OOTS #873 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Brom

2013-02-27, 02:37 PM

I expected more from an intelligent, potentially higher level Cleric who worked alongside a strategist of Tarquin's class, and had a host of vampiric abilities to draw on. The whole, 'oh my, he could throw Cure spells,' would have been MY concern (okay, I've played undead PC's, but -still-) from move one. Vamparism lends him a whole lot of mobility, and even if he didn't have HEAL to throw, even just continually hurling lesser cure spells would have ruined Malak - and that's exactly what Durkon could have done, since Durkon is a positive energy channeler. If Durkon cared to he could swap every single spell slot for cures.

So what on earth is Malak doing in his Touch range? It seems such an obvious pitfall. I mean, at least throw down a Shield of Faith or some other Touch AC boost?

Sad. Didn't expect Malak to die like a gimp before Belkar or Vaarsuvius could even show.

OhMyGodImOnFire

2013-02-27, 02:37 PM

Great comic Giant! :smallbiggrin: Can't wait to see how this battle ends.

Aotrs Commander

2013-02-27, 02:37 PM

Oooh nice! While the last cleric duel was hilarious, seeing one fought out..."properly" is great!

Silly vampire! Eat Heal, pointy-tooth!

Also, nice change to see a Dispel not working for the bad guys for once...

Bendal

2013-02-27, 02:38 PM

Will a vampire's regeneration heal back damage done to him by a Heal spell? If not Malack is in a world of hurt and had better get out of there immediately. Also, where's his coffin being kept, I wonder?

greatscott

2013-02-27, 02:39 PM

Heal baby Heal! (Disco inferno?)

Looks like Malack is not quite that high a level as thought...

MikelaC1

2013-02-27, 02:39 PM

And pay attention to this little nugget. He warded the cat too. Watch the cat come in for a killer backstab.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 02:39 PM

Blisstake

2013-02-27, 02:39 PM

A bit more involved than the last cleric duel :smalltongue:

Thanatosia

2013-02-27, 02:40 PM

Vampirism gives malak a lot of mobility, but it doesn't give him the ability to blast away like a evocationist at range. He kind of has to get close at some point, and Durkon had just lured him into the belief that he had expended his high level spells earlier.

Anarion

2013-02-27, 02:40 PM

Wow, the action is coming fast and furious all of a sudden. Awesome!

And as people have already noted, is appears that the effects budget has been upgraded a bit since Redcloak was having his run. Though I suspect that Redcloak would still dominate the both of them if he were here at the moment.

He's uh...not here at the moment, is he? :smalleek:

Oooh nice! While the last cleric duel was hilarious, seeing one fought out..."properly" is great!

Silly vampire! Eat Heal, pointy-tooth!

Also, nice change to see a Dispel not working for the bad guys for once...

I was going to say something about how I'm surprised that you were rooting for the one casting the positive energy spells. Then I remembered it's a vampire and suddenly everything made sense.

Alex Star

2013-02-27, 02:41 PM

Sad. Didn't expect Malak to die like a gimp before Belkar or Vaarsuvius could even show.

as a T1 class Cleric is OP on it's own. Being undead actually creates the issue of adding more vulnerabilities. Sure Malak gets some nifty powers being a vampire, but lets be honest here, they didn't make him a better Cleric, all they did was make him extra-vulnerable to the things a positive energy channeler can do.

And aren't a vast majority of a vampires serious abilities "touch" effects. That would explain why Malak made the mistake of getting into touch range with Durkon.

ThePhantasm

2013-02-27, 02:42 PM

Durkon badassery... I love it!

PhantomFox

2013-02-27, 02:43 PM

Nice perspective shot with the Thor's Lightning.

dethkruzer

2013-02-27, 02:44 PM

By his noodly appendages, you're on a roll Rich. Awesome comic, really looking forward to how this turns out.

Dr.Gunsforhands

2013-02-27, 02:44 PM

Huh. I didn't expect Durkon to be winning.

Then again, I didn't expect another comic so soon, either. I hope Sir Thumb's not overdoing it.

Alaris

2013-02-27, 02:44 PM

Woah, comics are coming out really fast! And I'm loving it!

Very nice comic!

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 02:45 PM

Whoa! What's this? Two comics in as many days? Not that I don't love the speed but be careful that you don't strain yourself there, Giant. Maybe consider easing back into things?

Still, I love the Princess Bride feel of this fight.
But I KNEW you would put the poison in my cup, and therefor I switched cups, which you knew I would do, so you put the poison in your own cup, but I knew that you would know to do that, and so I did NOT switch the cups, which you undoubtedly predicted, and hence....

Tridax

2013-02-27, 02:46 PM

I've just thought about it for a second. Malak can not die that easily (not ASOIAF after all). And his children problem is still not resolved. So what if Vaarsuvius suddenly rushes in, something happens that Malak mentions his children 'not being avenged' or something like that...

The rest is blurry, but I can imagine V doing something that would turn the outcome in another way. The thing is, V is already balancing on a rope with all the 'child' stuff.

Armaius

2013-02-27, 02:47 PM

I love how quick these are coming out.

This fight is shaping up to be awesome! (Though not nearly as good as our first Battle of the Clerics :smalltongue:). Go get 'em Durkon!

ThePhantasm

2013-02-27, 02:47 PM

Whoa! What's this? Two comics in as many days? Not that I don't love the speed but be careful that you don't strain yourself there, Giant.

Three. And Rich would prefer people not to give him advice on his thumb.

And if it gets to the point where I think that continuing will, in fact, overtax it, then I'll stop. That's why I didn't formally announce, "This is the nine-in-a-row."

But at the risk of being rude, that's my call to make, not anyone else's. I'm the one who is living with the pressure of a hundred or more pages of unfinished commitments that people paid for over a year ago. If I think I can clear one of those off the plate, then I'm going to. I would be working on pages every day right now regardless, it would just be for one of the backer stories that you then saw all at once. This is no different than that.

Further, when I made that commitment in the first place, it was ALWAYS my intent to honor it at this exact point in the story. It's just that we were supposed to get here last September or so.

So, while I always appreciate well-wishes and encouragement, it's my call.

t209

2013-02-27, 02:48 PM

Anarion

2013-02-27, 02:48 PM

Actually, now that I think of it, I wonder if we should have expected some awesomeness as soon as we realized Durkon was alone.

The Giant has discussed how the caster classes can dominate large fights if allowed to rampage unchecked, and specifically explained in War and XPs how he separated V during the Azure City battle so that V could cut loose without eclipsing the rest of the party.

So, having Durkon alone here might well have been an indication that clerics going all out against each other was the plan from the start, with the rest of the party out of the way to avoid complications or overshadowing other characters.

Prospero7

2013-02-27, 02:49 PM

Good stuff. I love cleric battles. :smallbiggrin:

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 02:49 PM

And aren't a vast majority of a vampires serious abilities "touch" effects. That would explain why Malak made the mistake of getting into touch range with Durkon.

Does it explain why Durkon is the only cleric we've seen who wears armor and carries a decent melee weapon? Cause I'm still wondering about that, actually. Because I can't think and any good not-fluffy justifications (I live at the temple and don't adventure, etc etc etc).

Dr. Gamera

2013-02-27, 02:49 PM

Alas, Belkar is still held, so he can't yet use his "class feature": Stab Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html).

ti'esar

2013-02-27, 02:50 PM

Does it explain why Durkon is the only cleric we've seen who wears armor and carries a decent melee weapon? Cause I'm still wondering about that, actually. Because I can't think and any good not-fluffy justifications (I live at the temple and don't adventure, etc etc etc).

Goblin clerics wear armor. And the nameless cleric of Loki had both armor and a mace.

Rui

2013-02-27, 02:51 PM

I think... I think he is going to spare Malack. Or V/Belkar will interrupt him to kill Malack. But I flippin' KNEW he was going to use heal! Battle ends now, Malack! :smallwink:

Eldest

2013-02-27, 02:51 PM

Hey, he was casting a negative energy spell, and had a good reason for it! Cool!

SavageWombat

2013-02-27, 02:52 PM

Durkon can't kill Malack by reducing his HP to 0 - that will force him to gaseous form and force his retreat.

Sure hope Malack has a coffin nearby - oh, wait...

Starbuck_II

2013-02-27, 02:52 PM

as a T1 class Cleric is OP on it's own. Being undead actually creates the issue of adding more vulnerabilities. Sure Malak gets some nifty powers being a vampire, but lets be honest here, they didn't make him a better Cleric, all they did was make him extra-vulnerable to the things a positive energy channeler can do.

And aren't a vast majority of a vampires serious abilities "touch" effects. That would explain why Malak made the mistake of getting into touch range with Durkon.

Too bad Durkon didn't dispel protection from sunlight.
A "killed" vampire turns to gas and has to return to his casket or die.
If he removed the sunlight protection, he can't escape to his casket without being in sunlight first.
So Malak might "live" after this fight.

hamishspence

2013-02-27, 02:53 PM

It would have to be his own, not just "a coffin".

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-02-27, 02:54 PM

I surely squealed in joy when I saw the last panel. Though i thought Malak would be more... lethal. Guess I underestimated Durkon.

Malak would be more lethal, but he explains that in this comic: "It is fairly difficult for a Vampire Cleric to find appropriate challenges." Vampirism is a +8 level adjustment, so if we assume that Malak is, say, a level or two higher than the Order (putting him somewhere between levels 13 and 15) he really doesn't earn much experience for anything below about CR 16-17. Durkon is a credible threat to him, but Malak probably wouldn't even get much XP from the fight because of how the XP system works.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 02:55 PM

May I take the time to remind people that Heal is exactly as dangerous as Harm and that Clerics get a good Will save (as well as high Wisdom), so it's a bit early to be declaring anybody dead?

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 02:55 PM

Goblin clerics wear armor. And the nameless cleric of Loki had both armor and a mace.

Ah, you're righ! I had totally forgotten about the cleric of Loki. He should make a comeback one of these days. :P

I wasn't certain about the goblins, and if it was armor or just regular clothes. I certainly don't see them with a lot of weapons; maybe they just haven't needed to draw them.

Shale

2013-02-27, 02:55 PM

Nice echo of Malack's fight with Nale.

Also, that's three days in a row with comics. Dare I hope...Is this the Kickstarter reward? We were promised another round of daily comics, which would come without warning.

mawexzon

2013-02-27, 02:55 PM

I love when strips come fast.

ThePhantasm

2013-02-27, 02:56 PM

Also, that's three days in a row with comics. Dare I hope...Is this the Kickstarter reward? We were promised another round of daily comics, which would come without warning.

Check the Kickstarter thread, where the Giant answered this at length.

Kurald Galain

2013-02-27, 02:57 PM

C-H-E-C-K.

...what? :smallcool:

attriel

2013-02-27, 02:57 PM

I warded the cat, too, in case you're wondering.

LOL!

How many spells did you use to find this place? !!!

and ... oops, malack!

Gift Jeraff

2013-02-27, 02:58 PM

Go, Durkon, go!

Douglas

2013-02-27, 02:58 PM

I don't get the joke about "going blind from bolstering myself". Could someone explain that one?

Surfing HalfOrc

2013-02-27, 02:59 PM

Wow! The comic is coming fast and furious!

So many people forget "Heal" spells do damage to undead. Just like counterspell stops spellcasting. :smallwink:

Shale

2013-02-27, 02:59 PM

Check the Kickstarter thread, where the Giant answered this at length.

So he did. Thanks, Rich!

Mr.Rictus

2013-02-27, 03:00 PM

Well. I'm surprised Durkon is handling himself so well. However, I really, really doubt that Malack is down for the count. Also, gotta say, but Durkon was awesome^^

Alex Star

2013-02-27, 03:00 PM

Malak would be more lethal, but he explains that in this comic: "It is fairly difficult for a Vampire Cleric to find appropriate challenges." Vampirism is a +8 level adjustment, so if we assume that Malak is, say, a level or two higher than the Order (putting him somewhere between levels 13 and 15) he really doesn't earn much experience for anything below about CR 16-17. Durkon is a credible threat to him, but Malak probably wouldn't even get much XP from the fight because of how the XP system works.

Given this math i'd assume that Malak is actually a level or two lower than the party. Remember he's a part of his own adventuring party.

He traded class levels for a +8 level adjustment. There is a good chance he's behind Durkon in turms of actual Cleric levels. Which means that he's behind him in terms of Spells as well, which pretty much means he was overmatch from the start here.

Grey_Wolf_c

2013-02-27, 03:01 PM

I don't get the joke about "going blind from bolstering myself". Could someone explain that one?

It is usually a different activity that one does to one's self that is said to blind you. This activity typically involves certain magazines with adult content and teenager boys locked in their rooms.[/circumspect]

Grey Wolf

Kish

2013-02-27, 03:02 PM

I don't get the joke about "going blind from bolstering myself". Could someone explain that one?
Malack is saying Tarquin makes jokes about using Bolster Undead on oneself being like masturbating.
[/blunt]

ReaderAt2046

2013-02-27, 03:03 PM

1. Wow these are coming out fast! Did the Giant do this on purpose so as to make the fight scene more exciting?

2. Durkon's doing better than I expected! Good for him!

3. What will happen next, I wonder? Tarquin? Xykon showing up and the two clerics allying against him?

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 03:03 PM

I don't get the joke about "going blind from bolstering myself". Could someone explain that one?

We'll explain it to you when you're older. :smallbiggrin:

P.M. if you still don't get it

Edit: Swordsaged! D'oh!

KillianHawkeye

2013-02-27, 03:03 PM

Things just got REAL up in here!

I don't usually post in the individual comic discussion threads, but this one was just top notch! Loved the Quickened ILW after the way the last comic ended, too.

:smallbiggrin:

Glich

2013-02-27, 03:04 PM

Durkon can do some good banter.

Perhaps he trying to stall so our Favorite halfling death machine can join the fun.

Silverraptor

2013-02-27, 03:04 PM

This is so awesome!:smallbiggrin:

Yendor

2013-02-27, 03:05 PM

With all these cliffhangers, I hope someone's been putting skill points into Climb.

Dr. Gamera

2013-02-27, 03:05 PM

It is usually a different activity that one does to one's self that is said to blind you. This activity typically involves certain magazines with adult content and teenager boys locked in their rooms.[/circumspect]

Not just boy humans, either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)

It would be presumptuous of me to speculate whether, like Roy, you dream of the day when you will learn to stop asking questions to which you will regret learning the answers.

Procyonpi

2013-02-27, 03:05 PM

Awesome, I saw the heal coming.

I also like how the stakes are increased every time Durkon fights now that we're on the second to last gate, because of the prophecy.

EccentricFellow

2013-02-27, 03:06 PM

This is the liveliest we have seen Durkon since he smacked down the druid. Most excellent! I like Malack but am also glad to see Durkon standing tall. :)

Plus the crack about his mothers' cooking is great. Ahhh, the memories....

Dada

2013-02-27, 03:08 PM

Hope the Giant don't burn out from this fast update schedule, but love the updates.

Also compare this cleric battle with this one:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

:smallbiggrin:

LuPuWei

2013-02-27, 03:08 PM

:smalleek: Whoa! And Durkon proves once again that he's a badass :smallcool:

Is it time for the first of the comics many affably evil characters to kick the bucket?

RMS Oceanic

2013-02-27, 03:09 PM

It's been a while since Durkon had a chance to really show us what he can do. It feels good. :smallsmile:

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:09 PM

I'm not so enthused about the possibility of all this ending so quickly. Durkon gets to be badass, and promptly goes back to being the exact same. Chances of character development seem slim if he wins like this. :smallsigh:

And may I reiterate: Heal is not save-or-die.

ObeyMyBrain

2013-02-27, 03:10 PM

Durkon probably dreams of the moments he gets to take down high level undead and how to do it.

rgrekejin

2013-02-27, 03:11 PM

Well, I'm pretty impressed with how this fight is going for Durkon, but again, let's not call it before it's over. The twists have been coming at a rate of one per comic recently.

Shale

2013-02-27, 03:11 PM

And may I reiterate: Heal is not save-or-die.

It's not, but it is "save or be put in a very untenable situation, including vulnerability to the 'Quickened CLW' trick." As Malack himself has exploited in the past.

Belsirk

2013-02-27, 03:12 PM

New comic is up.

WOW! Redcloack will be very jealous of this Cleric fight!

Xelbiuj

2013-02-27, 03:13 PM

Brom

2013-02-27, 03:13 PM

The sheer... density of it all is making me expect that something bad is going to happen. Really, really bad. Not sure for whom.

Someone with 35 years of adventuring experience should have more sense about their own weaknesses than that. Something is up. :smallconfused:

I would really hope so. For all of Durkon's "You should have spent MORE time adventuring," what I've gathered was that Malak has spent twice as much time adventuring as Durkon has...sure, the past decade or so has been cozy politicking, but it's not like you ever forget the dungeon =P FFS, that's what they bonded over initially! Shared dungeon experience. So it feels out of place.

I hope Malak came back to Touch range because he had something he -really- wanted to fire off.

Like Empowered and/or (okay, probably not and due to level) Maximized Destruction? Dunno. I'm going to go take a look at Vampires and Cleric spell lists in the SRD.

Vampirism gives malak a lot of mobility, but it doesn't give him the ability to blast away like a evocationist at range. He kind of has to get close at some point, and Durkon had just lured him into the belief that he had expended his high level spells earlier.

True, but a savvy Cleric is always holding a high level Cure just out of paranoia; if you don't know for sure that the Cleric's party hasn't nearly wiped out that day, assume they have one. Also, prepared spells are prepared for a variety of circumstances, and Durkon is a spontaneous caster. As long as he hadn't run into every circumstance that he'd prepped his high level spells for (and odds are he had a few like Raise Dead or other rather specific ones) he had the capacity to swap it for a powerful Cure spell. It DOES seem dense to me.

I think the thing I was most expecting to see was for him to scamper up a wall (Vampires have a constant Spider Climb effect) and try to sink a Dominating Gaze on Durkon.

Here's from the SRD:
Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

Also, as a CoDZilla Cleric (one who stacks buff spells and enhancements on themselves and their party once at Durkon's level where they have a Mass version of everything) Durkon would have had buffs anyways. It was worth leading in with Dispel Magic to begin with >.< So why he burned a Quickened Spell is beyond me.

Dunno. There seems to be a little more hoping and praying than seems wholly ordinate on Malak's part, Cleric or no.

Thomar_of_Uointer

2013-02-27, 03:14 PM

Wow, The Giant is updating like it's 2004!

It looks like the predictions about Malack being a high-level cleric were incorrect. His ECL is actually comparable to Durkon's level. In a duel with a good-aligned cleric, this makes his vampirism more of a liability than an asset.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:14 PM

It's not, but it is "save or be put in a very untenable situation, including vulnerability to the 'Quickened CLW' trick." As Malack himself has exploited in the past.

If the first panel of the next strip is 'CLW', I... will probably be disappointed, given the cliffhanger. There have been rather a lot of anticlimaxes recently.

It looks like the predictions about Malack being a high-level cleric were incorrect. His ECL is actually comparable to Durkon's level. In a duel with a good-aligned cleric, this makes his vampirism more of a liability than an asset.

No, his ECL is at least 20 or 21 (what's lizardman LA, again?)

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-02-27, 03:14 PM

That was EPIC.

Chessgeek

2013-02-27, 03:15 PM

Smart plays by Durkon, foolish by Malack. What was that, three spells wasted? Glad this version of the cleric battle has some special effects. And another comic making good use of the camera angles! I wonder if Durkon can actually win this? I didn't think so going in, but he's put up stiff resistance so far.

The Black Cat

2013-02-27, 03:15 PM

This speedy update pace is bliss!

873

2013-02-27, 03:15 PM

I felt like registering to comment on this strip (hence my username). I've considered registering at some other points, but never felt motivated enough until now. I'm enjoying the combat between Durkon and Malack and I'm glad Durkon is getting to battle in great detail. He seems to play a support role in a lot of the fights, so its fun seeing him play a more primary role.

I've been reading Oots a while now (I forget which strip, but it was probably some time during the party's separation) and it's always nice when it updates. The rapid-fire updates of these last few days have been surprising and pleasant. I'm not saying this to sound impatient, I just enjoy reading this strip. I'm looking forward to seeing how this fight concludes, and it could go either way - Tarquin or somebody else could show up and change the course of the battle, or Malack could have some hidden spell. I'm kind of hoping neither of them dies, but I'll have to just wait and see what happens.

Drakeburn

2013-02-27, 03:15 PM

What an awesome fight.

And I'm glad the Giant is back on his feet (er, thumbs) again.

Alex Star

2013-02-27, 03:16 PM

Sweet.

Why did people think Malack was going to straight own him again?

The poison reminds me of the other topic.
Lirian didn't know poison was ineffective against undead, Malack didn't know it was ineffective against dwarfs.

What's with the high level adventurers screwing up poison? lol

Failed monster knowledge check. I mean it appears pretty clear that there aren't a TON of dwarves living in the overland. It's quite possible that Malak has not had a ton of contact with them.

It's interesting to see characters mess up something that a player never would because you can't help but metagame even if you try to avoid it.

Thomar_of_Uointer

2013-02-27, 03:18 PM

Prediction:

Malack has maneuverability as an advantage. He can fly, and durkon is a slow dwarf. His best option right now is to run away, regenerate, and then come back. Durkon will eventually run out of spell slots (although the readers know that right now he's saving a planar ally to hold the Gate). If he can bolster himself with cleric buff spells, or make a few new vampire children, he'll fare even better.

Doxkid

2013-02-27, 03:21 PM

There's an off chance that Durkon just one-shot Malack. And by chance, I mean it's almost guaranteed if Malack has less than max health and Durkon rolled anything above minimum damage with Thor's Lightning.

150 damage is pretty rough, even when you have D12s for hit die. Even if he rolled 10s for every single hit die it's still going to be close.

So...Malack is probably down to 1 health. He'll half heal nect round, but that's still pretty bad.

Incom

2013-02-27, 03:21 PM

Snails

2013-02-27, 03:21 PM

as a T1 class Cleric is OP on it's own. Being undead actually creates the issue of adding more vulnerabilities. Sure Malak gets some nifty powers being a vampire, but lets be honest here, they didn't make him a better Cleric, all they did was make him extra-vulnerable to the things a positive energy channeler can do.

And aren't a vast majority of a vampires serious abilities "touch" effects. That would explain why Malak made the mistake of getting into touch range with Durkon.

Well, immunity to criticals, poisons, some enchantments, and 10/silver is a convenient defensive array, even if nothing easily stacks up on offense. (The fun begins when you can grapple enemies and your wizard friends casts Cloudkill on top of the fray.)

If you are skilled at hiding your "condition", getting in close has more advantages than disadvantages. No tactic is really without risk. Trading spells from a distance is a not a great choice either -- Durkon probably has substantially more HP.

Spuddles

2013-02-27, 03:21 PM

Oh man, what an awesome one. I love the action & banter!

I bet these ideas have been rattling around in the Giant's head for weeks and months, and he is finally getting to put them down.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 03:22 PM

Three. And Rich would prefer people not to give him advice on his thumb.

I kind of blundered into making that mistake last night. So let me just say that I greatly enjoyed this strip; as Roy once mentioned, Durkon'd be a pretty good warrior if he had a better head for numbers. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) Durkon has never been a slouch when its come to tactics, whereas Malack seems to have become complacent taking orders from a military genius like Tarquin.

Dire Lemming

2013-02-27, 03:27 PM

An enjoyable strip, because and in spite of its question-raising. Thanks for the updates, Giant; hopefully your thumb is faring better!

As to the plot itself, I seriously doubt Malack is "weak" enough to lose or unintelligent enough to not have a course of action if not plan.
Also, that suggestion might stem from bias: while I like both Durkon and he and would like to see neither die, Malack is increasingly getting to be my favorite from the entire strip. :smalltongue:

Vinsfeld

2013-02-27, 03:28 PM

In case somebody didn't see... Here's Rich's answer on tweeter.

Márcio Teixeira ‏@zaggzaguru

@RichBurlew Is this part of the kickstarter reward that you said that you would draw a new strip everyday for 8(?) days? btw, great strip.

Rich Burlew ‏@RichBurlew

@zaggzaguru That's the hope, but I don't have all 9-in-a-row done yet, so thumb might crap out before end. If so, I'll try again later.

Killer Angel

2013-02-27, 03:28 PM

That's WONDERFUL! :smallsmile:

(...and the death ward extended also to the cat is pure gold) :smallbiggrin:

Enero Irontoad

2013-02-27, 03:29 PM

Woo, Durkon, kickass!

Funny how some of us were assuming Belkar was about to die after #870, then at #872 thought Durkon was toast. I should have known tha Dwarf would put up a good fight. And yes, we get better special effects than that other duel between clerics.

I like how the last panel mirrors Malack's casting of Harm on Nale in #811, and as Malack is undead the Heal has the same effect on him. It would be a bit much to have the next comic start with Malack saying "Unnnh... I'm still... undead" and Durkon countering with "I'm na finished. Quickened Cure Moderate Wounds" though. :P

I would have expected a fizzle or some similar sort of effect to mark the failure of Malack's Dispel attempt. The dialogue of the characters makes what happened clear, but it doesn't have the same impact I feel we usually get with magic in the comic.

But that's just a little thing, and this was an exciting comic, especially as when I noticed a new comic was up I expected to see Durkon forced into a desperate defense at best. As cool and charming Tarquin and Malack can be (and undiplomatic Durkon was last comic, whether you agree with him or not), this scene makes us root for the hero, and that's a job well done.

Ellye

2013-02-27, 03:32 PM

They are coming out so fast and so good! This arc is getting intense.

Wow, the action is coming fast and furious all of a sudden. Awesome!

And as people have already noted, is appears that the effects budget has been upgraded a bit since Redcloak was having his run. Though I suspect that Redcloak would still dominate the both of them if he were here at the moment.

He's uh...not here at the moment, is he? :smalleek:Oh my, now I really want to see Redcloak walking interacting with Durkon and Malack at the same time.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:34 PM

But that's just a little thing, and this was an exciting comic, especially as when I noticed a new comic was up I expected to see Durkon forced into a desperate defense at best. As cool and charming Tarquin and Malack can be (and undiplomatic Durkon was last comic, whether you agree with him or not), this scene makes us root for the hero, and that's a job well done.

I'm not rooting for him; it seems that such an outcome would be narratively dull at best.

Zephyr1011

2013-02-27, 03:34 PM

I am assuming from the fact that it was the last panel in the strip that the Heal will not result in an easy victory for Durkon, that there will be some kind of twist. Oh well, at least we probably won't have to wait very long for it, extrapolating from the time between when the last few comics were uploaded.

Peelee

2013-02-27, 03:34 PM

Leave to grab some lunch and come back to a rockin' battle comic. Today is pretty sweet.

I'd like to throw my hat in the "lving Durkon's badassery" ring here.

Art Mage

2013-02-27, 03:34 PM

This has been awesome so far :smallsmile:. I still predict Malack retreats injured and later claims either Belkar or Durkon later :smallsigh:

Speaking of a bloody future, does anyone know how likely Belkar is to get out of Hold Person anytime soon?

Dr. Gamera

2013-02-27, 03:35 PM

I think the thing I was most expecting to see was for him to scamper up a wall (Vampires have a constant Spider Climb effect) and try to sink a Dominating Gaze on Durkon.

With a DC of, what, 17? (Feel free to let me know if I calculated that wrong.) Durkon is pretty likely to make his Will saving throw.

The Giant

2013-02-27, 03:36 PM

I am now going to rant:

I expected more from an intelligent, potentially higher level Cleric who worked alongside a strategist of Tarquin's class, and had a host of vampiric abilities to draw on.

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

sims796

2013-02-27, 03:36 PM

I'm not rooting for him; it seems that such an outcome would be narratively dull at best.

Meh, I don't really agree, bad guys doesn't always need to win to make a good story.

Dr. Gamera

2013-02-27, 03:37 PM

I warded the cat, too, in case you're wondering.

LOL!

I believe the inclusion of Mr. Scruffy to be a minor plot point that will come up later.

Peelee

2013-02-27, 03:37 PM

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

Acora

2013-02-27, 03:38 PM

This is why Durkon has always been one of my favorite members of the Order.

Clertar

2013-02-27, 03:39 PM

Holy sh*t!!! :smalleek:

The comic is sailing the stars in these last pages. I want moar :smalltongue:

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:39 PM

Meh, I don't really agree, bad guys doesn't always need to win to make a good story.

Oh, it's not that; I just think his dying would be a shame. Malack's continuing to be around would have interesting effects on Durkon. Dying would largely reduce the chances of that. :smallwink:

Cuthalion

2013-02-27, 03:39 PM

I am now going to rant:

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

Thank you for saying that, Giant. It's an awesome comic, and thank you so much for working on it and making it entertaining for all of us. Is this the update a day thing or what?

Grey_Wolf_c

2013-02-27, 03:41 PM

Thank you for saying that, Giant. It's an awesome comic, and thank you so much for working on it and making it entertaining for all of us. Is this the update a day thing or what?

Maybe, if the thumb holds up (Phantasm linked to Rich's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14791128&postcount=40))

GW

pjie2

2013-02-27, 03:41 PM

So...Malack is probably down to 1 health. He'll half heal nect round, but that's still pretty bad.
It would be pleasingly symmetric if Malack healed himself with a Harm spell.

sims796

2013-02-27, 03:41 PM

Oh, it's not that; I just think his dying would be a shame. Malack's continuing to be around would have interesting effects on Durkon. Dying would largely reduce the chances of that. :smallwink:

Oh yeah, well, that makes sense too, didn't even think of that!

Dr. Gamera

2013-02-27, 03:42 PM

I stumbled across some possibly scary foreshadowing in OOTS #834 (A Seasoned Woodsman) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html):

:roy: "I'm sick of fighting the Linear Guild when we're at some huge tactical disadvantage. For once, I want us to be the ones with the edge. So we're going to sit here and wait for our spellcasters if it takes all night and all day."

The Giant

2013-02-27, 03:43 PM

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

Not a mistake. Malack has Fast Healing.

Art Mage

2013-02-27, 03:43 PM

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

Yep. Sounds about right.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!?!

Grendus

2013-02-27, 03:43 PM

Well, immunity to criticals, poisons, some enchantments, and 10/silver is a convenient defensive array, even if nothing easily stacks up on offense. (The fun begins when you can grapple enemies and your wizard friends casts Cloudkill on top of the fray.)

If you are skilled at hiding your "condition", getting in close has more advantages than disadvantages. No tactic is really without risk. Trading spells from a distance is a not a great choice either -- Durkon probably has substantially more HP.

Not much of an advantage when you're starting from a cleric base though. Everything you get from vampirism can be replicated with spells from the basic cleric list, meanwhile you've traded 8 caster levels for a few at will SLA's, some touch attacks, and a few bog standard immunities. Vampires make decent monsters (because 2 CR isn't too harsh a penalty), and pretty good BBEG's due to their suite of minion abilities, but it's a terrible PC template.

Durkon probably has more cleric levels than Malack, even with his lower ECL, and good aligned clerics are better suited to take down undead than evil clerics are at taking down the living. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the battle ends anticlimactically with Malack running away. Regardless of whether or not Malack made his saving throw, he will still take 75 points of damage (Heal acts like Harm against undead, and Harm is only will save for half), if Malack has 15 hit dice with d12's that's about 2/3 of his average hit points in one spell. Tack that onto Thor's Lightning and a few hammer blows from Durkon and he's probably on his last hit points.

allenw

2013-02-27, 03:45 PM

If the first panel of the next strip is 'CLW', I... will probably be disappointed, given the cliffhanger. There have been rather a lot of anticlimaxes recently.

Unless the Heal actually managed to drop Malack to 0 HP (which by RAW it probably couldn't), then Malack will have an action before Durkon does (and even if Malack was at or below 0, as a vampire he could still flee, so that would be the first panel). That action will probably be "Harm", on himself (unless some third party such as Belkar or V gets a chance to act first).
While it would be hilarious if Durkon had thought to also include *Malack* in the Mass Death Ward (and thus render self-"Harm" ineffective), we saw the spell visibly target Belkar, but not Malack.
They seem to be standing next to each other. Theoretically, Durkon could disrupt Malack's casting with an attack of opportunity, but that didn't come up with Malack's Poison spell, or Durkon's Heal, so the AoO rules may be overidden by Rule of Drama.
Durkon is probably out of Heals, but he *could* then convert his Planar Ally or Resurrection spell into a Cure Critical Wounds to damage Malack. Not a great option, since that would blow a 6th or 7th level spell to do a maximum of 4d8+15 damage.

Also, as a CoDZilla Cleric (one who stacks buff spells and enhancements on themselves and their party once at Durkon's level where they have a Mass version of everything) Durkon would have had buffs anyways. It was worth leading in with Dispel Magic to begin with >.< So why he burned a Quickened Spell is beyond me.

It was a gamble. If Durkon *hadn't* remembered to include himself, then he could follow up the same round with Harm and possibly been very close to winning (or at least to making Durkon burn his Heal on himself). I agree that it wasn't a smart gamble, but Malack is under a lot of stress.

Grey_Wolf_c

2013-02-27, 03:46 PM

he's probably on his last hit points.

From my limited knowledge of D&D, I think that more correctly, he is probably on his last hit point, since Harm cannot reduce you beyond 1 HP.

GW

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 03:47 PM

Well, immunity to criticals, poisons, some enchantments, and 10/silver and magic is a convenient defensive array, even if nothing easily stacks up on offense. (The fun begins when you can grapple enemies and your wizard friends casts Cloudkill on top of the fray.)

If you are skilled at hiding your "condition", getting in close has more advantages than disadvantages. No tactic is really without risk. Trading spells from a distance is a not a great choice either -- Durkon probably has substantially more HP.

You need silver and magic to overcome a Vampire's DR. The thing is that Clerics do not really benefit from becoming a 3.5 Vampire the way that Fighters, Rogues, Wizards or Rangers do. It also helps if the character is an NPC and the DM is ignoring the Level Adjustment in favor of the boost to CR when designing the Vampire. Unfortunately, Malack is stuck in the OotSverse, where everyone, including NPCs need to earn XP and everyone is stuck with their LAs and ECLs. As a result Malack is probably only a level higher than Durkon at most, not the high level Cleric I'd assumed him to be. In addition, Malack is not relying on some of his best Vampire abilities, such as assuming Gaseous Form, summoning bats, rats or wolves, and thanks to the Mass Death Ward Malack can't inflict Negative Levels on Durkon.

If I were running Malack as a Vampire NPC I'd have him immediately assume Gaseous Form before being reduced to negative HP (unless the Heal spell took him to negatives) and start using guerrilla tactics against Durkon. If Malack flees, Durkon will need to cast remove paralysis on Belkar and then heal the both of them (possibly needing to cast Restoration on Belkar as well.) That gives Malack time to summon rats, send them to attack and then cast spells at Durkon. I don't see Giant having Malack doing this. He's been portrayed as too honorable; he wants to win this in a face to face confrontation. As seen from strip 859, Durkon has no problem fighting dirty when he has too.

That said, there are still prophecies hanging over Belkar and Durkon like Swords of Damocles! Still this is gearing up for the most exciting duel in the strip since V and O-Chul faced Xykon!

urandom

2013-02-27, 03:48 PM

Malack is most likely at 1 hp now. Even if he made his will save (which he more likely did) he'd lose 75 hp. Thor's lightning is ~35 damage on top of that. He seems to have less cleric levels than Durkon so he's 2 lizardfolk HD + ~11-14 cleric HD. So at 13 cleric levels ~ 90 hp + 15 temp from draining Belkar - belkar falling damage. That would put his ECL at the stratospheric 24. Unless he finds Zykons to fight regularly he's pretty much out of luck with getting more experience.

As an aside I love how Durkon implies that the reason for dwarf resistance to poison is terrible dwarf cooking.

Lheticus

2013-02-27, 03:51 PM

(snip) Unless he finds Zykons to fight regularly (snip)

Oh no you di'int!

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 03:51 PM

I'm not rooting for him; it seems that such an outcome would be narratively dull at best.

Even if Durkon works hard to defeat a sloppy villain like Malack? (Seriously, who tries to poison a Dwarf?)

Shale

2013-02-27, 03:52 PM

I am now going to rant:
My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

I think it's time to retire the hairstyles quote in my sig.

Peelee

2013-02-27, 03:53 PM

Not a mistake. Malack has Fast Healing.

Aha. I probably should have realized.

Brom

2013-02-27, 03:54 PM

Woo, Durkon, kickass!

I like how the last panel mirrors Malack's casting of Harm on Nale in #811, and as Malack is undead the Heal has the same effect on him. It would be a bit much to have the next comic start with Malack saying "Unnnh... I'm still... undead" and Durkon countering with "I'm na finished. Quickened Cure Moderate Wounds" though. :P

The one thing that stops me from anticipating that parallel is that we've seen no sign that Durkon actually HAS Quickened Spell. I imagine his feats are going to Combat Casting and other things that help shore him up as a warrior cleric in the thick of it using Healing spells with a Range of Touch that provoke AoO. Would be a terrible serendipity though.

From the GiantHere's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

I get a bit wordy here and the Giant deserves a response, so forgive me.

I'll lead in with an apology; I'm sure that this is a sore spot for you due to the frequency it occurs with, and had no intention of diminishing the comic as a whole. This is the first time (I believe) that I've posted anything like this; the imperfection of some of the characters is (usually) something that furthers the immersion, story, and characterization, however, so I want to emphasize that my own surprise and commentary on the current action in the narrative comes from it seeming out of character from Malak, in this particular battle.

As a Cleric, he knows what Clerics are capable of. As someone who has served alongside Tarquin and shown signs of contemplation, foresight, and intelligence, he's someone capable of putting together a good plan. As a Vampire who has figured out how to sustainably hide his condition, he is aware of his own weaknesses. So seeing Durkon seemingly shunt him at every turn is a bit stunning.

I suppose I did sound inappropriately jilted; I really like seeing stories that aren't fueled by brash action and bellicosity, so Malak wins major points as a character for me, and at the same time, there seemed to me a lot of buildup to suggest he was going to be quite the dangerous foe.

The difference feels worth pointing out to me; I admire good tactcs, but have understood that using spells that are saving throw as opposed to hit point based doesn't *look* very good in the visual medium. It's why Fireball is a favorite spell. At the same time, the amount of damage that Durkon can mete out on Malak seems so overwhelmingly tilted in his favor that I feel a bit stymied by what I see.

Anyways, I just want to leave off with this; please take this as a commentary on the current narrative (and I mean this panel, exclusively) and only that. This line of criticism on my part surely puts me in with the commentators you're mentioning (and I've seen the posts too, Giant) at first glance, and does a terrible job showing my fondness for the comic on the whole. I have recommended it to anyone I've ever seriously been friends with (even people who don't like D&D!) and have purchased all of the hardcovers, and read the things that shed more light on your process and thought as a storyteller (like your homebrew for the 'new world,' using D&D modern, or your Podcasts, Kickstarter commentary, etc) with quite a bit of admiration. I suppose it would be more encouraging and fair to include those kinds of comments; it's a human tendency to be silent in appreciation but vocal in complaint, yet that doesn't make me feel any better about having shown it.

If you did read all this, thank you. If you didn't, I understand; you've got quite an ambitious and admirable set of goals insofar as the art and stories you produce. I wrote it anyways because the quality of work and frustration you conveyed deserved a response, even if I frankly suck at keeping it succinct.

*goes and quietly occupies a corner now* :smalleek:

Tundar

2013-02-27, 03:54 PM

I am not going to make any predictions and instead sit back and enjoy this stream of great reads.

I'm with you on this one.
Where's my popcorn?!

Koo Rehtorb

2013-02-27, 03:55 PM

The artwork on the dispel was a bit unclear, at least without the characters to explain it.

Also, I'm still calling a Malack victory.

mawexzon

2013-02-27, 03:55 PM

The outcome more interesting narratively probably would be if Malack defeats Durkon and turn him into a Vampire, since that would cause big character development in Durkon, both moral and the whole "stopping being so necro-phobic(is that the word?) thing.

Alex Star

2013-02-27, 03:55 PM

Personally I enjoy being shown that at their base the PC's are not pushovers. Like most good guys they spend a lot of time in "retreat" mode. Fighting on the defensive requires that though.

It's nice when we get to see that when it comes down to it each of them is a fairly competent badass.

And to the incomparable Mr. Rich Burlew. I'm here because I love not only this webcomic but the world, characters, and story you've created. Thank you so much for staying devoted to this project despite all of the issues you've faced over the years.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 03:56 PM

Even if Durkon works hard to defeat a sloppy villain like Malack? (Seriously, who tries to poison a Dwarf?)

Yes. Because that makes this whole situation a grand lead up to... what? Anticlimaxes and a fight. Working hard changes nothing, in the end; it makes this whole thing feel like it's going in circles.

(Answer: someone banking on a bad roll)

Peelee

2013-02-27, 03:56 PM

*snip*

If it makes you feel any better, I got shut down too. :smallredface:

Barsoom

2013-02-27, 03:59 PM

They seem to be standing next to each other. Theoretically, Durkon could disrupt Malack's casting with an attack of opportunity, but that didn't come up with Malack's Poison spell, or Durkon's Heal, so the AoO rules may be overidden by Rule of Drama.Or the rules of Casting Defensively. I guess The Giant didn't feel the need to explain every little rule minutiae.

Tragak

2013-02-27, 04:02 PM

We'll explain it to you when you're older. :smallbiggrin:

P.M. if you still don't get it

Edit: Swordsaged! D'oh!

And here I thought that was just a joke about Durkon blinding V with Turn Undead :smallsigh:

allenw

2013-02-27, 04:02 PM

Or the rules of Casting Defensively. I guess The Giant didn't feel the need to explain every little rule minutiae.

Sure, Casting Defensively would cover it. I wasn't complaining, just noting that AoOs would have slowed down the flow of the action.

The Giant

2013-02-27, 04:03 PM

(snip)

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:03 PM

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

Here, here! Having DM'ed a large number of D&D 3.5 games with players who were much more proficient at pulling off perfect tactics using that rules system than I am (especially in the now defunct Living Greyhawk tournament system from the now defunct RPGA), I can definitely agree with the Giant. Fights that are over in less than 1 round are boring. Fights that are over during the surprise round are frustrating. Durkon is employing good strategies against Malack, in an exciting fight scene. Malack is making a number of assumptions that make narrative sense: Malack has not been adventuring in years. He's been mostly engaged in subterfuge as part of Tarquin's scheme. Vampires are very good at subterfuge. They don't really make good adventuring Clerics.

Furthermore Durkon has rarely gotten an oppurtunity to shine. He had the forbidden romance with Hilgya, the time he became the Bandit King, his backstory in OtOoPCs, his battle in Cliffport against Leeky and his bonding with Malack. Durkon deserves some spotlight time. The Giant deserves to tell his story as he wants to. (That won't stop me from guessing what Malack might do next, it just means I won't take it as a personal affront that the author chooses something else.)

Beelzebub1111

2013-02-27, 04:04 PM

150 damage is not an easy soak. He'll be left at one. luckilly vampires are tough to kill permanently. At zero he'll just turn to mist and get away.

Xelbiuj

2013-02-27, 04:04 PM

I hope my poison comment didn't help to set Rich off, I actually really like this comic. Been
Discussing their behavior, tactical as well as their interrelationships is interesting to me.

I'm sooo freaking glad Durkon is winning (atm). People need to stop fanboying on newer guys the second they show any prowess. lol

Mauve Shirt

2013-02-27, 04:05 PM

I'm just here to comment on how Durkon's a badass.

Brom

2013-02-27, 04:05 PM

If it makes you feel any better, I got shut down too. :smallredface:

Does make me feel marginally better for a reason I can't quite place, so thanks >.> /sheepish

Baah?

ReaderAt2046

2013-02-27, 04:06 PM

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

Malack fast-heals 5 points a round, so that may have something to do with it.

Barsoom

2013-02-27, 04:07 PM

... OotSverse, where everyone, including NPCs need to earn XPNot true. I can't link to the exact strip at the moment, but there was a gag with Crystal leveling up purely for plot reasons.

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 04:07 PM

Yes. Because that makes this whole situation a grand lead up to... what? Anticlimaxes and a fight. Working hard changes nothing, in the end; it makes this whole thing feel like it's going in circles.

(Answer: someone banking on a bad roll)

It's not "nothing"; the journey to get wherever you are going can be just as interesting as the destination.

It wouldn't make for a very good story (IMO) if the OoTS just walked right up to the Gate, even if it did get us to the conclusion faster. Fights can be plenty fun to watch on their own, as any big blockbuster Hollywood movie would tell you.

luc258

2013-02-27, 04:08 PM

Judging from past fights in the next panel Malack will probably show why he gets to be part of a highly expierenced former adventurer group. I'm sure he has some tricks up his sleeve and I think the Giant will find a nice way to surprise us as well.

Gift Jeraff

2013-02-27, 04:08 PM

Timberboar

2013-02-27, 04:08 PM

Heads up: The wall corner in Panel 6 seems to extend up into Panel 4.

Excellent read. Looking forward to the next twist.

AntiMatter101

2013-02-27, 04:08 PM

From my limited knowledge of D&D, I think that more correctly, he is probably on his last hit point, since Harm cannot reduce you beyond 1 HP.

Actually the way I read it is that if one saves for half damage, Harm cannot reduce you below 1 hit point.

Otherwise, (if you fail the save) it looks like Harm is totally capable of killing someone.

Shale

2013-02-27, 04:09 PM

Malack has not been adventuring in years. He's been mostly engaged in subterfuge as part of Tarquin's scheme. Vampires are very good at subterfuge. They don't really make good adventuring Clerics.

He's a vampire who specializes in subterfuge that includes hiding his true nature and a cleric of a death god. It makes perfect sense that a whole lot of his go-to tricks are going to be death effects, especially when he's suddenly having to plan around being the party first-aid kit when he picks his spells for the day, after umpteen years of not being an adventurer.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:09 PM

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 04:10 PM

I'm not sure why people expected Malack to be both Epic and supercompetent in battle. He utterly failed at catching Elan when he thought he was Nale. He also failed to catch Nale on the balcony, but I'll let that one slide since he was visibly distressed and caught off-guard.

As I said in comments on the previous strip, some posters adopt the attitude of "I like this character therefor they are good and justified in whatever they do and also superman... And any characters I don't like are evil and had it coming".

And they will stick to it, no matter what evidence you present to the contrary. (and there is precious little hard evidence compared to the level of ambiguity, me thinks)

Snails

2013-02-27, 04:11 PM

It would be pleasingly symmetric if Malack healed himself with a Harm spell.

Forcing Malack to use that spell is certainly a smart move.

mawexzon

2013-02-27, 04:11 PM

The word you're looking for is "vitalist".

That should work, thanks :smallwink:.

Zephyr1011

2013-02-27, 04:12 PM

I am now going to rant:

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

I fully support this. I mean, would you prefer to read a comic about perfect strategists, or see awesome battle scenes, like this.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:13 PM

Not true. I can't link to the exact strip at the moment, but there was a gag with Crystal leveling up purely for plot reasons.

She's Haley's personal nemesis! That lets her skip earning XP. Its just a loopyhole, to quote Elan. Otherwise, everyone needs to earn XP the old fashioned way, for example, the way Bozzok did by murdering his competition in the Thieves' Guild.

Brom

2013-02-27, 04:13 PM

If it makes you feel any better, I got shut down too. :smallredface:

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

Yeah, fair enough. Someone who has such a broad base of readership probably collects a startling amount of various criticisms with varying levels of legitimacy; I would have been startled if I never saw you rant, especially given the...fervor used on these forums at times >.>

Good lesson for me as a poster though. I forget that my words and impressions tend to be a little stronger than is wholly reasonable when I post commentary right after reading something. Simply writing as it comes to me more out of the emotional appreciation for a material than out of an overall impression of it with some time to read and soak it in is a good way to say things that seem unbalanced or unjustified.

Glad you're patient with us posters though, must be tempting just to ban some of us for not knowing better <.< Thanks Giant! :smile:

Squark

2013-02-27, 04:13 PM

Well, if Malak didn't make is saving throw, he's almost certainly been dropped to 1 hp (Average hp for even a 20th level vampire (All vampires have d12 hit dice, but no con bonus) is 130. Durkon's heal does 150 damage to undead since we know he can cast 8th level spells and is thus at least 18th level, but Heal cant put undead below 1 hp). Pity durkon didn't have a quickened CLW prepared, or he'd have dropped Malak this turn.

Well, pity for Durkon, anyway. I, on the other hand, am eagerly awaiting Malak's rebuttal

Timberboar

2013-02-27, 04:14 PM

I fully support this. I mean, would you prefer to read a comic about perfect strategists, or see awesome battle scenes, like this.

Frankly, it's too bad that they can't be one and the same. One of the failings in the system, imo.

ericgrau

2013-02-27, 04:14 PM

I'm on the edge of my seat.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:15 PM

That should work, thanks :smallwink:.

I can't take credit, its from the Disc World series. Reg Shoe is fond of invoking it when he takes umbrage.

Xelbiuj

2013-02-27, 04:16 PM

Well, pity for Durkon, anyway. I, on the other hand, am eagerly awaiting Malak's rebuttal

I doubt it will be more than *poof* /flies away

kxm

2013-02-27, 04:16 PM

I'm sure Malack has something else up his sleeve, but good to see that Durkon can definitely hold his own.

GSFB

2013-02-27, 04:17 PM

Regarding rules and strategies, what makes Rich so great as a story teller is that the characters are CHARACTERS and not PLAYERS. Players can spend hours a day, every day, plotting strategies to "win" in a game. Then when it comes to the game, a single round of combat - six seconds - can stretch out into an hour as players say "hang on a second, let me double check this rule" and "wait, let me do the math here before I tell you my action."

Characters (for this example, Malack and Tarquin) spend most of their time doing things like running an empire, administering justice, collecting taxes, torturing people, spying, manipulating, etc. They aren't number crunching and studying obscure supplements 24/7 (even if Tarquin does do this more than anyone else within the fictional world). When it comes to combat, they may have intelligence and experience, but like real soldiers in a real battle, they have to act fast and go on instinct.

And finally, when it comes to Malack, he is greatly weakened without Tarquin - who admittedly is far more strategic - there to give him orders. Think about players you have known who always rely on a more skilled player to coach them "use this spell!" when the situation arises. Malack seems to be one of these - on his own, he can get by most situations with raw power. But when facing a serious challenge on his own, he doesn't have the same savvy, and it shows.

Thank you, Rich, for writing characters as CHARACTERS. It makes the comic so much better.

Mantine

2013-02-27, 04:17 PM

Awesome strip, love when characters prove to be legitimately competent in a fight (rather than winning out of plot or other out-of-ability gimmicks).

MoonCat

2013-02-27, 04:17 PM

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:18 PM

As I said in comments on the previous strip, some posters adopt the attitude of "I like this character therefor they are good and justified in whatever they do and also superman... And any characters I don't like are evil and had it coming".

And they will stick to it, no matter what evidence you present to the contrary. (and there is precious little hard evidence compared to the level of ambiguity, me thinks)

Hey, I resent that! I happen to like Malack quite a bit. He is a complex and multifaceted character with interesting motivations. I also fully believe that he is a Lawful Evil abomination against life itself, a bloodsucking creature of the night who deserves to be tracked down to his lair and have a stake driven through his heart. The two are not mutually exclusive! :smallannoyed:

Snails

2013-02-27, 04:19 PM

Even if Durkon works hard to defeat a sloppy villain like Malack? (Seriously, who tries to poison a Dwarf?)

Well, yes. But I would chalk that up to good writing on the Giant's part.

His audience is not just D&D gamers.

A savvy player would never have Malack cast a negative energy spell on Durkon. A savvy player would never have Durkon attempt to turn. A savvy player would never cast Poison on a Dwarf Cleric. A savvy player would find using Heal in this manner very obvious.

But the larger audience cannot be counted on knowing these things. The Giant is demonstrating tactics that could be critically important in a fight with Xykon. He is carefully setting expectations on how the epic showdown could potentially play out.

Cuthalion

2013-02-27, 04:19 PM

Wasn't the Giant announcing when he was starting that week of straight OoTS strips? I mean, it's been three days in a row, so it looks like it's begun, but I've not seen an announcement. Either way, I love it, and I hope the Giant isn't burning himself out.

And Malack is still a BAMF.

And if it gets to the point where I think that continuing will, in fact, overtax it, then I'll stop. That's why I didn't formally announce, "This is the nine-in-a-row."

But at the risk of being rude, that's my call to make, not anyone else's. I'm the one who is living with the pressure of a hundred or more pages of unfinished commitments that people paid for over a year ago. If I think I can clear one of those off the plate, then I'm going to. I would be working on pages every day right now regardless, it would just be for one of the backer stories that you then saw all at once. This is no different than that.

Further, when I made that commitment in the first place, it was ALWAYS my intent to honor it at this exact point in the story. It's just that we were supposed to get here last September or so.

So, while I always appreciate well-wishes and encouragement, it's my call.

Hope that helped your confusion.

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 04:19 PM

Yeah, fair enough. Someone who has such a broad base of readership probably collects a startling amount of various criticisms with varying levels of legitimacy;

I recently discovered the Bad Wbcomics Wiki (http://badwebcomics.wikidot.com/) which has quite a few reviews of various comics; some of which I read, some of which I've merely heard of, and plenty that I didn't know anything about.

Now, there are plenty of comics I've tried and didn't like, but I never hated any of them enough to go and write up a complete review outlining each and every little mistake or error the author made. Some people are just incomprehensible like that, and it takes some effort to balance between being aloof and arrogant (which Giant is most definitely NOT, I just want to spell that out) and trying to please everybody.

Domino Quartz

2013-02-27, 04:20 PM

MoonCat

2013-02-27, 04:20 PM

Hope that helped your confusion.

Yep, just found it myself. Thanks!

Brom

2013-02-27, 04:21 PM

He's a vampire who specializes in subterfuge that includes hiding his true nature and a cleric of a death god. It makes perfect sense that a whole lot of his go-to tricks are going to be death effects, especially when he's suddenly having to plan around being the party first-aid kit when he picks his spells for the day, after umpteen years of not being an adventurer.

Hmm. This and other posts along this line actually DO help settle some of this and make sense of it. I was perhaps a little led to believe that he WOULD be more battle savvy than that just based on having a longtime relationship with Tarquin, yet the fact he doesn't really wear armor (although Vamparism adds a high Dexterity modifier, could it just be that he can't find armor that his Dex Bonus doesn't invalidate? He does seem to win Initiative readily) should have made me suspect as much.

Ultimately, I guess it hasn't really been made clear just WHAT his role in Tarquin's group is. Tarquin is demonstrably an excellent warrior and strategist, and has had that role in all the places we've seen his past referred, yet Malak is a bit of a mystery, for all the intelligence, rationality, and savviness he's historically displayed, a lack of familiarity with a task can very easily offset cool headedness and logic if you find your usual methods just don't work, or that you're not wholly familiar with what has to be done to win. Durkon DOES have that going for him, the guy is in the thick of it more often than not and is basically the second rank soldier of OOTS.

baerdith

2013-02-27, 04:23 PM

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

But the thing is, MOST PCs are played like that. The only "optimized" characters I have seen are on geekboards. Even if a PC starts as a minmax, the story will enevitably lead to changes.

How many of you have played D&D "perfectly"?
ost people WILL be idots in a battle. What's that quote "The best plan in the world doesn't survive the first attack"

I also want to say to Rich, its YOUR world, we are just grateful to be allowed to visit.

Keep up the GREAT work!

rgrekejin

2013-02-27, 04:23 PM

It would be pleasingly symmetric if Malack healed himself with a Harm spell.

Heh. Yup, Malack is one quick bit of self-Harm away from being right back in this fight.

...sorry, I couldn't resist.

But, at least if he's casting it on himself, he's not casting it on Durkon?

iyaerP

2013-02-27, 04:23 PM

Yep. Sounds about right.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!?!?!

I am very much entertained. This update was awesome.

Haluesen

2013-02-27, 04:24 PM

Wow, just wow. This is all absolutely crazy. XD Can't wait to see how this goes, I hope we have quite a bit more fight to see. This is excellent. I say wonderful work Giant, a bow before your greatness. :smallsmile: And also thank you for the frequent updating here in a time of much excitement. As just one fan of the so so many here, I'm sure you get that a lot but still, thanks for this story. :smallbiggrin:

Themrys

2013-02-27, 04:24 PM

The word you're looking for is "vitalist".

Durkon is so stubborn that I'm sure he is capable of internalized vitalism. :smalltongue:

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:25 PM

Regarding rules and strategies, what makes Rich so great as a story teller is that the characters are CHARACTERS and not PLAYERS. Players can spend hours a day, every day, plotting strategies to "win" in a game. Then when it comes to the game, a single round of combat - six seconds - can stretch out into an hour as players say "hang on a second, let me double check this rule" and "wait, let me do the math here before I tell you my action."

In my experience when I was DMing 3.5 players with that level of tactical superiority, that six second round rarely lasted more than ten minutes. Sometimes they could finish off a single enemy in the surprise round. :smallfrown: 3.5 had balance issues. Not so much in the core mechanics, but in the parts that could be cobbled together, like something stitched together in Grubwiggler's lab and set loose on an unsuspecting DM. On the other hand, 4E can be very punishing to a new player who doesn't realize he's not playing 3.5, and distributes his ability scores evenly. Ouch. Remeber kids: Always make sure you have at least a 16 in your attack stat before adding your racial ability bonus!

Barsoom

2013-02-27, 04:26 PM

I recently discovered the Bad Wbcomics Wiki (http://badwebcomics.wikidot.com/) which has quite a few reviews of various comics; some of which I read, some of which I've merely heard of, and plenty that I didn't know anything about.

Now, there are plenty of comics I've tried and didn't like, but I never hated any of them enough to go and write up a complete review outlining each and every little mistake or error the author made.That actually requires a very specific and rarely-encountered combination of love and hate, built on an unstable basis of a demented personality. And all this construction must hold up for long enough to actually type up those comments. Very rare.

Wrecan

2013-02-27, 04:27 PM

While it would be hilarious if Durkon had thought to also include *Malack* in the Mass Death Ward (and thus render self-"Harm" ineffective), we saw the spell visibly target Belkar, but not Malack.
Also, Malack would get a Will save he'd probably pass. Though I agree that would be hilarious!

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 04:27 PM

Hey, I resent that! I happen to like Malack quite a bit. He is a complex and multifaceted character with interesting motivations. I also fully believe that he is a Lawful Evil abomination against life itself, a bloodsucking creature of the night who deserves to be tracked down to his lair and have a stake driven through his heart. The two are not mutually exclusive! :smallannoyed:

Nor or they mutually inclusive. You can like a villian as a character just fine without going total fanboy on us. I'm a big fan of Tarquin, despite all the hate he gets for his Batman-ish (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyPrepared) qualities. But I don't assume that simply because I like him that means he's either good or invincible. I simply said SOME people adopt this attitude.

Chip on the shouler much? :smallsigh:

Nymrod

2013-02-27, 04:28 PM

pendell

2013-02-27, 04:29 PM

I am sorry to hear that the feedback the Giant gets from these forums dampens his enthusiasm for writing battle scenes. Because he writes good ones. Entertaining ones. The one I'm thinking of right now was the battle with the huge pit fiend back on the islands.

I enjoy this comic. If I discuss tactics, it is to improve my understanding of the game with other D&D players who are also reading these threads NOT criticize the author's grasp of tactics.

I see these conversations as sort of like armchair combatants refighting the battle of Waterloo hundreds of years after it was actually fought.

It's easy to criticize decisions when we're all sitting at our computers and we aren't, say, being charged by a 6' tall vampire with glowing red eyes. We have hours of time to leisurely consider the best possible action. Durkon had six seconds.

That's the difference between an armchair strategist and a combat veteran. Anyone can find the right answer six hours after the fact. A combat veteran is someone who can make a "good enough" decision in microseconds. It may not be the optimal decision. Heck, in hindsight it may have been a terrible one. But the fact is, he's alive and standing here, and his instincts kept him alive. That means it was good enough.

So, I , personally, would find it less realistic and entertaining if the characters did make the optimal decision all the time. Because combat is not chess. The more they make decisions rapidly and by instinct, the more it feels like a real fight and not ... not a bunch of college kids sitting at a table over beer and pretzels. Real combat is fought by trained instinct, not with complex spreadsheets.

So I think it is a hallmark of good writing if our characters make split-second decisions in the heat of the moment. And it is precisely because the characters are written well that their decisions are suboptimal and deserving of criticism by tactical experts.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

tanonev

2013-02-27, 04:30 PM

I would imagine that Malack, having suddenly and accidentally come out to a friend, and having said friend utterly reject him as a "monster" that needs to be stopped, might be juuuust a bit less than rational in this fight :smallamused:

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:31 PM

Well, yes. But I would chalk that up to good writing on the Giant's part.

His audience is not just D&D gamers.

A savvy player would never have Malack cast a negative energy spell on Durkon. A savvy player would never have Durkon attempt to turn. A savvy player would never cast Poison on a Dwarf Cleric. A savvy player would find using Heal in this manner very obvious.

But the larger audience cannot be counted on knowing these things. The Giant is demonstrating tactics that could be critically important in a fight with Xykon. He is carefully setting expectations on how the epic showdown could potentially play out.

Snails, I agree with you! Yesterday I thought that it was a foregone conclusion that Durkon was toast. Now I have hope that he might have a fighting chance because I've finally seen the way Malack's tactics are being portrayed. I think that Malack might have grown complacent with Tarquin calling the shots for their party. And Durkon has never been a slouch in the fighting department. I think that the fight is more even than I assumed it would be yesterday. I think that the conflict might take several strips as Durkon and Malack each try to gain the upper hand in this battle.

Tomada

2013-02-27, 04:32 PM

I am now going to rant:

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

I always feel you have things right Giant. And it is not to be expected from then to be mixmaxed.

For one, they were not expecting a 1v1 fight. Specially not a 1v1 fight against one another. And even then they don't know enough about each other to make the best tactical decisions.

From a meta viewpoint there will always be better ways to fight. But the characters have limited knowledge about the rules, the available options, the enemies and everything. They will never have optimal preparation.

And one thing is certain. Durkon was preparing to fight a Cleric AND a Undead(Redcloak and Xykon), so he has a great deal of advantage there too.

Tomada

2013-02-27, 04:34 PM

Also, it looks like Malack's neck wound is missing in panel 9. Though I think small mistakes are forgivable with the ridiculously fast updates recently

A round has passed. Vampires have fast healing.

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 04:35 PM

Hey everyone

I just logged in to ask, why do people find it so notable that someone, anyone, hates the undead? I find it perfectly natural and I wonder why Durkon gets criticized about it.

Also I think it would in my opinion be perfect dramatically if Durkon does take an AoO against Malack casting a Harm next round. He starts casting and gets whacked with the hammer. It still means nothing since killing a vampire is just not as simple as winning a fight.

Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people have the same attitude as Tsukiko: all undead are Edward (of Twilight infamy, and ignoring that he was an exception even in that universe). Or at the very least they think Undead are like the X-men, deadly and dangerous through no fault of their own, and persecuted for things beyond their control.

They seem to forget that 99% of undead are mindless, merciless husks, composed of rotting flesh and the remains of people you probably knew, who would like nothing more than to snack on your tender, tender frontal lobe.

Edit: I'm gonna channel Cracked.com here for a minute: it's kind of like how we always see the underdog win in the movies, so that's what we expect to happen in real life, despite not being true the majority of the time (that's why they are the underdog to start with).

When you have a movie or a book or comic or anything where the tender, thoughtful, humans-are-our-friends "monster" gets the most screetime, it's easy to forget that the other 20 members of his family are the complete opposite.

DemonicAngel

2013-02-27, 04:37 PM

Just came around to say that with all the excitement of everything happening, and the fast pacing of the comics, I'm squeezing with glee each time i see a new comic is up.

Thank you, Rich, for brightening my somewhat hard days!

weeping eagle

2013-02-27, 04:37 PM

$10 on KRAKAKOOOOOOOOM within 3 strips at 500:1 odds.

Nymrod

2013-02-27, 04:40 PM

Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people have the same attitude as Tsukiko: all undead are Edward (of Twilight infamy, and ignoring that he was an exception even in that univers). Or at the very least thinking Undead are like the X-men, deadly and dangerous through no fault of their own, and persecuted for things beyond their control.

They seem to forget that 99% of undead are mindless, merciless husks, composed of rotting flesh and human remains, who would like nothing more than to snack on your tender, tender frontal lobe.

The thing is on a D&D campaign world, an adventurer chooses to be undead. If a vampire is unwillingly afflicted, he just has to get his friends to kill and raise him; same for any other intelligent undead. Being undead come with particular cravings of a clearly selfish morality; you choose to energy drain and blood drain people when you insist on being a vampire when you don't have to be.

Gnoman

2013-02-27, 04:40 PM

That actually requires a very specific and rarely-encountered combination of love and hate, built on an unstable basis of a demented personality. And all this construction must hold up for long enough to actually type up those comments. Very rare.

I also feel compelled that several of the "bad" comics on that list are popular anchors of the webcomic community, and they feature on the list as much for the reviewer not liking that style of comic (Real Life, for example, is heavily panned for being a slice-of-life comic with serviceable art, which is exactly what people want and expect from it.) or deliberately inserting their own message into it and then complaining that it portrays that message badly.

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 04:40 PM

Hating mindless undead on principle makes perfect sense.

When you start to deal with those that retain all their mental faculties? Then there's a bit of an issue. Doesn't one setting have good-aligned elf liches, of all things? :smallconfused:

The thing is on a D&D campaign world, an adventurer chooses to be undead. If a vampire is unwillingly afflicted, he just has to get his friends to kill and raise him; same for any other intelligent undead. Being undead come with particular cravings of a clearly selfish morality; you choose to energy drain and blood drain people when you insist on being a vampire when you don't have to be.

Resurrect, not Raise Dead. Harder to get at, more expensive.

ThePhantasm

2013-02-27, 04:41 PM

It's all OK, no hard feelings. I sort of just wanted to get that off my chest anyway. It's gotten to the point where it hurts my enthusiasm for drawing battle scenes, knowing that some people will use them to prove why Character X is an idiot for not casting Spell Y.

For what its worth, I've yet to see a battle scene that I haven't enjoyed in OOTS... I enjoy the "special effects" of each battle. The V / Xykon fight and the Roy / Thog arena fight are definitely highlights.

I wouldn't let it hurt your enthusiasm too much. Its the internet, there will always be people who love something and people who don't love it. You can't please everyone, no matter how hard you try.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:44 PM

And one thing is certain. Durkon was preparing to fight a Cleric AND a Undead(Redcloak and Xykon), so he has a great deal of advantage there too.

Roy and Durkon have been discussing strategies and tactics to use against Xykon and Redcloak since they set sail for the Western Continent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). It makes sense that Durkon would be getting ready for a challenge like this. (Though I doubt their plans called for splitting the party! :smallbiggrin:)

My guess is that Malack is either rustier than Tarquin is or he became reliant on Tarquin's guidance in combat.

Brom

2013-02-27, 04:44 PM

*snip*

Yeah, I agree with all of this; by and large, tactical soundness of a character is most plausibly (in my mind) determined by their Int, Wis, overall experience, and the situation. A lot of the 'unsound,' decisions (even ones that are outright called out on as being unsound) actually make a whole lot of sense.

My confusion in this specific instance had a lot to do with two Clerics (same class) who had spent a lot of time around one another talking about their adventuring days (knew one another's capabilities) in a fight they had both seen coming for between the past 20 seconds to two minutes (so the chance to be somewhat collected, especially with their Wisdom/Will Saves) and Malak's own intellect (he at least SEEMS very well versed between his magical library and how quickly he sorted out the limits of Nale's escape, although at Malak's level you could very well have an Intelligence PENALTY and still seem savvy if you put enough ranks in a skill; D&D is funny like that) that Malak could have made some very sound decisions pretty believably, or at least showcased some caution in knowing which decisions would make him die screaming.

Stuff like how Tsukiko tried to teleport out of grapple (even though the room was warded) or how Vaarsuvius used Dimensional Anchor on Xykon (arrogant enough to think s/he'd win) or how Vaarsuvius tried to just banish the Pit Fiend (s/he likes to be prepared and likes easy one spell solutions as a wizard) before just cutting into it with evocations (evocation is V's specialty) made sense, even if none of these things WORKED OUT; the Wis/Int of the characters, overall experience, and circumstances all made these things feel believable, whereas Malak's own decisions seem somewhat less so to me (M is a cleric, high Int/Wis, longtime adventurer, etc).

Mostly (owning up to my own fanboyism?), I was bothered because Malak dying in a one sided fight seems to be a lesser send off than I think a character like that deserves; although maybe undercutting the appearance of competence that Tarquin's group has is Giant's goal? Malak dying ignobly and brutally to Durkon would certainly do that. I try not to ask, 'What does the author want me to think,' directly when reading something XD

An epic fight, regardless of the intelligence displayed, is always awesome to see drawn, so it makes me a tad pensive to see a character I'm attached to seemingly beaten back so one-sidedly. (I still WANT to see him beaten one way or another, he's not a protagonist)

Dwy

2013-02-27, 04:50 PM

Could this be one of the kickstarter-encores we're seeing right now?

It'd make a lot of sense from a marketing perspective too, to run constantly for the first while after recovery (recovery to being able to draw, that is, more than that I don't know), so that we, the readers go back to our old "time to check giantitp.com"-habits.

Doran

2013-02-27, 04:52 PM

It's not over yet...

Skull the Troll

2013-02-27, 04:54 PM

In regards to the Giants' rant: Bravo Giant, not only are all of these people working against the interests of the story, they are exactly the sort of pain in the %$^ I hate playing D&D with. We have a standing rule at our table, "The DM may change any rule that is brought up at the table." If your elf ranger is immune to the sleep effect, you may not be, or the sleep effect may become an acid effect, who knows? these people kinda take over the forums here too. Go back and look at any comic update post. pages 1-2 are grats and wows, somewhere around page three people starting bring up rules points and by page 6-8 its practically a flame war. Some where after that someone posts the link to your statements about the rules are your fuzzy little plaything and you can alter them whenever you darn well please. Thread dies off shortly thereafter.

Thanks for all the rapid updates. I absolutely love seeing that little one box on my RSS feed!

Rogar Demonblud

2013-02-27, 04:54 PM

The only thing about this turn of events that upsets me is that it seriously cuts down on the probability of Belkar going vampire, which is about the only way I can see for him to get the WIS boost needed to cast 1st level spells.

Mainly because that's a vital prereq for something I've wanted to see ever since he threw an angry housecat at Tsukiko's face.

See if you can finish the progression.

1) Mr. Scruffy
2) Magic Fang
3) __________!

zimmerwald1915

2013-02-27, 04:57 PM

1) Mr. Scruffy
2) Magic Fang
3) __________!
3) Mehrwert?

ThePhantasm

2013-02-27, 04:58 PM

Could this be one of the kickstarter-encores we're seeing right now?

Check the Kickstarter thread for Rich's answer to this question.

Barsoom

2013-02-27, 04:59 PM

Commander672

2013-02-27, 04:59 PM

The Ultimate Duel Between Clerics has begun!
And not a single save was thrown that day!:smalltongue:

I do love the contrast between natural strengths and stats against bookworming and spell buffs.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 04:59 PM

Hating mindless undead on principle makes perfect sense.

When you start to deal with those that retain all their mental faculties? Then there's a bit of an issue. Doesn't one setting have good-aligned elf liches, of all things? :smallconfused:

The Forgotten Realms has two types of good Liches: Baelnorn are elves who choose to become liches to serve the Elven community, while Archliches are good liches. Both are incredibly rare. (In 4E, Archliches are available as an Epic Destiny for PCs in the Arcane Power supplement. I'm not sure if Baelnorn were described or not.)

The difference between Archliches and Baelnorn on the one hand, and Vampires, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, Cannibal Zombies, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Cerebral Vampires, Paenenngallen and any other Undead that consumes the flesh, blood, brains, souls or life energy of living beings, in the process creating spawn of their kind, on the other, is that Archliches and Baelnorn a) are always volunteers; no one can be forces to become a Baelnorn against their will; b) they don't eat people; c) they contribute to their community by guarding ancient tombs and/or knowledge (I'd add Crypt Things as well); d) they don't eat people; e) they are incredibly rare; f) they don't eat people; g) in 4E, Archliches who reach 30th level and complete their Destiny Quest abandon their Undead bodies and enter the afterlife; Baelnorns eventually join the Seldarine as petitioners and abandon their Undead bodies; and finally, h) they don't eat people!

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 05:00 PM

hamishspence

2013-02-27, 05:03 PM

(In 4E, Archliches are available as an Epic Destiny for PCs in the Arcane Power supplement. I'm not sure if Baelnorn were described or not.)

The difference between Archliches and Baelnorn on the one hand, and Vampires, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, Cannibal Zombies, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Cerebral Vampires, Paenenngallen and any other Undead that consumes the flesh, blood, brains, souls or life energy of living beings, in the process creating spawn of their kind, on the other, is that Archliches and Baelnorn a) are always volunteers; no one can be forces to become a Baelnorn against their will; b) they don't eat people; c) they contribute to their community by guarding ancient tombs and/or knowledge (I'd add Crypt Things as well); d) they don't eat people; e) they are incredibly rare; f) they don't eat people; g) in 4E, Archliches who reach 30th level and complete their Destiny Quest abandon their Undead bodies and enter the afterlife; Baelnorns eventually join the Seldarine as petitioners and abandon their Undead bodies; and finally, h) they don't eat people!
4E (Open Grave) does manage to have Unaligned Vampires that eat people- Vampire Muses.

They find artists, inspire them to heights of creativity, and drink from them, a bit at a time.

The artists tend to die young as a result.

Geezlewark

2013-02-27, 05:03 PM

I don't think the fight's over yet. :smallamused: There is going to be some kind of dramatic turn-a-round, and I predict that it's going to involve Malack's staff (in comic #871). He has a number of charges on that thing (what spells?), and perhaps this could turn the tide.

mawexzon

2013-02-27, 05:04 PM

It's a bit jerkish, as a DM, to decide that a racial bonus that has been present since character creation should be met with overturning rules, thereby nullifying part of the reason to pick that race in the first place. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, houserules like that should be established from the start, and not changed until a new adventure starts.

ThePhantasm

2013-02-27, 05:04 PM

Nymrod

2013-02-27, 05:05 PM

The Forgotten Realms has two types of good Liches: Baelnorn are elves who choose to become liches to serve the Elven community, while Archliches are good liches. Both are incredibly rare. (In 4E, Archliches are available as an Epic Destiny for PCs in the Arcane Power supplement. I'm not sure if Baelnorn were described or not.)

The difference between Archliches and Baelnorn on the one hand, and Vampires, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, Cannibal Zombies, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Cerebral Vampires, Paenenngallen and any other Undead that consumes the flesh, blood, brains, souls or life energy of living beings, in the process creating spawn of their kind, on the other, is that Archliches and Baelnorn a) are always volunteers; no one can be forces to become a Baelnorn against their will; b) they don't eat people; c) they contribute to their community by guarding ancient tombs and/or knowledge (I'd add Crypt Things as well); d) they don't eat people; e) they are incredibly rare; f) they don't eat people; g) in 4E, Archliches who reach 30th level and complete their Destiny Quest abandon their Undead bodies and enter the afterlife; Baelnorns eventually join the Seldarine as petitioners and abandon their Undead bodies; and finally, h) they don't eat people!

Crypt Things were changed into those positive undead things from BoED anyway, and in all fairness so should baelnorn considering they are created through elven high magic rituals.

As for the fact that their diet is enforced on them and have no way of avoiding it, I don't consider that reasons for a moral gray ground. If I needed a liver and there was no transplant around but I knew a guy who had a match, killing him and taking his liver would never be considered anything but evil, even if I had no other way to survive. That is exactly what the majority of undead do on a daily basis. Intelligent once are doubly damned. They could seek at least seek destruction.

Luka

2013-02-27, 05:06 PM

It's funny because Heal in videogames is usually either the most basic or the 2nd healing spell

Jiggs

2013-02-27, 05:06 PM

This may not contribute to the discussion but, I wanna say,
I LOVE IT !!!

sam79

2013-02-27, 05:06 PM

Great strip! I know this fight probably isn't over yet, but GO DURKON! I knew you could do it! Awesome.

hamishspence

2013-02-27, 05:07 PM

So the vampires are like plagiarists?

More like a supernatural version of Shakespeare's "dark lady".

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 05:07 PM

In regards to the Giants' rant: Bravo Giant, not only are all of these people working against the interests of the story, they are exactly the sort of pain in the %$^ I hate playing D&D with. We have a standing rule at our table, "The DM may change any rule that is brought up at the table." If your elf ranger is immune to the sleep effect, you may not be, or the sleep effect may become an acid effect, who knows?

Hmm. It sounds like your GM might find more enjoyment running Paranoia. In Paranoia the players do not have security clearance to know the rules of the game, and the GM is encouraged to change things just to keep them guessing! Paranoia is a fun game! Friend Computer says so! Your DM would find it much easier than playing Non-Fun Games. Only Commie-Mutant-Traitors like to run Non-Fun Games! Is your GM a Commie? I sure hope not! :smallbiggrin:

MeanMrsMustard

2013-02-27, 05:09 PM

1. All the battle scenes so far (yes, even the ULTIMATE DUEL BETWEEN CLERICS (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)) have kept me entertained, even if I'm more into the character-based plotting. I never think of OotS in terms of D&D anyway, so I've never thought along the lines of why doesn't Character X use Spell Y? or whatever. :smalltongue:
2. I think by now I should have learned to not try and predict what'll happen next. So I'll just sit back while the run of strips is going.

Threadnaught

2013-02-27, 05:09 PM

I am now going to rant:

*snip*

It's a very well written story and it's great to see the characters' personalities shine through no matter what actions they take.
I'm actually kinda sad that Durkon won't come to any compromize with Malack and that they have to fight, but bravo sir, they're both fighting like gentlemen as they were expected to.

I'm also amazed at the speed of these updates, afaik that's two sine I checked last week and another since this morning. I'm glad your recovery has been going so well.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm waiting to see if Belkar's alignment chages. From Chaotic EVIL, to Chaotic Evil. :smallamused:

oppyu

2013-02-27, 05:10 PM

He may not get the most character development, but Durkon has shown time and time again that he is awesome.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 05:10 PM

4E (Open Grave) does manage to have Unaligned Vampires that eat people- Vampire Muses.

They find artists, inspire them to heights of creativity, and drink from them, a bit at a time.

The artists tend to die young as a result.

I assume the artists get full disclosure ahead of time that their "muse" is going to drink their blood? And they make sure to keep the artist alive? Because otherwise it doesn't sound too different from some of the arrangements Lady Kazandra has with members of the Kargatane...

Adeptus

2013-02-27, 05:11 PM

Awesome strip. Nail bitingly exciting, and with excellent jokes.

Also one / day strips this week! Mind - blown!

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 05:12 PM

As for the fact that their diet is enforced on them and have no way of avoiding it, I don't consider that reasons for a moral gray ground. If I needed a liver and there was no transplant around but I knew a guy who had a match, killing him and taking his liver would never be considered anything but evil, even if I had no other way to survive. That is exactly what the majority of undead do on a daily basis. Intelligent once are doubly damned. They could seek at least seek destruction.

It takes a vast amount of willpower to actively seek out your own demise. I really do wish 'not doing your best to die' would stop being declared evil so readily.

ZerglingOne

2013-02-27, 05:13 PM

Oh man, 75-150 damage to a character with no con modifier. Barring Gaseous Form, Malack is in some serious trouble here. One more of those and Malack's gonna need to fly fly fly away and hope Durkon doesn't follow.

But if he's a vampire lord (which there's evidence against in him requiring a protection from daylight spell), they're notoriously difficult to kill. They make the lich template look terrible by comparison, and we all know how hard they are to kill for good.

hamishspence

2013-02-27, 05:14 PM

I assume the artists get full disclosure ahead of time that their "muse" is going to drink their blood? And they make sure to keep the artist alive?

I would think so- with the proviso that after the muse leaves, the artist's lifespan seems to have been significantly shortened.

Still, I could see an artist accepting the bargain with their eyes open- live fast, die young, leave a legend behind.

The Troubadour

2013-02-27, 05:14 PM

Awesomer and awesomer!

Nymrod

2013-02-27, 05:14 PM

I assume the artists get full disclosure ahead of time that their "muse" is going to drink their blood? And they make sure to keep the artist alive? Because otherwise it doesn't sound too different from some of the arrangements Lady Kazandra has with members of the Kargatane...

I think vampire muses actually exist in folklore as fey. Ain't the leanan sidhe exactly that?

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 05:15 PM

As for the fact that their diet is enforced on them and have no way of avoiding it, I don't consider that reasons for a moral gray ground. If I needed a liver and there was no transplant around but I knew a guy who had a match, killing him and taking his liver would never be considered anything but evil, even if I had no other way to survive. That is exactly what the majority of undead do on a daily basis. Intelligent once are doubly damned. They could seek at least seek destruction.

Let me clarify: Vampires sometimes ask permission before they sire Vampire Spawn, but that's the exception. Ghouls, Shadows, etc, just create spawn from unwilling victims, who then repeat the cycle.

Let me repeat for emphasis: Vampires eat people. Every night. That is Evil.

Gnoman

2013-02-27, 05:15 PM

The fact that Malak has such a high potential for escape should he be defeated makes this scene ripe with character development potential. Durkon winning here would set up another nemesis dynamic should Malak take things personally or Durkon set out to finish the job, which would greatly increase the complexities of Durkon's character.

zimmerwald1915

2013-02-27, 05:15 PM

It takes a vast amount of willpower to actively seek out your own demise. I really do wish 'not doing your best to die' would stop being declared evil so readily.
There are two objections to be made. First, someone like Malack has a vast amount of will power by definition. Second, that in a world with a verifiable afterlife, demise in the mortal realm is not demise as such, but simply a transition to another state of being. Dying might hurt, but it is not the end.

Trixie

2013-02-27, 05:15 PM

May I take the time to remind people that Heal is exactly as dangerous as Harm and that Clerics get a good Will save (as well as high Wisdom), so it's a bit early to be declaring anybody dead?

Not only this, Xykon was smart enough to think of getting anti-positive energy ring, so why a cleric wouldn't think of the same? It should be obvious and priority #1 for Malack, especially if he only ever wanted to heal his allies...

Sensing switch in first frame of next comic :<

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 05:17 PM

I would think so- with the proviso that after the muse leaves, the artist's lifespan seems to have been significantly shortened.

Still, I could see an artist accepting the bargain with their eyes open- live fast, die young, leave a legend behind.

Blech. The artist would be better off becoming a Fey Pact Warlock in that case; they might be able to become a Feylord and live forever in the Eladrin Kingdoms. (Epic Destiny from Arcane Power.)

hamishspence

2013-02-27, 05:17 PM

I think vampire muses actually exist in folklore as fey. Ain't the leanan sidhe exactly that?

The Open Grave one is fey in some sense- looks like an eladrin.

Probably where they got the idea from.

zimmerwald1915

2013-02-27, 05:18 PM

Not only this, Xykon was smart enough to think of getting anti-positive energy ring, so why a cleric wouldn't think of the same? It should be obvious and priority #1 for Malack, especially if he only ever wanted to heal his allies...
Malack's "aargh" seems to indicate that he felt pain at having heal cast upon him, though he does not seem to be sporting any new wounds. I guess the jury's still out on whether he actually took damage or not.

Adeptus

2013-02-27, 05:18 PM

Oh man, 75-150 damage to a character with no con modifier. Barring Gaseous Form, Malack is in some serious trouble here.
d12 hit die though... but between that and the lightning he has to be really hurting now.

Deepbluediver

2013-02-27, 05:19 PM

Not only this, Xykon was smart enough to think of getting anti-positive energy ring, so why a cleric wouldn't think of the same? It should be obvious and priority #1 for Malack, especially if he only ever wanted to heal his allies...

Sensing switch in first frame of next comic :<

I dunno, that "ARRRRGHHGH!" seems pretty definitive. :smallconfused:

Edit: Swordsaged AGAIN! Dammit! Must. Learn. To Type. Faster.

gorocz

2013-02-27, 05:19 PM

Actually the way I read it is that if one saves for half damage, Harm cannot reduce you below 1 hit point.

Otherwise, (if you fail the save) it looks like Harm is totally capable of killing someone.

I read the srd on Harm twice today. First time having it seen used in the comics (it's always nice to refresh yourself on the rules) and then after seeing your post. After the first time, I thought it's to 1hp even when not saved (and I'm guessing others did too, possibly because it used to take all but 1d4 hp if you didn't save before 3.5e). Only after reading your post, I realised that the senteces are split and the one with the 1hp rule is the one where target saves.

And not a single save was thrown that day!:smalltongue:
Well, Durkon saved against the Poison spell... Even with his racial resistance bonus, there was a decent chance he wouldn't make it (DC about 19? fort. save 9+2+1?). (In hindsight, I'm not sure if that wasn't meant as a joke, I presumed you meant that nobody saved against anything and after looking up all these numbers I don't feel like deleting them... :smalltongue:)

Raineh Daze

2013-02-27, 05:20 PM

Essex

2013-02-27, 05:22 PM

Failed monster knowledge check. I mean it appears pretty clear that there aren't a TON of dwarves living in the overland. It's quite possible that Malak has not had a ton of contact with them.

It's interesting to see characters mess up something that a player never would because you can't help but metagame even if you try to avoid it.
Well, from an in game perspective, knowing things about Dwarves is Knowledge (Local) while knowing things about Undead is Knowledge (Religion). Clerics normally have the second as a class skill, but not the first. Since Knowledge skills are also Intelligence based, and Intelligence isn't a priority for Clerics, it is entirely understandable that Malak doesn't know offhand that Durkon has a bonus to his saves versus poison.

Regarding the course of the fight, I'm legitimately worried about a last minute turn-around. Remember the Oracle's prediction that Durkon would return home "posthumously." I'd always feared that this meant Xykon would kill him and bring him back as a zombie, but turning him into a vampire would be even worse. Malak's respect for Durkon and desire for a new family also gives him a strong motive to turn him.

Sir_Leorik

2013-02-27, 05:23 PM

It takes a vast amount of willpower to actively seek out your own demise. I really do wish 'not doing your best to die' would stop being declared evil so readily.

That is what Erasmus van Richten chose to do: rather than exist as a Vampire slave of Baron Metis, forced to drink human blood and obey the Baron's perverse whims (Erasmus was barely 14 when the gypsies kidnapped him) Erasmus snuck out of the Baron's manor, found his father (Dr. van Richten had been searching for his son with the magical aid of Azalin Rex, king of Darkon) and begged his father to slay him. The father and son hugged till just before morning, when Dr. van Richten staked his son and saw his body burn up in the sunlight.

Baron Metis decided that since the good doctor had taken away his paramour he would repay the doctor in kind: he murdered Dr. van Richten's wife. The whole affair set Dr. Rudolph van Richten to become the greatest hero the Ravenloft campaign ever knew. All because his son Erasmus would not murder people to continue his own existence.

ti'esar

2013-02-27, 05:23 PM

It's a bit jerkish, as a DM, to decide that a racial bonus that has been present since character creation should be met with overturning rules, thereby nullifying part of the reason to pick that race in the first place. :smallannoyed:

I have to agree. There's a big difference between "not requiring your story to follow the consensus beliefs of metagamers" and "suddenly changing known and established rules on your PCs". One is telling an entertaining story, the other is a fairly extreme form of railroading.

Barsoom

2013-02-27, 05:25 PM

Well, from an in game perspective, knowing things about Dwarves is Knowledge (Local) while knowing things about Undead is Knowledge (Religion). Clerics normally have the second as a class skill, but not the first. Since Knowledge skills are also Intelligence based, and Intelligence isn't a priority for Clerics, it is entirely understandable that Malak doesn't know offhand that Durkon has a bonus to his saves versus poison.
And since he doesn't have Knowledge (Nature) as a class skill, he also wouldn't know that Bears live in caves and fight with their claws. The D&D skill system is weird :smalleek:

zimmerwald1915

2013-02-27, 05:26 PM

Remaining a vampire, I can understand as an objection. Not seeking out your immediate destruction? Um, unless there's a 13th level cleric and 5,000GP of diamonds on hand, you're probably better off not turning into a pile of ash so immediately.

Just because there's an afterlife, doesn't mean that you should be so eager to get to it if there's anything important to focus on.
That's some deft goalpost moving, sirrah. You never mentioned any important things a just-sired vampire might need to get done. But really, most people, even in D&D worlds, don't have to concern themselves with saving the world. Most people give some weight to the fate of their soul, and refusing to murder people to prolong your own existence in the mortal realm strikes me as a fairly good way to not have it tortured for eternity. Conversely, accepting that you must murder people in order to [un]live strikes me as the kind of thing that gets you tortured for all eternity if someone does manage to end your existence in the mortal realm.