it is yours that an optimized character is better. Mechanically sure, but you don't have max ranks in craft brew beer and skill focus craft beer like my master dwarven brewsmith cleric of Hanseath with his tankard greataxe. That's right a greataxe that holds 2 pints of ale. lol

Also once again low magic so probably never ever get a feycraft weapon and certainly won't at level 1. Retraining is possible so if I find one cool but not going to count on getting one. The point of Island of blades is to get flanking bonuses and give flanking bonuses to other players. I will be working towards higher AC through Dex and dealing damage to tank.

It might be worth it to take assassins stance and craven for more damage while using island of blades but where would you put that in the feat progression to not make him take useless feats at weird levels so he maintains effectiveness.
Have you thought about taking 2 lvls in Swordsage? If you take a 2 lvl dip at lvl 7 you would get +1 to initiative, free weapon focus for a set of weapons (in this case shadow hand weapons) and quite a few manuevers and a lvl 1 stance. At lvl 8 you could take assassin stance and would gain wisdom to AC.

A single lvl of Warblade is also not a bad choice because it gives you Weapon Aptitude, which lets you change you weapon specific feats to other weapons with 1 hour of work. Combine that with an Aptitude weapon on your enchantment

You could also change your weapon from dual shortswords to a one of the spiked chain variants that allow TWF. For instance if you are willing to splurge on EWP you get get a Balled Chain instead. Balled Chain is a spiked chain with morning stars on the ends, but can give up its reach be used for TWF. It also does 1d8 instead of 2d4. It does Bludgeoning and Piercing. Balled Chain is from Arms and Armor.

Chains are the great for AOO and dex fighters.

[DEMON]

Mostly because I like the idea of the fighter doing it. It would probably be much easier with warblade or something but I just wanted to see what could be done with a fighter.

While it's perfectly fine that your are set on the fighter - it's your character, after all. But you are seriously gimping yourself on purpose.
There are only so many fighter feats that are worth it and there are so many ToB maneuvers that help you in achieving your goal. You don't even have to overoptimize ToB, just going Tiger Claw (2WF focused) and Shadow Hand (DEX friendly) would be enough for you to excel at your niche.

DEX based 2WFer w/o Sneak Attack (or similar additional damage), ambush feats or any other DEX-friendly attack method and you can't even go with a Hit-and-Run fighter... This build is going to have a hard time regardless of DEX and STR to damage. Just saying.

But if the whole group is low-op and the campaing is build with respect to this fact, all is well, I guess.

[tricktroller]

tell you what guys just for fun optimize me as a twf dex based dps-er. Go nuts and I will bring it to the dm and see what he says.

Here are the only constraints for the optimization. It has to be a viable useful character at every level so no taking feats that only make you awesome at level 12, and the character needs to be a TWFer.

[tricktroller]

bump for greatness!

[SowZ]

Lvl. 1: Human Whirling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian. Feats: TWF, Battlejump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Lvl. 2: Swashbuckler
Lvl. 3-4: Swordsage
Lvl. 5-6: Fighter
Lvl. 7: Penetrating Strike Rogue
Lvl. 8+ Swordsage

Things to get- Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance, Leap Attack, Improved TWF, Shock Trooper, Craven, (Free feat slot. Grab what you want, GTWF if you think you can hit or Improved Init. or something fun.)

That is fairly optimized for a TWF who wants Dex to damage. But honestly, you seemed to want to do it with a fighter and I don't think this will jive with your group very much. Also, YOU may find it much harder to roleplay well with a min-maxed character, making that a truism for 'you' even if it isn't true all around. I bet you'd have more fun with your initial build.

[tricktroller]

Most of the times we all take sub standard feats and skills just for flavor and the DM usually adds more fun things in for us during the adventure. I guess in our group its less about the written information and more about just getitng together and roleplaying. We have actually been playing several classless dnd based systems that my brother in law has worked on. Most of them are a lot of fun and you get characters with cool abilities that you have to roleplay for.

This is an interesting build though, So what does it all do? I understand most of it but what is whirling frenzy or where is it? What is penetrating strike rogue? Battlejump? The rest of it is pretty straightforward.

[SowZ]

Most of the times we all take sub standard feats and skills just for flavor and the DM usually adds more fun things in for us during the adventure. I guess in our group its less about the written information and more about just getitng together and roleplaying. We have actually been playing several classless dnd based systems that my brother in law has worked on. Most of them are a lot of fun and you get characters with cool abilities that you have to roleplay for.

This is an interesting build though, So what does it all do? I understand most of it but what is whirling frenzy or where is it? What is penetrating strike rogue? Battlejump? The rest of it is pretty straightforward.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm

Here you go for the Frenzy Barbarian. So you start out with pounce which is awesome. Battlejump lets you double your melee damage after a big jump, (good STR, max jump ranks.) Leap Attack is going to let you Power Attack for a -1 to +2 damage trade even with a light one handed weapon, and you are jumping for Battlejump anyway.

Penetrating Strike means you trade away Trap Sense and you can add half Sneak Attack damage even on creatures immune to precision damage.

Since you have an open feat slot, you COULD be a Water Orc instead of a Human for the +4 Str, +2 Con. But the mental penalties on a Swordsage are meeehhh. A slight damage boost, though.

If your group frowns on heavy multiclassing, you can take out the Barbarian level and be fine. Just get Sudden Leap, which is from ToB and also gives you the equivalent of pounce after a jump check. The image is this Swordsage bounding around the battlefield, slashing away at foes for crazy damage.

A modified build that is almost as powerful but stinks of less cheese is Human:
Lvl 1-2: Swordsage
Lvl 3: Penetrating Strike Rogue
Lvl 4-5: Fighter
Lvl 6-12: Swordsage

Feats (In no particular order): Craven, Battlejump, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Improved TWF, TWF, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Shadow Blade.

This is all assuming flaws are allowed, by the way. Are they? If flaws aren't allowed, take out Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, since most DMs that don't allow flaws and such will probably see Shock Trooper and then find reason to call the whole build cheese. On that note, you could even drop two levels of Fighter and ditch Leap Attack/Power Attack, freeing up two levels for Swordsage or Rogue.

But this is basically a pure Swordsage build, and your original concept was to stick with Fighter. I encourage people to make their concept as viable as possible without straying from their concept.

You could go about fifty-fifty Swordsage/Fighter. Rely on Sudden Leap and Battlejump and Dual Wielding with Craven for your damage output? Grab just enough Swordsage levels to get Shadow Blade, Sudden Leap, Assassin's stance, and maybe a few more things you are interested in and then go straight Fighter. I'll bet you will have more fun and your group won't be raising their eyebrows at your character sheet the whole time, (which will also detract from your fun.)

[DEMON]

You need 3 levels of Rogue for Penetrating Strike...

[SowZ]

You need 3 levels of Rogue for Penetrating Strike...

This guy is correct, yeah, never mind. A 3 level dip in rogue is nice, though. It ends on an odd level and you get Evasion.

[DEMON]

This guy is correct, yeah, never mind. A 3 level dip in rogue is nice, though. It ends on an odd level and you get Evasion.

Even 4 levels might be worth it. Grab the ACF from PHB2, sacrifice 1 instance of SA in a full attack routine to improve the chance of your iterative attacks hitting :smalltongue:

Hit and Run Fighter 4 / Rogue 4 / Warblade or Swordsage 12
Granted you don't get the 9th level Maneuvers, but you weren't getting those with a Fighter build either.
ACFs: Hit-and-Run Tactics, Resolute, Penetrating Strike, Disruptive Attack
2x kukri, Improved Critical, Blood in the Water stance for some extra oomph...

Edit: If you won't miss the Fighter bonus feat, you can go Fighter 2 / Rogue 4 / Initiator 14 and get those 9th level maneuvers after all.