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Mechanize
2013-02-27, 01:18 PM
What would the opinion be for a combat hit purely up to the d20? D20 opposed rolls, if yours is higher you subract the difference and that is your damage. Weapons, instead of rolling dice, just give static bonuses to damage.

For example... I attack with my greatsword, you defend with a knife. In my system I have big weapons with overpower bonuses vs blocking. So my d20 rolls 10, you roll 10, but even with your superior dexterity of blocking with +4, my greatsword has a +6. the differences is 2, but the greatsword upon a hit deals +6 +str damage, so lets say 12 damage.

It sounds nice and streamlined and still realistic, because where damage die add the flavor of solid hits vs glancing blows, the d20 is doing that for you when the opposed rolls differ greatly or not, but what am I missing? What is the bonus to rolling damage dice rather than this system?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-02-27, 01:22 PM
It sounds nice and streamlined and still realistic, because where damage die add the flavor of solid hits vs glancing blows, the d20 is doing that for you when the opposed rolls differ greatly or not, but what am I missing? What is the bonus to rolling damage dice rather than this system?

With damage dice it's easier to predict damage ranges and build a system accordingly. 1d8 damage is always between 1 and 8, plus other bonuses. A subtraction-based damage system ranged from 0 to 19 base damage, plus an additional range possibility based on your attack bonus vs. the defender's attack bonus (if that still exists), plus any other assorted bonuses.

It also drastically increases the math, as you need to roll your attack and add in the bonuses, have your opponent roll his roll and add his bonuses, then subtract the difference, then add in weapon damage bonuses. I don't think it gains any tangible benefit that is worth the more varied weapon damage and increase in required math.

Also, how does armor figure into this system? How does dodging figure in? This is a very basic idea, but we need more of the mechanic to actually correctly judge things.

Mechanize
2013-02-27, 01:43 PM
With damage dice it's easier to predict damage ranges and build a system accordingly. 1d8 damage is always between 1 and 8, plus other bonuses. A subtraction-based damage system ranged from 0 to 19 base damage, plus an additional range possibility based on your attack bonus vs. the defender's attack bonus (if that still exists), plus any other assorted bonuses.

It also drastically increases the math, as you need to roll your attack and add in the bonuses, have your opponent roll his roll and add his bonuses, then subtract the difference, then add in weapon damage bonuses. I don't think it gains any tangible benefit that is worth the more varied weapon damage and increase in required math.

Also, how does armor figure into this system? How does dodging figure in? This is a very basic idea, but we need more of the mechanic to actually correctly judge things.

I know I am sticking with opposed rolls so people already have to do math for that. Subtracting the difference then adding your static weapon bonus for a hit sounds like the same amount of math if I were to roll damage dice, add up numerous dice, then add in my modifiers.

You do make a good point on the random d20 roll... Then again, that could eliminate crits. Him rolling a 1 and you rolling a 20 plus damage bonus IS your crit.

This is going to look overly complicated, but the complexity is all in the background between stats weapons and armors. Once its calculated an on paper, the bonuses are quick to add.

Armor is DR.

Swinging a weapon is d20 + "BAB" + dex + weapon sureness - armor flexibility + overpower vs blockers.

Block is "BAB" + dex + weapon sureness + block adjustment

Dodge is "BAB" + dex + armor mobility

Sureness - A weapons ability to handle. Unarmed combat, daggers and rapiers would offer high sureness bonuses while a 2 handed hammer would not

Overpower - Bonuses granted to hard hitting heavy weapons vs blocking. Ie: blocking a 2 handed hammer with a knife is not a good idea.

Block Adjustment - given to shields, parry daggers, sword breakers, sai, etc.

Armor Mobility - Heavier armor is harder to move in, and harder to dodge.

Armor Flexibility - Some armor is stiff and hard to swing a weapon.

My goals:

Heavy weapons great vs plate due to bad dodging bonuses vs good overpower bonuses against blockers.

Plate great vs light weapons due to DR

Light armor great vs heavy weaopns due to good dodge bonus vs poor sureness

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-02-27, 02:02 PM
I know I am sticking with opposed rolls so people already have to do math for that. Subtracting the difference then adding your static weapon bonus for a hit sounds like the same amount of math if I were to roll damage dice, add up numerous dice, then add in my modifiers.

While true, subtraction has been fairly well documented to be harder for people to do quickly. Most RPGs use either comparison or addition because those are the mathematical functions the human brain is fastest at. Mixing the two together makes it even more complicated. We're looking at fairly small time differences due to the low numbers, but it will add up over a game session. I'd predict players find the attack computations to be somewhat tedious in actual play.


You do make a good point on the random d20 roll... Then again, that could eliminate crits. Him rolling a 1 and you rolling a 20 plus damage bonus IS your crit.

That would be a viable method of handling it, yes.


Armor is DR.

Alright. Given that the average damage between equal opponents will be 0 (assuming equal modifiers) + weapon damage, armor becomes extremely powerful.


Swinging a weapon is d20 + "BAB" + dex + weapon sureness - armor flexibility + overpower vs blockers.

Block is "BAB" + dex + weapon sureness + block adjustment

Dodge is "BAB" + dex + armor mobility


Do all classes have equal BaB? If not, this heavily penalizes any that aren't full BaB classes by making them worse at both offense AND defense, and since that translates into increased raw damage taken and decreased damage dealt you've penalized them fourfold. As these classes probably don't have as strong a weapon and/or physical stats as high (and thus lower damage and survivability), I think you'll find them getting beaten to the ground nearly instantly (pending the actual damage numbers).

Looking at this system, I also find it extremely difficult to predict what armor to wear and what weapon to wield. The numbers will swing it one way or the other, but my gut instinct is that it will handle like a computer RPG, where you switch to the best weapon based not on what you want your character to do, but because only weapon X has a decent chance of hurting enemy Y.

Again, pending numbers.


Heavy weapons great vs plate due to bad dodging bonuses vs good overpower bonuses against blockers.

Plate great vs light weapons due to DR

Light armor great vs heavy weapons due to good dodge bonus vs poor sureness

Alright. If you're intentionally designing Rock-Paper-Scissors the RPG (that's not necessarily a bad thing...just the quickest comparison I could come up with), that's fine. Be aware though: in D&D, you can't just switch characters or armor. Do you intend to knowingly cripple builds in combat situations where their weapon or armor choice is ineffective?

Mechanize
2013-02-27, 02:13 PM
Do all classes have equal BaB? If not, this heavily penalizes any that aren't full BaB classes by making them worse at both offense AND defense, and since that translates into increased raw damage taken and decreased damage dealt you've penalized them fourfold. As these classes probably don't have as strong a weapon and/or physical stats as high (and thus lower damage and survivability), I think you'll find them getting beaten to the ground nearly instantly (pending the actual damage numbers).

Equal BAB. This is a classless system. I'm just calling it Combat Skill since it effects many rolls, not just attacking. The idea is that anyone in combat for a long enough time gains experience whether you swing swords or sling magic.




Alright. If you're intentionally designing Rock-Paper-Scissors the RPG (that's not necessarily a bad thing...just the quickest comparison I could come up with), that's fine. Be aware though: in D&D, you can't just switch characters or armor. Do you intend to knowingly cripple builds in combat situations where their weapon or armor choice is ineffective?

Completely intended. I want fighters to have a more tactical approach to their enemies instead of just charge and swing relentelessly. Weapon choice and armor will have a big impact on what you can and cant do.

This will still be a fantasy setting, but with, hopefully, a more realistic tactical feel. For example I just watched a medieval armor and weapons segment and they brought up a time in history where some french soldiers in plate attacked a village of peasants. The peasants just happened to like wielding spiked 2 handed hammers "godendag" and they beat the crap out of the soldiers in plate.

Plato Play-Doh
2013-02-27, 02:16 PM
Alright. If you're intentionally designing Rock-Paper-Scissors the RPG (that's not necessarily a bad thing...just the quickest comparison I could come up with), that's fine. Be aware though: in D&D, you can't just switch characters or armor. Do you intend to knowingly cripple builds in combat situations where their weapon or armor choice is ineffective?

If a new system is designed and balanced with this in mind, I honestly think it would work fairly well. If a build wants to be a generalist, I assume they could use medium armor and medium sized weapons, most of which have little use in d&d, but if specialization is desired, they just have to rely on their teammates a bit more to get by. They can still participate, with the proper tactics, but I think that approach would better encourage teamwork. Granted, the numbers aren't being shown yet, but if done right, I think this could work out quite well.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-02-27, 02:24 PM
If a new system is designed and balanced with this in mind, I honestly think it would work fairly well. If a build wants to be a generalist, I assume they could use medium armor and medium sized weapons, most of which have little use in d&d, but if specialization is desired, they just have to rely on their teammates a bit more to get by. They can still participate, with the proper tactics, but I think that approach would better encourage teamwork. Granted, the numbers aren't being shown yet, but if done right, I think this could work out quite well.

Agreed. Hence why I asked if it was intentional or not. :smallbiggrin:

Mechanize
2013-02-27, 02:30 PM
If a new system is designed and balanced with this in mind, I honestly think it would work fairly well. If a build wants to be a generalist, I assume they could use medium armor and medium sized weapons, most of which have little use in d&d, but if specialization is desired, they just have to rely on their teammates a bit more to get by. They can still participate, with the proper tactics, but I think that approach would better encourage teamwork. Granted, the numbers aren't being shown yet, but if done right, I think this could work out quite well.

Where medium armor would put you in the middle of dodging or blocking, it doesn't determine a "build style" at all. You could have an unarmored weapons expert. Someone who wields a variety of tactical weapons for each given situation and relies on dodging and high mobility and positioning, rather than holding a position with armor "tanking"

I'll have special abilities that everyone gets to pick and choose from, those would determine your build probably more than armor and weapons would. I just see armor and weapon choice more of a temporary tactical option. If you know you are going to be defending a portcullis vs a horde of goblins, everyone may opt for heavy armor. Of course most battles you don't have a choice and you are stuck with what you are wearing, but that just means people will think twice about who they go toe to toe with, and like you said, it will also encourage more teamwork.

Synovia
2013-02-27, 02:32 PM
Do all classes have equal BaB? If not, this heavily penalizes any that aren't full BaB classes by making them worse at both offense AND defense, and since that translates into increased raw damage taken and decreased damage dealt you've penalized them fourfold. As these classes probably don't have as strong a weapon and/or physical stats as high (and thus lower damage and survivability), I think you'll find them getting beaten to the ground nearly instantly (pending the actual damage numbers).

Classes who aren't full BAB SHOULD BE worse at both offense and defense. BAB is your basic fighting ability.

Classes without full BAB should get beaten to the ground in close combat against classes with full BAB.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-02-27, 02:36 PM
Classes who aren't full BAB SHOULD BE worse at both offense and defense. BAB is your basic fighting ability.

Classes without full BAB should get beaten to the ground in close combat against classes with full BAB.

Correct. Which they already due since they can't hit as well, or for as much damage, or survive as much damage (due to their lower attack bonus and typically lower damage and hit points). Typically magnifying that by making them worse at both offense and defense in addition to their abilities making them worse at offense and defense and then tying damage into both raw offensive abilities and raw physical abilities and weapons means that they're getting penalized multiplicative. Linear penalties makes them still poor at combat while not making combat impossible for them.

Mechanize
2013-02-27, 02:41 PM
Classes who aren't full BAB SHOULD BE worse at both offense and defense. BAB is your basic fighting ability.

Classes without full BAB should get beaten to the ground in close combat against classes with full BAB.

That is why I'm doing equal Combat Skills. I think a wizard should be able to duel with a fighter toe to toe. As far as I am concerned, that wizard was part of enough combat to see level X, hes just as experienced. Of course he duels in his own particular way, not with swords and armor but with magic and trickery.

I don't want a system to be one of "we have to protect the fragile wizard so he can demolish everything!" HP will be equal, only variating by constitution. Casters can wear armor if they choose and suffer the same penalaties to dodging but be able to recieve a lot of damage for multiple light hits.

Mechanize
2013-02-27, 02:54 PM
I also am having limited opposed defensive reactions. Another intent that if you let your self get surrounded, you better be wearing plate or you are probably dead. Limited reactions means you will get owned by multiple actions.

With that said... I am on the fence about how to resolve an unopposed attack. Right now, I just have people roll their damage. Its free damage basically. It makes sense, but just feels weird probably because of playing D&D for years and always rolling to hit... even if that hit is a given. What is your opinion?