Charge and Spring attack

[Yogibear41]

Is it possible to use Spring attack with a charge? and if you can would that allow you to move a maximum of double your speed total?

[Glimbur]

Nope. Charge is a full round action, and is distinct from Spring Attack.

You might enjoy the simple Q&A (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261338) thread for questions like this, though there's nothing wrong with making a new thread. Sometimes the conversation goes interesting places beyond just yes/no.

[Yogibear41]

I've had questions like this before that result in several different opinions so I generally just make a thread just in case.

[Elric VIII]

Speaking of "more interesting than yes and no..."

You could get a similar effect with Travel Devotion. It lets you move your speed as a swift action for 1 min once/day. So, you can basically do that for the entire combat if you choose. You can gain additional uses by taking the feat again (take it 3 times instead of the Spring Attack tree) or by spending 2 Turn/Rebuke attempts. This feat is found in the Complete Champion pg 62.

[Yogibear41]

Since it is a swift action does that mean it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity?

[Crake]

Since it is a swift action does that mean it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity?

No, any movement that moves you out of a threatened square will provoke, although it should be noted that you can only provoke like that once per action. So if the charge provokes due to the enemy having reach, then you use travel devotion, you will provoke again. Being a swift action has nothing to do with it.

Spring attack has the added benefit of not provoking via movement vs the creature you're attacking.

[gallagher]

why take spring attack when you can take elusive target? instead of worrying about attacks of opportunity, incur them and trip the guy trying to hit you

[ericgrau]

I've had questions like this before that result in several different opinions so I generally just make a thread just in case.

Ok then. The spring attack feat refers specifically to the attack action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack). This is a specific action found in the combat section of the rules (see link). It is distinct from other actions, including charging. It is not the same thing as attacking in general.

[Yogibear41]

Thanks all I think I will most likely try to take both travel devotion and the spring attack chain for the combat style im going for. Need sooo many feats lol.

[Ithandor]

What you want here, probably, is the Diamond Mind maneuver Bounding Assault, from Tome of Battle.

[Darrin]

Thanks all I think I will most likely try to take both travel devotion and the spring attack chain for the combat style im going for. Need sooo many feats lol.

Why? If you have Travel Devotion, you don't need Spring Attack:

1) Swift action, move 30'.
2) Standard action, one attack.
3) Move action, move back 30'.

I guess what I'm asking is, what sort of combat style are you trying to accomplish with Spring Attack?

[ericgrau]

The odd thing about a wording with spring attack is that while it specifies the specific action for the attack, it doesn't for the movement. You could presumably spring attack with travel devotion movement, then use your move action for something else. Not sure what, but extra actions are special enough that it could be worth finding something to do with it.

One trick I could think of would be to use spring attack to get the ability to move any amount before and after the attack, rather than being forced to do half and half. Then you can end up much farther away to hit hard and then go out of reach.

[Yogibear41]

Why? If you have Travel Devotion, you don't need Spring Attack:

1) Swift action, move 30'.
2) Standard action, one attack.
3) Move action, move back 30'.

I guess what I'm asking is, what sort of combat style are you trying to accomplish with Spring Attack?

They get an aoo against you from step 3, im trying to fight in such a way that i can move in and out without being attacked back

[ericgrau]

The mobility feat and a good base AC already handles a lot of that. With +5 AC (including dodge) your chances of getting hit are very low. Overcomes reach too, which is pretty important when you're relying on a strat like this. Shocktrooper ruins that tactic though. Or you can tumble too. If you need heavy armor, dwarves may tumble in heavy armor.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A tumble check DC 25 will let you move half your speed through enemies without provoking, and it is incredible easy to pump skill checks, I have a level 3 character which can do this checks 25 % of the time.

Moving past an enemy is only DC 15 so my character can do it on a 4 or higher.

[Greenish]

What you want here, probably, is the Diamond Mind maneuver Bounding Assault, from Tome of Battle.Not really, since it just removes the straight line requirement from charge.

[ericgrau]

It doesn't solve his main problem, but being able to make crazy paths all over the battlefield may help his overall goal.

[Yogibear41]

The mobility feat and a good base AC already handles a lot of that. With +5 AC (including dodge) your chances of getting hit are very low. Overcomes reach too, which is pretty important when you're relying on a strat like this. Shocktrooper ruins that tactic though. Or you can tumble too. If you need heavy armor, dwarves may tumble in heavy armor.

If im not going for spring attack I won't have dodge or mobility. Also im playing in a campaing were magic items are relatively rare, in addition to this particular character being basically solo for the time being with no ways to detect magic(left about 60k worth of magic items once becuase I had no idea what it was DM had to be nice and tell me lol), he is also a Werewolf Lord so when he changes hes goes from medium to large thereby destroying in armor he has on. I currently have an AC of 19 at level 6 ECL 9 im using the werewolf lord savage progression class with 4/6 levels taken and I have 2 levels of barbarian. After I take my last two werewolf levels im mostly likely going to either go into scout for skirmish damage or possibly take a 2 level dip into warrior for some free feats first. My plan is to stay in wolf form where I only have bite but get a free trip and try to use hit and run tactics, his current speed is 50x5 with run feat, I can get it up to 70x5 with 12 levels in scout. I had planned on making a thread for advice on this particular build once I had a few questions answered to get an idea on what feats I should start with. Unfortunanetly I just came up with this idea and of the feats I already have I have none of the prerequisites for this spring attack build and I'm not sure if my DM will let me retrain any of them.

A tumble Check of 25 would allow me to move away at full speed without provoking so that could potentially be very helpful. (15 for half speed+10 to check to move full speed) Be pretty funny seing a large dire wolf trying to tumble though lol.

[ericgrau]

Without magic items you won't get a high enough AC to make that work. So that leaves tumble. If tumble isn't a class skill, you only need to dip 1 level of a class that has it then blow all your skill points on it. Whether you have 1 level of rogue (or other class with tumble) or 10 levels of rogue, your max ranks is the same. The only thing that changes is how many points you spend on a rank, which is why you get as many of the ranks as possible during the dip, then after that you simply pay 2 points per rank. It's worth it for tumble.

[Curmudgeon]

The odd thing about a wording with spring attack is that while it specifies the specific action for the attack, it doesn't for the movement.
It does if you read the stealth erratum provided in the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5 (and also, so I've been told, in the brand new 3.5 PH printing):

SPRING ATTACK

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. And a note about the "attack action": that term is used, but never actually defined, in several places in the game. Generally speaking, the phrase could mean any of the following:

a standard action attack
a full attack action (the only choice which uses the exact term)
a bonus attack, such as afforded by Improved Trip
an attack of opportunity
In the case of Spring Attack the first option is the one that always fits. However, if you can supply an extra move action (such as through one charge from a Belt of Battle), the second option will also fit.

[Greenish]

Without magic items you won't get a high enough AC to make that work. So that leaves tumble. If tumble isn't a class skill, you only need to dip 1 level of a class that has it then blow all your skill points on it. Whether you have 1 level of rogue (or other class with tumble) or 10 levels of rogue, your max ranks is the same. The only thing that changes is how many points you spend on a rank, which is why you get as many of the ranks as possible during the dip, then after that you simply pay 2 points per rank. It's worth it for tumble.There's also the Cityscape option (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) of swapping Ride to Tumble. Won't do much for the RHD, but many martial classes (including barbarian) come with Ride.

[Darrin]

They get an aoo against you from step 3, im trying to fight in such a way that i can move in and out without being attacked back

Tumble Check DC 15 negates the AoO, moving at half-speed. Around ECL 7ish (18 Dex) you make this check even when you roll a "1". When you can reliably hit a DC 25, you can tumble at full speed.

So... I forget from your other post how you're doing the trip. You want to do something like:

1) Move in.
2) Bite.
3) Trip.
4) Bite.
5) Move back.

[Yogibear41]

Tumble Check DC 15 negates the AoO, moving at half-speed. Around ECL 7ish (18 Dex) you make this check even when you roll a "1". When you can reliably hit a DC 25, you can tumble at full speed.

So... I forget from your other post how you're doing the trip. You want to do something like:

1) Move in.
2) Bite.
3) Trip.
4) Bite.
5) Move back.

Where are you getting the 2nd bite from? Does the Improved trip feat allow you to get a free trip attack with a natural attack you have already used? and in this case the trip attempt won't be from the actual trip action but a free attempt from successfully hitting with a bite, I wasn't aware this feat worked that way.


lol now I need an absurd amount of feats

[ericgrau]

Dip cleric for travel domain, get travel devotion. That + tumble = done?

[Yogibear41]

Dip cleric for travel domain, get travel devotion. That + tumble = done?


Would Travel/Pride Domain be better or Celerity/Pride if im only taking a 1 level dip.


Pride seems really good for me seeing as this is a solo character if I ever roll a 1 on an important fort save im basically dead.

[Curmudgeon]

Pride is an excellent choice if you're boosting your saving throws to the point that failure will be mostly on rolled 1s. Of those other two, the extra daily uses of Travel Devotion from your undead turn attempts make Travel a superior choice to Celerity. +10' speed is good, but not nearly as good as +30' (or more if your speed is greater) every round of combat.

[Darrin]

Where are you getting the 2nd bite from? Does the Improved trip feat allow you to get a free trip attack with a natural attack you have already used? and in this case the trip attempt won't be from the actual trip action but a free attempt from successfully hitting with a bite, I wasn't aware this feat worked that way.


Sorry, I got confused about Bounding Assault, which you asked about in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273476).

Knock-Down (from the Divine section of the SRD) might work, if you can reliably do 10 points of damage on your bite attack. However, some DMs do not allow Knock-Down to trigger the free follow-up attack from Improved Trip.

[soveliss24]

Where are you getting the 2nd bite from? Does the Improved trip feat allow you to get a free trip attack with a natural attack you have already used? and in this case the trip attempt won't be from the actual trip action but a free attempt from successfully hitting with a bite, I wasn't aware this feat worked that way.


"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt." Doesn't matter whether the trip comes from the feat. Although I think the feat's benefits all apply to the werewolf free trip ability anyway...

[ericgrau]

"as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt"
So if you didn't use your attack for your trip attempt then, wait, you didn't use your attack for the trip attempt. You got it for free. You are left with the same attacks you had before you made the trip.

Alternatively you could claim you get back the free improved grab trip attack as if you hadn't used it... which then must be a trip attempt against the foe you hit, which has no effect since he is already prone.

I have seen that trick mentioned before, where you illegally bite=(improved grab)=>trip=(improved trip)=>attack. But the proper way to do it is instead to trip=(improved trip)=>bite=(improved grab)=>trip. And since the trip must succeed to get to the bite and since all 3 must be against the same foe, the second trip has no effect. Well unless the foe can stand up as an immediate action in the middle of someone else's attacks, but that's a bit rare I think.

And if you're going to read the rules wrong why not just bite=>trip=>bite=>trip=>bite=>trip=>etc. and claim infinite loop?

Not that approach, bite, trip, retreat isn't a good tactic. Every time it works the foe can't even attack you in melee that round because he needs 2 or more move actions just to reach you.

[Yogibear41]

Pride is an excellent choice if you're boosting your saving throws to the point that failure will be mostly on rolled 1s. Of those other two, the extra daily uses of Travel Devotion from your undead turn attempts make Travel a superior choice to Celerity. +10' speed is good, but not nearly as good as +30' (or more if your speed is greater) every round of combat.

I was under the impression that you could take domain feats without actually having that domain. Just went and reread the rules in complete champion and they're a little sketchy on the details saying that if you do take a certain domain feat it should be somewhat in line with any other domain feats you take.

But then it has more infor for Clerics that says you can choose any domain corresponding to the list of domains offered by your choosen deity.
What if I picked up the travel domain but then became a cleric?

Currently in the campaing I play in our DM uses his own gods anyway and doesn't have a this god=this domain list anyway, but I'm sure he would shoot down anything obviously dumb like a good god with an evil domain or such.

[Yogibear41]

Sorry, I got confused about Bounding Assault, which you asked about in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273476).


Jury is still out on whether that works or not if anyone feels like having a look at that too feel free lol :smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

I was under the impression that you could take domain feats without actually having that domain.
Yes, you can. However, you're limited to 2 that way, and you need to burn general feats for them. Clerics get the limit raised to 3 by converting at least 1 domain to the corresponding feat (and could hit that limit purely by domain conversion if they're Cloistered Clerics); and domain conversion guarantees that your domain feats "fit thematically".

Anyway, the biggest benefit of the Travel domain is the ability to convert it to Travel Devotion. That feat's benefits have already been extolled in this thread, so my domain recommendations took that into account.

[Ithandor]

Not really, since it just removes the straight line requirement from charge.

Ah, my apologies - I had inferred from that ability that it allowed move-attack-move (as seems to be strongly implied by the fluff). However, yes, it would seem the second sentence would have to include "after your first move" - otherwise it would be selective reading at best.

[Alzun]

Ah, my apologies - I had inferred from that ability that it allowed move-attack-move (as seems to be strongly implied by the fluff). However, yes, it would seem the second sentence would have to include "after your first move" - otherwise it would be selective reading at best.

It almost reads as if it does mean move-attack-move. If it doesn't...well... what the DM doesn't know won't hurt him :smallredface:

[Person_Man]

You may wish to check out the Vanguard homebrew class in my signature. It's basically built around the premise of using Spring Attack the way people want it to function, instead of the way it actually does function.