[PF] any race or trait that gives mage hand?

[Blyte]

trying to find an easy way to take a vivisectionist alchemist into arcane trickster, without having to eat a feat and take arcane talent for mage hand.

any other thoughts on the viability of the combo are welcome as well.

it seems that straight alchy would be more powerful until the 10th level ability of the trickster.

[Baroncognito]

Two-world magic looks like it could work.

[Tsriel]

www.d20pfsrd.com

Try searching "mage hand & trait" at the above site's search bar. It's been a few weeks, but I thought I saw something while building an elven magus having to do with cantrips. :smallbiggrin:

[Dark.Revenant]

There is a trait that gives you a cantrip, called Magical Talent.

[Tsriel]

There is a trait that gives you a cantrip, called Magical Talent.

That's the one! :smallcool:

[grarrrg]

trying to find an easy way to take a vivisectionist alchemist into arcane trickster, without having to eat a feat and take arcane talent for mage hand.

any other thoughts on the viability of the combo are welcome as well.

it seems that straight alchy would be more powerful until the 10th level ability of the trickster.

Technically, the Alchemist can NOT qualify for Arcane Trickster EVER.
This is due to the Alchemist not being a "caster", Arcane or otherwise.
Arcane Trickster: "Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher."

If your GM will allow Alchemist to count as an Arcane Caster, then we have a couple options.
Magical Talent Trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-talent): Choose a level 0 spell, you may cast it 1/day as a Spell-Like
Two-World Magic Trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic): Add ANY 0th level spell to your list (if you don't have Cantrips it becomes a 1st level spell)
Samsaran Race (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran): Mystic Past Life Race-Trait lets you add spells to your spell list.
Pathfinder Savant PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/pathfinder-savant): need to take at least 2 levels, then you can add ANY spell EVER to your spell list.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why on earth would you even WANT to use Arcane Trickster on a single class Viv Alchemist? The base class is just plain better....

AT has the nifty capstone ability, but that's a hell of a lot of subpar levels to pay for it....

Even if you can start at AT 10....what the hell "spells" are you going to use it with as an alchemist, anyway? The big money spells for that feature are things like Magic Missile (no failure chance!) and Stone Call (ditto, but in a huuuuge area!). Alchemist list is limited almost entirely to self-buffing stuff, not offensive spells.

[Blyte]

ahh, that is what I had feared. we were sitting around the table and talking about the arcane trickster and the fastest ways to qualify for entry and it seemed the viv alchy was the fastest way to do it.

having never played an alchy, I wasn't certain if they had DD spells or not... I guess I need to look at their spell list a little harder.

if they did qualify as a caster, it seems they would be the fastest class to qualify.

but ya, it does seem that the base alchy is more powerful, until the capstone of AT, which is pretty strong, IF THEY HAD A FIRE BALL....

edit.. I suppose the only viable option to take with this would be the samsaran, adding offensive spells to their list.

[grarrrg]

ahh, that is what I had feared. we were sitting around the table and talking about the arcane trickster and the fastest ways to qualify for entry and it seemed the viv alchy was the fastest way to do it.

if they did qualify as a caster, it seems they would be the fastest class to qualify.

Fastest entry requires at least 6 levels.
There are currently no combinations that allow entry with only 5 levels (or lower).

The "typical" entry is along the lines of Wizard 4/"rogue" 1/[PrC with Sneak Attack] 1
"rogue" can be replaced with a variety of things, so long as it has +1d6 Sneak.

As an alternative, there is also this: Sandman Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/sandman) 5/"rogue" 1

And while it is slower qualifying, you CAN qualify with a single class Sandman Bard 10.
That way NO casting is lost.

Either way, Bards do have some decent Direct Damage spells to use the AT capstone with.

[Blyte]

an alchy can enter at 4th if the DM rules them a "caster"

[NamelessNPC]

Alchemist "spells" are buffs, you won't get anything out of AT

[Blyte]

this has been covered


I suppose the only viable option to take with this would be the samsaran, adding offensive spells to their list.

[Paul H]

Hi

I'm doing a Halfling Magus/Rogue build for AT. Won't meet prereq's until 7th lvl, though I'll be waiting until 9th to go AT (5th lvl Magus bonus is too good to miss).

Build will be Magus 5/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster xxxx.

Mebbe not the most powerful option, but he's 5th lvl now (Rog 3/Magus 2), but has +10 attack with +1 Scimitar, D4+6 dam! (Excluding Magus Bonus & Sneak).

Thanks
Paul H

[StreamOfTheSky]

this has been covered

Even if he did that, he would still probably have to follow the mechanics of extracts, which makes direct damage spells awkward to use...

And again, he'd be better served sticking to Alchemist in that case.

[Blyte]

I agree, it would be awkward trying to explain that you can drink a potion of magic missile...

anyhow, I've at least learned a lot about alchemists, just tossing this idea around. thanks for the comments all.

it's unfortunate that you can only get the capstone of AT further into levels than my group ever plays... and it's a very unrewarding class until that big pay off anyhow.

edit.... hmmm

what about a ninja?

ninja(3) for 2 dice sneak and they can cast a "spell like ability that functions as mirror image" which is a 2nd level arcane spell, and wizard(1) or sorcerer(1) so that the caster levels from AT don't go to waste.

that would seem to be another 4th level qualifier, if a 2nd level spell like ability would qualify as casting a 2nd level arcane spell.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Then you'd lose advancement of all ninja class abilities except sneak attack and face lower BAB and HD. Mostly for a CL progression you'll get no benefit from.

AT is mostly worth it for the capstone, if you don't plan to get that high a level, there's not much point making one at all. Let alone a build that's not actually benefiting from a bulk of its class features.

IMO the best AT build is either:

1 in Mindchemist Viv. (Internal?) Alchemist
4 in Wizard (Teleport Conj. or Admixture Evoker)
1 in Sleepless Detective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/sleepless-detective) (your familiar gives Alertness)
10 in AT
*back to Wiz*

or

3 in Mindchemist Viv. (Internal?) Alchemist
3 in Wizard (Teleport Conj. or Admixture Evoker)
10 in AT
*back to Wiz*

[Blyte]

everything you prefaced your best AT suggestions with, can be said about your suggestions as well. Even worse, they gain access to AT at level 7 instead of 5, so their potency (Cap Stone) comes even later in their careers.

however, they are at least legit AT entries. Ninja "ticks" satisfying the casting requirement, is like to be denied at many tables.

[grarrrg]

Even worse, they gain access to AT at level 7 instead of 5, so their potency (Cap Stone) comes even later in their careers.

Yeah...Arcane Trickster entry before level 7 (qualify at 6) really can't be helped.
Rogue/Ninja/Vivisectionist all stack with each other, meaning any 2 levels still only gets you 1d6 Sneak Attack, and every PrC (Sneak Attack or not) needs at least level 5 before you can take it (usually due to Skill Reqs as those are harder to bypass).

So yeah, _if_ Alchemist counted as an Arcane Caster, then it could be the quickest entry, but it doesn't, and as has been stated, Alchemists don't have the best 'Spell' List for Trickster anyway.