Malack vs. Durkon. Fight! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-26, 11:04 AM

Starting a thread to discuss how the fight that might break out between Malack and Durkon immediately after strip #871 could happen.

There might be no fight, of course. I’m hoping not to get derailed into a discussion of how likely a fight is.

Some things to consider:

Durkon has expended many of his medium- and high-level spell slots already. Plane Shift, Find the Path, Extended True Seeing, Resurrection, Speak with Dead, True Seeing, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Heal, Meld with Stone, Holy Word, Mass Death Ward, and assorted Cure Wounds, mostly unspecific and off-panel.

We also know that two of Durkon’s high-level spells remaining are Resurrection and Planar Ally: Neither of them useful in a fight, but convertable in a pinch to Cure Wounds spells, which can heal Durkon or harm Malack. I understand one of his domains to be Good, which gives him access to spells that would be effective against just about any vampire--unless the vampire is Lawful Neutral, as some suggest Malack might be.

Durkon can turn undead; Malack has turn resistance and can bolster himself.

We know Malack has expended a few spells: Control Winds, Flame Strike, Hold Person, and Protection from Daylight. His domains are likely to be Death and Destruction. He has vampiric powers (regeneration, level drain, gaseous and animal forms, dominating gaze, etc) and vampiric weaknesses (can’t cross running water, can’t enter without permission, recoils from holy symbols, etc.). Being a vampire also gives him bonus feats such as Improved Initiative. He is at full hit points, plus at least 10 temporary hit points from draining Belkar.

Both have allies in the area. Scruffy is present and active, and though the little cat is apparently unable to penetrate the vampire’s damage resistance, he might succeed on a trip attempt or other combat maneuver. Belkar is present, though held and drained of both levels and constitution. He might overcome the spell on his own, or Durkon might dispel (magic or evil) it. V might stumble in, as might the rest of the Order of the Stick or the Linear Guild, and either cleric might hail their companions. Advantage: Durkon here.

Durkon’s most common combat tactic is to cast Thor’s Might and start bashing heads. Malack apparently prepares a Harm plus Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds on a regular basis.

Durkon will either try to drive Malack off or try to kill him. Malack likely wants to make Durkon a vampire.

Were I Malack, I’d likely start the match with a Shatter (Quickened Shatter, even) on Durkon’s Holy Symbol. If Belkar got back in the fight, I’d use my dominating gaze on him. I’d dispel Durkon’s death ward and rely on my level drain, casting spells only when absolutely necessary.

Were I Durkon...wow, Durkon’s in trouble. I’d scream bloody murder and fight defensively, hoping the rest of the Order made it there in time to save me.

King of Nowhere

2013-02-26, 12:45 PM

though call. both are clerics.
That means that a save or die spell is unlikely to succeed (high saves), and that they both can heal themselves more than the opponent can damage them. specifically, durkon has spontaneous casting for healing spells, and healing spells harm undead as well as heal him. malack almost certainly has spontaneous casting for inflict wounds spells, that also heal him. so I picture them healing/harming each other until they run out of spells.
Of course, that would be quite unspectacular, so I think rich will play it different. IF they come to a fight at all.

sam79

2013-02-26, 01:00 PM

How much anti-undead kit can we assume a Good cleric to have? Is he likely to be packing garlic? (I'd guess not, as Malack would have been repelled by it before, when they were having tea, researching etc) Holy water? Don't know how effective that is under D+D rules. Decent anti-undead spells that will at least restrain Malack and allow Durkon to bring Belkar back into play (and/or get help from the rest of the Order)?

GSFB

2013-02-26, 02:47 PM

Can Durkon dispel magic? That would remove the sunlight protection (not sure if that helps right here, but are there any windows, airshafts, etc that would make Malack have to flee to safety?) and also remove the hold spell on Belkar.

Incom

2013-02-26, 02:54 PM

Durkon's best option in such a fight would be to stall.

I'm not convinced Malack actually WANTS to fight Durkon, though, otherwise he'd have done so already. He almost certainly has at least one Harm+QIMW combo prepared (possibly more than one just in case somebody makes a save); Durkon could have reasonably gotten the same idea (he saw Malack do it to Nale after all) and do a Heal+QCMW. The combo, assuming both saves are made (because clerics are good at saves), would do 75+(2d8+10)/2, which works out to 81-88 damage if I'm doing the math correctly. Clerics have d8 hit dice; vampire HD is d12 but I don't have the template version handy so it could be different.

So if it comes to the Nale-killer combo, Malack almost certainly wouldn't die from the combo; Durkon possibly could, but Malack would have to waste a round dispelling Death Ward in order for it to work, so that evens things out a bit.

All that for just one potential course of action.

Where was I going with this?

Anyway, it's almost certain somebody else is going to show up and interrupt the fight before either cleric can bust the other's defenses. Probably V. I have no clue how the elf would change things.

:vaarsuvius: Durkon! I killed everyone! Please take my life!
:malack: You killed all those people? As a cleric of Nergal, I am in awe.
:belkar: Rock on, elf buddy!
:durkon: I cannae believe this.

Or

:vaarsuvius: Durkon! I killed the Draketooth clan with Familicide! Please take my life!
:malack: Wait, you killed my friend's wife? Die!
*scuffle*

Or

:vaarsuvius: Durkon! I killed the Draketooth clan with Familicide! Please take my life!
:malack: *shrug* Death isn't that big of a deal, you know. Happens all the time 'round these parts. Heck, Tarquin's wife Penelope was killed by a bolt from the--
:vaarsuvius: GAAAH! *flees*
:malack: ...Huh.

(This post mourns the lack of a Malack emote.)

And that's assuming it's Vaarsuvius and only Vaarsuvius that shows up, or that blurting the truth out is V's first course of action, or a bajillion other things.

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-26, 03:01 PM

Can Durkon dispel magic?

He's cast the spell once today already--well, fizzled it. He might have prepared it more than once.

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-26, 03:23 PM

(Malack) almost certainly has at least one Harm+QIMW combo prepared (possibly more than one just in case somebody makes a save); Durkon could have reasonably gotten the same idea (he saw Malack do it to Nale after all) and do a Heal+QCMW.

Durkon has cast three 6th-level spells today already, and still has Planar Ally memorized. That seems to rule out him having a combo of two 6th-level spells still in his pocket: his wisdom would have to be godlike, or he’d have to be high enough level to cast 8th level spells. A metamagic rod of quicken or extend spell would also make it possible.

I suspect he’s down to one 7th level spell, Resurrection, and two 6th level spells, Planar Ally and one other, probably Heal. He should be well stocked with 5th-levels, including his signature Thor’s Might.

Winter

2013-02-26, 04:21 PM

I think "jump at Durkon, bite him, drain him" is a pretty decent strategy for any vampire. :smalltongue:

Flame of Anor

2013-02-26, 04:43 PM

I think "jump at Durkon, bite him, drain him" is a pretty decent strategy for any vampire. :smalltongue:

Only if Durkon was stupid enough to cast Mass Death Ward only on Belkar and not on himself.

snikrept

2013-02-26, 04:50 PM

Vampire Durkon could neatly solve the posthumous return to Dwarfland prophecy. Under his own power, even:smallbiggrin:

Flame of Anor

2013-02-26, 04:54 PM

Vampire Durkon could neatly solve the posthumous return to Dwarfland prophecy. Under his own power, even:smallbiggrin:

:eek:

That had better not be how it works out.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-26, 04:58 PM

I think the return of Vampire Durkon would be the most interesting way this could all work out. :smallbiggrin:

ScubaGoomba

2013-02-26, 05:01 PM

If he has a way to restrain Malack, can't he cast Resurrection on Malack?

Wait, nevermind. I'm dumb and don't read entire rules before I post.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-26, 05:03 PM

Only if he somehow destroys him first. Malack being a vampire, that is rather difficult.

It would also be an interesting outcome to all of this too, though, and explain why Belkar is going to stay dead despite enough stuff for Resurrection being on hand right now.

hoff

2013-02-26, 05:08 PM

One of them will use a save or lose spell and the target will not win the save ending the battle. Who is going to win though is based on plot and plot alone. My guess goes to Malack because he might not kill durkon (turn him instead?), while Durkon would most definitely kill Malack. Although Malack might get away with all the vampire gas form and everything even if he loses.

What I don't see is either being destroyed and/or killed.

The only other possible option is for other party members to interfer, but I find this unlikely.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-26, 05:10 PM

I'm happy with any outcome that doesn't result in one less character for the strip.:smallsmile:

KillianHawkeye

2013-02-26, 05:26 PM

Scruffy is present and active, and though the little cat is apparently unable to penetrate the vampire’s damage resistance, he might succeed on a trip attempt or other combat maneuver.

Hold on, there. Mister Scruffy is a house cat. He is Tiny size, and likely has a Strength score of about 3 (possibly higher if he's getting a bonus from being Belkar's animal companion). Those are some pretty large penalties. Contrasting with Malack, who is Medium size and at least gets a hefty Strength bonus from the vampire template.

I think Mister Scruffy's only viable action in this scenario is as motivation for Belkar.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-26, 05:27 PM

Malack also appears to not be in contact with the ground. Trip probably wouldn't work.

Hawk7915

2013-02-26, 06:42 PM

Durkon has a solid edge here, since Mass Death Ward negates the vast majority of Malack's offensive magic and his Vampiric draining slam, and Durkon is a Dwarf Cleric (thus, good Fort and Will, good Con and Wisdom, and a racial bonus to saves versus spells) to handle the rest. Those benefits mean that even a Greater Dispel Magic isn't game over for our favorite dwarf. That being said, vampirism grants some powerful bonuses to Strength and Dexterity, plus DR and Fast Healing. If Malack augments all of that with a few summons to flank with, or a few buff spells like Divine Might or Divine Favor, Durkon will likely be outmatched in a knock-down, drag-out fight, even with Thor's Might. I'd also forgot how many spells Durkon has already expended: Heal Malack to death isn't a solid gameplan.

I think Durkon's best bet is to fire off a few positive energy spells, play defensive, and retreat back to either get support from the Order or use a Break Enchantment/Protection from Evil on Belkar.

Incom

2013-02-26, 06:44 PM

You guys clearly have never seen the tripping abilities of a real world housecat :smallbiggrin:

re:

I suspect he’s down to one 7th level spell, Resurrection, and two 6th level spells, Planar Ally and one other, probably Heal.

If Durkon has Heal, wouldn't QCMW fall under spontaneous casting? Or does that not work with metamagic? Or alternatively, could he use QCLW instead? I think that still works.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-26, 06:46 PM

Malack's full capabilities are also something of a wildcard: he could have pretty much anything stashed on his person.

Kish

2013-02-26, 06:49 PM

If Durkon has Heal, wouldn't QCMW fall under spontaneous casting? Or does that not work with metamagic? Or alternatively, could he use QCLW instead? I think that still works.
Yes, he could spontaneous cast a quickened Cure spell--by the standard rules for spontaneous casting of metamagiced spells, in other words, casting the spell would become a full-round action.

The value of being able to cast a quickened spell as a full-round action, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

mawexzon

2013-02-26, 06:50 PM

Mmm... If it ends in a Vampire Durkon outcome then that would cause a lot of character development, had Belkar been made Vampire, he would be pretty much the same, character-wise.

Felyndiira

2013-02-26, 06:51 PM

A lot of it depends on what other level 4-5 spells Durkon has prepared. Heal, in this case, would not do much - Malack can harm himself and heal back far more damage than heal could inflict. Turn is also not likely to work unless if Durkon invested in a +4 turning item or something of that order with Malack's turn resistance and bolstering.

If I were Durkon, I would have some defensive spells (like stone wall) prepared, cast it to try to stall Malack, and use the chance to get Belkar away and back to the rest of the party. Of course, Durkon never seems to prepare spells like that, so I guess the best option would just be to tank Malack as much as possible (with heal and cure spells) and run back.

GSFB

2013-02-26, 07:57 PM

Of course, all the above is based on it just being Durkon v Malack. Durkon could still get Belkar into the fight one way or another, and with Belkar stabbing Malack, it will be very hard for Malack to maintain concentration for spells. Malack might have very powerful physical attacks, but Durkon is well armored and has a lot of HP. And if Durkon can stay alive a few rounds, the rest of the Order will probably show up. Then there is the V factor...

So I remain firm that Durkon's best strategy is to revive Belkar, then start throwing the healing magic around while Belkar harries Malack, and wait for the cavalry to arrive.

vrellum

2013-02-26, 08:03 PM

Since I want Durkon to win I hope Malack opens up with harm + quickened cause wounds. It'd be a wasted round unless Durkon didn't include himself in the mass death ward spell. Would have been nice to include Malack if possible... However, Malack seems to be pretty smart, so I doubt that is his strategy.

Lamech

2013-02-26, 08:06 PM

Let see options:
Heal. It stands a good chance of insta-popping a vamp of equal level if he flubs the save. It won't work so well if Malack is a higher level or worse, was created by a vamp with corpsecrafter or in a desecrated area. Also I think Malack sucked Belkars blood at least once and energy drained drained him twice. That's 25 or 35 temp hit points depending on vamp lord status. Worse case scenario Malack has a ring of protection from positive energy.

Turn undead: Probably a waste of an action.

Repel with Holy Symbol: Nice, but it will do nothing to help Belkar. Worse Malack can still used any ranged attack he has including his dominate gaze.

Thor smash! Getting into a fight with someone who is stronger, with better physical stats... plus who probably has a better array of spells. Maybe, but it would not be good.

Run! Malack is apparently able to fly right now so I think he'll just repeatedly slam Durkon.

I think fighting and yelling for help is probably the best choice right now. Maybe try a heal if Malack gets low.

Snails

2013-02-26, 08:12 PM

Opening move for Durkon should be to Remove Paralysis Belkar.

At that point, it is probably non-obvious to Malack that he will prevail, so it should be easier to get him to retreat.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-26, 08:20 PM

Malack is going to completely devastate Durkon.

It'll be as one sided a fight as it would be if Tarquin took on Roy in a duel.

urandom

2013-02-26, 08:49 PM

If Durkon has another holy word he might be in good shape. The +8 LA on vampires will make malack very vulnerable since holy word is based on HD. Plus Durkon could still use it in a grapple - something that Malack may well try (counting on his vampire physical advantages).

luagha

2013-02-26, 09:21 PM

Mister Scruffy is Belkar's animal companion. Assuming Belkar is at least 12 levels of ranger, that gives him 9 levels of advancement as a druid animal off of the druid chart. That's a nice BAB and a good list of feats, at least one of which is bound to be Weapon Finesse so he can go off Dex instead of Strength for hitting. Damage not so much, which is why people suggest various special combat maneuvers. We've already seen Scruffy grapple a spellcaster to prevent casting.

As for Malack vs. Durkon, Malack knows full well that Durkon is immune to a bunch of negative energy stuff right now. His two best tactics are a targeted dispel in the hopes of taking out the Mass Death Ward, or anything like Flame Strike that requires a Dex save and will do half damage because Durkon generally doesn't go around casting Protection from Fire randomly even though it's a pretty standard thing.

Durkon's options are similar except he has bigger problems. Malack is an NPC who has already been shown to cast preperatory spells like Protection from Daylight. He might have a bunch of stuff already up and ready, including something like protection from positive energy.

After a round of combat, Mass Cure Light Wounds would be smart - heals him and Belkar, and reveals if Malack is vulnerable.

I personally think that physically, Durkon has the edge - Malack is a spellcasting type cleric who gets by fighting-wise because he's a vampire (and he missed a touch attack on Nale) while Durkon is a fighting-type cleric. Any round where he can fight normally or under Thor's Might while Malack does something else is a win for Durkon.

Malack also probably wants to turn Durkon into a vampire, so he's somewhat limited in what spells he can use. No disintegrations.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-26, 09:33 PM

We've already seen Scruffy grapple a spellcaster to prevent casting.

Grapple works off strength. Doesn't have a hope of working.

I personally think that physically, Durkon has the edge - Malack is a spellcasting type cleric who gets by fighting-wise because he's a vampire (and he missed a touch attack on Nale) while Durkon is a fighting-type cleric. Any round where he can fight normally or under Thor's Might while Malack does something else is a win for Durkon.

I wouldn't be too quick to rule that Malack is a feeble spellcasting cleric. I admit I thought that myself right up until the vampire reveal but after that you have to consider that he has a +8 racial bonus to str (lizardman + vampire).

I revised my opinion and now firmly believe that Malack is completely capable of tearing someone's head off with his bare hands if the situation calls for it, he just didn't have a need to display it before. Malack could easily have naturally high dex and str before they're augmented by vampire bonus stats. I think Durkon is outmatched in just about every way possible here.

GSFB

2013-02-27, 03:13 AM

Feddlefew

2013-02-27, 04:09 AM

Flame of Anor

2013-02-27, 05:15 AM

Malack is going to completely devastate Durkon.

It'll be as one sided a fight as it would be if Tarquin took on Roy in a duel.

I'd be surprised if Durkon managed to be as unoptimized as Roy.

Mr.Rictus

2013-02-27, 05:40 AM

I'd be surprised if Durkon managed to be as unoptimized as Roy.

It's not about optimisation, it's about scenaristic logic. Tarquin was strong enough to engage without being worried, beat up the Order of the Stick single-handedly and survive (including Durkon).
Tarquin and Malack are long-time companions and speak to each other as equals. In a fair fight, Durkon is doomed, though he'll probably last longer than Belkar (probably not much though). His only hope is that this isn't a fair fight, as Durkon's allies are a lot closer to the battle than the LG. (you name it, Belkar, V, surprise "we finished disarming the door" Roy, Elan and Haley attack...).

Feddlefew

2013-02-27, 05:47 AM

Malack is a vampire of unknown age, although I think the way he speaks might be a hint that he's been "alive" for a long time. What are the odds that he's an epic level cleric?

luc258

2013-02-27, 06:51 AM

I would like to chime in on this discussion and state that it is unreasonable to assume Malack is equal to Durkon, he is way stronger.
The Giant has gone out of his way, in fact triggering a discussion about it, how much stronger Tarquin is than almost the rest of the order combined.
Malack was his adventuring companion, he is most likely of similar level, above the order average by quite a bit. The reasonable thing is that Malack is of similar power as Tarquin, not below at Order / Nale / Sabine level.
Adding that Malack was able to help Durkon successfully research a spell, in a teacher - student kind of way, as the red corrections on the scroll showed, is just the icing on the cake of this argument.
Durkon himself is as outmatched as Roy would be vs. Tarquin one on one. I'm sure The Giant will turn the match into something interesting, but I don't think this can happen in a duel, Durkon will get help of some kind, e.g. Belkar, maybe Vaarsuvius, maybe Xykon spoils the whole party, who knows.

Coat

2013-02-27, 07:48 AM

Malack is flying. Basic vampire only gets spider climb or flight in gaseous form, Vampire Lords get always-on flight 50'. Or it could have been the same spell that was allowing him to fly earlier, outside the pyramid. Still nothing certain, but circumstantial evidence is accumulating... If he is a Vampire Lord, it's hard to see any good outcome for Durkon.

Vampires get to call bat or rat swarms, or packs of wolves, or change shape to a bat, dire bat, wolf or dire wolf. But it also says "If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power." Malack is a lizardfolk, and we're in a desert. Who knows what could turn up?*

Battles of attrition would work very well for Malack: if the battle ever turns in Durkon's favour, all he needs to do is shapeshift or gaseous form, and then pull back until his (un)natural regeneration puts him back to full health. Every wound Durkon heals uses up a spell slot. But then each round brings the risk of someone else from the order turning up.

Even if Durkon somehow manages to take him down to 0hp, Malack just turns into a cloud of mist, and has to reach a coffin within 2 hours (9 miles). Depending on whether he still has protection from daylight, and whether the Linear guild stashed a coffin anywhere nearby, that may or may not be difficult. If he's a vampire lord, he gets 24 hours (I think?) and 108 miles, making him effectively unkillable (and giving Team Tarquin pretty much unbeatable protection against TPK).

Why would Malack want to turn Durkon into a vampire? Durkon is interesting to talk to because he's another independent perspective on the challenges of being a high-ranking priest. Count Durkon is unlikely to still be a priest, controlled Count Durkon is not independent, and free-willed Count Durkon is unlikely to have much constructive to say. I think Malack's aim here is murder, pure and simple, in pursuit of the end game. Count Belkar would make a pretty toy. Count Durkon, not so much.

* Snakes? Why did it have to be snakes?

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-27, 08:05 AM

As of today's strip, it seems like Malack's chosen tactic seems to be grapple and con drain the dwarf. Which is an excellent choice, if the Death Ward doesn't protect against con drain, which it shouldn't by 3.5 rules. Seems like Durkon's low Knowledge: Religion--not knowing that a vampire's blood drinking is con drain instead of level drain--might be the death of him. Malack, who helped him research the spell, would know its limitations.

Grapple also forces Durkon to make concentration checks to cast, and Durkon is always blowing concentration checks. Seriously, buy combat casting, Durkon. Malack can even make an AoO whenever Durkon casts.

Incidentally, today's strip makes me believe I've done Malack a disservice, that before now he's never considered making his friend Durkon into his vampire thrall.

He's totes gonna do it, though.

Winter

2013-02-27, 08:43 AM

Chantelune

2013-02-27, 08:57 AM

I will bet Haley and Roy are there within 3 rounds, though. I doubt Malack can kill Durkon in 2 rounds or less. Malack's best option if he is smart - and we have reason to believe he is - is to do something to cause general mayhem, then flee so he can regroup with the rest of LG. He will be destroyed if he is still there when the cavalry comes. Remember, Roy's sword does extra damage to undead AND he has the new spellcaster attacking feat he learned while in Heaven.

Can Malack grab Belkar and cast Word of Recall? Does Belkar (presumably unconscious now?) get a save?

Not sure Haley and Roy will be there anytime soon. They were busy removing traps on the big door and until Haley finished the top part, she'll need Roy to give her a lift. And Roy sending Durkon alone to check on Belkar might mean he's not too worried about them both. He could send Elan, of course, but it might not be that much of an aid.

And it might get more than a few rounds (6s each) for them to worry about Durkon and Belkar not coming back. You'd usually start to worry after several minutes, considering the time needed to catch up to the halfling, then going back to them with maybe a few obstacles to best. By the time they decide something's off, then found Durkon, the fight might be close to the end, if not finished already.

I think Durkon casts Mass Death Ward on himself too. When you mess with a vampire's meal, even if he's your friend, you protect yourself as well, just to be safe. If not, then Durkon is really stupid and would deserves whatever fate Malack has in mind for him. :smallannoyed:

pendell

2013-02-27, 09:08 AM

Hmmm.... If this were a straight 1v1 , I'd put my money on Malack. Cleric vs. Cleric with vampire powers? Bet on the vampire.

However, that hold person can't last forever. I suspect Durkon can at least hold off Malack long enough either for Belkar to rejoin the battle, or for Vaarsuvius to arrive.

So no bet from me at this time. Too many variables.

Wait: I will bit 2 draws from a deck of many things that Malack does NOT succeed in killing and vamping both Belkar and Durkon. Even though both are fated to die it's unlikely we'd lose them both at once.

Still... I may make this request in the Arts & Crafts thread: A Vampire OOTS proceeding through the dungeon. Presumably Haley would once again look like her teenage self, Roy would look as he did in that one panel when Haley was speculating on the fate of his corpse, Belkar would look like that one avatar someone did good work on, and so forth.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 09:12 AM

Order of the Fang.

sam79

2013-02-27, 09:13 AM

I think Durkon is not protected by Mass Death Ward. Look at how the encounter started: Durkon was standing very far away. Unless MDW has a unusually far reach between two possible targets (check existing spells, they all require the targets to be relatively close to each other) or covers a very unusually large area, Durkon only got Belkar, not himself.

Possible, but then why wouldn't Durkon have 1) cast Death Ward just on Belkar (simple answer: he'd only prepared the Mass version), or 2) moved a bit closer so that both he and the halfling were in range before casting?

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 09:24 AM

sam79

2013-02-27, 09:30 AM

So what would people's tactics be as Malack in this fight considering that he appears to have won initiative? I say:

Round 1: Divine Power to give me a ludicrous strength bonus when combined with vampire + lizardman str bonuses.

Round 2+: Grapple, pin, and suck him dry.

I might skip the buff at round 1 and go for the grapple straight away. He's probably strong enough. If he doesn't, wouldn't Durkon be able to keep him out of melee range with his holy symbol/turn udead?

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-27, 09:34 AM

A reminder that Belkar breaking free of the Hold spell is not necessarily good news for Durkon. Malack's vampiric domininating gaze could make Belkar his slave just as V's Dominate Person made the kobold ranger hirs.

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-27, 09:37 AM

So what would people's tactics be as Malack in this fight considering that he appears to have won initiative?

Round 1: Quickened Shatter on Durkon's holy symbol, grapple.

Round 2+: Con drain, quickened buffs.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 09:48 AM

I might skip the buff at round 1 and go for the grapple straight away. He's probably strong enough. If he doesn't, wouldn't Durkon be able to keep him out of melee range with his holy symbol/turn udead?

Maybe, but I'd be willing to take a gamble that Durkon doesn't know exactly in how much trouble he's in here and wastes at least one round on something more offensively minded. Also if he chooses to hold Malack at bay then Malack can just turn around and drain Belkar and I doubt Durkon is going to let that happen.

sam79

2013-02-27, 10:10 AM

Maybe, but I'd be willing to take a gamble that Durkon doesn't know exactly in how much trouble he's in here and wastes at least one round on something more offensively minded. Also if he chooses to hold Malack at bay then Malack can just turn around and drain Belkar and I doubt Durkon is going to let that happen.

Hmm, that's true. I'm not really good on the D+D rules, but would it be possible for Durkon to drive Malack back away from both himself and Belkar, in order to keep the vamp at bay until Hold Person runs out?

Feddlefew

2013-02-27, 10:12 AM

Malack was planing on fighting, and possibly killing, Durkon by himself. Malack has also had at least two days to prepare and plan, because Tarquin has been wearing the Nope! mask under his helmet for that long.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 10:22 AM

Hmm, that's true. I'm not really good on the D+D rules, but would it be possible for Durkon to drive Malack back away from both himself and Belkar, in order to keep the vamp at bay until Hold Person runs out?

Well Malack is between him and Belkar. Durkon would have to run past to get close enough to be able to keep him away by brandishing his holy symbol. That would provoke an AoO which Malack could just use to try to immediately start grappling him anyway.

Turn Undead has very little chance of working on Malack either.

Chantelune

2013-02-27, 10:49 AM

Remember that even if hold person fades out or is dispelled, Belkar was drained by Malack already and we don't really know how many rounds went by before Durkon's arrival. Belkar might have been severly impaired already and not be much help in this fight.

And Malack might want to dispel the mass death ward on Durkon soon. Considering he was the one who taught him that spell (or at least helped him adapting it), he would probably have came with some way to work around.

Winter

2013-02-27, 10:56 AM

Possible, but then why wouldn't Durkon have 1) cast Death Ward just on Belkar (simple answer: he'd only prepared the Mass version), or 2) moved a bit closer so that both he and the halfling were in range before casting?

I do not understand 1).
2) is simple to answer: He saw what was going on and cast the spell. Only Belkar is within range.

Look at how Durkon stands in the current comic: He just said there was a fight and is still surprised the attack comes. Durkon is simply naive and did not plan at all.

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 11:21 AM

With a DC of 15-17 on the Hold Person, Belkar getting maybe a +2 on Will Checks, Belkar has a decent shot of breaking Hold Person each round. Depending on where power of the plot wants to go, he could be up now, if they stood around talking long enough for him to make a check.

Personally, I'd give him a circumstance bonus to the Will Check because he has "someone worth fighting for." I have a feeling that really is going to give him a boost at some point soon.

Joe the Rat

2013-02-27, 11:22 AM

Order of the Fang.
Order of the Stake

Fitzclowningham

2013-02-27, 11:34 AM

If D is 15th level, doesn't he have 2 unused 8th level spell slots? Unfortunately, nothing on the list looks very useful.

sam79

2013-02-27, 12:35 PM

I do not understand 1).

Under 1), I merely suggested that, if Belkar was the only person in range, Durkon would have been better advised to just use 'Death Ward' and not 'Mass Death Ward'. Why waste the Mass version on a single target?

I then answered my own suggestion, by saying that he may not have had the non-mass version prepared.

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-27, 12:49 PM

If D is 15th level, doesn't he have 2 unused 8th level spell slots?

Only if his wisdom is 18 or above.

If Mass Death Ward is an 8th level spell, that's good evidence for Durkon being level 15 or above and his Wisdom being at least 18. (Otherwise, the evidence for Durkon being 15th level is the number of 'thonks' Belkar makes in one comic panel :smallsigh:.) There's been some suggestion it's level 7 in the OOtSverse, though.

Chantelune

2013-02-27, 12:54 PM

Only if his wisdom is 18 or above.

If Mass Death Ward is an 8th level spell, that's good evidence for Durkon being level 15 or above and his Wisdom being at least 18. (Otherwise, the evidence for Durkon being 15th level is the number of 'thonks' Belkar makes in one comic panel :smallsigh:.) There's been some suggestion it's level 7 in the OOtSverse, though.

If I remember correctly, the Giant stated that he didn't remember that the spell existed already when he made it, so it's an homebrew version at lvl 7, yes.

Mmmh, not familiar with Thor's domain, but I guess Sun is not part of it ? Because if he has acces to 8th slot, a dispel followed by a sunburst would do wonder for Durkon here. :smallbiggrin:

Might be V's actions if she walks in the fight and have a few 8th spells available and ready, but would she have prepared sunburst ? I don't think the order expect team evil at this point and they were more concerned about illusions than undead, so I'd say doubtfull.

stevem

2013-02-27, 01:55 PM

Remember that even if hold person fades out or is dispelled, Belkar was drained by Malack already and we don't really know how many rounds went by before Durkon's arrival. Belkar might have been severly impaired already and not be much help in this fight.

Is it possible that Belkar has already had his CON drained to 0? With the Hold Person spell, it's hard to say. And it may be why Malack was so quick to put him down; he was done eating.

Conversely, Malack offered to leave Belkar alone, claiming to not know they were friends. However that statement contradicts this strip at the last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0818.html) and this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) first and second panel. It's pretty clear that Malack knew Belkar and Durkon were on the same team.

So perhaps Malack was playing a double game by engaging Durkon in conversation: 1) attempt to avoid battling Durkon, his new found "friend"; and, 2) give Belkar, his new child, time to arise as an undead without being staked by Durkon.

Just a theory.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 01:57 PM

Same team =/= friend.

Kish

2013-02-27, 02:15 PM

Is it possible that Belkar has already had his CON drained to 0?
No X's in his eyes makes it unlikely.

I will be very surprised if Durkon's Wisdom isn't in its 20s. Should it turn out that it is not, I will be less surprised if that's "because it's 30+" than if it's "because it's 19-."

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 02:18 PM

No X's in his eyes makes it unlikely.

I will be very surprised if Durkon's Wisdom isn't in its 20s. Should it turn out that it is not, I will be less surprised if that's "because it's 30+" than if it's "because it's 19-."

Given the level of unoptimisation and generally poor choices in this universe, I would be stumped to find Durkon had 30 or above Wisdom.

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 03:22 PM

Uh oh! Durkon popped the Heal we expected. And it looks like Malack's Dispell Magic failed. Doesn't look like Malack went down quite yet, but I'd definitely guess that Durkon's got him on the ropes with that last hit.

However, I also think Durkon is purposefully playing it cool and bringing out the big guns early to try to get Malack to run because he doesn't have a ton of good spells left.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:29 PM

luc258

2013-02-27, 03:33 PM

I guess then my theory that Malack was higher level than Durkon is bogus.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:37 PM

We still don't have much of a clear indication of his level, unfortunately.

Tragak

2013-02-27, 03:39 PM

I guess then my theory that Malack was higher level than Durkon is bogus.
Well, in your defense, his ECL is CERTAINLY higher, what with being a vampire who has been around longer than Nale, so he's still more powerful than Durkon as a whole.

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 03:41 PM

Do we have any indication of what Thor's Lightning can do? If it is like Lightning Bolt, then 10d6 + 150 may well be all Malack can handle, even if he is significantly higher level.

Edit: My mistake, failed to consider saving throws. Even so, he may be in trouble.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 03:43 PM

If Malack's still alive, he just needs to hang back out of range; use an inflict wounds on himself if such a thing is possible. Then things go back to square one if no-one can make any substantial interventions.

We know Malack has Harm and that he hasn't even cast it yet today. One Harm will bring him back up to full hp, no problem.

I am still predicting that Malack kicks Durkon's ass eventually, though Durkon's holding up better than I was expecting.

Edit - and Heal can't kill people. At most it can reduce undead to 1 hp.

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 03:47 PM

Heal can't kill people. At most it can reduce undead to 1 hp.

For real?! Oh, yea, you're quite right. Well that means Malack is definitely making a come back, unless Belkar stabs him in the back right... now!

Chantelune

2013-02-27, 03:51 PM

Belkar or Mr Scruffy. ^^ Well, not sure if Scruffy's claws can pass Malack's resistance, but on a lucky hit, if Malack is down to his last HP, might do the trick.

An interesting fight, in any case. :smallamused:

MaximKat

2013-02-27, 04:08 PM

What are the chances that Malack is now at 1hp and the conveniently mentioned in the 4th panel kitty is going to bite his tail?

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 04:10 PM

What are the chances that Malack is now at 1hp and the conveniently mentioned in the 4th panel kitty is going to bite his tail?

63%, according to very legitimate and unquestionable sources.

Olinser

2013-02-27, 04:19 PM

Tragak

2013-02-27, 04:23 PM

Olinser

2013-02-27, 04:23 PM

If I remember correctly, the Giant stated that he didn't remember that the spell existed already when he made it, so it's an homebrew version at lvl 7, yes.

Mmmh, not familiar with Thor's domain, but I guess Sun is not part of it ? Because if he has acces to 8th slot, a dispel followed by a sunburst would do wonder for Durkon here. :smallbiggrin:

Might be V's actions if she walks in the fight and have a few 8th spells available and ready, but would she have prepared sunburst ? I don't think the order expect team evil at this point and they were more concerned about illusions than undead, so I'd say doubtfull.

Maybe - but V was running from that mummy and was definitely meditating underground - he may have changed his spells out for more undead-focused combat. Did we ever get a clear indication of how long a time period it has been since he was tossed in that pit?

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 04:24 PM

Durkon just made a MAJOR blunder.

He burned Heal - when Malack has only burned a couple moderate level spells.

One Harm is all it is going to take to wipe out all the damage Durkon just did - and if they go about trading spells, Malack is going to come out on top as the better combatant without spells.

Honestly - I'm kind of surprised that neither of them has tried to dispel the Hold Person and use Belkar as a fight changer yet - Durkon healing him, or Malack controlling him.

It does look like a blunder, yes, unless Durkon can see Belkar standing right behind Malack.

The relative position of Belkar to Malack and Durkon seems to be changing erratically so it's hard to be sure, but right now it looks like Belkar is behind Durkon. If that is the case, then it was a major blunder. I didn't realize that Heal could not kill Malack.

schlapko

2013-02-27, 04:29 PM

i have a feeling that will durkon "raise" belkster, and he'll just nonchalantly stab durkon in the back and say smtng like "cool, i always wanted to be a vampire, since watched brad pitt in that movie"

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 04:33 PM

Kaerou

2013-02-27, 04:34 PM

I do hope Malack survives this confrontation, he tried to find every venue he could to prevent combat and harming Durkon.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 04:35 PM

Malack casts a spell on Belkar in the 5th panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html). I don't believe we know what the spell was. Is it possible that Malack used up his Harm here?

If not, what else would he be casting? If so, Belkar would be unconscious, right?

It's not Harm; probably Level Drain of some sort? Harm would've left visible injuries. I think.

Olinser

2013-02-27, 04:35 PM

Malack casts a spell on Belkar in the 5th panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html). I don't believe we know what the spell was. Is it possible that Malack used up his Harm here?

If not, what else would he be casting? If so, Belkar would be unconscious, right?

Belkar didn't get any additional 'damage graphics' on him, so I don't think it was Harm - don't vampires in 3.5 have a drain attack?

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 04:41 PM

Malack casts a spell on Belkar in the 5th panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html). I don't believe we know what the spell was. Is it possible that Malack used up his Harm here?

If not, what else would he be casting? If so, Belkar would be unconscious, right?

It's a vampire ability, Energy Drain, not a spell. It's how you make vampire spawn.

pendell

2013-02-27, 04:41 PM

Olinser

2013-02-27, 04:54 PM

Tactically, speaking, it looks like Malack has stocked up on Death effects for his arsenal, which means that Mass Death Ward has blocked not only most of his spells but his natural attacks as well.

That may be why he pulled out greater dispel magic -- if it works, he can then target Durkon with his best attacks. Otherwise he's coming into this battle with a broken weapon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Actually that brings up a possible outcome - what do yall think the probability of Malack grabbing Belkar and pulling a 'let me go or the halfling dies!' is? I dunno how the combat rules would work out, but with vampire strength on a paralyzed person he could snap his neck like a twig.

Chantelune

2013-02-27, 05:00 PM

Maybe - but V was running from that mummy and was definitely meditating underground - he may have changed his spells out for more undead-focused combat. Did we ever get a clear indication of how long a time period it has been since he was tossed in that pit?

Don't really know, but doubt it's even remotely close to 8 hours. :p

And V was too disturbed by seeing a dead Draketooth "accuse" her to notice it was a mummy, I think. Not even sure she realised that it meant that foes were on the way.

As for why no-one tried to use Belkar so far, my guess would be that Durkon doesn't trust him enough to be sure he won't turn on him and Malack probably think he drained too many levels for him to be worth the trouble.

Kish

2013-02-27, 05:57 PM

Malack casts a spell on Belkar in the 5th panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html). I don't believe we know what the spell was. Is it possible that Malack used up his Harm here?
I don't believe that was a spell. I suspect it was, "I use my vampire negative energy touch to drain some of your energy to heal the mark you just put on my nose. Have two negative levels!"

Flame of Anor

2013-02-27, 06:39 PM

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-27, 07:46 PM

The pendulum's definitely swung in the dwarf's favor by the end of 873. Assuming Malack hasn't been blasted into mist by the Heal, he's got to find a way to make the most out of his vampire abilities.

My next round, were I Malack:

Quickened Inflict Light Wounds on self...don't want to die to an AoE when I...

Move away from Durkon in the direction the dwarf came from...

Blade Barrier between me and Durkon.

This would give Malack time and space to Fast Heal and/or heal himself with Inflict Wounds. It also cuts Durkon off from retreating back to the Order, and from reinforcements.

Then I'd just wait. Death Ward and Blade Barrier have the same duration.

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 08:12 PM

Seharvepernfan

2013-02-27, 08:13 PM

So. Does Malack have legs? Because I have yet to see them.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 08:35 PM

All Malack needs to do is cast Harm defensively on himself next turn and he'll be fine.

I really doubt Durkon is packing a quickened cure to finish the job. In fact I kind of doubt that he has quicken at all.

Da'Shain

2013-02-27, 08:45 PM

Dang! That is a good plan. Which is why I don't like it. I'm hoping the Giant just wanted to leave us with a little suspense before Durkon pulls his own Quickened Cure Light Wounds, if that's even possible. Is it reasonable to hope he learned the one-two punch from Malack?He'll probably use it in the future, but he might not have realized he'd be facing Undead today and there's not much reason to quicken a CLW otherwise.

I sincerely doubt that Malack is going to immediately die here, but it does look like he'll at least fail to win. Being almost certainly a lower level cleric than Durkon (both ECL-wise and because the comic made a point of implying it), he probably only has 2 or 3 6th level spell slots, one of which he just used for GDM, and another of which he would use for Blade Barrier here. Durkon has at least 4 as well as higher level spells; it might take nova-ing, but he can almost certainly defeat Malack in a war of attrition. Heck, if he has a GDM prepared himself (which he'd be a fool not to, but hey, this is OotS) he could quite likely just get rid of Malack's barrier the next round.

Of course, Malack's comment about Durkon having used most of his spell slots is fairly correct; he did cast Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) (possibly twice in the same day) (5th level), Find the Path (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html) (6th), an Extended True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html) (6th), Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) (7th), another True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html) (5th), and his Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html) (7th), so he's down at least 2 5th level, 2 6th level, and 2 7th level spells going into the fight. It might be that they're relatively equally matched spell-wise, except in CL.

zegram 33

2013-02-27, 10:09 PM

Rorrik

2013-02-27, 10:32 PM

out of interest: do we know that durkon didnt hit Malack with Mass Death Ward too?

i mean...if i saw a vampiric priest of death doing death-y things, and knew that said deathy things could heal him, and was casting the spell anyway, i'd certainly at least TRY including him.
Durkons high wis (not that he's showing it what with refusing to compromise with malack) should mean he would too, and a failed attempt at "Harm" would leave malack fairly open to be finished off in a dramatic fashion.

thoughts?

Cool as I think that would be, we didn't see the spell fieldy thing indicating he was the target of such a spell around him when Belkar cast it.

What are the chances of Malack failing the save against it if he did?

Bird

2013-02-27, 10:33 PM

So. Does Malack have legs? Because I have yet to see them.
I was going to say that you can tell he does by the way his cloak looks when he sits down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), but....considering he has a tail, even there it's kinda ambiguous.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-28, 02:35 AM

I sincerely doubt that Malack is going to immediately die here, but it does look like he'll at least fail to win. Being almost certainly a lower level cleric than Durkon (both ECL-wise and because the comic made a point of implying it), he probably only has 2 or 3 6th level spell slots, one of which he just used for GDM, and another of which he would use for Blade Barrier here. Durkon has at least 4 as well as higher level spells; it might take nova-ing, but he can almost certainly defeat Malack in a war of attrition. Heck, if he has a GDM prepared himself (which he'd be a fool not to, but hey, this is OotS) he could quite likely just get rid of Malack's barrier the next round.

His ECL is higher, unless you believe that Durkon is an epic-levelled cleric somehow. 11 base (minimum) + 8 vampire LA + lizardfolk LA

rottenvenetic

2013-02-28, 03:18 AM

I spent the best part of an hour chewing on the matchup from various angles and there are too many variables. How many actual cleric levels does Malack have? How high is Durkon's con, and more importantly, his HP? Does Malack have items to mitigate the damage? Is Thor's Lightning plus a saved Heal enough to put him on 1 HP? Did Mal save the heal or fail it? Can he slap Durkon with a Harm next turn?

The Giant hasn't written himself into a hole, obviously.

My money's on Malack, though, for several reasons not having to do with any class and level and spell shenanigans:

1. Mal is a prominent, interesting villain AND an important member of Tarquin's team, who Durkon is going to destroy if he can. I don't think that's gonna happen. He simply has too much potential to be a thorn in the Order's side and/or join the final battle against Xykon (if Redcloak and/or the MitD don't take care of him).

2. He probably knows what he's doing and certainly doesn't seem like the type to let his own complacency do him in. He must've expected to get slapped with a Heal at some point, and likely understands that Durkon, as a dwarf cleric of Thor, is probably well kitted out to deal with undead.

3. The Order has an unfortunate habit of not actually winning even when they do, especially when split up. Durkon is by no means an exception to this.

4. Tarquin and Malack haven't faced off against Redcloak or Xykon yet.

5. I repeat, Malack has to draw or win to even survive. Durkon's hatred of undead has gotten ahead of him. He can probably try to flee with gasseous form or something but that's iffy. If Durkon is still up when he does it, that MR 10 ain't doing much, I don't think.

veti

2013-02-28, 04:16 AM

My money's on Malack, though, for several reasons not having to do with any class and level and spell shenanigans:

1. Mal is a prominent, interesting villain AND an important member of Tarquin's team, who Durkon is going to destroy if he can. I don't think that's gonna happen. He simply has too much potential to be a thorn in the Order's side and/or join the final battle against Xykon (if Redcloak and/or the MitD don't take care of him).

I disagree. Malack really isn't that interesting, and since his Big Reveal I think he's shot his bolt. I really don't care if he dies right here and now, we've learned all we're going to learn from him. And narratively, he's superfluous: he's not necessary for any of the main plotlines (Order vs Xykon, LG vs OOTS, Tarquin vs Narrative Inevitability). His only real role is to prompt character development for Durkon, and he's doing that right now.

(Well, okay. A final shot showing his withered-up legs would be nice. But it seems an awfully small payoff for keeping him going for another 300 strips.)

It would, however, be development for Durkon to kill his erstwhile friend. And I do mean development, not derailment. It would be consistent with his established character, but it would also prompt a bout of dwarfish introspection that would probably result in Durkon becoming more active and self-confident, less willing to let others take the lead all the time.

Better yet, it would really annoy Tarquin. It would give Tarquin what he hasn't yet got: a personal stake in Nale's obsession with destroying the Order, a reason to start taking the whole thing seriously. And a problem, because his Grand Plan for the continent calls for a party of at least six, and without Malack he's one short.

But hey, I'm usually wrong. I kinda look forward to being surprised on these things.

Seharvepernfan

2013-02-28, 05:33 AM

Durkons high wis (not that he's showing it what with refusing to compromise with malack)

I think that's exactly why he's not compromising.

i6uuaq

2013-02-28, 07:24 AM

Hmm.

My interpretation of plot armor here is slightly different. I don't see Durkon winning, mainly because he pretty much caused this conflict by his intransigence in the previous strip. If hubris comes into this at all, Durkon should end up worse-off for his attitude.

Previously I would have predicted Malack to win outright. The battle now appears to be swinging the other way, but I figure that at very least, Durkon is burning spell slots that he is going to miss very badly later.

The Succubus

2013-02-28, 08:31 AM

One thing that has crossed my mind.

We've seen Durkon use Thor's Lightning and Thor's Might. Would Malack have any equivalent spells, like Blessing of Nerghal or something? :smallconfused:

Kish

2013-02-28, 08:34 AM

I don't see Durkon winning, mainly because he pretty much caused this conflict by his intransigence in the previous strip. If hubris comes into this at all, Durkon should end up worse-off for his attitude.
...That is, apparently, a point of view it is possible to hold.

I wouldn't stake too much on it.

Crusher

2013-02-28, 08:45 AM

Kick his a**, Durkon!

With that having been said, I'm betting a bowl of Grandma Crusher's award winning chili on the Dwarf.

I think Malack recovers from the Heal, pulls the fight back to almost even and looks like he's got the momentum, and then gets absolutely destroyed by something unexpected (GDM + stray beam of sunlight, perhaps). Then as the capper, Durkon stakes Malack, perma-killing him which, as noted above, makes the fight against the OoS personal for Tarquin.

I believe we've just finished round 5, and I'm going to call the KO for round 8.

Seharvepernfan

2013-02-28, 09:00 AM

sam79

2013-02-28, 09:04 AM

...That is, apparently, a point of view it is possible to hold.

I wouldn't stake too much on it.

There must be some sort of universal law that sates, should a view be concievable, it will be held vociferously by somebody on an internet forum somewhere. Often this one.

If I was DMing this fight, I'd be giving our cleric of Thor a +2 circumstance mod as a Just and Righteous Anger bonus. Hammer that Evil creep into the ground, Durkon!

i6uuaq

2013-02-28, 09:09 AM

There must be some sort of universal law that sates, should a view be concievable, it will be held vociferously by somebody on an internet forum somewhere. Often this one.

If I was DMing this fight, I'd be giving our cleric of Thor a +2 circumstance mod as a Just and Righteous Anger bonus. Hammer that Evil creep into the ground, Durkon!

I'll decline the option on "vociferously". See sig for details.

Also, "stake". I see what you did there.

Tomada

2013-02-28, 09:25 AM

The fight is going the way it should.

With (mass) death ward on, Durkon is on a VERY big advantage over Malack.

And Malack is not going to die. He will turn gaseous and try to run to one of his coffins. If he has one in range is another story entirely.

Good thing is Durkon still gets the exp no matter what. And this is a very high CR challenge.

sam79

2013-02-28, 09:27 AM

I'll decline the option on "vociferously". See sig for details.

Also, "stake". I see what you did there.

I do love that sig.

Also, can't really take credit for 'stake'; that was Kish.

In the last couple of strips, the person who seemed to be done for in the last panel had a reverse of fortune in the next. If that pattern continues, then Durkon might be done for. Way I see it though; we had Belkar declare what he was fighting for, in a meta-gaming attempt to influence the outcome of the fight ('guys that say corny stuff like this win fights', or something like that). In the previous strip, we've had Durkon, the quiet man (dwarf) of the OOTS, do basically the same thing, only genuinely. Hence, I think if there is a moral high-ground 'bonus' to be had, it is Durkon's. Not to mention he is due a Hero Moment or two.

Crusher

2013-02-28, 09:30 AM

I think Coat made an important point earlier that's worth re-iterating, which is the explanation for why the near-epic Team Tarquin (I'm betting that most of the team is roughly level 18-19) would hobble itself by carting around a level 11-12 cleric like Malack. Sure, he probably has the highest ECL in the party, somewhere in the low 20s, but at first glance one might wonder if they'd actually be better off with, say, a regular old 18th level cleric.

Leaving aside the issues of whether they could even find a suitable level 18 cleric or if they'd be willing to ditch a long-time companion, there's a solid party composition reason for it as well. TPK insurance. Tarquin is a guy who likes to have all his angles covered, right? Well, what better insurance could you have than a cleric who can raise people while being virtually unkillable himself?

Rocks fall, everyone di... Oh, wait, Malack assumes gaseous form and gets to work getting everyone back up. Its just about the best insurance policy you could possibly have. The downside is that they have access to a lot less healing power than one would expect for a party their level. My guess is that someone else in the party is a class that has the potential for significant healing capabilities, Mystic Theurge or something, and between the two of them they cover what's needed.

Kaerou

2013-02-28, 11:48 AM

Can death ward effect an unwilling participant? (Malack) if so, he can't heal himself and could be in trouble.

Hopefully he'll cast word of recall, since he's not really the bad guy here, unyielding LG is the aggressor, Malack really isn't hurting anyone, and I refuse to believe someone is bad purely because of what they are, Malack has done everything to avoid combat and not hurt others with his condition. EVen in the confrontation with Belkar he was defensive

I think Coat made an important point earlier that's worth re-iterating, which is the explanation for why the near-epic Team Tarquin (I'm betting that most of the team is roughly level 18-19) would hobble itself by carting around a level 11-12 cleric like Malack. Sure, he probably has the highest ECL in the party, somewhere in the low 20s, but at first glance one might wonder if they'd actually be better off with, say, a regular old 18th level cleric.

Good point really, its one of the principle flaws in the third edition system when it comes to class levels + racial abilities / templates. They really don't synergise with spellcasting classes at all.

Stormlock

2013-02-28, 12:20 PM

So, if Malack simply used inflict moderate/serious wounds on himself and then spider climbed up the wall out of reach of touch attacks, what would Durkon's options be at this point? Lightning will likely whiff the reflex save even if he has it again, and between that and elec resistance Malack would take 7 damage on average- nowhere near enough to be a threat. I'd assume at that point Durkon would try to help Belkar and retreat... but how exactly?

Not that I expect this (or Word of Recall for that matter) to actually happen since it would be entirely too logical. The fight will probably be decided by some third party (Belkar, Scruffy or V.)

iyaerP

2013-02-28, 12:44 PM

Actually that brings up a possible outcome - what do yall think the probability of Malack grabbing Belkar and pulling a 'let me go or the halfling dies!' is? I dunno how the combat rules would work out, but with vampire strength on a paralyzed person he could snap his neck like a twig.

Coup-de-gras is a full round action that provokes. So he has to get past durkon over to belkar in one round, presumably cast a spell or something with his standard action and coup in the next one. And hope that Belkar didn't come back into melee.

Pigkappa

2013-02-28, 12:50 PM

Belkar could actually think that being a vampire is cool and overpowered, stand up and help Malack kill Durkon.

That would make the next steps so, so much complicated for the Order!

Kish

2013-02-28, 01:30 PM

You mean difficult? 'Cause complicated it wouldn't be at all: Kill Malack and his treacherous new "child." Or flee in the face of overwhelming power. Neither complicated.

Seharvepernfan

2013-02-28, 01:33 PM

Heh, I just realized after all this time; Durkon is wearing a light shield, not a heavy shield.

Chantelune

2013-02-28, 02:19 PM

Coup-de-gras is a full round action that provokes.

Sorry, but you mean "coup-de-grâce". ^^ "gras" means "fat". You did make me laughs at the idea of Malack finishing Belkar off with some fat. :smallbiggrin:

Tragak

2013-02-28, 02:26 PM

Sorry, but you mean "coup-de-grâce". ^^ "gras" means "fat". You did make me laughs at the idea of Malack finishing Belkar off with some fat. :smallbiggrin:

Gourmet cook the gourmet cook?

Snails

2013-02-28, 02:54 PM

Heh, I just realized after all this time; Durkon is wearing a light shield, not a heavy shield.

Probably. For those who are a stickler for details, a light shield allows the use of the shield hand. For Durkon that means he can touch his holy symbol or grab a spell component in order to cast a spell, without needing to put down and pick up his hammer in the middle of a melee.

Olinser

2013-02-28, 04:05 PM

Chantelune

2013-02-28, 04:11 PM

Mmmh, if Durkon goes in an attrition fight, he might end up losing. Interesting that he wants to raise Malack to cure his vampirism.

That fight is getting more and more interesting. :smallamused:

Stormlock

2013-02-28, 04:16 PM

Yeah, things just swung back in the direction I thought they'd go. Surpirsed Malack used Harm instead of critical or even serious wounds though- Harm is total overkill compared to what Durkon can possible dish out, and totally wastes his fast healing. Though maybe he's just higher level than we thought and has slots to spare. Would love to see him bust out a 7th level spell next comic. He almost definitely has the wis for a bonus slot at that level, which would give him 3 level 7 spells, leaving Durkon pretty much totally screwed without help.

TRH

2013-02-28, 04:24 PM

I just noticed that Malack's taken up a position in one of those two doorways, which effectively prevents Durkon from leaving that corridor. Now the best thing for him to do would be to try and block them both off with a Blade Barrier; that way, Durkon will be completely unable to leave or pursue any offensive action against Malack until his Death Ward wears off, at which point he'll be defenseless. At that point, Durkon's only hope would be to make a run through the Blades and hope that he'd still have enough hit points to survive Malack's slam attacks, a really dicey gamble even without level drain.

pendell

2013-02-28, 04:31 PM

As expected, cleric vs. cleric with vampire powers equals problem for cleric. I expected Belkar would re-enter the fray. I did NOT expect Malack to Dominate him, but it's a very realistic tactical move to make.

It looks to me as if Durkon is dead meat unless he can get some assistance FAST. I'm hoping for V.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-28, 04:49 PM

Stormlock

2013-02-28, 04:53 PM

Oh lord, I’ve been overlooking an amazing combo Malack could pull:

Silence on himself, then grapple Durkon.

That shuts the dwarf’s spellcasting down completely. Malack would take a lot of one-handed hammer blows to his pale, scaly noggin, but between his DR and his fast healing, he’d get the best of it, even if he were limited to grapple damage--that is, if the Death Ward protects against blood drain, which it really shouldn’t, but hey.

The Silence will last almost as long as the Death Ward. Malack only needs to grapple Durkon until Hold Person wears off from Belkar, 15 rounds from now. His dominating gaze will last for days.

Don't forget he has a Dire Wolf form he can take as a standard action as well. 25 Str and large size make for one hell of a grapple check. Even worse if his form is a giant constrictor snake thanks to his race, his grappling advantage would be off the charts.

Also, even without silence, if he pins him, he can optionally silence him anyways. And even without pinning, Durkon can't cast any spells requiring somatic components (though Rich has handwaved this stuff before, multiple times.)

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-28, 05:02 PM

The more I think about it, the more I love the Silence + grapple combo. Malack casting the spell and springing would be the last panel of a strip, then the entire next strip would be a desperate hand-to-hand struggle with the characters’ expressions telling the whole story.

Rorrik

2013-02-28, 06:43 PM

I've thrown all my optimism behind Durkon so far, but with Thor distracted (as usual) I just don't see how Durkon can do it.

My last hope is that V comes right down that corridor Malack is blocking and blasts him with something big.

However, I'm warming up to the idea of Malack getting out of this. I definitely want to see him come back. For a vampire to run off to a coffin, does it have to be unoccupied? Girard's is just upstairs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html), and I'm not actually sure he's still in it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).

It's an ideal place for Malack to fall back to and recover until the LG arrives.

Stormlock

2013-02-28, 06:58 PM

A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

So it has to be HIS coffin. However, it is a long held tropes that vampires (especially old and powerful ones) bring their coffins with them when travelling far from home. They may well have taken the brontosaurus express to get most of the way to Windy Canyon, or he could have some sort of spell or magic device to bring his coffin along with him on his person.

Emmit Svenson

2013-02-28, 07:01 PM

Rorrik

2013-02-28, 07:07 PM

I would expect Malack to have a coffin strapped to the side of his pterodon, or something. But I'd fear for his life if it came to him having to retreat to it...I would expect Nale to be ready with a stake for such an eventuality.

Unfortunately Malack was flying on his won power. The only pterodon was Tarquin's, and he looks to small to be packing a coffin. Maybe they did haul one in on a Brontosaurus.

Feddlefew

2013-02-28, 07:09 PM

Anyone else thinks this fight is going to end with the rest of the Order suddenly coming down the ramp, only to find just Belkar?

Bonus: They're being lead by Mr. Scruffy.
Heartwarming!Bonus: Mr. Scruffy promptly snaps Belkar out of his trance.
Horror!Bonus: The final panel cuts to Durkon somewhere down one of the side passages, just as Malack sucks out his last point of con.

Stormlock

2013-02-28, 07:17 PM

Hell, you could easily fit a coffin in an epic level (or even low level) Bag of Holding, and Tarquin and Malack could both easily own those. It's just a matter of where he'd have left the coffin before engaging in the fight. Windy Canyon's got plenty of hidey holes though. If he's smart he could be merely minutes away from his coffin, in a spot nobody else can even reach, up on a cliff somewhere.

As a potential freaky bonus, the coffin could be in a bag of holding on Tarquin's person. In the event Malack gets beaten, he just zips into the bag. Not like he needs air, and there's guaranteed to be no sunlight.

Lamech

2013-02-28, 07:21 PM

If V shows up behind the vizard he's probably just gonna be vamp food. He has next to no hit points. I'm still expecting a heroic sacrifice. Anyway, I think Durkon might have the right plan. In all honesty, Neither Haley nor Elan have particularly good will saves. Roy's is decent, but still its not Durkon's. Neither Roy, nor Elan can really do damage to fliers. And Haley's range counts too much on icy burst, and sneak attack to hurt Malack really.

Durkon fired his big spell. He's using 3rd and 2nd level spells to heal. He can't beat Malack to death with his hammer since he's too low Malack has his gaseous form and his fast healing.

I think his options are die now, or hope the Order can stop Malack. It occurs to me he could save himself from being vamped (or save Belkar) by coup de grace. They'd be dead but they wouldn't be undead.

pendell

2013-02-28, 07:43 PM

I have learned a lesson both from this and from Roy's encounter with Xykon in Azure City. Which is, if I am facing an overpowered adversary and he gives me the opportunity to withdraw, all other things being equal, I will booping well take it .

After all, whatever would have happened if Roy had got off the dragon is Xykon suggested would have been pretty much the same as what happened anyway , except that the order wouldn't have had to drag Roy's corpse around for hundreds of strips.

Likewise , if Durkon had agreed to Malack's proposal that they withdraw, he would have removed Malack from the board and saved Belkar's life. That is the absolute best thing he could hope for from combat with Malack. A Durkon removed from battle by a promise is only marginally less effective than a Durkon who has spent most of his daily spells *at best*.

So maybe this is a better rule: When my gains from not fighting equal or exceed my gains from fighting, I will not fight. Doesn't matter if it's an opportunity to fight an evil monster. There will be other opportunities.

Wasn't it Wellington who said "Discretion (i.e., knowing when to fight and when not to) is the better part (more than 50%) of valor (the art of fighting)"?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2013-02-28, 07:51 PM

I have learned a lesson both from this and from Roy's encounter with Xykon in Azure City. Which is, if I am facing an overpowered adversary and he gives me the opportunity to withdraw, all other things being equal, I will booping well take it .

After all, whatever would have happened if Roy had got off the dragon is Xykon suggested would have been pretty much the same as what happened anyway , except that the order wouldn't have had to drag Roy's corpse around for hundreds of strips.
*cough*
Quite possibly, if Roy had accepted the offer, Xykon would have said "Sucker" and Meteor Swarmed the dragon anyway, leaving Roy to be told by the deva, "It appears you abandoned your quest, albeit in the last minute of your life, so...have fun with your father for the next few months!"

And as for the current one, well...Durkon is somewhere between Lawful Good and Inevitable Good. He's not willing to lie to Malack any more than he is to sincerely agree to let Malack continue to do harm.

Stormlock

2013-02-28, 08:22 PM

To be fair, Roy could have picked up some pretty good tips for fighting Xykon from his dad. he might have been better off that way (though I honestly think Xykon would have let him go.)

And Durkon (and his quest) would definitely have been better served by him and Malack withdrawing from the battle, since as things stand, it is entirely likely that he's going to need bailing out from a third party member. If they'd have simply withdrawn, Belkar would have broken paralysis eventually (likely well before this fight will end) and gotten back to help the rest of the party, or found V. Durkon's already done most of what he can for his party, Malack has not. It's by far in the OotS' interest for both of them to take the bench.

The only way a fight works out in favour of the OotS is if Durkon wins all on his own, or he recieves help that is sufficient to win but less than what Durkon can still provide to the rest of his team (like say, if V walked up and disintegrated Malack in a single round, and Durkon was able to spend his spell slots healing Belkar and V up as well as himself) and that scenario seems far less likely than Malack coming out on top, or being defeated only at the cost of pretty much all of Durkon's spells and a significant cost to his allies as well.

Incom

2013-02-28, 11:32 PM

Another point: going over the last few strips, I do think the corridor Malack is currently camping in is the one Durkon and Belkar came from, or leads somewhere near there. So if he tries guerrilla tactics he might get sandwiched.

Acanous

2013-03-01, 12:11 AM

I'm actually voting for the Snake here.
Malack tried to be reasonable. He offered multiple different compromises, starting with giving up on draining Belkar in good faith.
Durkon's all "No! You're undead, and obviously that means I have to kill you, because you're a danger to everyone!"
Even though Malack isn't actually hurting anybody, at least not as a vampire.
(He may be doing a lot more damage just as a high priest in the Empire of Blood, but that's independant of him being a vampire)

So yeah. Malack reminds me of Steve the Aboleth. He's trying to let the PC go, but that PC is determined to go fight to the death.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-01, 12:17 AM

Even though Malack isn't actually hurting anybody, at least not as a vampire.

Besides being caught in the act of sucking the blood out of Belkar and turning him into a vampire?

Lamech

2013-03-01, 12:42 AM

I have learned a lesson both from this and from Roy's encounter with Xykon in Azure City. Which is, if I am facing an overpowered adversary and he gives me the opportunity to withdraw, all other things being equal, I will booping well take it .

One of the problems is that Durkon is lawful so the options you are suggesting aren't really feasible. If it was Haley she could do it in a second, but that isn't Durkon. He can't lie to the lizard and he can't abandon his team. If he was a crack diplomat he might be able to make a truce, but he can't even really lie by omission over something major.

He dealt with the lizard honesty as per his alignment. And this is where it got him.

Stormlock

2013-03-01, 01:04 AM

Besides being caught in the act of sucking the blood out of Belkar and turning him into a vampire?

Well, given that the other option would have been for the ECL 20 something lizardfolk priest of a deathgod to just zot him with Destruction or somesuch... being a vampire is the only reason Belkar isn't dead yet. And I'm pretty sure Belkar would rather be a vampire than a non animated corpse Roy intends for him to become. Not really feeling the whole 'Malack is an evil guy making vampires because he's evil' thing here. He's working with Tarquin and making the best of a bad situation. Belkar is getting the blood sucked out of him because he's Malack's enemy and (like Durkon) refused to be civil about things under the assumption that he could easily win a fight.

I wonder how things would have gone if it had been (not crazy) V bumping into Malack around the corner? I'd wager an arrangement would have been made that would have been much better for everyone who isn't Nale.

Flame of Anor

2013-03-01, 02:13 AM

If V shows up behind the vizard

Vizard? (http://www.houseffg.org/belphoebe/Research/Masks/Index.html)

Wasn't it Wellington who said "Discretion (i.e., knowing when to fight and when not to) is the better part (more than 50%) of valor (the art of fighting)"?

Shakespeare, actually.

Malack tried to be reasonable. He offered multiple different compromises

Yeah, "reasonable compromise" is one word for it. "Demanding a conditional surrender" is a better one.

deworde

2013-03-01, 05:14 AM

So maybe this is a better rule: When my gains from not fighting equal or exceed my gains from fighting, I will not fight. Doesn't matter if it's an opportunity to fight an evil monster. There will be other opportunities.

Generally speaking the most tactically sound decision. And yes, if it was Roy, Haley or Vaarsuvius standing there, they'd have shaken hands and backed away slowly (with Roy gritting his teeth at the situation). Granted, neither V nor Haley would have lived up to the deal, but still...

But this is a Lawful Good Dwarven Warrior Cleric. If you backed down from a fight with a vampire because it was the tactically appropriate thing to do, it would be a betrayal of your race, god, and class features. There would be... consequences for such a breach of RP.

Coat

2013-03-01, 08:07 AM

I make it something like 8 or 9 rounds since the fight started. If Malack summoned the Children Of The Night while he was talking to Durkon (and honestly, why not?), then they should be due to arrive around now.

A pack of wolves, or a few bat or rat swarms (or their lizardfolk equivalents - scorpion swarm? snakes?) aren't going to pose a threat to Durkon - but they'll distract him, burn up more of his spells, and make it harder for him to move away from Belkar to get the rest of the order, if he decides to run.

Malack's approach is making sense to me. He doesn't know quite how strong Durkon is, how many spells he has, or how many he's cast. So he tries for a couple of quick finishers, and allows D to burn off his big shots. Doesn't work, so now we're into the long game - use up D's spells until he has nothing but trash left that vampiric regen can overcome, and beat him to death with an iron bar. Or grapple and drain, I suppose.

200 years since he was alive: minimum requirement for a Vampire Lord is vamp for 100 years. Also, he suggests that D stakes him - this would finish a normal vamp, but has no effect on a Lord (though a little acting would probably suggest it had). I've a feeling the Giant is toying with us. Vampire Lord's text mentions they can recover in a coffin that must contain soil of their homeland. Depending where Malack grew up, that might not be in short supply - and as previously mentioend Chekov left his gun... I mean, there is a coffin upstairs.

Unless D can get a good use out of his (sole remaining?) 8th level slot, he could be in a lot of trouble.

Winter

2013-03-01, 09:34 AM

The Succubus

2013-03-01, 09:34 AM

Vizard? (http://www.houseffg.org/belphoebe/Research/Masks/Index.html)

Vampire lizard. I'm hoping for some vizard/wizard fun times myself. =3

I just realised "Dominate Person" is 1 day/level. Which means Belkar is a threat to Durkon for as long as the fight runs and if Malack escapes, Belkar is going to be a honorary member of the Linear Guild until they manage to dispel the spell (which is going to be hard if Durkon uses up more spells and Vaarsuvius stays lost).

...the Linear guild doesn't have a lactose intolerent cat by any chance? >:)

Lamech

2013-03-01, 10:56 AM

I just realised "Dominate Person" is 1 day/level. Which means Belkar is a threat to Durkon for as long as the fight runs and if Malack escapes, Belkar is going to be a honorary member of the Linear Guild until they manage to dispel the spell (which is going to be hard if Durkon uses up more spells and Vaarsuvius stays lost).

Btw, is Vaarsuvius going to stumble into this fight at one point or the other?

Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled. Durkon or V could waste a dispel magic, but they can't dispell it. Belkar is an honorary member of the Linear Guild for the next 12 days. Or maybe more if that's a vamp lord. Or Malack just decides to reapply the dominate.

A pack of wolves, or a few bat or rat swarms (or their lizardfolk equivalents - scorpion swarm? snakes?) aren't going to pose a threat to Durkon - but they'll distract him, burn up more of his spells, and make it harder for him to move away from Belkar to get the rest of the order, if he decides to run.It depends on what swarm Malack summons as a lizard. Locusts sounds reasonable. That at least force Durkon to flee unless he has a lot of spare area of effect spells sitting around. Haley probably has the spare alchemists fire or acid to stop something like that, but Durkon doesn't seem the type.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-01, 11:00 AM

Killing Belkar and ressing him later really would be the best move at this point.

Losing a level is preferable to days of domination.

TRH

2013-03-01, 11:08 AM

They could just Plane Shift him to the Plane of Ranch Dressing for however long is necessary, although losing a level is probably preferable to being out of action for almost two weeks. Eh, what are you gonna do.

Olinser

2013-03-01, 11:17 AM

Vizard? (http://www.houseffg.org/belphoebe/Research/Masks/Index.html)

Shakespeare, actually.

Yeah, "reasonable compromise" is one word for it. "Demanding a conditional surrender" is a better one.

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. His 'reasonable compromises' basically boiled down to, "Let me have what I want and I won't kill you." Every single one of Malack's solutions are Durkon making concessions and letting Malack have what he wanted.

Raineh Daze

2013-03-01, 01:26 PM

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. His 'reasonable compromises' basically boiled down to, "Let me have what I want and I won't kill you." Every single one of Malack's solutions are Durkon making concessions and letting Malack have what he wanted.

That there were no more favourable terms for Durkon is completely unsurprising with his lack of co-operation.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-01, 04:11 PM

I'm more convinced than ever that this isn't going to end well for Durkon.

The divine favour hammer bash looked cool but I really doubt his hammer is silver so it's going to moderately sting Malack at best. I think we just saw Durkon use up his last trick before Malack shifts this fight into his arena of meleeing him to death.

10 rounds of Divine Favour is nice, but it's not enough to take this fight for Durkon.

Bird

2013-03-01, 04:16 PM

If Malack doesn't have legs, he must constantly use his floaty powers to bob up and down when he moves. Otherwise, someone would have noticed that he was slithering -- it's easy to tell the difference from walking, even with the lower half of the body covered up.

If he were actually slithering, I think more of his tail would have to stick out, too.

Umberhulk

2013-03-01, 04:19 PM

He isn't out of spells. He's waiting to use some of his better spells when they can best be used. Durkon is a great character, but spends quite a bit of time out of the spotlight, because of the more verbal characters. I for one am happy to finally see him shine again. I don't believe he can ultimately win the battle by himself though. We will see...

Stormlock

2013-03-01, 04:30 PM

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. His 'reasonable compromises' basically boiled down to, "Let me have what I want and I won't kill you." Every single one of Malack's solutions are Durkon making concessions and letting Malack have what he wanted.

What?! How is 'How about we both leave and let the battle resolve itself' a huge concession from Durkon. Malack easily contributes more to his team than Durkon does to his. Hell, look at how things ended up: Tarquin retreated with Nale and Zzditri, Sabine is gone. Roy, Elan, and Halley are all fine, Belkar and V will be as soon as they meet up with the rest of the team. Having both of them withdraw is tantamount to Malack surrendering if anything.

And Durkon's equivalent offer: Surrender so I can KILL YOU. Oh yeah. Totally reasonable. :smallannoyed:

Shale

2013-03-01, 04:34 PM

Belkar will only be fine if Durkon is around to Restore him - that bite carried two negative levels.

Rorrik

2013-03-01, 04:45 PM

Wow, after the reveal of Malack's plan, I'm having a lot of trouble buying into the whole "Nergal is Neutral" concept. Neutral is not sacrifice innocents as efficiently as possible by any means. Well, it could be if you thought life was completely unimportant.

Edit: Rules or no rules, Durkon should rip Malack's Unholy Symbol off before he can get back on his feet. Then he could turn him.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-01, 04:48 PM

Nergal could certainly be LN and Malack could be giving him a LE twist. One step shifts in cleric alignments are allowed, after all.

kickassfrog

2013-03-01, 04:49 PM

What?! How is 'How about we both leave and let the battle resolve itself' a huge concession from Durkon. Malack easily contributes more to his team than Durkon does to his. Hell, look at how things ended up: Tarquin retreated with Nale and Zzditri, Sabine is gone. Roy, Elan, and Halley are all fine, Belkar and V will be as soon as they meet up with the rest of the team. Having both of them withdraw is tantamount to Malack surrendering if anything.

And Durkon's equivalent offer: Surrender so I can KILL YOU. Oh yeah. Totally reasonable. :smallannoyed:

That was mostly down to Durkon's Holy word though. Besides, if he backs out, the OotS is caster less (V is missing, and Elan is, well, Elan), as well as minus one front line fighter, but if Malack does the same, the guild still has Nale and Z, as well as a melee character who can take the order 5 against 1 and still hold his ground.

Realistically the order probably needs team evil to show up and slaughter the LG for them. Plus a white bony undead caster vs a white scaly undead caster would be an interesting duel.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-01, 04:52 PM

Plus a white bony undead caster vs a white scaly undead caster would be an interesting duel.

I don't think Malack getting splattered all over the room in like two rounds would be that interesting.

Chantelune

2013-03-01, 04:56 PM

Mmmh, Durkon don't have much spells above 4th, so the next few rounds might not be in his favor. He could try to dash and flee, but it's very unlikely as it would mean leaving Belkar to Malack.

Bashing him might not do good either with his DR and the clock ticks in Malack favor. Once MDW fades off (and hold person as well), the fight will be Malack, so Durkon has to find a way to win before that, but don't really know how right now.

Can't wait to see next strip, I'm not a huge fan of Durkon, but this fight is awesome. :smallamused:

Stormlock

2013-03-01, 05:04 PM

I don't think Malack getting splattered all over the room in like two rounds would be that interesting.

Something tells me Malack knows a bit more about the undead than Xykon. Though he's obviously not going to win, he'd probably fare at least as well as Darth V, assuming he had all his spells available. Xykon would probably whiff a turn or two trying to energy drain him for starters before he even realized what he was fighting.

Though if Redcloak throws in as well... yeah... Malack could just get Imploded. Or turned. And he'd certainly lose to summoned monsters 9.

But I think he could at least survive a meteor swarm, and he's got the means to heal himself back up more than once. He'd probably fare better than Durkon at any rate (how exactly is mass death ward going to hold up against Superb Dispelling anyways?)

Da'Shain

2013-03-01, 05:23 PM

Something tells me Malack knows a bit more about the undead than Xykon. Though he's obviously not going to win, he'd probably fare at least as well as Darth V, assuming he had all his spells available. Xykon would probably whiff a turn or two trying to energy drain him for starters before he even realized what he was fighting.

Though if Redcloak throws in as well... yeah... Malack could just get Imploded. Or turned. And he'd certainly lose to summoned monsters 9.

But I think he could at least survive a meteor swarm, and he's got the means to heal himself back up more than once. He'd probably fare better than Durkon at any rate (how exactly is mass death ward going to hold up against Superb Dispelling anyways?)Darth V actually managed to hurt Xykon. Which is not something Malack would be able to do. As a vampire, he has pretty much no ability which can do so. As an 11th level Evil cleric, he's simply too weak to do much of anything. He might be able to get a Heal off if he gets close enough and he's got it prepped that day; that's about it.

Implosion won't work on Malack, as undead are immune to effects requiring a Fort save that don't work on objects, and Redcloak can't turn. He could rebuke, though. Yeah, I doubt Malack would be able to do much against Redcloak either, but at least Redcloak's alive and a bit vulnerable to Vampire abilities.

Mass Death Ward will come in handy if only to have Xykon waste a round trying to Energy Drain and then another dispelling. His version of Superb Dispelling might or might not function as an area effect, so it could remain relevant for a while, too. It's certainly better than NOT having it.

Stormlock

2013-03-01, 05:33 PM

TRH

2013-03-01, 05:38 PM

He doesn't even apply grappling or spontaneous casting rules.

Who has the patience to apply grappling rules? :smallbiggrin:

Da'Shain

2013-03-01, 05:45 PM

OTOH, V also basically died during the fight, escaping only due to deus ex umbrella. Xykon's not likely to finish Malack off for good. Also, I think technically Malack's fists would qualify as blunt magical weapons, which would Bypass Xykon's DR. Still utterly trivial, but somewhat hilarious to imagine. Flamestrike would cause a bit of damage as well, since it's 50% divine non typed damage as opposed to fire. Bladebarrier works too.

I suppose Implosion doesn't work on the undead by RAW but it's obviously meant to. I can't imagine Rich being enough of a stickler to insist that crushing Malack to paste does no damage. He doesn't even apply grappling or spontaneous casting rules.Hah, true about his fists, or at least his slam attack. I can picture Xykon just going "Ow. Huh?" Flamestrike would do some damage but only about 5 or 6 d6 worth of it with Malack's level; Blade Barrier's a better choice, but he can only do it a couple times. But why wouldn't Xykon be likely to finish him off for good? Just Meteor Swarm, ad nauseum, is enough to do it, unless Malack's coffin is somewhere nearby; in which case, Xykon scries and kills. Or more likely has Redcloak do it.

I've had this argument about Implosion and found that apparently most people don't share my view, but I stand by it: Implosion is not meant to work on undead and falls perfectly under the "magical death effect" category, no matter what the fluff text says. Crushing Malack to paste can't even kill him, by RAW, as he just turns gaseous. So the spell can't even do anything because it doesn't do HP damage. It's an incredibly poorly written spell if it's actually supposed to do the "make anything implode" trick.

Coat

2013-03-01, 06:51 PM

Assuming that its been less than 15 hours, and that it was greater magic weapon Durkon cast in the battle against Tarquin (which seems likely) it should still be in effect.d20srd doesn't seem clear to me - does his hammer count as magical for the purposes of DR?

Is there an obvious reason he hasn't cast disrupting weapon? Yes Malack should have a good will save, but he only needs to roll badly once...

I don't think Malack would go up against Xykon: that's Tarquin's job. Malack would make a superb scout and skirmisher - popping up behind redcloak to drain some levels off him, dominating hobgobs, etc. But if he's a full vampire lord, he gets +12str +2 for lizardfolk. Not quite sure how the rules work out, but that seems like a substantial threat, before level-draining and buffs.

Flame of Anor

2013-03-01, 06:55 PM

Assuming that its been less than 15 hours, and that it was greater magic weapon Durkon cast in the battle against Tarquin (which seems likely) it should still be in effect.d20srd doesn't seem clear to me - does his hammer count as magical for the purposes of DR?

Has to be magical and silver to bypass vampiric DR, I'm afraid. And I'd be surprised if the hammer weren't magic already.

Is there an obvious reason he hasn't cast disrupting weapon? Yes Malack should have a good will save, but he only needs to roll badly once...

Good point. Maybe he didn't prepare it? That would be a lapse of judgment, but not a ridiculous one.

Kish

2013-03-01, 06:56 PM

Emmit Svenson

2013-03-01, 08:36 PM

The pendulum swings back to Durkon...weakly, this time.

It is conceivable that the dwarf could batter the vampire into mist with his hammer. Unlikely, true, but there's a 20 on every die; a lucky sequence of crits could take Malack out if the pale high priest relies on fast healing rather than casting inflict wounds spells on himself.

I wouldn't bet on that happening, though. Unless Durkon gets reinforced, and fast, he's going down. Whether that means Protection from Evil + dismiss Hold Person on Belkar, or Mr. Scruffy actually returning with Roy (plus, perhaps, Elan and Haley), or V stumbling into the battle, he'll need a miracle. And Thor's busy--hey, perhaps Hela's running interference as professional courtesy to Nergal. :smallsmile:

There's too many ways Malack could win this one. The dwarf's holy symbol, which he could strongly present to keep a vampire at bay, a purely defensive action, is the only thing between him and a grapple...a Silence + grapple combo would still be a nasty finisher for Malack. And then there's Shatter--I'm so dang hung up on the image of him using Shatter on Durkon's holy symbol. I guess the right moment for it, dramatically speaking, would be when Durkon had completely run out of other ideas and was simply fending Durkon off as a last resort.

Rakoa

2013-03-01, 09:28 PM

The pendulum swings back to Durkon...weakly, this time.

It is conceivable that the dwarf could batter the vampire into mist with his hammer. Unlikely, true, but there's a 20 on every die; a lucky sequence of crits could take Malack out if the pale high priest relies on fast healing rather than casting inflict wounds spells on himself.

Keep in mind you cannot crit an undead.

I wouldn't bet on that happening, though. Unless Durkon gets reinforced, and fast, he's going down. Whether that means Protection from Evil + dismiss Hold Person on Belkar, or Mr. Scruffy actually returning with Roy (plus, perhaps, Elan and Haley), or V stumbling into the battle, he'll need a miracle. And Thor's busy--hey, perhaps Hela's running interference as professional courtesy to Nergal. :smallsmile:

I would be disappointed if Durkon received reinforcements. The fact that he showed up to save Belkar is one of those tension things. For it to happen again, for him in this case, would just be unrealistic and a kind of cop out.

There's too many ways Malack could win this one. The dwarf's holy symbol, which he could strongly present to keep a vampire at bay, a purely defensive action, is the only thing between him and a grapple...a Silence + grapple combo would still be a nasty finisher for Malack. And then there's Shatter--I'm so dang hung up on the image of him using Shatter on Durkon's holy symbol. I guess the right moment for it, dramatically speaking, would be when Durkon had completely run out of other ideas and was simply fending Durkon off as a last resort.
I can see this. I would enjoy seeing this.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-01, 09:49 PM

Durkon's going down hard.

TRH

2013-03-01, 10:21 PM

I'm calling it now: Durkon loses (maybe doesn't die immediately, but is clearly defeated) in either one strip or three. The fight so far has been a back-and-forth kind of thing, but I don't foresee many more tricks in Durkon's arsenal, and as cool as the fight has been so far it could get tedious very quickly. Best to end it while it's still exciting, you know?

Of course, there's still the question of who wins, but really, that "Durkon's return to Dwarven lands will bring death and destruction with him" prophecy matches up way too neatly with Nergal's Death and Destruction portfolio for it to be coincidence. So there we go, that's my projection: Durkon defeated (and maybe dead) in the next three strips. It's been an honor to follow your adventures, Brother Thundershield, and no one can call your cause unjust.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-01, 10:32 PM

My first thought would be that the fight is somehow interrupted or changed. I am willing to be all of my accumulated internets on that being the case.

My second thought would be victory for Durkon. It's an unusual call, to be sure, but I have some reasoning.

The Giant is a big fan of people winning or losing fights based on the merits of their character; people very rarely simply "Lose" fights, they fail due to some flaw in their character (Usually pride.) Sure, there are exceptions, but most of those are either comedic, or minor characters, or part of a back-and-forth sequence that gets interrupted by something else.

Durkon, meanwhile, does not have that kind of flaw. He is exactly what he presents himself as: tough, unyielding, almost elemental Dwarf. He wastes even less on pride than he does on false humility. In the fight with Malak, he's been focused, intelligent and thorough.

Furthermore, while it's certainly a cool fight, this battle simply lacks the drama required for a major character to be truly and utterly defeated. This isn't some epic showdown with the fate of nations hanging on a thread; this is a couple of dudes who got lost and got into an accidental slug fest in the basement. Having this be such a defining moment for Durkon would be almost as anticlimactic as Belkar dying to a random encounter.

snikrept

2013-03-01, 11:53 PM

'sabout time for Xykon to appear!

Rorrik

2013-03-02, 02:07 AM

Furthermore, while it's certainly a cool fight, this battle simply lacks the drama required for a major character to be truly and utterly defeated. This isn't some epic showdown with the fate of nations hanging on a thread; this is a couple of dudes who got lost and got into an accidental slug fest in the basement. Having this be such a defining moment for Durkon would be almost as anticlimactic as Belkar dying to a random encounter.

This is certainly true for me. I'm just not feeling a PC death in this fight. It would be a bit of a downer and feel like the prophesy forces the plot into a weak play.

Flame of Anor

2013-03-02, 02:32 AM

'sabout time for Xykon to appear!

Or Vaarsuvius.

Surprise!

2013-03-02, 03:10 AM

Malack is clearly going to want to turn Durkon so he can have more pontificating

Surprise!

2013-03-02, 03:12 AM

Durkon, meanwhile, does not have that kind of flaw. He is exactly what he presents himself as: tough, unyielding, almost elemental Dwarf. He wastes even less on pride than he does on false humility. In the fight with Malak, he's been focused, intelligent and thorough.

True but Pride isn't Malack's flaw, it's loneliness, that loneliness got him bashed in the head, but KO'd?

Forum Explorer

2013-03-02, 05:18 AM

Something tells me Malack knows a bit more about the undead than Xykon. Though he's obviously not going to win, he'd probably fare at least as well as Darth V, assuming he had all his spells available. Xykon would probably whiff a turn or two trying to energy drain him for starters before he even realized what he was fighting.

Though if Redcloak throws in as well... yeah... Malack could just get Imploded. Or turned. And he'd certainly lose to summoned monsters 9.

But I think he could at least survive a meteor swarm, and he's got the means to heal himself back up more than once. He'd probably fare better than Durkon at any rate (how exactly is mass death ward going to hold up against Superb Dispelling anyways?)

Mass Death Ward is likely to burn off one level 9 spell. And Superb Dispelling is an epic spell. So it's well worth the spell slot. If Superb Dispelling isn't AoE then that's a huge advantage it gives. Or two epics if Xykon starts with a maximized Energy Drain.

Anyways I don't think victory is beyond Durkon here, but I also think that becoming a vampire is a real possibility as well. (after all what better way to bring Death and Destruction and to return to his homeland posthumerously then to show up as a vampire cleric of Nergal?)

Durkon could likely improvise a stake out of something to kill Malack, but Malack has a lot of tricks left as mentioned before. Durkon has a few tricks as well + there are some wild cards like V and Xykon running down the clock.

Chantelune

2013-03-02, 06:53 AM

Is there an obvious reason he hasn't cast disrupting weapon? Yes Malack should have a good will save, but he only needs to roll badly once...

Given Roy has now his weapon doing huge damages to undead by itself since the starmetal reforging, maybe Durkon feels that it would be a waste of spell slot ?

Winter

2013-03-02, 07:07 AM

Mass Death Ward is likely to burn off one level 9 spell.

Redcloak does not use Energy Drains or Enervation. And I am very, VERY sure Xykon isn't going to attempt to use negative energy spells on an undead. No matter what, Mass Death Ward makes no difference vs. Redcloak/Xykon if you're an undead yourself.

Malack vs. Xykon is a fight that ends with Malack-ashes within three rounds. No matter the vampire template, if you are a level 11 or 13 vs. an epic sorcerer, you're dust. He's just going to spam Meteor-swarms like he spammed Energy Drains against Dorukan, maybe preceded with a Superb Dispelling.

Emmit Svenson

2013-03-02, 08:59 AM

Keep in mind you cannot crit an undead...

Oh, that's right. Pathfinder player here.

....The Giant is a big fan of people winning or losing fights based on the merits of their character; people very rarely simply "Lose" fights, they fail due to some flaw in their character (Usually pride.) Sure, there are exceptions, but most of those are either comedic, or minor characters, or part of a back-and-forth sequence that gets interrupted by something else.

Durkon, meanwhile, does not have that kind of flaw. He is exactly what he presents himself as: tough, unyielding, almost elemental Dwarf. He wastes even less on pride than he does on false humility. In the fight with Malak, he's been focused, intelligent and thorough.

Durkon got into it to save an ally, didn't break it off or negotiate terms because of iron-clad principles, and stayed in it when he was losing to avoid endangering his friends.

I agree these demonstrate strength of character rather than character flaws. But sometimes in this strip, being a hero gets you killed--especially when you rush into battle against a bad guy in a higher weight class. (See also: Roy vs. Xykon.)

....This isn't some epic showdown with the fate of nations hanging on a thread; this is a couple of dudes who got lost and got into an accidental slug fest in the basement...

We've just discovered it's an epic showdown with the ultimate fates of at least three empires hanging on a thread--Malack's plans for the future consist of a clawed foot stamping on a living face, forever.

Furthermore, Malack to the pyramid with the intention of confronting Durkon. The meeting can only be called accidental in the sense that Malack wasn't sure when it would happen.

Kish

2013-03-02, 09:00 AM

Though if Redcloak throws in as well... yeah... Malack could just get Imploded.
As an undead creature with no Constitution, Malack is immune to spells that allow a Fortitude save and can't target objects.

Winter

2013-03-02, 10:31 AM

As an undead creature with no Constitution, Malack is immune to spells that allow a Fortitude save and can't target objects.

I am pretty sure you could explode objects with implosion as well. It works on the physical body of a being and as such also on Undead. Implosion explicitly excludes some type of creatures (incorporal) so it should work to collapse an Undead's body.
Yes, it is an arguable case but I'm far from certain Malack would be safe from this spell.

Shale

2013-03-02, 10:44 AM

Implosion explicitly affects only creatures.

bguy

2013-03-02, 11:17 AM

Malack vs. Xykon is a fight that ends with Malack-ashes within three rounds. No matter the vampire template, if you are a level 11 or 13 vs. an epic sorcerer, you're dust. He's just going to spam Meteor-swarms like he spammed Energy Drains against Dorukan, maybe preceded with a Superb Dispelling.

Wouldn't a simple Resist Energy (Fire) pretty much make Xykon's Meteor Swarms worthless?

Winter

2013-03-02, 11:23 AM

Implosion explicitly affects only creatures.

... yes, but undead are creatures.

Wouldn't a simple Resist Energy (Fire) pretty much make Xykon's Meteor Swarms worthless?

... if he casts that spell before the fight, yes. Note he does not know what might be coming at him. He might not even know Xykon can cast Level 9 spells before it's too late.

Kish

2013-03-02, 11:37 AM

I am pretty sure you could explode objects with implosion as well.

Uh...

This is not ambiguous. No, it is not an arguable case. Target: One corporeal creature/round.

If the spell was Ninth-Level Disintegrate it would say--as Disintegrate does--"when used on a creature blah blah, when used on an object blah blah."

...And one post after you make a case that hinges on Implosion supposedly working on objects, you dodge someone else pointing out that no, it doesn't. This isn't like you; what's gotten into you?

Stormlock

2013-03-02, 12:24 PM

They likely didn't want to bog down the spell with a bunch of weird rules governing what objects can and cannot be imploded. Obviously imploding a tree would be more difficult/impossible as opposed to imploding an egg. And who would want to waste a spell of that level on an object anyways? It would be like using a Meteor Swarm to break open a window. (Which, incidentally, by RAW you can't do, since it says absolutely nothing about being able to deal damage to objects.)

Implosion takes a body made of flesh and blood and bones and collapses it on itself. Malack's body is made of flesh and blood and bones. I'm not seeing much of an issue here, it makes way way more sense than being able to implode a frigging air elemental. Only a RAW stickler would say that hurling flaming rocks at a window doesn't break it and a corpse can't be imploded. Why not just have Malack conjure up Punpun while you're at it.

Winter

2013-03-02, 01:17 PM

This isn't like you; what's gotten into you?

Yes, re-reading my claim I feel utterly stupid for making it. I think it's pretty baseless and totally against RAW and also against any reason I can come up with.

stsasser

2013-03-02, 02:20 PM

Ignorant Question: Can Durkon blind Belkar to break the hold of Malack's vampire gaze...or at least, prevent its repetition?

My apologies if this has been addressed before.

Shale

2013-03-02, 02:44 PM

Being blind would prevent Malack from re-applying the gaze, but Durkon doesn't seem to have any spells prepared that would break the Domination effect without killing Malack anyway.

Emmit Svenson

2013-03-02, 06:55 PM

Ouch.

The pendulum swings to Malack, hard.

Can't see there's much Durkon could do at this point. He still hasn't presented his holy symbol to make Malack recoil, so there's that. Then again, he might have failed his Knowledge: Religion check to know that's even possible. He should be able to blast Malack with every spell slot he has left as cure wounds spells, without even needing to make a to-hit roll. But with Malack at full hit points, fast healing five points a round and gaining temporary hit points each time he drains constitution, that's a tough race for the dwarf to win.

Malack may not need the two ace cards had expected: Silence and Shatter.

Mr. Scruffy has been conspicuously absent, so I expect he's doing the Timmy's-down-the-well routine with the rest of the Order. If he's actually trying to bring only Roy, that could cause a significant delay. Will reinforcements arrive too late? It will be over, one way or the other, very soon.

Stormlock

2013-03-02, 06:59 PM

Spells with somatic components aren't castable in a grapple anyways. And given that durkon has dropped his hammer and shield, I'd say at this point he's not just grappled, but outright pinned. He's totally helpless.

Chantelune

2013-03-02, 07:02 PM

Well, as mention in the strip topic, Thor's Might might be one way to get out of the grappling. Sure, the roof is too low, but I'd think it's still better for Durkon to risk it than just waiting to get turned into a vampire. Malack's last sentence about a compromise can be understood as his intent to make Durkon his child.

Beside this, I see very little way for Durkon to turn the tables again. He did well in that fight, but he's running out of options.

As for another one to come and help, I think V might be the best hope Durkon has, if she managed to get over her current issues and happen to stumble there. But another draining interupted that way might feel a bit much as this is how Belkar was saved.

Emmit Svenson

2013-03-02, 07:07 PM

Thor's Might to escape the hold and/or squish Malack against the ceiling would be awesome enough that I'd forgive the minor rule problem of grapples preventing spells with somatic components from being cast. After all, this is Thor's Might, not Righteous Might...maybe it's a verbal only spell!

Nah, Durkon's totally getting vamped.

Forum Explorer

2013-03-03, 12:00 AM

Redcloak does not use Energy Drains or Enervation. And I am very, VERY sure Xykon isn't going to attempt to use negative energy spells on an undead. No matter what, Mass Death Ward makes no difference vs. Redcloak/Xykon if you're an undead yourself.

Malack vs. Xykon is a fight that ends with Malack-ashes within three rounds. No matter the vampire template, if you are a level 11 or 13 vs. an epic sorcerer, you're dust. He's just going to spam Meteor-swarms like he spammed Energy Drains against Dorukan, maybe preceded with a Superb Dispelling.

I'm not talking about Malack vs Xykon. I'm talking the Order vs Xykon. Redcloak does use harm spells so that'd help a little.

Yeah Malack doesn't really have the tools to target Xykon. It'd be a cool fight still.

I think Durkon is going to be vamped as well.

Flame of Anor

2013-03-03, 12:09 AM

Personally, I don't think Durkon will end up turned. First, for plot reasons: it's not a climactic enough moment for Durkon's permadeath--which, given he's the Order's cleric, is what it would mean. Second, there simply haven't been as many clever twists and turns as Rich usually gives us in major battles.

Mando Knight

2013-03-03, 12:16 AM

Personally, I don't think Durkon will end up turned. First, for plot reasons: it's not a climactic enough moment for Durkon's permadeath--which, given he's the Order's cleric, is what it would mean.

He's supposed to return to the dwarven lands posthumously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), however, meaning that his death is pretty much as prophesied as Belkar's.

Lamech

2013-03-03, 01:20 AM

And that looks like two-three negative energy levels and some con drain for the dwarf! And 15-20 temp HP for the lizard.

Also the lizards fast healing is really showing, Durkon wasn't even able to keep any damage on him. Durkon won't have much longer before he croaks if no one comes to save him.

I think this is def time for a heroic sacrifice similar to Gandalf's. Rest of the OotS turns up and Durkon tells them to run. Durkon will even return to the world of the living!

Forum Explorer

2013-03-03, 06:27 AM

You know why didn't Malack dismiss that spell earlier?

The Pilgrim

2013-03-03, 07:00 AM

Thor's might would lead to interesting conclusions at this point of the combat. :smallamused:

sam79

2013-03-03, 07:08 AM

You know why didn't Malack dismiss that spell earlier?

According to the Giant, he was saving his "trump card", hoping to win without needed it.

According to FukinAkira, if he had done so before Durkon was grappled, the Dwarf could have responded with a standard Death Ward, to which he would have had no answer.

I think these posts were both made somewhere in the main thread, but I don't have the patience to find and link them. Sorry. The Giant's is in Phatasm's archive thread anyway.

Chantelune

2013-03-03, 07:16 AM

You know why didn't Malack dismiss that spell earlier?

Best do this when it might make a critical difference in the fight. If Malack dispeled MDW before that, Durkon wouldn't have come anywhere near him and kept a safe distance to avoid this very situation.

This was the best move on Malack's part, letting Durkon grow confident enough to get in close combat, allowing Malack to grapple him and then dispelling MDW.

Seharvepernfan

2013-03-03, 07:29 AM

Shenanigans on that tail! Malack has no legs, it's almost official.

Winter

2013-03-03, 07:39 AM

Shenanigans on that tail! Malack has no legs, it's almost official.

I think it is official. He's some lizardfolk-snakeman-thing. The ensaring in addition with the lack of legs (which could have been "due to art" up to this point) makes it pretty clear there are no legs.

Rorrik

2013-03-03, 06:56 PM

Good ol' Durkon's not getting out this one on his own. I agree that another rescue would be corny, and given that the snake can dominate most of them anyway probably not successful. Best I can hope for the valiant dwarf is the aforementioned Gandalf scenario.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-03-03, 09:27 PM

Wow, was I wrong.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-03-03, 09:32 PM

So what would people's tactics be as Malack in this fight considering that he appears to have won initiative? I say:

Round 1: Divine Power to give me a ludicrous strength bonus when combined with vampire + lizardman str bonuses.

Round 2+: Grapple, pin, and suck him dry.

It took longer than I expected to get there but... :smallfrown:

skaddix

2013-03-03, 09:44 PM

Congrats the end is as you said

ThePhantom

2013-03-03, 09:44 PM

Well, the fight is over now.:smallfrown:

Cuthalion

2013-03-03, 09:54 PM

Yep. Though I wish the fight went on, with Durkon being controlled to attack Malack.

Emmit Svenson

2013-03-03, 11:11 PM

The fight to the death is over.

The fight for dominance shall soon commence.

I'd say rest in peace, Durkon. But you shan't.

Crusher

2013-03-03, 11:51 PM

Well, that's that.

Since we're getting to the end of this book and the next one is going to be around the Dwarven Homelands, I guess in hindisght it should have been obvious Durkon had to kick the bucket soon but I still didn't see it coming.

I'm curious where we go from here, though. With Durkon out, the Order has no hope of standing up to Team Evil or even a full-strength Linear Guild. It occurs to me that maybe Team Evil isn't going to put in an appearance at the Pyramid after all. They'd pretty much wipe the floor with the Order which wouldn't be much fun and given the circumstances I'm not even sure the Linear Guild will stick around. Sure, the Order is in tatters but no one but Malack really knows that, so maybe Nale will chime in with "You know, that was pretty painful but there *was* another gate up in the North..." and they'll decide to head there instead.

Even so, the Order really needs to pick up another healer from somewhere (Elan is *not* going to cut it) and since it seems unlikely Rich will just parachute in a replacement healer its hard to see where they'll come from. I guess in theory Malack could throw in his lot with them, but Durkon was the only one he really liked. Or Malack could send a vamped and controlled Durkon back to the Order, but Belkar would sniff him out pretty quickly, and we've already got one secretly controlled mole in the party in V, adding a second would be silly.

The person in the main thread who somewhat wishfully commented that maybe Malack will just Raise Durkon instead of vamping him seems like a bizarrely plausible idea given the lack of alternatives. Just seems hard to rationalize.

Instead, I see the depleted Order struggling through the rest of the Pyramid while Team Evil (which we find out was never heading for Girard's Gate) and the Linear Guild race to the Northern Gate. Team Evil and the Linear Guild have it out at the next Gate, damaging both sides enough that the Order is able to actually do some good. Meanwhile, the Order has a side quest to find a replacement healer which lasts just long enough for us to meet the replacement and get to know them enough so they don't feel to awkward.

Meh. Feels a little clumsy. Seems like if the story was gonna go that way, Rich would have introduced a high-ish level cleric somewhere recently. Like if the emissary from the Free City of Doom had been a high level cleric they could have bumped into her. Helgya? Someone from Azure City?

I just don't know where this is gonna go. Or what they're gonna do with Belkar. Both of them getting vamped would be pretty catastrophic. I do think, however, that we're going to start seeing characters die now that the end-game is in sight.

Bird

2013-03-04, 12:30 AM

Even so, the Order really needs to pick up another healer from somewhere (Elan is *not* going to cut it)

Paladins heal. I think the order joining up with Lien and O-Chul is more likely than a new cleric member.

Edit: With his poor Charisma and fighter levels, O-Chul might not even be a better healer than Elan -- but I bet the guy has nice Wisdom, and he'd be much better than nothing.

SaintRidley

2013-03-04, 12:39 AM

Paladins heal. I think the order joining up with Lien and O-Chul is more likely than a new cleric member.

Edit: With his poor Charisma and fighter levels, O-Chul might not even be a better healer than Elan -- but I bet the guy has nice Wisdom, and he'd be much better than nothing.

There's also the wildcard of a certain somebody from Start of Darkness who has yet to join the strip. Who knows where she might fall in this whole mess.

Flame of Anor

2013-03-04, 12:40 AM

Oh crap...he actually did it...

Forum Explorer

2013-03-04, 01:01 AM

Goodbye Durkon you (hopefully) will be missed. :smallfrown:

So odds on being vamped? Or is that automatic no matter what Malack chooses?

Belkar is going to die too. Looks like Malack scores a double kill. (though he might keep him dominated for a while.)

I'm hoping for the return of the Cleric of Loki! If only for him to say no to helping the Order because he's scared.

Winter

2013-03-04, 02:09 AM

So odds on being vamped? Or is that automatic no matter what Malack chooses?

100% unless Malack gets disturbed. Malack just said he was making new spawn and was willing to settle for Belkar, whom he barely knows. Durkon, who he somewhat likes, is a much better choice. He won't pass it up.

Forum Explorer

2013-03-04, 02:30 AM

100% unless Malack gets disturbed. Malack just said he was making new spawn and was willing to settle for Belkar, whom he barely knows. Durkon, who he somewhat likes, is a much better choice. He won't pass it up.

I agree but not really what I'm asking. I'm asking is there some process or just the act of killing via blood drain = vampire.

Feddlefew

2013-03-04, 02:36 AM

I agree but not really what I'm asking. I'm asking is there some process or just the act of killing via blood drain = vampire.

I'm pretty certain that it's the later. I think I vaguely remember something about unattended new vampires being able to spread like a plague through populated areas because of that, but I don't know if that's from D&D or something else.

Winter

2013-03-04, 03:13 AM

I agree but not really what I'm asking. I'm asking is there some process or just the act of killing via blood drain = vampire.

According to RAW Drain = Vampire. If you get to be a full vampire or just a weaker spawn depends on the victim's HD. According to the rules it takes 1d4 days for the new vampire/spawn to form after the victim is slain by the draining ability of the vampire.

If Durkon gets to be a vampire, I am pretty sure Rich will ignore the 1d4 days, it'll happen in the next comic (which, incidentally, will be the last of Rich's 9-comics-drive).