Why Poison?

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Why would Malack use Poison in the duel with Durkon knowing he's a cleric (Fort save) and a dwarf (racial bonus)? :smallsigh:

[SowZ]

Why would Malack use Poison in the duel with Durkon knowing he's a cleric (Fort save) and a dwarf (racial bonus)? :smallsigh:

He probably didn't prepare many spells that would be effective against Durkon since he had no intention of fighting Durkon.

[oppyu]

"Ha! Guess ye should have spent less time studyin' an' more time adventurin'!"

[ThePhantasm]

Here you go.


Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

He probably didn't prepare many spells that would be effective against Durkon since he had no intention of fighting Durkon.

Yes, but he knew he was going on adventure... is poison and flame strike the only combat spells he prepared? unlikely...

[Roland Itiative]

Because it provided the opportunity for interesting banter, and a reason for Malack to go into Durkon's touch range. No more reasons are needed.

[Rorrik]

Yes, but he knew he was going on adventure... is poison and flame strike the only combat spells he prepared? unlikely...

I agree that plot is the only explanation we need. But would also like to add that the Death Ward renders useless many of the spells Malack might have prepared for combat.

[SowZ]

Yes, but he knew he was going on adventure... is poison and flame strike the only combat spells he prepared? unlikely...

OOTS members that Malack intended to fight-

A horribly impulsive Ranger, a Fighter, a Bard, a Wizard, a Rogue, an idiotic Bard/Fighter-type...

Spells primarily targeting Will Save probably seemed a safe bet at the time. It is also possible Malack has something else up his sleeve and is still trying to hit Durkon with painful but not game ending spells to encourage Durkon to run away. I doubt it, but it is possible.

Basically, Malack is now restricted to spells that don't target Will saves AND aren't stopped by Death Ward against a foe he had no plan on fighting. He won't have many win buttons against Durkon.

[The Giant]

Pick one:

Story Reason: There are no dwarves on the Western Continent. Malack just didn't know.

Game Reason: Everyone remembers that Durkon has to make a Knowledge (Religion) check to know things about vampires. No one remembers that Malack has to make a Knowledge (Local) check to know things about dwarves. And that said check is not a class skill.

Comic Reason: I needed Malack to cast a touch spell so that he would be in range of Heal, but one that wasn't blocked by Death Ward (because Malack knew enough not to waste them). This was what I came up with, because it made for a good bit of levity in the middle of the action.

[Barsoom]

Yes, but he knew he was going on adventure... is poison and flame strike the only combat spells he prepared? unlikely...

As an Evil Cleric, he can spontaneously cast Inflict spells, so every spell slot is potentially a combat spell; I would guess that because of that, Malak doesn't feel he needs to specificially prepare combat spells. (problem is, Durkon's Mass Death Ward makes negative energy damage useless; if Malak doesn't have any spells that deal non-negative-energy damage, he's toast)

[SowZ]

Pick one:

Story Reason: There are no dwarves on the Western Continent. Malack just didn't know.

Game Reason: Everyone remembers that Durkon has to make a Knowledge (Religion) check to know things about vampires. No one remembers that Malack has to make a Knowledge (Local) check to know things about dwarves. And that said check is not a class skill.

Comic Reason: I needed Malack to cast a touch spell so that he would be in range of Heal, but one that wasn't blocked by Death Ward (because Malack knew enough not to waste them). This was what I came up with, because it made for a good bit of levity in the middle of the action.

It's also kind of a way to make minor things about the characters stand out, isn't it? If Durkon was never hit by poison during the comic, that aspect of his character/race wouldn't be plot relevant. Just like Haley's Evasion wouldn't matter if spells targeting Reflex didn't come her way every now and then.

[ThePhantasm]

This stuff only becomes a plothole if you wrongly assume that characters are flawless or omniscient. I prefer that not being the case. I don't want to read a comic with a bunch of perfect Gary Stus fighting each other.

[Starbuck_II]

Only core spell I could see is in core is Bestow Curse, still unlikely to work due to Clerics have good Will saves.

Although, the effect would be stronger perhaps had he succeeded.

[The Giant]

It's also kind of a way to make minor things about the characters stand out, isn't it? If Durkon was never hit by poison during the comic, that aspect of his character/race wouldn't be plot relevant. Just like Haley's Evasion wouldn't matter if spells targeting Reflex didn't come her way every now and then.

This is also true, though it did not factor into this particular decision.

[kxm]

It's a battle, the characters don't have time to think everything out like we do.

[AutomatedTeller]

Malack made a mistake, that's all. People, even incredibly powerful people, make mistakes. Vampires make mistakes.

He was, perhaps, overconfident, thinking that he was a lot more powerful. And, perhaps, he got suckered in by Durkon's 3rd level spell, thinking it would be an easy kill.

Durkon, however, has spent a lot more time fighting things as strong or stronger than he is.

Good fight, I thought. And an interesting counterpoint to Malack's casting Harm on Nale.

[sims796]

I'm glad that the Giant puts thought into his comic. It's slightly annoying whenever people debuff any question with "it was the plot". If it doesn't make sense story-wise, then saying "it's the plot, that's why", without any sort of follow-up doesn't make what happened sensible.

However, that the author puts thought into this means that it's always more than just "because that's the way it is". I appreciate that from him. There's more than just "he won that fight because the story says he does". If that's the case, well, it's a lot less exciting. I like to feel like this fight is happening, and that it makes sense for it to end or happen the way it did. Personally, no real complaints.

[Caex]

It is established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) that Malack has some ignorance about the peculiarities of dwarves.

[Dr.Epic]

Because it provided the opportunity for interesting banter, and a reason for Malack to go into Durkon's touch range. No more reasons are needed.

So because the plot says it happens. That's always a valid excuse, right Mr. Lucas?

[Snails]

Poison also sounds very ominous.

A battle that actually made complete sense from the POV of super savvy players would make for a lousy webcomic. It would be confusing for all but a small portion of the potential audience, and the drama would often disappoint.

The classic cleric offensive choices would be: Blade Barrier, Flamestrike, Harm, Slay Living, Poison, and sundry summon spells. I could very easily believe that with the Death Ward up, Malack has his two Flamestrikes for the day and then almost nothing.

Malack may or may not have a Blade Barrier, and even if he did he might prefer to save that spell to achieve greater effect in a battle against the entire Order.

[sims796]

I've been meaning to ask, is Poison that powerful?

[Kish]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm Exactly this powerful.

[ThePhantasm]

Malack may or may not have a Blade Barrier, and even if he did he might prefer to save that spell to achieve greater effect in a battle against the entire Order.

Of course he has it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html). Though it might not have been prepared today or he might not be willing to use it right now.

[Incom]

*reads SRD*

Poison is interesting; wouldn't the Con damage help expedite the draining of blood since that also manifests as Con damage?

[sims796]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm Exactly this powerful.

Ah, thanks.

[Shale]

Of course he has it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html). Though it might not have been prepared today or he might not be willing to use it right now.

Clerics "know" all cleric spells they can possibly cast. The only question is which ones they chose to memorize that morning.

[KillianHawkeye]

Poison is actually a pretty good choice of spell for taking out a single target. Dealing Con damage will massively weaken somebody even if it doesn't kill them. Of course, that's all providing that the target doesn't have a secret resilience to poisons (and spells, don't forget).



As for Blade Barrier, it's not as handy against a single opponent than it is against a group (or as a means of blocking an escape route, as we've previously seen). He wouldn't use it against Durkon even if he did prepare one today unless it was is last option.

[ThePhantasm]

Clerics "know" all cleric spells they can possibly cast. The only question is which ones they chose to memorize that morning.

I know, but I wasn't sure if the person I was responding to knew. That's why I brought up that comic.

[ReaderAt2046]

Poison is actually a pretty good choice of spell for taking out a single target. Dealing Con damage will massively weaken somebody even if it doesn't kill them. Of course, that's all providing that the target doesn't have a secret resilience to poisons (and spells, don't forget).



As for Blade Barrier, it's not as handy against a single opponent than it is against a group (or as a means of blocking an escape route, as we've previously seen). He wouldn't use it against Durkon even if he did prepare one today unless it was is last option.

Though if he cast Blade Barrier between him and Durkon, that could really help, since he could fast-heal and wait out the Mass Death Ward or let Durkon chip off a buch of HP charging through.

[Mantine]

Because it provided the opportunity for interesting banter, and a reason for Malack to go into Durkon's touch range. No more reasons are needed.

There are, but in this case they may be let pass.

[Saidoro]

Also keep in mind that unlike Durkon, Malack has to actually prepare healing spells if he wants to heal his partymates and not just himself. That can severely constrain spell selection.(Yes, I know, wand of CLW. That's a bit higher-OP a tactic than would be typical to OotS.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Also keep in mind that unlike Durkon, Malack has to actually prepare healing spells if he wants to heal his partymates and not just himself. That can severely constrain spell selection.(Yes, I know, wand of CLW. That's a bit higher-OP a tactic than would be typical to OotS.)

Really? Nale got a wand of Enervation, and that's a 4th level spell!

[Stormlock]

As for Blade Barrier, it's not as handy against a single opponent than it is against a group (or as a means of blocking an escape route, as we've previously seen). He wouldn't use it against Durkon even if he did prepare one today unless it was is last option.

He might have burnt it to spontaneously cast Harm on Belkar. Memorizing Harm (or any inflict spell) makes little sense as a negative energy cleric, at any rate.

At any rate, the most effective thing Malack could likely do is sit around healing himself until Durkon runs out of spells. He's certainly not going to be taken out by that hammer, and even if he had fewer spells, he's going to make a lot of saving throws with his stats and level, and his healing from fast heal and negative energy spells has no such problem. But that'd make for a very boring and long fight.

[KillianHawkeye]

He might have burnt it to spontaneously cast Harm on Belkar. Memorizing Harm (or any inflict spell) makes little sense as a negative energy cleric, at any rate.

Actually, Heal and Harm are not options for spontaneous casting. Only Cure [x] Wounds and Inflict [x] Wounds, and their Mass versions.

[Stormlock]

Huh, I always assumed they were, since they're the obvious highest level versions of those spells. He never actually used Harm on Belkar anyways though, I was getting confused with everyone referencing Nale I guess.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well I guess the Giant could be houseruling that for all we know. It does sorta make sense like you said.

[Icedaemon]

Actually, Heal and Harm are not options for spontaneous casting. Only Cure [x] Wounds and Inflict [x] Wounds, and their Mass versions.

All the more reason to assume that (mid-)high-level clerics have spell slots dedicated to Harm and Heal spells.

[KillianHawkeye]

All the more reason to assume that (mid-)high-level clerics have spell slots dedicated to Harm and Heal spells.

I agree. In particular, I took note that Durkon may soon be out of Heal spells if he continues using them offensively.

[SlashDash]

Pick one:
Game Reason: Everyone remembers that Durkon has to make a Knowledge (Religion) check to know things about vampires. No one remembers that Malack has to make a Knowledge (Local) check to know things about dwarves. And that said check is not a class skill.

I'd pick this option as it was clearly stated that not all monsters know pc races stats before #529 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html)

But regardless, I also have to ponder why no one object to poison being used in a cleric fight before #456 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

Sure he wasn't a dwarf, but people need to remember that dwarves only get a +2 against poison and another +2 against spells ... That's just 20%. Not that much of a stretch. Also Malak clearly tends towards necromancy (death god and all...) and Durkon has death ward and we don't know how many spells did Malak waste on the various traps in the pyramid. We know that some of them at least has summon monsters as triggers.

I'm all for nitpicking, but I don't see why people make such a fuss about this particular one.

[Finagle]

Why would Malack use Poison in the duel with Durkon knowing he's a cleric (Fort save) and a dwarf (racial bonus)? :smallsigh:
You should start your own webcomic. One where the characters are munchkin powergamers. That would be great, since it appears that's what you'd like to see.

[Killer Angel]

Why would Malack use Poison in the duel with Durkon knowing he's a cleric (Fort save) and a dwarf (racial bonus)? :smallsigh:

For the exact same reason I saw players trying to cast spells with a For save agains dragons.

[Winter]

Actually, the dwarven bonus of +2 is not that big. It just modifies the chance to succeed by 10%. Yes, that is something, but no game-killer to not-use that spell at all.

Poison is a very decent spell in the beginning of the fight. It can rob a lot of HPs that cannot get healed back in an instance and if the fight drags on for a minute, it can rob again a lot of HPs. Interestingly, you're losing more HPs the more HD the opponent has, so vs. a level 16 cleric like Durkon it is a pretty decent choice.
Losing twice 1d10 con in a fight is no laughing matter.

[SowZ]

You should start your own webcomic. One where the characters are munchkin powergamers. That would be great, since it appears that's what you'd like to see.

Well, there's always Knights of the Dinner Table.

[Snails]

I think that the mocking about needing to adventure more implies that Durkon recognizes Malack as being at least one casting level lower.

It suggests Malack may be Cleric12, give or take one level. I am guessing Malack is exactly 12th level though, with a 22 Wisdom.

What are his likely 6th level slots (3+1)? Greater Dispel Magic (cast), Blade Barrier, Harm, Quickened Inflict Moderate. One too many!

Plus a domain spell. Death = Create Undead. Law = Hold Monster. Magic = Antimagic Field.

We have seen no evidence of 7th level spells from Malack. If he has them, we are likely to see it now. The likely choices are Dictum, Destruction, Blasphemy.

For 5th level slots (4+1), we know Flamestrike (cast), Flamestrike (cast). We can guess Slay Living for the Domain spell. That leaves 2 more. Mass Cure Light Wounds would be a strong candidate, because the LG need healing in a fight.

For all Malack mocking of Durkon, his options are looking very thin too, especially against Death Ward. He is probably used to falling back on vampiric abilities.

[KillianHawkeye]

For all Malack mocking of Durkon, his options are looking very thin too, especially against Death Ward. He is probably used to falling back on vampiric abilities.

Just wanted to point out that he is also probably used to those abilities being a huge surprise to whoever he's fighting.

[warmachine]

Hubris. Malack, being undead, has immunity to poison and CON damage as an edge over enemies, so he uses it to feel superior and remind enemies of his powers. He doesn't seem the person that maintains contingency plans for everyone he meets in case he has to murder them, so he didn't analyze his default strategy for Durkon.

[Emmit Svenson]

What are his likely 6th level slots (3+1)? Greater Dispel Magic (cast), Blade Barrier, Harm, Quickened Inflict Moderate. One too many!

Plus a domain spell. Death = Create Undead. Law = Hold Monster. Magic = Antimagic Field.

Harm is the 6th level spell in the Destruction domain, solving the riddle nicely.

[Snails]

Just wanted to point out that he is also probably used to those abilities being a huge surprise to whoever he's fighting.

Yep, being skilled at hiding his "condition", he can charge in without a single buff spell and be a surprisingly effective meleeist.

Durkon in a one-on-one duel happens to be the worst possible target for his default tactics.

[Stormlock]

Well, we haven't seen him shapeshift yet. I'd love to see him turn into a giant constrictor snake instead of a dire wolf and do battle with a giant Durkon.

[quasit]

Actually, the dwarven bonus of +2 is not that big. It just modifies the chance to succeed by 10%. Yes, that is something, but no game-killer to not-use that spell at all.

Poison is a very decent spell in the beginning of the fight. It can rob a lot of HPs that cannot get healed back in an instance and if the fight drags on for a minute, it can rob again a lot of HPs. Interestingly, you're losing more HPs the more HD the opponent has, so vs. a level 16 cleric like Durkon it is a pretty decent choice.
Losing twice 1d10 con in a fight is no laughing matter.

Also, Malack is devote to a death god. Death domain grants one-use supernatural ability to instant kill a living creature if rolling 1d6 per caster level exceeds the target's remaining HP, no save allowed. Any spell that has the slightest chance of drastically burning down HPs is no a waste of time and resources imho.

Edit: Requires a sucessfull touch attack and the ~11d6 M's caster level aren't so scary... But it's still an option.

[Maraxus1]

So let us speculate on the next few rounds:
"Harm on self"
"Heal"
"Harm"
"Heal"
"Arg, Inflice serious wounds"
"I get you, Cure serious wounds"
"Inflict serious wounds"
"Cure Serious wounds"
"I can do that all day, Inflict..."
"Bwaha, finally a natural 20 on that goddam will save, Halfing ranger barbarian full attack!!!!"


I mean, sure, Belkar multiclassed two bad will classes and has a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings but hold person grand one save each round, he's got to shake it off at some point. ;)

As for Malak, he should use his Dominate person ability every single round (unless his Cha is really, really far below Wisdom). Unless of course Durcon has cast Protection from evil within the last few minutes....

[Giggling Ghast]

Remind me, why didn't Greater Dispel Magic work on Durkon?

[Stormlock]

I don't see why people keep pinning Belkar as being able to take out Malack. DR and natural armor is going to make him look like Scruffy in the combat department.

Nice to see Malack making some more intelligent plays. Though Harm seems a bit overkill as a healing option considering Durkon is running dry and he can fast heal anyways.

Another odd thing to note is that he cast Harm while on the ceiling, which shouldn't be possible (he should need hands to spider climb.) However, assuming he's able to do that with any spells, this gives him a huge advantage overall.

Lastly, while I'd considered the possibility of V showing up and acing Durkon thanks to IFF interference, I hadn't thought of the fact that his Wis isn't exactly stellar and he could easily get Dominated, even if he does get Will as a primary save. Though I suppose a circumstance modifier could work either way on that given his current mental state of Crazy, Seriously.


So let us speculate on the next few rounds:
"Harm on self"
"Heal"
"Harm"
"Heal"
"Arg, Inflice serious wounds"
"I get you, Cure serious wounds"
"Inflict serious wounds"
"Cure Serious wounds"
"I can do that all day, Inflict..."
"Bwaha, finally a natural 20 on that goddam will save, Halfing ranger barbarian full attack!!!!"

If you want to talk about will saves, Malack should be making most of his, his Wis must be way above Durkon's between Vampiric, Racial, and Age related bonuses. And if he's making saving throws on those cure spells, he can inflict with much lower versions recoup, especially with fast heal 5 in the mix and the potential for Durkon to miss a touch attack.

[Winter]

Remind me, why didn't Greater Dispel Magic work on Durkon?

I think that wants to tell us Malack's caster level is too low to overcome Durkon's. Saving throws and Caster Level Checks seem to work binary in OotS (for enhanced drama of the story and denser fights), you're either more powerful than the other or are not.

[Ellye]

Poison was a fine gambit, actually, given that his options were limited anyway.
The chances of it working were smaller than Malack calculated, but still, if it worked (small chances doesn't mean that it would be impossible, after all), it would be really helpful for that battle.
Specially if Malack was already planning to go on a battle of attrition - he could wait it out for Poison to take full effect.

Right now his best bet might be to stall until Death Ward ends.