3.5: Rebuking Allips

[CardCaptor]

The Allip states that entering in contact with its mind causes a 1d4 wisdom drain (including mind controlling effects and telepathy). If a Cleric were to rebuke an Allip to command it, would she have to take the drain in the process? Would she need to take the drain every time she'd command it to perform an action? Would there be a point to commanding these creatures? I was thinking about making a minor baddie in my tabletop session to control a few of those, but it seems inconvenient at best.

[Draz74]

I don't think rebuking is mind control in any way, shape, or form, as far as the game rules are concerned.

[ArcturusV]

Seems as written it would end up draining the clerics Wisdom anytime they commanded it, since they are all mental commands. Though the process of getting them under control is Divinely Mandated and not "mental" so the original turning/rebuking wouldn't do it.

One has to wonder if it necessary MUST be a "Mental Command", or if the Cleric could just speak to them. Probably the only reason they don't allow that is Action Economy reasons, "Mental Command" is somehow a standard action, but Talking is a Free Action, after all. It's weird.

[killem2]

It doesn't state this is a mind effecting ability, therefore will not cause a drain.

I really get annoyed when a line isn't present, and people just assume there should have been a rule there and start making stuff up. Rules are concrete (out side of DM intervention). Take them as they are and move on.



One has to wonder if it necessary MUST be a "Mental Command", or if the Cleric could just speak to them. Probably the only reason they don't allow that is Action Economy reasons, "Mental Command" is somehow a standard action, but Talking is a Free Action, after all. It's weird.



One doesn't have to wonder, and it isn't wierd. It's a supernatural ability driven through divine intervention.

[Rascan]

It doesn't state this is a mind effecting ability, therefore will not cause a drain.

Well you're right that it won't cause Wisdom drain. It will cause Wisdom damage. Allow me to explain using my limited reasoning skills, as well as citing the SRD.

An Allip's Madness special attack (The Bold is my emphasis, not the rules,):
"Anyone targeting an allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage."

Excerpt from the Command ability that an Evil (or Neutral,) Cleric can use:
"A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead."

I would understand your thinking if there were a PHB spell called "Mind Control", but there isn't. So it's not a specific spell name the Allip's special attack is referring to. So then it's either a spell descriptor (like mind-affecting,) OR it is referring to a generic type of ability. There is no 'Mind Control' spell descriptor in the PHB.
Lastly, the description for the 'protection from' spells also mentions this mysterious 'mind control' in the brief spell list description:
"Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders."
....And when we actually read one of those spells it instead says:
"This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures."
[EDIT: The spell continues "If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature."]

mental control = mind control and it references abilities/powers/class features/what-have-you that allow you to mentally affect another creature, separate of whether or not the aforementioned power has the [mind-affecting] descriptor.
What else could it be if it isn't a spell descriptor, condition, spell name, or class feature/abilty name?

[Amphetryon]

Well you're right that it won't cause Wisdom drain. It will cause Wisdom damage. Allow me to explain using my limited reasoning skills, as well as citing the SRD.

An Allip's Madness special attack (The Bold is my emphasis, not the rules,):
"Anyone targeting an allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage."

Excerpt from the Command ability that an Evil (or Neutral,) Cleric can use:
"A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead."

I would understand your thinking if there were a PHB spell called "Mind Control", but there isn't. So it's not a specific spell name the Allip's special attack is referring to. So then it's either a spell descriptor (like mind-affecting,) OR it is referring to a generic type of ability. There is no 'Mind Control' spell descriptor in the PHB.
Lastly, the description for the 'protection from' spells also mentions this mysterious 'mind control' in the brief spell list description:
"Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders."
....And when we actually read one of those spells it instead says:
"This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures."
mental control = mind control and it references abilities/powers/class features/what-have-you that allow you to mentally affect another creature, separate of whether or not the aforementioned power has the [mind-affecting] descriptor.
What else could it be if it isn't a spell descriptor, condition, spell name, or class feature/abilty name?Where within the text are Mind Control and Mental Control considered equivalent from a crunch perspective? I ask because, to my understanding, they'd need to spell out the equivalency in order for your reading to be correct by RAW.

[Rascan]

Where within the text are Mind Control and Mental Control considered equivalent from a crunch perspective? I ask because, to my understanding, they'd need to spell out the equivalency in order for your reading to be correct by RAW.

That's fair. Nowhere does it explicitly state that mind control and mental control are the same thing. It simply mentions mind control in those spells' spell list description and instead mentions mental control in the actual spells.
I think its a very strong assumption to understand that those two things are mere choices of descriptive language to explain the same situation. In any case - if that is an incorrect assumption, then what on earth is this 'mind control'?
The Allip has to be punishing something with it's scathing wisdom damage. mind control means something.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.