Barbarian vs fighter

[about50heavies]

Which class is generally better both in and out of combat

[Baroncognito]

Barbarian gets more skill points.

[gurgleflep]

Barbarian gets more skill points.

Yes, but the fighter gets more feats.

I've played as both, and I find the barbarian to be a more simple play. He's got quite a few skills as well.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Out of Combat Barb all the way.

Trapkiller ACF-Find traps with Survival at -4 disarm with attack rolls.

2 more skill points, Survival, Listen as class skills. We could easily assume identical identical skills for a Fighter and Barb except for Barb maxing those two skills that aren't on Fighter's class list (the lists are otherwise identical) that's a big out of combat utility advantage.

[Fates]

In my experience, Barbarians have greater capacity for straight out damage...but then, that really depends on choice of prestige class. I don't think hardly anyone really takes enough levels in fighter for it to be considered.

[Fyermind]

In core, the barbarian is generally stronger. It's rage lets it get more out of power attack, and what it lacks in finesse, it doesn't care about. there aren't that many good fighter feats in core anyway.

Compare a tripper fighter (decent battlefield control, fairly low damage) to a power attack barbarian (good damage not much else).

Outside of core, fighters start to be great a combinations of high powered feats (knockdown + demoralize is my favorite fighter build, though large size + knockback + dungeoncrasher is right up there). The barbarian on the other hand gets whirling frenzy + ettercap berzerker (+6 con, +4 str, extra attack, +2 ac, +2 ref while raging) and pounce and improved trip. All for two levels and a feat.

Barbarian's extra skill points and better class skills mean it might be able to do something other than combat, but don't get your hopes up too much.

Overall the barbarian is a tier 4. The fighter is a tier 4 only with dungeoncrasher and zhentarim soldier.

[Urpriest]

In-combat, Barbarian can deal more damage. In either case, melee characters in 3.5 will usually take several classes before entering prestige classes, so a Barbarian will often have a few Fighter levels, or vice versa depending on your perspective.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In Combat Barb definetly wins at low levels.

Rage 1/day is better than a feat.

Wolf Totem gets you improved trip at level 2 without meeting prereqs. So, if you don't want anything else that requires combat expertise that's worth two feats, plus you could save a stat point by only having 12 rather than the 13 a fighter needs for expertise, or you could dump int and still have the same skill points as a fighter.

Note: Wolf/trapkiller has compatability issues.

At higher levels and high OP you could probably select enough high OP feats to outclass a Barb at anything but charging, high OP feats are better than all of Barbs later stuff, that's why most Barb builds have 2 fighter levels.

[Kuulvheysoon]

In Combat Barb definetly wins at low levels.

Rage 1/day is better than a feat.

Wolf Totem gets you improved trip at level 2 without meeting prereqs. So, if you don't want anything else that requires combat expertise that's worth two feats, plus you could save a stat point by only having 12 rather than the 13 a fighter needs for expertise, or you could dump int and still have the same skill points as a fighter.

Note: Wolf/trapkiller has compatability issues.

At higher levels and high OP you could probably select enough high OP feats to outclass a Barb at anything but charging, high OP feats are better than all of Barbs later stuff, that's why most Barb builds have 2 fighter levels.

Goliath Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6 with Knockback says hello.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Goliath Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6 with Knockback says hello.

A strong build, but I personally consider 6 the beginning of mid-level, once we're (ab)using Shock Trooper it's a whole new ballgame. Pre-Shock Trooper Dungeoncrasher is very unreliable IMO.

[Frozen_Feet]

Out of combat barbarian wins easily. Fighter feats give nothing approaching same level of utility as +2 skillpoints. To get even, a fighter would need to spend their non-fighter feats for skills, which prevents them from gaining much lead in combat until late levels.

In core, barbarians and fighters are roughly equal in combat. Outside of core, fighter pulls ahead at later levels, because non-core fears actually contain some neat stuff. Barbarians get equally big numbers, but don't become any more versatile.

[Darius Kane]

Tier 4 > Tier 5.
That was easy.

[Eldariel]

Let's see:
- Barbarian has better tripping capability (Strength from Rage, easy access to the feat without Int)
- Barbarian more damage (higher Strength & al, Pounce as class feature, ability to turn once with Charge later, extra attack from Whirling Frenzy and Charging Cleave with Street Fighter)
- The two classes have equivalentish fear (Zhentarim vs. Intimidating Rage; Barbarian can use his as Immediate Action out of turn order at range tho so slightly in their favor)
- Barbarian has superior out-of-combat utility (Intimidation is about equivalent, Trapkiller > Dungeoncrasher, Listen, more skill points)
- Fighter can branch out in-combat more easily and has the feats to shell out for an AoO/Trip build covering for all the minutiae.
- Fighter has Resolute to make their Will-saves awesome and Overwhelming Attack for some AoO setups.

Fighter has some in-combat versatility from the feats but they have no particular path open that Barbarians can't also take and given Barbarians have enough feats to be AoO Tripper Chargers, which is basically the best of all worlds so while Fighters get more, they can just get few extra tricks into those trades, which Barbarians can more than compensate for with bigger numbers. Barbarian also has PRC support and overall they tend to have more tools for out-of-combat contributions so I'd say they're pretty comfortably superior.

[Lans]

Fighters are better at intimidation with the Zheratim sublevels.

[Story]

Fighters can also dip ToB maneuvers via Martial Study. But then again, if ToB is allowed, why on earth are you playing a Fighter?

[Shining Wrath]

Barbarians are fast and get to rage. Get a barbarian in behind the enemy lines among the squishies and he can go to town.
Fighters get so many feats so can become specialists in something useful. Plus the minor advantage of heavy armor.

Outside combat, barbarians have more skill points and more class skills.

[JimboG]

In my opinion, assuming an equal optimized Barbarian and Fighter were duking it out to the death in an arena, a Barbarian has a numbers advantage over the Fighter and probably won't be afraid of the Fighters damage output. However, the Fighter has the ability to harness a lot more options than the Barbarian and is possibly capable of disabling the Barbarian in some fashion more often than the reverse. If he can do that to force the Barbarian to use up his rage (or make his rage irrelevant, e.g. blindness through Dirty Trick) he should have the upper hand. If the Barbarian can manage to overcome the Fighter's options and tricks, he'll most likely beat him by shear force of numbers.

Out of combat they are a little different, but I believe they are equally humbled by most other classes.

[Flickerdart]

Out of combat, a barbarian can, while a fighter cannot:

Listen to detect sneaking enemies.
Gather food for the party and guide them through wilderness with Survival.
Cover ground more quickly due to fast movement.
Forge ahead through trap-filled rooms and survive better thanks to better HP, DR, and Trap Sense.


Additionally, a barbarian is a lot more scary than a fighter - Zhentarim sub levels are well and good, but Intimidating Rage is absolutely fantastic.

[Darius Kane]

Fighters can also dip ToB maneuvers via Martial Study.
Barbarians can too.

[Story]

Barbarians can too.

But not with bonus feats like Fighters can.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Barbarians can too.

Ah, but then they'd have to use up their valuable General feats, while Martial Study counts as a Fighter Bonus Feat.

[Darius Kane]

But not with bonus feats like Fighters can.
But they still can have only 3.


Ah, but then they'd have to use up their valuable General feats, while Martial Study counts as a Fighter Bonus Feat.
But unlike the Fighter, a Barbarian has something besides feats. And the Fighter can take Martial Study only 3 times.

[Dr.Epic]

Which class is generally better both in and out of combat

Well, I think the barbarian can turn any situation into combat so I'm not too sure one of those matters.:smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

Are we including Thug?

[Eldariel]

Fighters are better at intimidation with the Zheratim sublevels.

I just covered that. No, they're not; Intimidating Rage is a very powerful intimidation feat which can be combined with Immediate Rage or Ferocity ACF to get an immediate/free action intimidation that can be taken flat-footed.

Both offer different things far as intimidation goes but while more expensive, the Barbarian version is also more powerful. Of course, the combination is the best on that front.

[Kuulvheysoon]

But unlike the Fighter, a Barbarian has something besides feats. And the Fighter can take Martial Study only 3 times.

Assuming both take the maximum of 3 Martial Studies, a Barbarian would have only 1 more general feat slot (assuming Power Attack, and Intimidating/Immediate Rage), while the Fighter would have all of his general feat slots open, a well as most of his Fighter Bonus Feats (AKA his class features).

While I agree with you that the Barbarian is more powerful in general, Fighters make better Martial Studiers (Students?).

[Lans]

I just covered that. No, they're not; Intimidating Rage is a very powerful intimidation feat which can be combined with Immediate Rage or Ferocity ACF to get an immediate/free action intimidation that can be taken flat-footed.

Both offer different things far as intimidation goes but while more expensive, the Barbarian version is also more powerful. Of course, the combination is the best on that front.

I was referring to the out of combat extended intimidation so you can intimidate someone, leave and not have them immediately go to their boss/cops, and them being better number wise from getting skill focus at third level.

Immediate rage+intimidating rage+imperious command is pretty deep feat investment for the barbarian. Vs imperious command.

[Darius Kane]

While I agree with you that the Barbarian is more powerful in general, Fighters make better Martial Studiers (Students?).
That's nice, but not what I was arguing.

[ericgrau]

Depends on alternate class features and feats available. Generally I would mix both classes to get both those things. For example fighter 4 for feats towards shocktrooper and for melee weapon mastery later so I actually hit. Then after the fighter levels I'd go for pounce or some such. Next would come a good jump modifier, probably via items, or a source of flight. So I could overcome difficult terrain and aerial foes.

Using only the Player's Handbook & DMG they're very close in power. Even then I would mix both. I'd do barbarian 1 / fighter X for rage + fighter tree. At least until I prestige out.

Without multiclassing, again it depends on what feats and ACF you can get. But the high op builds require fighter feats for fastest entry, and to add tricks like tripping. In PH+DMG only likewise the fighter is a hair stronger. The fighter tree almost keeps up with rage and heavy armor plus whatever trick is done with the remaining feats brings him over the barbarian both in direct melee and in special tricks. Survival and listen are sometimes useful, but usually not.

I think fighters tend to get more flak for being the poster boys for melee in general, but actually it's pretty close all around.

[Axier]

I feel like this calls for two people to build heavily optimized builds and have a competition, including an out of combat phase where their outside capabilities are tested, followed by a swarm fight, how well they can handle other enemies, preferably large amounts in a CR appropriate for their build, and then, a match against each-other.

I can see it now, the fighter will fail the out of combat phase, die in the ambush, and the barbarian will have no one to fight.

The barbarian will traverse the traps and notice the approaching tucker'd kobold army, bash skulls in, avoid more traps, and then find the fighter's poor corpse, and proceed to dessicate desecrate* his corpse.

A fighter is only useful in a competent group, and then, it takes a ridiculous amount time to make them effective and relevant. I know, I have played a fighter. The only thing that made me effective was my personal roleplay skill. The only exception is if you are in a lo-op group. If you are anywhere near high-op, then a Pouncing charger build barbarian will be far more relevant.

*Edit: My English failed me.

[Flickerdart]

The barbarian will traverse the traps and notice the approaching tucker'd kobold army, bash skulls in, avoid more traps, and then find the fighter's poor corpse, and proceed to dessicate his corpse.
I didn't know this barbarian was a blue dragon.

[Fyermind]

For reference: Meet Bob the Goliath fighter. This is for people saying fighters aren't as versatile as barbarians.

Elite array: 15, 12, 14, 13, 10, 8
Adjusted ability scores: 19, 10, 16, 13, 10, 8
All ability boosts from level go to strength.
Feats and alternative class features in order of appearance:

Power Attack (1)
Improved Bullrush (F1)
Dungeoncrasher (F2)
Knockback (3)
Skill focus (Intimidate) (F3)
Combat expertise (F4)
Lasting intimidate (F5)
Shock Trooper (6)
Dungeoncrasher (F6)
Improved Trip (F8)
Knockdown (9)
Rapid intimidate (F9)

Skills: Intimidate max ranks, Balance 5 --> spot cross class, Jump max ranks

If this build continued it would start taking the normal power attack chain of feats. Leap attack, cleave, etc. It would then start taking martial stance and martial study feats to pick up some fourth and fifth level effects.

[Fates]

For reference: Meet Bob the Goliath fighter. This is for people saying fighters aren't as versatile as barbarians.

Elite array: 15, 12, 14, 13, 10, 8
Adjusted ability scores: 19, 10, 16, 13, 10, 8
All ability boosts from level go to strength.
Feats and alternative class features in order of appearance:

Power Attack (1)
Improved Bullrush (F1)
Dungeoncrasher (F2)
Knockback (3)
Skill focus (Intimidate) (F3)
Combat expertise (F4)
Lasting intimidate (F5)
Shock Trooper (6)
Dungeoncrasher (F6)
Improved Trip (F8)
Knockdown (9)
Rapid intimidate (F9)

Skills: Intimidate max ranks, Balance 5 --> spot cross class, Jump max ranks

If this build continued it would start taking the normal power attack chain of feats. Leap attack, cleave, etc. It would then start taking martial stance and martial study feats to pick up some fourth and fifth level effects.

This really doesn't prove versatility. You've just created a ninth-level character with about three tricks, all of which are only useful during combat, in a situation where you're completely aware of your opponent(s).

Also, what? You seemed to give fighter bonus feats at first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, and ninth level.

[Pickford]

Tier 4 > Tier 5.
That was easy.

Only Fighter can get Weapon Supremacy. A quick rundown on why this is better (granted only 18th lvl +):

Wielding 2h weapons in a grapple without having to make a check: Check
Allowed to take 10 on an attack roll each round: Check
Removes penalty for wielding a weapon in a grapple: Check
+5 to attack on a single attack after the first (i.e. 2nd attack can be made at full BAB): Check

Inherent bonuses from the required feats: +4 attack/+6 damage (roughly equivalent to +10 Str in combat) which is about equal to the str benefit from mighty rage...and it's always on.
edit: forgot about weapon mastery which stacks.

All a fighter has to do to completely ruin a Barbarian is grapple him (which courtesy of having 13 more feats he's able to do, easily)

[Fates]

Only Fighter can get Weapon Supremacy. A quick rundown on why this is better (granted only 18th lvl +):

Wielding 2h weapons in a grapple without having to make a check: Check
Allowed to take 10 on an attack roll each round: Check
Removes penalty for wielding a weapon in a grapple: Check
+5 to attack on a single attack after the first (i.e. 2nd attack can be made at full BAB): Check

Inherent bonuses from the required feats: +2 attack/+4 damage (roughly equivalent to +8 STR in combat) which is about equal to the str benefit from mighty rage...and it's always on.

...The issue being that you have to take 18 levels in fighter. Any sensible barbarian would already be doing massive amounts of damage by this point due to prestige classes, and would be so difficult to grapple that it wouldn't need to be able to attack with a two-handed weapon during one.

[Pickford]

...The issue being that you have to take 18 levels in fighter. Any sensible barbarian would already be doing massive amounts of damage by this point due to prestige classes, and would be so difficult to grapple that it wouldn't need to be able to attack with a two-handed weapon during one.

Where are you getting the idea that a Barbarian would have a better grapple check?

[Story]

and proceed to dessicate his corpse.

If the Barbarian is a Vampire, that might make raging difficult.

[Muktidata]

Fighters win because they can cast 9th level spells.

[Aliek]

I'm more of a fighter fan. The barbarian has its appeal, but all is lost to me after level 2, with ACFs. But then, I'm usually quite dip-heavy on my melee characters, so take this with a grain of salt(Loads of barbarian 2/fighter 4/prestige class guys)

[VanIsleKnight]

I believe Roy and Thog have already put this ancient battle between opposites to rest :smalltongue:

Are we assuming 20th level Fighter vs 20th Level Barbarian? Because mixing up class levels seems unfair.

[Frozen_Feet]

Thog and Roy are unrepresentative examples - Thog has Int penalty, meaning he loses his edge in skill points, while Roy is human and has Int bonus, meaning he actually wins over Thog in versatility.

If you assume Barbarian and Fighter that are of the same ability and species, barbarian wins.

[Killer Angel]

I didn't know this barbarian was a blue dragon.

That's why is an easy win!

[Xaragos]

I was referring to the out of combat extended intimidation so you can intimidate someone, leave and not have them immediately go to their boss/cops, and them being better number wise from getting skill focus at third level.

Immediate rage+intimidating rage+imperious command is pretty deep feat investment for the barbarian. Vs imperious command.

What do you think of using Imperious Command with Exotic weapon Master:

Show Off: As a standard action, the character can display his mastery with an exotic weapon and confound his opponent. The character may make an Intimidate check against a single opponent within 30 feet that can see him, adding his base attack bonus to the result. If the result exceeds the opponent's modified level check (see the skill description on page 76 of the Player's Handbook), the opponent becomes shaken (—2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws) for 1 round per class level of the exotic weapon master.

Is there any way to make that affect more than one foe and/or use less than a standard action?

Also, what is this Zhentarum sublevel discussion that people are referring to and where is it found?

[Philistine]

Where are you getting the idea that a Barbarian would have a better grapple check?

Both are Full BAB, and generally have similar requirements for race selections and stat distribution. So they're equal to that point. But Barbarians do get Rage (and by level 18 have it 5/day, each instance of which should have sufficient duration to last through an encounter), while a given Fighter might get Improved Grapple (if he qualifies for it, of course).

Face it: Weapon Supremacy is a sad consolation prize for people who for some reason are forced to stay in Fighter for 18 levels, and who've chosen to waste half their bonus Feats on small, non-scaling bonuses to the use of a single weapon.

[Artillery]

I'm more of a fighter fan. The barbarian has its appeal, but all is lost to me after level 2, with ACFs. But then, I'm usually quite dip-heavy on my melee characters, so take this with a grain of salt(Loads of barbarian 2/fighter 4/prestige class guys)

I like the Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Prestige class setups. You get 2 more lvls with d12 HD. My favorite build requires powerful build or large for Knockback and its craziness.

Pounce, Improved Trip, and rage from barbarian.
2 bonus feats from fighter.
4 lvl 2 maneuvers and a stance, int to reflex save, easy weapon retraining, get uncanny dodge you lost for improved trip.

I find it fun to do Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5 for prestige classes for this. Master Thrower gets you improved critical on any throwing weapon you have weapon focus on and increased crit multiplier. Bloodstorm Blade nets you throw anything and you can make iteratives with a single weapon. You also do melee attack rolls instead of ranged attack rolls and can use your melee feats. So you get to be a better battlefield control person then a huge spiked chain tripper.

Barbarian and fighter go well together and shouldn't be used in a mono class comparison.

[VanIsleKnight]

In a fight, why not just 5-foot step away from the barbarian, then ready your standard action to withdraw your move speed from the barbarian when he gets within melee range? You can try to wait out the barbarian's rage until it's over since it can only be used once per encounter. The barbarian would either waste his full attack when he 5-foot steps towards you, or waste his turn entirely because he has to use his move action to 5-foot step, and then his standard again to move the rest of the distance to you.

Then the barbarian's rage feature is rendered entirely pointless, and he only has his damage reduction to fall back on. Which is admittedly still pretty decent for a fight. He'd also have to split his feats between combat and non-combat, whereas the fighter can use all of his general feats for non-combat, and his fighter feats to do what fighters do.


EDIT: To be clear, I'm looking at http://www.d20srd.org for the rules on 5-foot stepping and full-attacks. I'm a Pathfinder player, so don't have any 3.X books handy.

EDIT AGAIN: I didn't read restricted withdraw properly, so nevermind.


I stand by the idea of having to wait out the barbarian's rage, though the only way I can think of right now (again assuming straight levels of each core class because HAX, and no magical gear because HAX) is clever use of 5-foot stepping, withdrawing, caltrops, nets, readied actions, and tridents or something against a charge.

Outside of combat, yeah. Fighters only have their feats. Maybe they can focus on Craft: Trapmaking, and Intimidate. I think they can get a +5 bonus on those from feats (skill focus and whatnot).

[Axier]

I didn't know this barbarian was a blue dragon.


If the Barbarian is a Vampire, that might make raging difficult.

XD Did I say Dessicate? I meant Desecrate! Silly spell check when I can't type!
Anyway, can vampires not rage? I don't think I ever thought about it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Vampires, lacking a Con score, can only Rage for 3 rounds.

[Lans]

Both are Full BAB, and generally have similar requirements for race selections and stat distribution. So they're equal to that point. But Barbarians do get Rage (and by level 18 have it 5/day, each instance of which should have sufficient duration to last through an encounter), while a given Fighter might get Improved Grapple (if he qualifies for it, of course).
.

The fighter is more likely to take close quarters fighting than improved grapple

[navar100]

Over the course of 20 levels, with the right selection of feats a fighter can dish out the same damage as a raging barbarian, have the same combat feats as the barbarian, and still have some extra feats to spare for different combat strategies. The fighter can afford to change some feats around for more combat versatility of tactics that more than make up for the couple of points of damage less per round he would do. Combat favors the fighter.

Out of combat favors the barbarian. Contrary to popular belief the fighter can do alright skill-wise because DCs are not astronomically high. Certainly he's no skill monkey, but he fails far less often than people say. However, the barbarian getting more skill points and class skills is a significant game mechanics factor. The math alone gives him the edge.

[thethird]

I would say that it really depends. In a mano a mano, knowing before building characters that they are going to be against each other I would probably give it to the fighter, since he is more schrodenger-y than the barbarian.

Skill points wise, you have to take into account the existence of thug fighters 1 less fighter bonus feat but as many skill points as the barbarian.

If I were to build a fighter to fight a barbarian, I would probably go towards an AoO focused build.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Barbarian has better saves, better HD, more skill points and damage reduction

In exchange they don't gain bonus feats from the fighter (and armor proficiency, but you get +20 speed for that (+10 for not in heavy, +10 from Barbarian), and if you really want the armor you just need to get a few feats).

I do personally find Barbarian a better class overall, and before someone argues the Unliterate, the Barbarian can easily use it's skill point advantage to fix that and still be ahead of the Fighter in terms of skills.

However, my best d&d character has taken fighter up to Lv.12 for weapon spec feats etc and he is absaloutely broken between those, power attack and a high STR. So Fighter can be very effective as well.

[Lans]

Out of combat favors the barbarian. Contrary to popular belief the fighter can do alright skill-wise because DCs are not astronomically high. Certainly he's no skill monkey, but he fails far less often than people say. However, the barbarian getting more skill points and class skills is a significant game mechanics factor. The math alone gives him the edge.

Not necessarily, the lasting intimidation and skill focus from zhentariam fighter makes it more of a grey area with the fighter being able to do what no other class can do with the skill

[Greenish]

I believe Roy and Thog have already put this ancient battle between opposites to rest :smalltongue:Point of order: Thog is a multiclass barbarian/fighter. :smallamused:


And of course Thog would have beat Roy if not for DM fiat.

[Lans]

What do you think of using Imperious Command with Exotic weapon Master:

Show Off: As a standard action, the character can display his mastery with an exotic weapon and confound his opponent. The character may make an Intimidate check against a single opponent within 30 feet that can see him, adding his base attack bonus to the result. If the result exceeds the opponent's modified level check (see the skill description on page 76 of the Player's Handbook), the opponent becomes shaken (—2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws) for 1 round per class level of the exotic weapon master.

Is there any way to make that affect more than one foe and/or use less than a standard action? That doesn't work with imperious command because its based off of the demoralize action of intimidate


Also, what is this Zhentarum sublevel discussion that people are referring to and where is it found?

Its found in the champions of valor web enhancement


This really doesn't prove versatility. You've just created a ninth-level character with about three tricks, all of which are only useful during combat, in a situation where you're completely aware of your opponent(s). Your ignoring the social actions of intimidate


Also, what? You seemed to give fighter bonus feats at first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, and ninth level.

Zhentarum fighter sub levels give abilities on odd levels

[ericgrau]

For versatility I usually pick up a bunch of magic items regardless of class. A couple skills and a minor defense against traps are a joke, especially compared to anything you can buy. Or compared to most anything, really.

That's why I say it's a matter of ACFs available vs. feats available. If we use an unchanged barbarian, the fighter tree + melee weapon mastery gives more than rage. Plus shocktrooper comes earlier. Beyond that the barbarian has a bunch of minor abilities that don't mean much, but somehow bump him up a tier?? :smallconfused: Beyond that the fighter still has a bunch of feats leftover, which open up more tricks. So without ACFs fighter wins by a mile. But maybe some pounce and so on might level the field? I'm not as familiar with those.

[Greenish]

So without ACFs fighter wins by a mile. But maybe some pounce and so on might level the field? I'm not as familiar with those.Most of barbarian ACFs come in the first few levels anyway. Whirling Frenzy, Mountain Rage, Ferocity, spirit totems (they do have higher level abilities, but those aren't quite so hot), Trapkiller…

There are some decent feats and PrCs that require Rage, too, though.

[Soranar]

Alright, let's do a quick rundown

hitpoints : d12 vs d10

Barb more useful

proficiencies: tower shield + heavy armor , the point should go to fighter but, because optimized fighters usually fight 2 handed, and because mithril full plate are medium armor, comes out equal in actual gameplay

you could trade your extra stuff for DEX to damage vs flat-footed opponents thought but that ability is very situational (still, builds can be made around this) but DEX fighter's are subpar to strength fighters (less elegant, requires more feats to do less)

in short, Barb still wins out

skillpoints: x4 for Barb, x2 for fighter, Barb also gets a better skill list and literacy isn't that useful for them

fighter could become a thug for better skillpoints but his skill list is still inferior to a Barb so point to Barb

Class features, alternate and substitution levels and progression

first, it should be pointed out that most builds go , maximum, barbarian 6 and fighter 6 (maybe a little more fighter for zhentarim fighter). But I'll still point out the reasonable cut off points

Barb 1 vs fighter 1

barb gives you pounce, kinda hard to beat that for a martial character

barb 2 vs fighter 2

barb gives you pounce and improved trip , fighter gets combat expert and improved trip or any other 2 feat combo

barb 6 vs fighter 6

Barb gives you pounce, whirling frenzy, trapkiller

fighter can give you dungeoncrasher + some zhentarim abilities

this is almost equal, dungeoncrasher is a good build but the barb's better skills and hitpoints (plus his damage output , which is more reliable than bullrushing for damage) means that he still wins.

Barb 20 vs fighter 20

At this point a fighter's ridiculous amount of bonus feat might finally accomplish something. But a barbarian will have had a far better time getting there than a fighter and his ACF are still superior.

All in all, a barb is just much better than a fighter. An optimized Barb vs and optimized fighter even more so

[Eldariel]

In a fight, why not just 5-foot step away from the barbarian, then ready your standard action to withdraw your move speed from the barbarian when he gets within melee range? You can try to wait out the barbarian's rage until it's over since it can only be used once per encounter. The barbarian would either waste his full attack when he 5-foot steps towards you, or waste his turn entirely because he has to use his move action to 5-foot step, and then his standard again to move the rest of the distance to you.

Withdraw is a full-round action. Can't take it as a readied action. You also cannot 5' step and move in the same round. Also, he could still move next to you with a Spiked Chain and attack making you provoke. All in all, there are too many things wrong with this in both, PF and 3.X for this to be a real consideration.

Not to even mention, this only matters in a 1v1 rather than when comparing contributions. 1v1 is irrelevant; contributions measure class utility.

[Aliek]

proficiencies: tower shield + heavy armor , the point should go to fighter but, because optimized fighters usually fight 2 handed, and because mithril full plate are medium armor, comes out equal in actual gameplay

you could trade your extra stuff for DEX to damage vs flat-footed opponents thought but that ability is very situational (still, builds can be made around this) but DEX fighter's are subpar to strength fighters (less elegant, requires more feats to do less)

in short, Barb still wins out


Eh... So basically
"Fighters have more proficiencies, but most of the time they won't come into play, so they can trade it for some extra stuff. But still, barbarians are better"?

Something doesn't tick right for me.

[Karnith]

Eh... So basically
"Fighters have more proficiencies, but most of the time they won't come into play, so they can trade it for some extra stuff. But still, barbarians are better"?

Something doesn't tick right for me.
Well, the fighter's extra proficiencies don't really matter (because heavy armor can always be made of mithral, and using shields is a losing proposition), and the things that you can get by trading away those proficiencies are suboptimal. So fighters don't really get anything important from the extra proficiencies.

The barbarian doesn't actually come out ahead, but neither does the fighter.

[Pickford]

Both are Full BAB, and generally have similar requirements for race selections and stat distribution. So they're equal to that point. But Barbarians do get Rage (and by level 18 have it 5/day, each instance of which should have sufficient duration to last through an encounter), while a given Fighter might get Improved Grapple (if he qualifies for it, of course).

Face it: Weapon Supremacy is a sad consolation prize for people who for some reason are forced to stay in Fighter for 18 levels, and who've chosen to waste half their bonus Feats on small, non-scaling bonuses to the use of a single weapon.

Raging of course requires either that the Barbarian win the initiative or be able to rage off-turn (i.e. feats are required)

The Fighter meanwhile with feats to burn can get bonuses to grapple and initiative. Meaning the Fighter likely will win initiative 'and' have a superior grappling score (and be able to wield the 2h weapon of choice for a full attack in grapple) and the Barbarian is only able to match 'some' of those abilities if they cripple themselves by picking up a very narrow utility (to them) set of feats.

[Soranar]

Raging of course requires either that the Barbarian win the initiative or be able to rage off-turn (i.e. feats are required)

The Fighter meanwhile with feats to burn can get bonuses to grapple and initiative. Meaning the Fighter likely will win initiative 'and' have a superior grappling score (and be able to wield the 2h weapon of choice for a full attack in grapple) and the Barbarian is only able to match 'some' of those abilities if they cripple themselves by picking up a very narrow utility (to them) set of feats.

Grappling is a subpar combat style for a many reasons: freedom of movement nullifies it. And that doesn't even consider that fighting creatures with grappling means you're trying to beat something that's likely to be stronger and larger than you.

I really don't see how burning 2 feats on grappling is optimized.

[Muktidata]

I thought I ended this thread. Fighters get 9's, game over. Barbarians can be strong outside of single-class, but just barbarian vs fighter using single-class, assuming wide-open source material, fighters slap barbarians around something fierce. Even non-caster fighters are stronger with Thug, Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier than Street Fighter, Whirling Frenzy, Lion-Wolf Totem, Brawler Barbarians.

[Lans]

proficiencies: tower shield + heavy armor , the point should go to fighter but, because optimized fighters usually fight 2 handed, and because mithril full plate are medium armor, comes out equal in actual gameplay

you could trade your extra stuff for DEX to damage vs flat-footed opponents thought but that ability is very situational (still, builds can be made around this) but DEX fighter's are subpar to strength fighters (less elegant, requires more feats to do less)

in short, Barb still wins out

Even if you are using a two handed weapon you can still carry an invisible tower shield with you, giving full cover for the first round of combat.

Otherwise the dex to damage also comes with +2 initiative.


skillpoints: x4 for Barb, x2 for fighter, Barb also gets a better skill list and literacy isn't that useful for them

fighter could become a thug for better skillpoints but his skill list is still inferior to a Barb so point to Barb I would say bluff, gather information and the fighters intimidate, would trump the barbarians intimidate, listen, and survival.

[TuggyNE]

I thought I ended this thread. Fighters get 9's, game over.

While I've vaguely heard of this trick a couple times before, it's a) not all that well known (so you can't just make cryptic references to it and expect everyone to nod and agree) and b) stunningly cheesy.

[Gwendol]

While rage and fast movement are nice features, the fighter pulls ahead quite early on. Lans has it down right when it comes to the skills and their uses.

[Pickford]

While I've vaguely heard of this trick a couple times before, it's a) not all that well known (so you can't just make cryptic references to it and expect everyone to nod and agree) and b) stunningly cheesy.

I don't even know what he's referencing. edit: Care to enlighten me Tuggyne?

[TuggyNE]

I don't even know what he's referencing. edit: Care to enlighten me Tuggyne?

I actually don't remember the details, but it was some obscure ACF or something that gave first-level spells, and then a really horrible piggyback sequence that gave increasing spell levels all the way to 9ths.

Oh, here it is. Actually, nothing but feats, and not even [Fighter] feats. :smalltongue:

[Pickford]

I actually don't remember the details, but it was some obscure ACF or something that gave first-level spells, and then a really horrible piggyback sequence that gave increasing spell levels all the way to 9ths.

Oh, here it is. Actually, nothing but feats, and not even [Fighter] feats. :smalltongue:

Oh, that's a misreading of sanctum spell. It doesn't work. You don't actually get higher level spells, they just 'act' as higher level.