Skill monkey advice

[Postmodernist]

So, I'm probably going to be filling the skillmonkey role in an upcoming RHoD game. Nothing is set in stone regarding the build, other than the fact that we're starting at level 6. Our party will likely lack a dedicated frontliner, so some combat ability will likely be required. Consequently, I'm considering a Daring Outlaw style build. However, I've never played a Factotum, and I'm interested in playing one, though I remain uncertain.

Somehow, I'd like to combine the best elements of Factotum, Rogue, Swashbuckler, and Swordsage/Warblade, but have no idea how. Lots of PrC possibilities also spring to mind: Blade Bravo, Chameleon, Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade, Eternal Blade, Invisible Blade, Apparently Any Prestige Class With Blade In The Name, etc. I've read most of the relevant handbooks. Races could be anything: human and whisper gnome seem the likeliest contenders, though nothing is set in stone.

Any recommendations? Thanks in advance.

[Rubik]

An Iaijutsu Focus (and Knowledge Devotion) factotum seems like a good match. Use whisper gnome for a gnomish quickrazor. Once you gain some natural attacks, add them into your routine.

What about factotum 8/totemist 2/swordsage 2/bloodclaw master 5/factotum 3? Grab assassin's stance as a stance known. You could focus on your Iaijutsu/sneak attack and natural attacks, using Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Make sure to grab Craven at some point, to add your character level to sneak attacks.

[edit] You can switch your levels about, too, if you want. Factotum 3/totemist 2/swordsage 2/bloodclaw master 5/factotum 8 would be a decent way to build if you want more meleeage and less skills up front.

[Postmodernist]

An Iaijutsu Focus (and Knowledge Devotion) factotum seems like a good match. Use whisper gnome for a gnomish quickrazor. Once you gain some natural attacks, add them into your routine.

What about factotum 8/totemist 2/swordsage 2/bloodclaw master 5/factotum 3? Grab assassin's stance as a stance known. You could focus on your Iaijutsu/sneak attack and natural attacks, using Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Make sure to grab Craven at some point, to add your character level to sneak attacks.

[edit] You can switch your levels about, too, if you want. Factotum 3/totemist 2/swordsage 2/bloodclaw master 5/factotum 8 would be a decent way to build if you want more meleeage and less skills up front.

Whisper gnome approved, so likely to select that. Never used a totemist before, so I wouldn't really know where to go with that. I've never used Iaijustu Focus either. Any advice on maxing it?

EDIT: Looking more closely at Iaijutsu Focus, it looks to largely obviate the need for sneak attack. Is this more or less accurate?

[Rubik]

Whisper gnome approved, so likely to select that. Never used a totemist before, so I wouldn't really know where to go with that.Here are a couple of guides to incarnum:

Beginner's Guide:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723

...and Handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0


I've never used Iaijustu Focus either. Any advice on maxing it?Do what you would normally do with boosting skills. Here's a thread specifically about doing it with I.F.: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208627 (and don't forget about paying to add "masterwork tool" to your quickrazor).


EDIT: Looking more closely at Iaijutsu Focus, it looks to largely obviate the need for sneak attack. Is this more or less accurate?It doesn't entirely obviate it -- after all, the more dice of damage you've got, the better. But it IS a good source of damage, assuming you can qualify for using it. Go for marbles to make them flat-footed (add to alchemist's fire for some additional damage), and do what you can with your surroundings and Hide checks. Adding at least +1d6 of sneak attack lets you use Craven, which gives you +character level to your I.F./S.A. attacks, after all.

And don't forget Knowledge Devotion! It'll require another feat and some skill points, though, but you'll get some nice boosts to attack and damage out of it.

[Gildedragon]

If you are taking knowledge devotion (which you ought to) and are a gnome take trivial knowledge. It boosts your knowledge checks by making them all be 2d20b1. A small something but it boosts all your attacks.

Ask your DM about the kirin style feats from pathfinder. They are more taxing than shadow hand but ultimately worth it I find

[Postmodernist]

Hmmm... I'll look at those feats. My DM seems unlikely to allow Iajutsu focus, as he's had bad experiences with it in the past. Any recommendations on boosting damage, or should I ignore it altogether and focus on other aspects of my character?

[Socratov]

I'd throw a vote in for a snowflake wardance bard(Bard 1/rogue 1/Bard-build-continued): combat ability (check: bard snowflake wardancing +some DFI goodness), Skillmonkey (Check: bards make nice skillmonkeys with bardic knack and 1 lvl of rogue for trapfinding), Utility (check: you have spells). And everybody knows bards are notoriously fun to play as well as (when built right, might want to visit the handbook) and effective addition to the party.

I still want to play and all bard campaign :smallbiggrin:

That would be awesome :smallwink:

[Postmodernist]

Check out my sig. I already have a bard with DFI and Snowflake Wardance. He's great fun, but I'm looking to make a different character. Basically the debate looks to be between Whisper Gnome swashbuckler/rogue/swordsage into blade bravo or Human Factotum/war blade/chameleon. Iajutsu focus is not an option. What do you guys suggest?

[Fouredged Sword]

Factotum 1 / cloistered cleric 19 with the trickery and freedom domains and domain spontaneity. Get the feat at level one that grants no extra cost for cross class skills, paired with the factotum level grants all skills as class skills forever.

Then you are a sneaky cleric. Whisper gnome is still great, but go the DMM persist rout and persist divine power cast. Cast Divine Might as a combat buff. Power attack for damage.

An alternative is rogue as the first level. It restricts your skills a little, but not too much, but grants more skills and sneak attack for craven.

You are a very tough nut to crack with full bab (divine power) and great stealth skills. You should have the basic rogue skills maxed out and Avatar for those that are not or for when you really need to make that check.

[Gildedragon]

If not if-ing you'll need to get bonus damage from elsewhere, most likely sneak-attack and poison, or get on some battlefield control with tripping and disarming.
Weaponswise this means halberd, whip, or spiked chain (you want the range).
Craft (alchemy) is more important now, so as to have a ready source of tanglefoot bags and the like.

[gallagher]

A spellthief/beguiler/unseen seer is a great combo that fills the skilled player role, lets you be a secondary caster in the party, and though you wont be frontlining, you will be able to contribute (invest a feat in spikechain if you can, if not the longspear is a good option)

[Postmodernist]

Again, I'm mostly interested in either daring outlaw or factotum builds. Stealth cleric is probably optimal, but it's off the table. I'm also already running a beguiler, so same goes for that.

Essentially, a pros/cons breakdown of each intended build might be nice, since I have little experience with either.

[Toliudar]

The factotum build gives great out-of-combat utility and versatility. I'm not sure at what level you're starting, but you're unlikely to add more than 2-4 levels before the end of the game, so the theoretical level-20 builds are likely not that useful for you.

To add offense in combat, consider either poisons (still useful at levels 5-8, I'd say), or dipping warblade for a couple of levels. Good int-synergy and fun maneuvers.

Although getting to Factotum 8, for the awesome bonus actions is also quite reasonable.

[Soranar]

Factotum is, often, an 8 level long class.

Afterwards you can either go Chameleon and /or dip swordsage 2 to get a nice stance.

Tier wise, as far as skillmonkeys go, Chameleon can be all over the place. Really depends what your DM allows. But , if sorcerer only spells and trapsmith spells are allowed, you can get fairly insane very quickly (tier 2 or tier 1)

I really don't recommend rogue as it's easily the least optimized class. Sneak attack doesn't work against too many opponents and flanking (to trigger penetrating strike ACF) is quite dangerous for a d6 hitpoint character. Never mind uncanny dodge and the like.

Bards are easily optimized and work well inside and outside combat due to their music (inspire courage and inspire competence is always useful and you get a LOT of uses per day). Their high CHA also synergies very well with all their skills and you can take human paragon to add Iaijutsu focus to your build.

Another, often forgotten, skillmonkey is a ranger. With the trap expert ACF, wildshape (ACF) and sword of the arcane order (feat) they can compete with a factotum in sheer versatility (and they get a scout through the urban companion ACF). While not campaign breaking such a build is still a high tier 3 class (and you can concentrate on CON, INT and WIS , ignoring all other stats).

All in all, in a power comparison

Chameleon 1rst, bard /factotum/ranger mostly equal (at tier 3) but chameleon doesn't start till level 6 so it depends on your level too.

[Gildedragon]

Go pure factotum. Medium size is better as you can trip more effectively. Getting the bonus sneak attack from rogue or assassin's stance is nice but it can limit you to a dps pseudo rogue. Not that there's anything wrong with that

[Postmodernist]

Factotum it is. I want to splash a little ToB. My suspicion is that Warblade will have more synergy, but is there a case for Swordsage?

[Gildedragon]

You get access to more stuff.
For a class that depends on versatility having a greater number of disciplines available is more useful.

[Karnith]

Factotum it is. I want to splash a little ToB. My suspicion is that Warblade will have more synergy, but is there a case for Swordsage?
There is, but it isn't as strong as the case for Warblade. Swordsages do get more skill points, and have more maneuvers (plus access to shadow hand maneuvers, which are all-around good for a sneaky character). However, a warblade dip has better HD, doesn't lose you BAB, and most importantly will have Int synergy. And you won't have to deal with the swordsage's terrible recovery mechanic.

[TuggyNE]

Bards are easily optimized

… That's the first I've heard of that.

Practical to optimize pretty highly, yes (outside Core), but easy? Not so much.

[Postmodernist]

Looks like Factotum, Warblade, and Chameleon will be the build. Thanks for the advice, everybody.

[Fouredged Sword]

Note that martial study is a great feat for a factotum/warblade/Chameleon build. It lets you use your floating feat on ETHER martial study OR martial stance, allowing you to gain access to any stance or maneuver from any discipline, so long as you meet the prereqs.

[Postmodernist]

Note that martial study is a great feat for a factotum/warblade/Chameleon build. It lets you use your floating feat on ETHER martial study OR martial stance, allowing you to gain access to any stance or maneuver from any discipline, so long as you meet the prereqs.

This is a good suggestion, one I've seen in several of the Factotum Handbooks. Any other feat/build advice in general? I'm thinking of ways to get around the issue of Feat starvation. So far, only Able Learner is required, but I'm looking for flexibility. Would Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment be a good choice? War domain grants EWP and Weapon Focus. Combined with Warblade weapon familiarity, it grants a lot of potential flexibility, ala Haberdasher the Masked. Any other sneaky combos?

What about equipment suggestions? I'm thinking assassination enhancements on weapons (to take advantage of Craft: Poison), gloves of perfect balance and/or shadow blade gloves, among other things. Any other must have stuff?

[Gildedragon]

the war domain does not grant EWP, it grants martial proficiency.
A morphing-aptitude weapon is not a bad idea as it lets you adapt to the situation.

Heroic destiny isn't a bad choice, for that check you really need boosted
Dragonmark feats give you a couple of possibly handy SLA's
Jotunbrud isn't bad as being large when it is good to be large can be great, allowing you to essentially get feycraft on your weapons without reducing their damage output

[Rubik]

A morphing-aptitude weapon is not a bad idea as it lets you adapt to the situation.Add sizing and metaline so it can literally be anything you can use as a weapon.

Using weapon crystals means it can be frost/flaming/shocking/etc etc etc, whenever you want.

[Postmodernist]

Good suggestions. Keep in mind, we're starting at 6th level, so cash will be somewhat tight.

Feat selection tentatively looks like:
1st: Adaptive Learning
Human: Font of Inspiration
3rd: Knowledge Devotion
6th: Exotic Weapon Proficiency

Anything major missing?

What weapon(s) should he primarily use? I've looked over the Haberdasher build, and am contemplating the Razor Net, but I can effectively choose anything. Style points and available cash are the only real concerns.

32 point buy, any suggestions for the build? Is Weapon Finesse necessary?

[Gildedragon]

Razor net isn't that good and is a 1 shot weapon. You can get entangling with tanglefoot bags.
Weapon finesse is needed if you are not wielding light weapons you can shrink with feycraftyness and are being all dexy.

[Postmodernist]

But is Finesse necessary? I can definitely see it being useful, but what is the major advantage? Just dumping Strength?

[Rubik]

Might I suggest avoiding Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the moment and sticking with a guisarme and a spiked gauntlet instead? Reach AND adjacent, and if you find a way to get Improved Trip or Knockdown, you can prevent enemies from coming close to you. It's better than a spiked chain, unless you want to disarm.

[Postmodernist]

That could work. What feat would take its place at 6th? A Factotum/Chameleon seems able to go off into so many crazy directions, I'm a bit overwhelmed.

EDIT: Imperious Command? Shoot for the Fearsome (or Dreadful or whatever) armor enhancement from DotU?

[Gildedragon]

Foi.

or Imperious Command
or Acquire Familiar
or Keen Intellect

[Postmodernist]

Can a character with only 3 levels (initially) of Factotum really make that much use of FoI? Imperious Command seems great, but how long before he takes pains to make every enemy immune to fear? Keen Intellect seems pretty great, actually, though it only reinforces skill monkeying. Acquire Familiar actually seems rather fun, and would probably necessitate Improved Familiar. Could be entertaining.

[Rubik]

Can a character with only 3 levels (initially) of Factotum really make that much use of FoI? Imperious Command seems great, but how long before he takes pains to make every enemy immune to fear? Keen Intellect seems pretty great, actually, though it only reinforces skill monkeying. Acquire Familiar actually seems rather fun, and would probably necessitate Improved Familiar. Could be entertaining.An extra (in total) three inspiration points is pretty great at and around level 6. The benefits really start coming in on your next iteration of FoI, though. Six additional inspiration points is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you're adding your Int score to everything you do.

Have you considered the Hidden Talent feat from the XPH at level 1? Grab Psionic Minor Creation for plant-based poisons and objects up to 1 cu ft that last a whole hour, and the ability to take and use psionic feats (which is even better if you go chameleon, so you can have a floating one when you need it).

[Socratov]

So, yeah, a bit late, but still in time (I hope) take 1 lvl of archivist and the rest factotum (maybe factoring in some chameleon, if only for 2 levels for the floating feat). Go knowledge devotion, take fonts of inspiration and use factotum and chameleon to get sneak attack. next take martial study for assassin's stance (+sneak) and the sneak attack line. Use the floating feat from chameleon to accomodate to your needs. This makes for one of the most versatile and int focused characters around (with some nice built in support as well)

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, look into item creation feats. Your floating feat allows you to pick up any of them you want. It works great for picking up scribe scroll on your off days to create a scroll to use on days you don't use your arcane or divine focus.

Extra Spell (I think that is the name - The spell that grants an extra spell known) is great. You can pick it up to learn a spell not in your spellbook and then scribe that spell into your spellbook. Then you can take a new feat the next day.

A familiar uses your skill ranks. Ravens are nice, as they can talk, and thus use your social skills. They spot, search, and hide/move sci. Great little helpers.

[Socratov]

Also, look into item creation feats. Your floating feat allows you to pick up any of them you want. It works great for picking up scribe scroll on your off days to create a scroll to use on days you don't use your arcane or divine focus.

Extra Spell (I think that is the name - The spell that grants an extra spell known) is great. You can pick it up to learn a spell not in your spellbook and then scribe that spell into your spellbook. Then you can take a new feat the next day.

A familiar uses your skill ranks. Ravens are nice, as they can talk, and thus use your social skills. They spot, search, and hide/move sci. Great little helpers.
scribe sroll is a bad example since with 1 lvl of archivist you get it anyway, but good thought

[Rubik]

A familiar uses your skill ranks. Ravens are nice, as they can talk, and thus use your social skills. They spot, search, and hide/move sci. Great little helpers.Plus, they can use command word items, such as using readied actions to protect you using your Shrink Item'd tinfoil hat.

[Fouredged Sword]

I was thinking factotum 4 / warblade 2 / chameleon x as the build. I don't expect the game will go past 8, so waiting for factotum standard actions may be futile. If it does finish out chameleon and then go factotum for more skills and nice int things.

Chameleon will grant all divine 1st level spells and can grant scribe scroll as needed, so no need for archivist. Warblade 2 will grant some hitting power.

Feats -
1 -Adaptive learning
H - Font of Inspiration
3 - Knowledge devotion
6 - Martial study (counter charge)

You start off a skilled fighter with good hitting power and 2nd level strikes. Focus on iron heart and diamond mind. Counter charge is to turn off charging vs you as you add your int+str or dex vs their dex or str. You have skills and good HP and 5 bab.

Feats to consider picking up as you go - power attack or Acquire Familiar.

[Person_Man]

Since this is an ECL 6 Factotum build, you may wish to look at my Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) build. (Which is basically just Factotum 5/Master of Masks 1/Whatever X. Though if you're willing to brave the Incarnum rules, the most powerful version of the build combines Facototum with Totemist or Incarnate, which gives you some very impressive buffs).

Even if you don't use Master of Masks, the post lists out and describes in detail the most useful Factotum combos; Iaijutsu Focus, Fear, self buffing, Trip, etc.

[Postmodernist]

I have looked at your guides, Person Man. I considered Haberdasher, and I quite like him, but he seemed a bit unwieldy. At 13,000 gold to start, he's stretched rather thin for cash. Fearsome enhancement is +5k, and a mithral breastplate runs around 4k. A weapon with the enhancement that allows it to shift forms would probably bankrupt him at character creation, and that Psicrown of the Evader won't be coming into play any time soon. Further, my DM will not be allowing Iajutsu Focus, so that limits some damaging options. I suspect that the Imperious Command/Never Outnumbered trick will work exactly once, and then my DM will simply make sure that every group we encounter is buffed with some form of fear resistance. Plus, it's RHoD, so there will only be so much we can carry.

I am, however, looking very strongly at your Echo the Active build, about which you elaborate somewhat less. Factotum 3/Warblade2/Chameleon1 seems rather flexible as a level 6 build to me, and Chameleon will only grow in utility over the campaign. Any suggestions for that build?

[CaladanMoonblad]

While not core, University Trained appears in AEG's feat book (under backgrounds)- it adds +2 skill point bonus for every level (taken only at 1st level, for 100 less gold upon character creation). I approved it for my game, since my players (and I) are all masters or higher in terms of educational status in real life- we value education, so why shouldn't our games reflect our values?

Most of my players didn't take the feat unless it made sense- no university for the rogue (grew up on the streets), but the wizard did, as did the bard. The fighter apparently went to vocational school to learn the Art of War.

[Postmodernist]

Additional question: what sort of armor should this character wear once Chameleon levels start kicking in, assuming that I generally or frequently adopt the Arcane Aptitude. Would a Feycraft Mithral Twilight Breastplate work?

[Rubik]

Additional question: what sort of armor should this character wear once Chameleon levels start kicking in, assuming that I generally or frequently adopt the Arcane Aptitude. Would a Feycraft Mithral Twilight Breastplate work?I'd rely on spells, really. Get a couple of eternal wand of Alter Self and use natural armor from your new forms. It's far cheaper and more effective than buying lots of magic items to keep your AC relevant. Also, invest in miss chances. FAR more effective against more things than AC is.

[Postmodernist]

I'd rely on spells, really. Get a couple of eternal wand of Alter Self and use natural armor from your new forms. It's far cheaper and more effective than buying lots of magic items to keep your AC relevant. Also, invest in miss chances. FAR more effective against more things than AC is.

Though I already knew this, it's nice to have a reminder. Still, this class would benefit from armor, so why not use it?

[Gildedragon]

Armor wise there's greater Mage armor and luminous armor as spells
Armor armor wise: masterwork feycraft mithril chain shirt, masterwork chahar aina and masterwork dastana.

[Person_Man]

I am, however, looking very strongly at your Echo the Active build, about which you elaborate somewhat less. Factotum 3/Warblade2/Chameleon1 seems rather flexible as a level 6 build to me, and Chameleon will only grow in utility over the campaign. Any suggestions for that build?

My best advice is to simply read through all the various splat books, and obsessively make lists of all your favorite stuff.

There are a number of different "open ended" Feats. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Expanded Knowledge, Martial Study, and Martial Stance.

Chameleon gives you a floating bonus Feat, which you can change every morning. The Heroics spell (Spell Compendium) gives you a Fighter bonus feat of your choice that you otherwise qualify for. And you can swap out Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a different exotic weapon every morning using the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability. And Chameleon offers you access to spells from any list (which is important, because there are a ton of useful "half-caster" spells from the Ranger, Paladin, Hexblade, prestige class, etc lists that the Chameleon gets access to early, plus great open ended options like Alter Self, Polymorph, etc).

So you'll want to make a big list of all of your favorite soulmelds, chakra binds, maneuvers, stances, psionic powers, spells, etc, and then swap them out each day based on whatever combo you want to pull off.