What is the point of spellwarp sniper?

[silverwolfer]

I understand the fact you get to change a reflex save into a range touch attack with no such benefits.

But if you are using fireball, does that just make a really nasty ray, or does it still explode on impact and everyone but the one hit by the ray get the reflex save?

[Story]

I believe it changes it to a single target ray. Though you can apply Split Ray to increase that.

Anyway, it doesn't look too useful in general, but there are some decent combos, like using it on Sandblast for no save stunning.

[Psyren]

It turns it into a ray. Single target.

The point is spell damage + sneak damage = tons of d6 being rolled. Plus you're probably a rogue too so you're also the skillmonkey. (Or face, for Sorcerers.)

[kardar233]

It also means that AoE spells with rider effects (like, say, Wings of Flurry) can be used as a single-target no-save disable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In addition to the previous comments, it can allow you to avoid friendly fire in tight quarters.

[AntiTrust]

It turns it into a ray. Single target.

The point is spell damage + sneak damage = tons of d6 being rolled. Plus you're probably a rogue too so you're also the skillmonkey. (Or face, for Sorcerers.)

You also turn it into a weapon-like spell which means you can crit with it. Downside of course means you can miss with it too.

[mregecko]

removing the reflex save has always been the point for me. No-save sandblast is insanity.

[TuggyNE]

Anyway, it doesn't look too useful in general, but there are some decent combos, like using it on Sandblast for no save stunning.

But only for one round! :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

You use it with spells like Wings of Flurry to remove the save mostly, as said before. Touch attacks tend to be easier to land than Reflex fails so that's the main drive. And yeah, combine with Hunter's Eye through Unseen Seer (for instance) and you're adding ~10d6+ to your spells provided you're blinking/invisible/whatever.

[Story]

But only for one round! :smalltongue:

Fortunately it's only first level so you can easily quicken it.

[limejuicepowder]

On a related note, is there a way to get in to spellwarp sniper without losing caster levels?

Unseen seer gives SA, but the skill reqs mean you'll probably have to dip anyway.

[Mcdt2]

Going into it as a spellthief/Arcane whatever with master spellthief would work well, I think. Wonder what would be the best choice? most likely wizard, but there might be somthign better out there.

[Story]

On a related note, is there a way to get in to spellwarp sniper without losing caster levels?

Unseen seer gives SA, but the skill reqs mean you'll probably have to dip anyway.

The only ways I know of are Assassin's Stance and Magelord, both very feat intensive. And Magelord requires some lenience to get into without losing levels. Divine Oracle entry should work by RAI, but it doesn't work by RAW since it doesn't technically give "Evasion".

Edit: Unseen Seer would work great (the skill prereqs are easy to get around) but it looks like it only increases Sneak Attack, it doesn't actually grant it.

[Psyren]

Honestly, losing one caster level isn't the end of the world. You're still beating up the {insert T3 or lower class} and taking his lunch money.

[TroubleBrewing]

Just built a Cleric/Assassin/Spellwarp Sniper/Mystic Theurge build that gets 9th level cleric/wizard spells and 4th level Assassin spells.

SS is a pretty good class. Lose 1 caster level, take 1 prerequisite feat, get good abilities, and 5/5 casting progression? Sign me up.

[Venger]

On a related note, is there a way to get in to spellwarp sniper without losing caster levels?

Unseen seer gives SA, but the skill reqs mean you'll probably have to dip anyway.

while there is technically a way to enter without "losing" caster levels, it involves using unique progression, such as the assassin or fatemaker, who has no spells that you'd actually want to spellwarp.


The only ways I know of are Assassin's Stance and Magelord, both very feat intensive. And Magelord requires some lenience to get into without losing levels. Divine Oracle entry should work by RAI, but it doesn't work by RAW since it doesn't technically give "Evasion".

Edit: Unseen Seer would work great (the skill prereqs are easy to get around) but it looks like it only increases Sneak Attack, it doesn't actually grant it.

I actually wrote out a very detailed post about how to qualify for magelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14763480&postcount=357) with enough time to actually finish the darn class.

it is frighteningly difficult to qualify for, and itself requires losing at least one CL to obtain evasion (since a strict RAW interpretation invalidates divine oracle) and even if you did want divine oracle, that's yet another feat on top of the four magelord requires.

unseen seer does indeed not grand any precision damage, so it's out for this

[Eldariel]

I've used Spellwarp Sniper in Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer > Spellwarp Sniper. It works quite well as both, skill monkey and caster, though of course losing caster level is hardly optimal.

It's worth noting that Hunter's Eye spell gets you SA whether or not you have any.

[Last Laugh]

I actually wrote out a very detailed post about how to qualify for magelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14763480&postcount=357) with enough time to actually finish the darn class.



Erm, why do you need improved initiative twice to enter mage lord?

[danzibr]

You also turn it into a weapon-like spell which means you can crit with it. Downside of course means you can miss with it too.
This is the one I was going to say. Crit on a fireball!

[Spuddles]

On a related note, is there a way to get in to spellwarp sniper without losing caster levels?

Unseen seer gives SA, but the skill reqs mean you'll probably have to dip anyway.

Martial Study to pick up Assassin's Stance. You can then Psy Reform/Reshuffle those feats, since Spellwarp Sniper will qualify for itself.

[nedz]

Erm, why do you need improved initiative twice to enter mage lord?

Magelord is like that :smalltongue:

[mattie_p]

I actually wrote out a very detailed post about how to qualify for magelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14763480&postcount=357) with enough time to actually finish the darn class.


Erm, why do you need improved initiative twice to enter mage lord?

Should probably be heighten spell at level 1, as it is a prerequisite for earth spell. Improved init comes at level 1 (martial wiz 1). However, need a flaw to fit in earth spell, as there is not normally a feat at Character Level 5. Unless I am missing something? I did, and it is fixed.

I'd suggest taking a single level of incarnate (MoI) and then taking Open Least Chakra at 6, but that requires DM interpretation as well: in regards to the specific wording of the feat. (Does the bind count against your maximum number of binds per class level? Does it give you a brand new bind, even if you couldn't bind previously?)

[Spuddles]

Earth spell should be at 3rd level. He doesn't have anything in his 3rd level slot.

[Venger]

Should probably be heighten spell at level 1, as it is a prerequisite for earth spell. Improved init comes at level 1 (martial wiz 1). However, need a flaw to fit in earth spell, as there is not normally a feat at Character Level 5. Unless I am missing something?

I'd suggest taking a single level of incarnate (MoI) and then taking Open Least Chakra at 6, but that requires DM interpretation as well: in regards to the specific wording of the feat. (Does the bind count against your maximum number of binds per class level? Does it give you a brand new bind, even if you couldn't bind previously?)

indeed it was supposed to be heighten spell. I was switching stuff around and accidentally left that in twice. fixed.


Earth spell should be at 3rd level. He doesn't have anything in his 3rd level slot.

you are correct. initially, I'd started with wizard levels to see if I could wrangle skills in time with able learner, but found myself unable to do so in a timely fashion. I left earth spell at wiz 3 by mistake and forgot to move it to character lvl 3

[Darrin]

I actually wrote out a very detailed post about how to qualify for magelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14763480&postcount=357) with enough time to actually finish the darn class.


Wizard 5/Spelldancer 2 gets evasion as a class ability. But that's 8 prereq feats... UGH. No room for early-entry shenanigans. How about:

Wizard 7/Spelldancer 2/Magelord 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Feats:
1) Endurance, Dodge (Martial Wizard), Improved Initiative (Human)
3) Combat Casting
5) Mobility (Martial Wizard)
6) Spell Mastery
9) Signature Spell

Nope, still need two feats in there, Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot.

Shadow Creature plus LA Buyoff might work better.



it is frighteningly difficult to qualify for, and itself requires losing at least one CL to obtain evasion (since a strict RAW interpretation invalidates divine oracle) and even if you did want divine oracle, that's yet another feat on top of the four magelord requires.


I disagree. Prescient Sense identifies itself as a form of evasion by RAW:



This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion ability used by monks and rogues.


(emphasis added)


Martial Study to pick up Assassin's Stance. You can then Psy Reform/Reshuffle those feats, since Spellwarp Sniper will qualify for itself.

A non-martial adept can't pick up Assassin's Stance until ECL 10 (Initiator Level = 5), more likely ECL 12 when he gets an open feat. Martial Wizard 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5 should work, taking Martial Study wherever and Martial Stance at 10. Maybe finish off with Unseen Seer 5.

[mattie_p]

I disagree. Prescient Sense identifies itself as a form of evasion by RAW:


This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion ability used by monks and rogues.

(emphasis added)

I have to disagree with you, here. There are numerous examples where feats or features count as other features, by RAW.


Special: Midnight Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.


Special: Desert Wind Dodge can be used in place of Dodge to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability.

Without that explicit text, it does not qualify.

[Venger]

I disagree. Prescient Sense identifies itself as a form of evasion by RAW

well, I agree, I think you should be able to use divine oracle's prescient sense as well, I'm just saying some people won't allow it based on the rationale mattie_p cites.

[Story]

That's why I said that it doesn't work by RAW, but you could probably get it allowed in practice.

[KillianHawkeye]

In general, I think I'd rather have the ability to turn ray spells into an AoE rather than doing it the other way around. Spells like Fireball are balanced on the assumption that they're going to be used to hit multiple enemies.

[limejuicepowder]

In general, I think I'd rather have the ability to turn ray spells into an AoE rather than doing it the other way around. Spells like Fireball are balanced on the assumption that they're going to be used to hit multiple enemies.

If I was facing one strong opponent, I'd rather my fireball not allow a save. There are also numerous tactile situations where a radius of death is not going to work out very well.

The best part of radius-->rays has been pointed out though: getting effects that would normally offer a save to automatically work.

[BRC]

In general, I think I'd rather have the ability to turn ray spells into an AoE rather than doing it the other way around. Spells like Fireball are balanced on the assumption that they're going to be used to hit multiple enemies.
Well...

Assuming you've got some allies in melee, how many baddies getting hit justifies hitting your allies as well?
You're fighting a big nasty Troll, for example. You could throw a Fireball, your Rogue could dodge, but your Fighter will probably get hit, and the party Cleric is right behind him ready to step in and heal.Throwing a fireball is problematic.

Fireball is a bad example because Scorching Ray exists, but you get my point.

[nedz]

Assuming you've got some allies in melee, how many baddies getting hit justifies hitting your allies as well?
You're fighting a big nasty Troll, for example. You could throw a Fireball, your Rogue could dodge, but your Fighter will probably get hit, and the party Cleric is right behind him ready to step in and heal.Throwing a fireball is problematic.

Aahh, the theory of differential spellcasting — "But I did them way more damage than I did to us" — can be a hard sell.