The current main-plot is boring

[Winter]

I'm going to voice this controversial opinion but it has wandered around in my head for a while and now finally forms into something I can express.
The current main-plot is not interesting me a lot and I'll list the reasons in ascending order, from "slightly bad" to "it simply does not work".

Don't get me wrong: I still like the comic and I still enjoy how some characters unfold. I want to see how Durkon and Malack and Belkar tussle it out and all the other things are cool as well.
I like in general what is going on, but the main story of the current arc simply has no *zoom*, it's bland. And here are my reasons:

1. The Linear Guild isn't A-Material
They were bland and cliche when they first appeared and are now in their 3rd or 4th iteration. Yes, we know Nale is a pompous, ineffective Bard. Now we learned he is just the ineffective version of his father. A character that is a mirror image of another character (Nale, Tarquin) can only carry himself so far and surely not as main-antagonist over 800 strips (and continuing... 2 years? by now).
The problem is I have with this that even the characters know it. The author knows it. The characters comment on how lame a second round with Thog would be and it even does not have a "big mystery" to reveal as we already knew who the fake Thog was.
Sabine has a nice subplot on her, but in all honesty: She is pretty, pretty much a cliché character as well. I could like her subplot with "a succubus is in love, now what?" if she was not attached to one of the most bland and pointless characters in the entire strip (Nale). The setup is interesting but without any consequence as I do not care about Nale's emotional state and what goes around with it. I do not want to see if Sabine's feelings lead somewhere, I only think Nale has to leave the comic (death).
I find it puzzling how an author can be that aware his setup is weak (as it was done already several times and in-comic commented on)... and still do it.

Ok, this hung on me disliking the LG and Nale. Let us move to deeper issues.

2. The Three-Sided-Race
We're seeing a three-way race to the McGuffin. In principle, that is a setup that offers a lot of drama. Just not in the current arc, because Rich failed to set up the stakes and something the parties do achieve when they arrive first.
If you set up a race (for real in sports or in fiction) you need to set up the parties, the stakes, and what happens if the good guys win or what happens if the bad guys lose.
This has not happened. If Team Evil wins, nothing happens for now. They have to cast their ritual first and we do not know if that is a problem. We do not know how long it will take. All we know is that if they arrive, the race is not over, the other parties are still in the game.
If the Order arrives first, then... nothing changes. They want to set up some lame defense and still have to face their epic foe. They do not press the "disarm" button, they do not gain a tactical advantage over Tarquin or Xykon that would add "drama", that would make the reader "feel" Xykon must not succeed and that the Order must win. If the Order arrives first, they set up a campsite, call some things... and wait. Wuhh? Why race in the first place?
If Tarquin wins (I think we all agree he has more influence on what is going on with the LG)... then... well... Tarquin has no real clue on the gates, he just knows he wants them because they are there. He could achieve that much better with sending an army to put up camp in the desert. As far as we know (and that is all that matters in regard to the "knowing the stakes to create drama"), he has nothing he can do with the gate at all. He's not even a caster. Maybe Sabine being at the gate causes something "bad", but we were not told that. Tarquin is only in it not because it is THE McGuffin, but because it is SOME McGuffin to him.
And as above nothing immediately changes if Tarquin wins. There's nothing happening that would kick the Order as well as Team Evil out of their fight, they would just arrive when they arrive.
The race Tarquin told the Order about ("If we fail, Tarquin will raise an army!") is more interesting that this setup as it has clear stakes. It is known what must not happen and what the consequence would be when the Evil Team wins.

Furthermore, the location of the race is boring. Even worse, we have not yet even seen all parties arrive. The LG is outside, Team Evil is somewhere, and the Order is inside not really racing but Dungeon Crawling their way through an empty dungeon. Yes, the dungeon has some traps and whatnot, but it is static content that we know is no real threat to anyone, especially not to Haley with lots of time (there's no sense of drama in the race, see above) and meatshields and healers to shield her from whatever is summoned.
While the Order is in there, we do not know what the other parties in this "race" are doing. Team Evil is unknown to us and the LG is "Somewhere in the desert". Does that sound like the finale of an olympic sprint? Not really. More like a practice session you're holding alone.

3. The Stakes in General
This has bothered me for a long, long time. The comic was about preventing the world from getting destroyed by a being of pure chaos. We had a super-powerful caster who wanted to release just that being.
Even back then this dramatic plot wasn't under as much pressure as it could have been, as we already knew Xykon would not let the Snarl lose. He'd not even be in control of the gates. The Dark One was the one in control and in all serious, we did see he was a reasonable guy who, in some way, has been wronged. The Snarl in his hands, and that is what we all believed would happen, might be uncomfortable to some gods and some humans who might have to relocate from a good city to make space for goblins, but it's far from "The Snarl in the Hands of Xykon" or "The Snarl eats everyone".
But Rich took that away as well. We, the readers, saw there's no Snarl in the Rift. We do not know what it is, but we saw it's apparently not something that eats Xykon or Blackwing and whatever comes close to the rift. The rifts, actually, seem to be pretty harmless, as they do not eat Gobbotopia/Azure City. No surprise if there's a planet in there.
Again, the point is not if Rich knows there's still some danger, that is yet to be revealed. The point is that it can only be as dramatic as we think the stakes are and honestly, a peaceful planet inside a rift isn't that dramatic. What if Xykon succeeds? Then the Dark One can steer around a rift to other planes of existence and... nothing happens.

Imagine you live in a house that is about to collapse but you do not know that. There is something that is dramatic, but as you do not know it is dramatic, it is not. What matters is your believe what might or could or would happen. The main story has taken all our believes what "bad" could happen. This goes that far that the Big Bad is constantly undermined in "who bad it would be" if he won. Xykon, as powerful and horrible as he is as creature, wasn't the big threat in the first place (due to Redcloak's lie to him), the Plan got the teeth pulled (Snarl -> mostly harmless planet), and there are also eggs laid in the basket his Super Creature might actually make its own choices before the end.

To be blunt: Me/us having to trust the author to re-add drama and higher stakes at some point later in the main story (years after taking it out!) is just, no offense to the author, who's doing a lot of things very well, bad writing. It's all about what we are told what the stakes are and right now, there are not any beyond the immediate consequences for the characters involved - which is well-written as always, but without a gripping main plot somewhat pointless.

[Finagle]

I think you're overthinking it and getting inside your own brain. Not much of this makes sense to me.

At least we're on the main plot. The Empire of Blood took ninety strips and over a year to get out of! After the first thirty or so I was impatient and restless and then the arena thing happened and it was obvious we weren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Killer Angel]

I don't agree, but I appreciate your effort. :smallwink:

The only part I agree with, for personal liking, is that I don't consider the Linear Guild as "A-Material". That's why we have Tarquin, as current real antagonist.

[Mike Havran]

I appreciate the effort you put into your statement but I have to disagree with it. I mean, if you consider the current plot boring, what about the entire DStP? No gate to find and/or use, the Order scattered and fighting minor antagonists.

To me, I like the way comic has slowly shifted from Roy vs Xykon battle. OK, there is Snarl, but is was just additional danger. Now, more Order members, particulary Elan, are getting into spotlight and getting into issues that have ultimately only little in common with the main goal. I like it that way, because I always preferred meatier character developement over swift story flow (I mean, if it's well-written, but that's certainly the case here).

About the Snarl thing...I think the Giant is known to play with the expectations of the audience long enough and I don't believe anything that is inside is harmless. IMO, the way the rift unravels and casts wierd colors on everything around is pretty creepy. One doesn't need the snarly paws around.

[SowZ]

I think you are underestimating Tarquin a little. If Tarquin gets to the gate first, I believe he will do something surprising and game changing. As for Team Evil vs. TOOTS, I look at it this way. If the Order gets there first they will have a tactical advantage. Not enough to stop Xykon. But maybe enough to slow him down so that they can destroy the gate if necessary. Should Team Evil arrive first, though, the defenses they could offer certainly could be enough to stop the Order. They won't underestimate the Order like they did the first time. If team evil wins the race, it is bad news.

The stakes could be a little higher, okay. But I expect they will ramp up in the climax at the final gate, and I expect them to ramp up more within this arc, too. Part of the problem here may be that the scale just doesn't seem to match the Azure City Gate scale. A second huge battle would be overdoing it, though, IMO. And this arc is focusing on the characters a little more than a massive action build-up. (Note: I love the battle for Azure City and reread it sometimes. Hopefully no one took it as derogatory on that arc.) This arc works fine, in my mind, even if it isn't at the same intensity level of the last Gate battle. I am kind of waiting for it to go full speed, though. It does seem to be missing something. And that something is probably Team Evil.

I'm not really huge on Nale either, honestly, but I'm okay with him being around when he helps us develop other characters, (Elan, usually, but now the Tarquin-Nale dynamic is worth watching.) He can be good for jokes, too. And this last arc has developed Nale some, too. I'm still not all that emotionally invested in him, but he interests me a little more now. If Tarquin wasn't really in charge, though, I would be pretty bored by the Linear Guild in this particular arc. Fortunately, Tarquin is in charge and I fully expect he already has a few plans we don't know about.

As for us not knowing about the Snarl or its threat, what helps balance that out in my mind is the IFCC. They seem to be in the know and have a lot of power. The fact that they are so interested and willing to put so much on the line to win the gates for themselves tells me that whatever IS behind the rifts is still a big frikkin deal. Worst case scenario is not, 'Dark One gets his plan to go off without a hitch.' That is far too simple. I don't know what it is, but I am sure there is a possibility that is far worse in the mix.

[Savil]

The first post has a real lot of "if"s, and judging things that haven't happened yet is not a good thing. Wait until the main plot will actually be fully revealed to criticize it.

Aside from that, this is a problem of readers' perception of any ongoing webcomic - even one page a day is a slow pace comparing to books or movies. That is why people have too much time to overthink about the plot. Reading the compilation is an entirely different experience, which may significantly change your perspective.

[Paseo H]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how any of this is constructive at all.

[Chantelune]

If the Order arrives first, then... nothing changes. They want to set up some lame defense and still have to face their epic foe. They do not press the "disarm" button, they do not gain a tactical advantage over Tarquin or Xykon that would add "drama", that would make the reader "feel" Xykon must not succeed and that the Order must win. If the Order arrives first, they set up a campsite, call some things... and wait. Wuhh? Why race in the first place?

Because when you know that one evil party is on the move and that a second, more powerful, one might start going there at any time, you don't sit on your thumb doing nothing. The earlier they reach the gate, the more time they will get to prepare themselves, set traps, eventually contact allies like Hinjo who will let them know that Xykon has left AC, etc... They'll get more time to think about the situation and prepare to cover most threats.

If they wait for the last moment to rush there, at best they'll have a couple hours/minutes to prepare themselves and will have to adapt on the fly. Not even speaking about the casters not having time to prepare their spells for the upcoming battle.

So the real question there would be : Why would they not race ?

[Priceguy]

Interesting post. I see most of your points; can't really say you're not broadly correct. My main quibble is with your conclusions from what Blackwing saw in the rift. You're claiming it's a harmless, peaceful planet and no Snarl, but that is not so. We know nothing of the planet; it's a huge mystery whose resolution I'm most curious about. Nothing says there's no Snarl. In fact, until your post I didn't entertain the notion that there was no Snarl at all.

There might not be, of course. There are several possibilities. The story we've heard may be an utter lie, but I think that would be too dramatically flaccid to be the case; we're too invested in the backstory. The Snarl may have gone through the same deal again, inside the world, and thus there is a new world in there, trapping the Snarl. Possibly containing another world and so forth. Or maybe the Snarl has changed over time and created something.

Of course, this doesn't invalidate any other point of yours. I just felt you had assumed too much at this moment in time. As for the rest, I find myself agreeing with you... and yet I look forward to each new strip with the fevered urgency of a junkie. Part of it is because very exciting things are happening right now with the Durkon-Malack fight, but mainly it is because of The Giant.

I think he is an absolutely brilliant storyteller. So when the story goes strange places I don't think "the drama has been killed", I think "what amazing things is The Giant going to pull on us now?". I might find the story boring if I didn't have such trust in him as a writer. That's why I don't agree with your final paragraph. He's never disappointed me so for me the drama is in looking forward to what we will get to see. I, for one, can't wait.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how any of this is constructive at all.

That's because the OP didn't have any suggestions for fixing the problems he sees. He's merely stating his dissatisfaction.

To a certain degree, I agree with him. Which is to say that I can't fully disagree with any of the points he raised. There certainly is a lack of pressure and drama considering how much more we the readers know about what is going on than any of the main characters do.

However, this story arc seems to be more about giving plot development to the OOTS's secondary characters. More time is being spent on issues of family and friendship which, while certainly important, are not parts of the main story. So it's not incorrect to say that the main plotline has been lacking recently. Our story's main villain has hardly had any appearances lately, and when he did it was really more as a function of character development for Redcloak. He was the only reason it switched the focus back to Gobbotopia. More could have been done to advance the main story there, but it cut back to the Western Continent as soon as Redcloak's personal bit was finished with.

Now personally, I am not one to criticize the Giant. I greatly appreciate the way he develops realistic characters and I am glad that this part of the story is being told. I long for the time when Xykon will return in all his villainous glory, but for now this story is still great and getting better the further we go. The story we are getting right now may not be as dramatic on a grand scale as what we've gotten in the past, but it is still filled with drama of a more personal nature. Now it's possible that the OP does not care so much about the minutae of these characters' lives, but I have grown quite attached to these characters over the last 5 years or so. So while I recognize that the OP has something of a point, all I can say is:

"Keep up the great work, Rich!"

[Snails]

I think you are both underestimating Tarquin and underestimating Roy.

It is entirely plausible for a party like the Order to defeat Xykon with preparation, good team work, and but a little luck. Xykon is an uneven tactician who makes many mistakes. Yes, Xykon's frivolity is partially a ruse; he is quite capable of great mental focus when he thinks it important. But at a perceptiveness and consistency level he is not that much better than Darth V. Xykon thinks that the Order is not worth thinking about, having squashed both Roy and Darth V in single combat. Xykon is not going to plan how to fight the Order. He is going to make errors.

What the Order can accomplish against the full Team Evil is a tougher one. Redcloak is formidable and learning quickly. But we do already know there are cracks in that alliance.

Tarquin is a careful planner with immense resources at his command. Whatever Roy can do Tarquin can probably do better. Tarquin's weakness is his family -- if he had only rallied his entire team for a few days, the Gate would already be captured. That will prove to be an error. But it is not an error because Tarquin is incapable of better; it is an error because it is in Tarquin's nature to overlook the potential danger of some kinds of threats.

I do, however, see your point about Nale. Basically, that there will be another showdown with Elan + Nale has been telegraphed. To the Giant's credit, what we are seeing now is actually a three-way Tarquin + Elan + Nale showdown. This has taken many strips to unfold because the Giant has been writing so much good stuff along the way. That cannot be a bad thing!

Another way to look at it is the Linear Guild is not important anymore because it is failing the Evolve Or Die test. All that is left is Sabine's arc to play out. Tarquin has seized the limelight of the LG, and now it is all about Tarquin vs. Elan. Nale is a pawn.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I didn't care for the beginning of this story arc, but as soon as the party got to the Empire of Blood it quickly turned into my favorite OotS arc ever.

[snikrept]

Comes down to personal taste, I guess.

For me, I'd rather read about enigmas and puzzles that must be revealed, alongside interesting characterization, than, say, the twists of nailbiter drama regarding a second-to-second race against The Inevitable World-Ending Doomsday Clock. That trope shows up way to much in fantasy literature for my taste.

What is the nature of the rift? seems a more interesting question to me than Who will control the rift first?, for example

[ti'esar]

It's all about what we are told what the stakes are and right now, there are not any beyond the immediate consequences for the characters involved - which is well-written as always, but without a gripping main plot somewhat pointless.

I disagree with this.

[Incom]

The first post has a real lot of "if"s, and judging things that haven't happened yet is not a good thing. Wait until the main plot will actually be fully revealed to criticize it.

Aside from that, this is a problem of readers' perception of any ongoing webcomic - even one page a day is a slow pace comparing to books or movies. That is why people have too much time to overthink about the plot. Reading the compilation is an entirely different experience, which may significantly change your perspective.

This, really. I'm the type who is practically hanging on every update, so slow pacing (at least in this comic) doesn't bother me at all.

[SavageWombat]

Has the OP gone back and re-read the strips in the archive?

Maybe the pacing will feel better in book format. Just a thought.

[AgentofHellfire]

I agree, on the whole, that the gripping, epic plotline of the Order of the Stick--the whole snarl conflict--is a rather important finale to have.


I think it's also important to note, though, that this comic has already gone on for 800 (almost 900) strips, and that's supposed to be "only halfway through". If there weren't unrelated subplots, I'd honestly be surprised.

And the Order is, if they get to the gate, in a much better position to destroy it, should Xykon show up. That could be important.

As for the issues you raise with the snarl...that it's not the void staring back when you look in doesn't necessarily mean the snarl isn't dangerous to the world of OOTS.

[KillianHawkeye]

Pacing is not even the issue here. Nobody is talking about pacing.

The issue is that the "Saving the World" drama has been replaced by "My Dysfunctional Family Who Incidentally I Also Need to Save the World From" drama. And the problem with that is that saving the world from Tarquin and company IS incedental to the main plot of stopping Xykon and Redcloak. It is because of this fact that Xykon and Redcloak have hardly made more than the one appearance in hundreds of strips.

Now, I like where this story arc is going as much as anybody. But denying that we've taken a detour into territory where a majority of the drama is caused by relatively unimportant side characters doesn't help anybody either.

As far as I'm concerned, the only things since the start of this book that have been parts of the main Xykon-Gate storyline were: searching the wrong part of the desert for Girard's gate, Redcloak's plotting and Xykon getting his (fake) phylactery back, getting to the Windy Canyon, and V finding out about killing the Draketooth clan.

All that other stuff about the Linear Guild, Haley's dad, Elan-Tarquin-Nale, Elan-Malack, and even Malack-Durkon; while all of them are great stories which I enjoyed reading, I can still recognize that they are all personal quests and side stories compared to the main overall plotline. Those are all great pieces of character development, but the OP's complaint is basically that the main plot has taken the proverbial back seat to character development. All of these things are important, but only insofar as they are important the the characters involved.

[Gift Jeraff]

I like the Linear Guild more than Team Evil.

Well, until they went all mainstream and recruited Tarquin.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Haven't bothered to read the rant; the subjective (or even objective) reasons Winter may have for thinking the main plot of the comic are likely valid to him. Me agreeing or disagreeing with those reasons is irrelevant to him.

I will say this, though: Winter, if you find the main plot boring, then hopefully you find other parts of the comic entertaining. The gag-a-page format, for example. Or the character development. Or the side plots. If none of that is entertaining, then the best thing you can do is stop reading. Rich cannot possibly please 100% of the population that tries to read his comic. If you don't like it, sorry for you, mate, but Rich need not cater to your likes and dislikes. In fact, I will argue that he shouldn't cater to your specific likes and dislikes. A writer creates things that please him, not anyone else. If he is lucky, and good at what he does, his likes will match those of his readership. But the moment an author tries to please everyone, that's when things usually go horribly wrong: that is why so many authors stay well away from their fandoms.

Now, usually the short answer is "well, you create a webcomic with an interesting main plot". It is a rather reactionary answer, but unfortunately, it is the only advice you can get. Not necessarily create your own, but if the main thing you look for in a web comic is an interesting main plot, and OotS isn't doing it for you, for better or for worse, the only recourse left for you is to find one that does fulfill your desire. If you go to the Webomics subforum, you can get a large number of recommendations.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Deepbluediver]

So if you don't like it or have gotten bored with it then don't read it. Or do what I do with some webcomics- only check back every couple of months and read a whole pile of updates at once.

And frankly, your complaints seem minor at best; I can boil most of them down to "we haven't reached a more satisfying conclusion, yet".

I said this yesterday in another thread after mentioning the bad webcomics wiki: there are comics that I don't like and others that never interested me in the first place, but none that I ever felt such an intense....dislike for, that I felt the need to rag on the author about it in public.

[Lecan]

Yes, we know Nale is a pompous, ineffective Bard.

He isn't a Bard. I know it's a minor issue, but it exemplifies why you have a problem with the story.




Sabine has a nice subplot on her, but in all honesty: She is pretty, pretty much a cliché character as well. I could like her subplot with "a succubus is in love, now what?"

That's hardly her most interesting subplot.


The setup is interesting but without any consequence as I do not care about Nale's emotional state and what goes around with it. I do not want to see if Sabine's feelings lead somewhere, I only think Nale has to leave the comic (death).

If you don't connect with the characters (which is fine), you aren't going to care about the story. Why then, do you post in the message board about it? I minored in English literature in college. The Giant is no hack writer. He is extremely adept at telling a story you don't care for but are unable to express the reasons why you do not.




If the Order arrives first, then... nothing changes. They want to set up some lame defense and still have to face their epic foe. They do not press the "disarm" button, they do not gain a tactical advantage over Tarquin or Xykon that would add "drama", that would make the reader "feel" Xykon must not succeed and that the Order must win.

What do you think a tactical advantage is if a chance to entrench and call allies in is not one? The nature of guarding is that it is passive until a threat is present.



3. The Stakes in General
This has bothered me for a long, long time. The comic was about preventing the world from getting destroyed by a being of pure chaos. We had a super-powerful caster who wanted to release just that being.


The point is that it can only be as dramatic as we think the stakes are and honestly, a peaceful planet inside a rift isn't that dramatic. What if Xykon succeeds? Then the Dark One can steer around a rift to other planes of existence and... nothing happens.
The X-Files had an excellent run and made a lot of money on a nebulous danger that may not have been anything at all. I think you may need to re-learn what you think you know about drama and what makes a successful story.

To summarize, while you certainly are entitled to your opinion, I really don't understand your points. I think this just may be the wrong type of story for you. Sure, it's wordy at times and sure a plot can drag on when the author is unable to create a new episode every day or week. These things don't mean the core nature is bad. There is drama, just the drama of the unknown instead of the drama of a cocked gun.

TL;DR: While I don't think you understand what's really going on, you're free to dislike something. I don't understand how you think this thread is going to change anything though.

[AgentofHellfire]

All that other stuff about the Linear Guild, Haley's dad, Elan-Tarquin-Nale, Elan-Malack, and even Malack-Durkon; while all of them are great stories which I enjoyed reading, I can still recognize that they are all personal quests and side stories compared to the main overall plotline. Those are all great pieces of character development, but the OP's complaint is basically that the main plot has taken the proverbial back seat to character development. All of these things are important, but only insofar as they are important the the characters involved.

And I acknowledged that the main plot was--for the moment.

The for the moment, to me, is important to note, as it's a long series and we do need and have time for some sort of filler. A "dramatic pause", almost, in the plot.

[Winter]

I think you are underestimating Tarquin a little. If Tarquin gets to the gate first, I believe he will do something surprising and game changing.

That's the thing: We do not know what the stakes are but we have to trust the author will do something cool or it would be uncool. That's "reasoning backwards", which is not how a story gets interesting.


The first post has a real lot of "if"s, and judging things that haven't happened yet is not a good thing. Wait until the main plot will actually be fully revealed to criticize it.

The thing is: in this specific format we are reading the story as it unfolds. It has to work as whole as well as "work in progress". It's part of this medium here. Apart from that, I also dislike books that aren't dramatic while they run but explain why it was dramatic on the last ten pages.


That is why people have too much time to overthink about the plot. Reading the compilation is an entirely different experience, which may significantly change your perspective.

This isn't about pacing.


I'm trying to wrap my head around how any of this is constructive at all.

It's not. If I think the comic is awesome, I will do so. And did it a lot in the past. When I think it does not work for me, I ponder it. The above post was the result of why I think I had the feeling the main plot does not work for me.
People also interpret and dissect Shakespeare's works and it's not like they can influence it in any constructive way as well.
In fact, I do not expect to influence anything and I even strongly hope I cannot.


Has the OP gone back and re-read the strips in the archive?

Several times. And I have read the books. Several times.


Maybe the pacing will feel better in book format. Just a thought.

This isn't about pacing.


If there weren't unrelated subplots, I'd honestly be surprised.

Subplots are good and fine. And most of them do work very well. My issue is the main plot does not work (for me).


As for the issues you raise with the snarl...that it's not the void staring back when you look in doesn't necessarily mean the snarl isn't dangerous to the world of OOTS.

As it currently stands, there is no Snarl.


The issue is that the "Saving the World" drama has been replaced by "My Dysfunctional Family Who Incidentally I Also Need to Save the World From" drama.

The issue is "Saving the World and Lots of Character Development and Sublots" got replaced with "Character Development and Subplots". There is no more Saving the World. The characters believe they still are doing that but for us it is clear that's not really an issue for now. All information we have points us to Xykon being less dangerous (for the world) than we thought and that there is in fact no Snarl.



All that other stuff about the Linear Guild, Haley's dad, Elan-Tarquin-Nale, Elan-Malack, and even Malack-Durkon; while all of them are great stories which I enjoyed reading, I can still recognize that they are all personal quests and side stories compared to the main overall plotline. Those are all great pieces of character development, but the OP's complaint is basically that the main plot has taken the proverbial back seat to character development. All of these things are important, but only insofar as they are important the the characters involved.

The subplots are the reason I still enjoy OotS. I do not care how many detours we take as long as the main plot stays "dramatic". It can take a backseat for a while (a long while) but if you pull all its teeth it might be a tad too far.


Haven't bothered to read the rant;

It's no rant. And I'm not bothering to read what you write below. (In fact, I bothered to read it, but I don't want to honor you with an extensive answer if my initial post is tl;dr).


Now, usually the short answer is "well, you create a webcomic with an interesting main plot".

No, it's a silly advice and three planets besides any point you could make.


If you go to the Webomics subforum, you can get a large number of recommendations.

Reading my post could have given you some insight in if I want to do that or not.


So if you don't like it or have gotten bored with it then don't read it.

Not the point. I like OotS or I would not have bothered to write something. The point is an epic work where the epic plot is shot down isn't running for the gold medal.


And frankly, your complaints seem minor at best; I can boil most of them down to "we haven't reached a more satisfying conclusion, yet".

Not the point. The conclusion of the story isn't the issue, but the motivation of it running.


I said this yesterday in another thread after mentioning the bad webcomics wiki: there are comics that I don't like and others that never interested me in the first place, but none that I ever felt such an intense....dislike for, that I felt the need to rag on the author about it in public.

You're wrong. I very much like OotS for many reasons people have dropped above. I share them all.


He isn't a Bard. I know it's a minor issue, but it exemplifies why you have a problem with the story.

A major point of Nale is that he tried to build a bard with other classes without being a bard. So yes, he is an ineffective bard (without being a bard). Elan (early) and Tarquin (late) very much commented on that.


If you don't connect with the characters (which is fine), you aren't going to care about the story.

Yes, that is the issue I raised with the LG. The thing is, I care about all other characters, but the mainplot is still bland, as there's (right now) nothing at stake that we know off.


Why then, do you post in the message board about it? I minored in English literature in college. The Giant is no hack writer. He is extremely adept at telling a story you don't care for but are unable to express the reasons why you do not.

Who said I don't care about the comic? And no one said he is a hack writer. I said I think he did very many things very well, but imo fudged the main story by taking the pressure out.
And I think I have been very able to express why I think the main story does not work for me.



The X-Files had an excellent run and made a lot of money on a nebulous danger that may not have been anything at all. I think you may need to re-learn what you think you know about drama and what makes a successful story.

Oh, please. Don't do this "I know better" from above. I'm not doing it and I feel offended if you try it.
The X-files worked awesome as long as the thread was nebolous and started to suck after season 5 when they tried to resolve it.


To summarize, while you certainly are entitled to your opinion, I really don't understand your points. I think this just may be the wrong type of story for you. Sure, it's wordy at times and sure a plot can drag on when the author is unable to create a new episode every day or week. These things don't mean the core nature is bad. There is drama, just the drama of the unknown instead of the drama of a cocked gun.

Not the point. The story is awesome. There's just nothing at stake when the pressure was left out by showing us there's no real threat coming from the rifts.
And the issue is there's no "drama of the unknown". It's very much known and proven right now that a massive, open rift just above a city does not eat the world. That contradicts everything we are told about the Snarl and we've even seen a reasonable explanation for it: There is no Snarl within the rifts. That is not "the mystery of the unknown", that is opening the wardrobe, switching the light on and showing the kid there's no monsters hidden in it.


TL;DR: While I don't think you understand what's really going on, you're free to dislike something.

I am sorry, but for someone who admits not to not really have understood it you were very judgemental and educating from above.


I don't understand how you think this thread is going to change anything though.

Why do you assume I want to change something? I do not think I can change something and I do not WANT to change something.
I want to talk about one of my favorite webcomics that does a lot right and is a source of great enjoyment. I want to talk about some points where I think it is totally odd or not working. I like discussing stuff.
I do not get where people get the idea I dislike the comic, want to change it, am angry or whatever.

But I know that anything but "THIS IS AWESOME" creates counter-pressure. I can live with that.

[Lecan]

And the issue is there's no "drama of the unknown". It's very much known and proven right now that a massive, open rift just above a city does not eat the world. That contradicts everything we are told about the Snarl and we've even seen a reasonable explanation for it: There is no Snarl within the rifts. That is not "the mystery of the unknown", that is opening the wardrobe, switching the light on and showing the kid there's no monsters hidden in it.


Except that what actually happened was we don't know if the monster is different from what we thought, if it moved from the closet and is now under the bed or if the real monster is the person who told us to be afraid of the closet. That's why I suspect this isn't the entertainment for you. It's not the cocked gun and you don't like it.



I am sorry, but for someone who admits not to not really have understood it you were very judgemental and educating from above.

I did not say I don't understand the comic. I did not say I don't understand your post. If you are unable to comprehend one sentence, my point about this potentially not being the webcomic for you stands.



Why do you assume I want to change something? I do not think I can change something and I do not WANT to change something.
I want to talk about one of my favorite webcomics that does a lot right and is a source of great enjoyment. I want to talk about some points where I think it is totally odd or not working. I like discussing stuff.
I do not get where people get the idea I dislike the comic, want to change it, am angry or whatever.

When you fundamentally don't understand the storyline, discussing the work becomes almost impossible.



But I know that anything but "THIS IS AWESOME" creates counter-pressure. I can live with that.

I think I argue with you on Facebook periodically.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's no rant. And I'm not bothering to read what you write below. (In fact, I bothered to read it, but I don't want to honor you with an extensive answer if my initial post is tl;dr).

It is a rant: it is a self-congratulatory subjective opinion post seemingly designed to raise heckles rather than to provide an avenue for thoughtful discussion.

I skipped your arguments not because I thought it was too long to read, but because of the Medical Test rule: "Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

I think that the main plot of OotS is gripping. I can see how people would disagree. You are not going to change my mind, regardless of what subjective arguments you use, and I am not going to change yours, regardless of how finely crafted my subjective counter-arguments are.

Thus, I can skip said arguments and try to get to the heart of the matter: why are you bothering to tell us this? To incense us? To make yourself feel better? To make you feel superior to Rich by pointing out what a terrible writer you think he is and how much better you would craft his story than he is doing?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt; now, I'm not so sure.

Grey Wolf

[Paseo H]

It is a rant: it is a self-congratulatory subjective opinion post seemingly designed to raise heckles rather than to provide an avenue for thoughtful discussion.

I skipped your arguments not because I thought it was too long to read, but because of the Medical Test rule: "Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

I think that the main plot of OotS is gripping. I can see how people would disagree. You are not going to change my mind, regardless of what subjective arguments you use, and I am not going to change yours, regardless of how finely crafted my subjective counter-arguments are.

Thus, I can skip said arguments and try to get to the heart of the matter: why are you bothering to tell us this? To incense us? To make yourself feel better? To make you feel superior to Rich by pointing out what a terrible writer you think he is and how much better you would craft his story than he is doing?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt; now, I'm not so sure.

Grey Wolf

I'd like to hear the answer to this as well.

[Doran]

I skipped your arguments not because I thought it was too long to read, but because of the Medical Test rule: "Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".



But why then explicitly state you didn't read part of his post? And then (presumably) expect him to read all of yours?

Sorry but I can't see how this move would do anything other than irritate the other person in the conversation. :smallconfused:

[Winter]

It is a rant: it is a self-congratulatory subjective opinion post seemingly designed to raise heckles rather than to provide an avenue for thoughtful discussion.

Thanks for the veiled accusation of trolling, btw.


"Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

I'm not getting what this comparison might mean in this context.


I think that the main plot of OotS is gripping. I can see how people would disagree. You are not going to change my mind, regardless of what subjective arguments you use, and I am not going to change yours, regardless of how finely crafted my subjective counter-arguments are.

And I think it could be gripping. If something was at stake. This way, I feel nothing when reading the main plot and I think it should not be this way.
Who said I want to change your mind? I listened into myself why I do not give a damn for the race to the gates while I enjoy the rest of the comic very much and this here is my answer. Of course it is subjective and we surely could discuss about all kind of things. We could for example find out if I'm not overvalued the lack of direction due to the lack of an actual threat we're seeing.
You might want to consider that there is no objective truth, so everything you believe, perceive or hold dear is subjective. Dismissing something because "it's subjective anyway" leaves very little in this world (including fictional ones) left to talk about.


Thus, I can skip said arguments and try to get to the heart of the matter: why are you bothering to tell us this? To incense us? To make yourself feel better? To make you feel superior to Rich by pointing out what a terrible writer you think he is and how much better you would craft his story than he is doing?

I am not sure if you bothered to read what I wrote above this time around. Your questions are all answered (and thanks for coming up with the troll-accusation again).
If I wanted to "incense you", which somehow means I'm not part of you, which is silly given I like the same comic and that is like the defining element of "us" around here, I'd surely have written something else.
I fail to see how I feel better now.
I fail to see where you get the idea I want to feel superior to the author or where I said he was a terrible writer in general (I even said the contrast) and I surely fail to see where I said I could do better (I do not even want to attempt this).
This is all stuff you read into it that wasn't there.


I gave you the benefit of the doubt; now, I'm not so sure.

No, you did not. You did not even read the first post as you admitted. On your second post, you openly accused me of trolling and asked a number of questions which clearly indicate you're already having a strong opinion.

To repeat it: I do like OotS and wrote what I wrote because I found something that I think that does not fit and that has bothered me for a long, long time. Sorry for bringing up a post that does not praise every piece of this comic to heavens, but it's part of my long-term reading-experience (since we saw what is behind the rifts). And I am really puzzled how Rich makes 4th wall jokes how lame another round with enemy X is - and then does it anyway. I'm not saying I'm better, I do not feel better now, I'm not trying to troll you, I'm not trying to troll Rich, but I am really not getting it. And this here is the place where I talk about OotS, and therefore, this thread is here.

[dps]

Now, I like where this story arc is going as much as anybody. But denying that we've taken a detour into territory where a majority of the drama is caused by relatively unimportant side characters doesn't help anybody either.


Almost everything that's happened since Azure City fell to the goblins can be viewed as "a detour into territory where a majority of the drama is caused by relatively unimportant side characters". The only direct conflict between TOotS and Team Evil since then was DarthV's attack on Xykon.

And that's the nature of the format we have here. When you have 2 or more different groups racing to the same objective, the drama is going to be provided by the things that sidetrack each of those groups on the way.

[Winter]

And that's the nature of the format we have here. When you have 2 or more different groups racing to the same objective, the drama is going to be provided by the things that sidetrack each of those groups on the way.

Good point.
My issue is not that we see sidetracks, but that the goal seems to be pointless to race to. Note: This is true from our (my) perspective, not from the character's perspective.
The characters do not know the things we know (apart from Vaarsuvius), therefore, they still think they have something to gain by being first. It feels like watching a race of several groups to a chest of gold but I already know there's only rotten chocolate in it. The race might be interesting but watching feels not as important as if I believed there was a switch to end the universe in the chest.

[ThePhantasm]

I disagree with all of your points, but I don't want to write up a huge wall of text in reply. So I'll just say this...

As for "boring," I can only say that I'm practically on the edge of my seat right now in this story arc. There's so much tension that's been amped up with the various death prophecies, V's pact with the IFCC, three teams converging on the gate, etc. that my head is spinning with suspense. The writing is superb, and the art is attractive (more and more eye candy, more colorful scenes, new perspectives).

You are welcome to your opinion, Winter, but I have to say I disagree and can't wait to see where this is going.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

From what I understand, the entirety of your problem is that you believe you know what the snarl is, or at least you don't think it's dangerous. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. Anyway, on the nature of the Snarl, that is your opinion, that is not a fact of the story. If you feel that hinting that the snarl is more complex than we imagined took the tension from the story, I disagree. I feel like it opened it up to some mystery I am waiting eagerly to be solved. Because no matter how much we think we know something about the story that hasn't happened yet, we don't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But why then explicitly state you didn't read part of his post? And then (presumably) expect him to read all of yours?

Because I am not trying to hide my intentions. By stating that I didn't read the first post arguments (I did read the intro and the conclusions of each paragraph), I was establishing that I was not participating in this thread to discuss that "The current main-plot is boring". I established from the get-go that I think such proposition is subjective and thus not subject to discussion. Instead, I was establishing that my interest in the thread was for the meta-discussion: why feel the need to post the OP in the first place.


I'm not getting what this comparison might mean in this context.

"Medical test" stands for "arguments". Is anything going to change if you manage to convince me that "The current main-plot is boring" or if you fail to convince me? No. Thus, I can skip the arguments.


You might want to consider that there is no objective truth, so everything you believe, perceive or hold dear is subjective.
Yeah, I disagree with this in the strongest possible terms.

But I suspect that your belief that "there is no objective truth" is why you and I can't seem to have a discussion that doesn't immediately turn into a shouting match.


If I wanted to "incense you", which somehow means I'm not part of you, which is silly given I like the same comic and that is like the defining element of "us" around here, I'd surely have written something else.
Or, alternative, I was using the common meaning of "us" that means "everyone here that isn't you". Since I was the fourth(?) poster showing signs of such in the thread, "us" was a perfectly fine word to use.


Sorry for bringing up a post that does not praise every piece of this comic to heavens
I wouldn't read such a post either. Both are devoid of use to me. But one such post would not endanger the presence of Rich in this forum, while yours does. Rich's rational response to posts such as yours has been to stop reading the forums which, unsurprisingly, is not a result I want.

But anyway, you have provided me with an answer. It is not an answer I can understand, and I doubt this thread will go anywhere but to a flamewar, but if what you wanted was air your feeling about the comic, then I stand by my description of "self-congratulatory subjective opinion post".

And yes, I was stating (veiled? no, quite openly) that this was borderline trolling. Inevitably, any discussion forum with rules against trolling will have some topics that are perilously close to the line. If I had thought you had crossed it, I wouldn't have answered: I would just have flagged your post and moved on, since feeding trolls is against the rules. But I remember you from the Malack is evil discussion, and I didn't think you were a troll. As I said, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You have convinced me that it wasn't your intention, so at this point I will withdraw.

Grey Wolf

[sam79]

I was not participating in this thread to discuss that "The current main-plot is boring". I established from the get-go that I think such proposition is subjective and thus not subject to discussion.

I don't understand why something subjective cannot be subject to discussion. Almost everything posted on these forums is subjective to a greater or lesser degree. You are right that, in such a situation, posters will not change one another's minds or opinions. But that doesn't render discussion pointless, still less impossible.

For example, I don't share all of the OP's views (I would characterise this arc as 'a slow-starter' rather than 'boring'), but his post did lead me to a thought that had never occured to me before; that the Snarl might not even exist. What's more, I doubt this thought would have occured to me on my own. it has made me think about certain scenes of the comic differently. I don't have to accept this view as correct in order to gain benefit from having heard it.

And for what its worth, nothing that the OP wrote in his first post, or since, would fall into my (subjective, of course) definition of trolling.

[ChristianSt]

Not the point. The story is awesome. There's just nothing at stake when the pressure was left out by showing us there's no real threat coming from the rifts.

Only because there is a world inside the rift, that doesn't mean it is no real threat. That doesn't mean that Redcloaks plan is invalid [The Dark One think it is valid, unless he trolls Redcloak] - and it still could mean the destruction of the world as it is (maybe if enough of the rift is open it will expand and explode the world as it is known). We don't know it (the Order does know even less than we). I think there is enough at stake.

Edit: typos

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't understand why something subjective cannot be subject to discussion.

You are right, I was speaking too broadly. Please excuse me. I should clarify: I, personally, don't participate in subjective discussions of this kind; I shouldn't have said that it cannot be discussed, only that I can't discuss it, because once I have established that "I'm fine that you think it is boring, but I disagree, I think it is gripping", that's the end of the discussion for me: there is nothing left for me to say.


And for what its worth, nothing that the OP wrote in his first post, or since, would fall into my (subjective, of course) definition of trolling.

I could see it escalating into a flamewar (I still think it might), so there was a chance it could have been. But even if Winter and I disagree on every topic we've ever crossed paths in, I couldn't imagine him being inflammatory: thus, why I posted. As I said, if I had been convinced that this was trolling, I wouldn't have posted in the first place.

GW

[Tragak]

This thread is boring.


:smallbiggrin:

[pjie2]

There's plenty of ways that world could be a threat. Say, for example, it's a world without magic, or a world without Gods. The Snarl's ultimate weapon, ready to destroy the current world and replace it with something else.

[Thrillhouse]

First of all, it is worth pointing out that the fact that there's a planet in the rift doesn't mean there's no threat. It's frankly a bit ridiculous to just leap to that conclusion as though it's established fact, and then say "Welp, there's no stakes now." This would require you to assume that A) this "world" poses no threat to anyone and B) none of the people seeking the gate know there's a world in it(The Dark One and IFCC in particular are unknowns on this one) So on that level you are not entirely grasping what's going on.

Furthermore, though, I think you need to realize that certain things are going on in this arc that, as far as I can tell, you find boring but others find massively interesting and exciting. You seem to mainly be interested in large scale plot events, and less interested in the actual characters. V's inner turmoil over what he/she/it did, Durkon and Malack's relationship, Elan's relationship with his father--as far as I can tell, you don't have much interest in these things, but the current plot arc is ALL about them. Your comment about Nale and Tarquin being basically the same guy also suggests that you aren't appreciating the complexity of these characters and are just seeing them as two villains sharing certain broad personality traits.

Point being: the current arc is boring TO YOU because it is currently doing certain things that you don't personally get much enjoyment from. Just as other readers could concievably be bored by more "plot heavy" arcs because no one's really communicating or growing.

[B. Dandelion]

W-ell... if you define "the main-plot" as the conflict between the OOTS and Team Evil for control of the Gates, you could perhaps argue to some sense of diminished threat here. The OP even fails to bring up what should be a major in that department: this is Gate #6 of 7. By definition, practically, both groups should be expected to come to a draw, because the real conflict can only be over gate #7 of 7, everybody's last chance and last stand, a fight the good guys must triumph in wholly and unambiguously because the baddie who's actually driving the Snarl plot will willingly take world destruction over personal failure. But a lead-up to a straight OOTS v TE fight now, after they've already had two major ones and we're one extraneous Gate and two full books before the finish, would just be setting up expectations for spinning wheels.

Though I don't get how this makes the entire conflict "boring". The seemingly inevitable draw has made me anticipate the conflict will go in the direction of the unexpected, and wildcards will play a key role. Their involvement may indeed redefine the outline of the final battle. Hence I have no issue with the involvement of the Linear Guild and the IFCC, whose abilities and motives aren't entirely known to us at this time, where OOTS v TE are comparatively known quantities. The LG/IFCC don't represent the specific threat Team Evil does, but the gates are for sure a Big Deal and messing with any of them has the potential to end the world. In a sense the LG or the IFCC coming into possession of one might be scarier than TE because of the fact that they may or may not know what they're doing, and who even knows what the IFCC wants with the Gates in the end. That they have a wildcard in Vaarsuvius that even Tarquin can't know about... seriously, the LG are scary not for themselves but because of who's been manipulating them, and if after Haerta you can't find those guys worrisome I dunno what to say.

I also have a very hard time accepting "the existence of Snarl-world has nullified the real threat of the Snarl". That... is a really really BIG leap to make. Honestly, because of Snarl-world, the Snarl is knocked toothless? Can't really get on board with that.

[goodyarn]

IMHO, the Giant's hiatus makes this subplot seem longer than it really is.

Anyway, I'm enjoying it.

[Kish]

#6 of 7.
I'd respond with just ?, if the board would let me.

[B. Dandelion]

I'd respond with just ?, if the board would let me.

For "6 of 7?" 'Cause you could argue the existence still of Kraagor's Gate means Girard's Gate is already doomed. Why have 7 Gates if you're only gonna see 6?

But I got the number of Gates wrong. Sorry.

[Kish]

Yes, that. I wouldn't have blinked if you'd said 4 of 5.

[Fish]

I once felt as Winter now does, when Roy was dead and the Order was squandering time on inconsequential side details. And they are side details: to date, there is no reason to suspect Celia's bout of adventuring, Vaarsuvius's magic research, Haley's leadership of the resistance, Roy's visit to Heaven, the marriage of two minor NPCs, or Therkla's unrequited love for Elan, had much weight on the overall must-defeat-Xykon plot. In the movie version, those bits would be cut.

Although I don't feel that way now, at least I comprehend why a reader might throw up his hands and say "Who cares?"

We know what is (or appears to be!) in the rift. Vaarsuvius knows. We do not know what it means. I can understand why a reader might say, "Why should I care about saving the world if it appears to be in no danger?" But we don't know that, not at all.

If Xykon reaches the Gate he will surely attempt the ritual to move the Rift wherever he pleases. What would that do? We thought we knew, but now we aren't sure.

You feel no tension because you presumed the nature of the Snarl/world/Gate. Are you so confident in your ability to predict this comic, confident you know what Rich will do next? Because if so, Rich has not bored you; you have bored yourself.

[DougTheHead]

Hmm... no.

[Amarsir]

A well-argued position.

I've always perceived OOTS as being a character-driven story, not a plot-driven one. The fact that the plot also has interesting turns is nice, but if the strip was only a means of conveying plot then it's already 400 strips too long for this narrative.

However, because the characters are distinct and deep (except Nale) we want to see them interact. That means we don't need a single driving objective. We need excuses to mix the characters up, and to throw new complex ones at them (like Malack or Tarquin).

So you're right that I also don't feel compelled to find out what happens with the gate. However, I wanted to see Malack vs Durkon, and how Belkar dies, and ultimately how Tarquin affects the Team Evil plans. All the gate means then is a catalyst for making that happen, and that's fine by me.

[Chantelune]

Remember that Redcloack has an agenda of its own : to gives control of the Snarl's prison to his god, who will then threaten the others deities in order to gain more privileges for the goblin's race.

In that regard, that the Snarl is still there or not is irrelevant as long as the gods have a blackout on it. The very idea of the god-killing abomination being on the loose would probably be enough for them to comply.

So far, nobody have any intention to release the Snarl. Xykon want to rule the world with it, yes, but the ritual won't let him, so even if they win, Xykon probably won't realise he was tricked until it's too late and once the Snarl is in control of the Dark One, he won't be able to do much.

So the threat is still there, Snarl or not, just not in the form some here seems to see it. And that, nobody but Redcloack (and us) knows it.

[Amarsir]

And they are side details: to date, there is no reason to suspect Celia's bout of adventuring, Vaarsuvius's magic research, Haley's leadership of the resistance, Roy's visit to Heaven, the marriage of two minor NPCs, or Therkla's unrequited love for Elan, had much weight on the overall must-defeat-Xykon plot. In the movie version, those bits would be cut.
That reminds me: Tsukiko always struck me as unnecessary. She wasn't essential to conquering the city and didn't live long enough to leave it. While Redcloak showed some character growth with her around, the real catalyst was O'Chul. She was a minor antagonist for Haley but generic goblins (or Redcloak for a real challenge) would have worked. And surely Xykon and RC could have defeated Darth V without her as well.

The only purpose I see was as a method for passing ritual exposition to an audience that hadn't read Start of Darkness. And for that it got the job done, but it seemed odd to introduce a seemingly-major character just to lay pipe.

[skim172]

I can appreciate your arguments, but generally, I don't agree with you. Where I think we do have common ground is that I also think the Linear Guild is kinda boring. And the current thread in focus, even if it does tie into the main plot, is still mainly about the Linear Guild/Tarquin/Malack, who, as antagonists, never satisfied me. I understand people really like Tarquin and Malack, but to me, the constant "I'm the evil, suave badass who's always in control" characterization of Tarq that gets continually reinforced is tiring and a little flat.

It does work to have a villain who's always in command and revealing secret ploys and plots and knowledge that frustrate the good guys - in a way, Xykon is kind of that villain as well. But if that villain is continually put into the spotlight, I feel that it starts to get ... expected. We expect by now that with every challenge, Tarq will emerge unscathed and cool. And what I get is a feeling of a lack of closure and repetitiveness. And Tarq just feels obnoxious and annoying.

Xykon works as the "evil badass" for several reasons. First, he doesn't dominate the spotlight - he's generally the evil villain scheming off-screen. Second, when the camera is on Xykon and Co, it's not solely about Xykon and the awesome things he's doing - there's a whole bunch of other things going on there with Xykon and Redcloak. Third, Xykon is kind of a goof. He often plays as the comic relief and the butt of the joke, whereas Tarquin is always the suave, unperturbed, James-Bond-and-martini badass. Lastly, Xykon is ultimately an unknown. There is, with him, a constant sense that he's up to something that his enemies, compatriots, and the audience have no clue about. He's not the "evil badass" that draws in the squealing fans with his charisma - he's the self-appointed evil badass that comes off as a complete psychopath.

Tarquin is designed to be the likable villain - the evil guy who's still charismatic and interesting. But unfortunately, beyond that ... I dunno, I kind of find him boring and obnoxious. I think if Tarq had left the spotlight right after the OOTS escaped the city, he might be more ominous - as it is, I'm not afraid of him, I'm just really annoyed at him.

Eh, but that's just me.

[ThePhantasm]

I used to feel the Linear Guild was boring (and made that critique about a year ago, though not in a thread devoted to a critique). But the Guild has recently been infused with well-written characters (Tarquin and Malack) plus Sabine is getting more of an interesting arc, and Thog has been cut out of the story for at least the time being (I think he's dead). So whereas I (and Belkar and some of the other characters, it seems) once found the LG to be a bit of a yawn they are much more of an interesting threat now.

[Ellye]

The only part of OotS that I really found boring was during the Kubota stuff. Thankfully, V felt the same as me!

[Math_Mage]

This isn't a thriller. It's an adventure. Any argument predicated on the notion that a 'good' story has a high-stakes main plot and doesn't get 'sidetracked' by character development is talking about the wrong genre.

Not that, y'know, revealing that something's going on in the Snarl has actually lessened the stakes, only added mystery.

[Excise]

While I don't agree with every point you (the OP) made, I do think your comments and reasons were well laid out.

[Seharvepernfan]

OP, I understand, but couldn't disagree any harder. Rich, your comic is wonderful and I cannot wait for each new strip to come out. It's priority #1 everyday when I get home from work.

[Fish]

Tsukiko served the purpose well: she could educate the reader about Xykon's and Redcloak's goals, where they would have no reason otherwise to explain them to each other (and thus to the reader). To settle the question, "Why don't they take Tsukiko with them?" she was imbued with enough arrogance and power to make herself a threat to Redcloak, and enough creepy personality that Xykon wasn't overly upset by her death.

Vaarsuvius's subplot had obvious purpose: his attack made possible the phylactery switch, as well as to tell V what the phylactery looked like.

Belkar's subplot about the Mark of Justice isn't fully played out, so I can't definitively say it was useless to the main plot. (Of course, I also cannot definitely say the same about ANY subplot I mentioned. Therkla may have been a roundabout way to make Elan learn a cure spell.)

Thus, it's hard to say for certain "this subplot has no relevance." Rich is a sly one.

[Rakoa]

I read through most of the posts here, and I don't really have anything to add to the arguments. I disagree with you, Winter, in most of your points, but that isn't my point. I want to congratulate you, and thank you, for voicing an opinion that may well (and I believe, has) brought dislike. Whether it is in line or contrary to my own beliefs and opinions, I would think that different points of view should always be expressed, and in doing so with yours you have at the very least given people something to think about it, whether or not they agree with you.

So good job on that, my friend.

And on the matter of trolling; if you can lay our your arguments in a well-spoken matter without using offensive language, whether or not your arguments are agreed with, how can you be considered a troll?

[jere7my]

Winter, I respect your opinions — I like what's been going down, but not everything is going to work for every reader. But I wonder about your central complaint: that we no longer know what the stakes are in the main, Snarl-based plot.

That sounds odd coming from someone who's clearly a huge Song of Ice and Fire fan. We're five books in to that series, and we still really have no idea what the ultimate stakes are in the conflict between "Ice" and "Fire." We know there are two sides (maybe); we know one has wights and things and the other has dragons and fire swords. But we don't know what will happen if either one "wins" (if that's even possible); we don't know who's going to be on which side, apart from a few obvious characters like Melisandre. After thousands of pages, we don't really know what the main conflict is.

...Which is cool. It clearly works, at least for me; I like ambiguity and subtle clues and chains of implication. But that's what we have here, too; we know something weird is going on with the Snarl, because it has a planet inside it, but we don't know what the ultimate conflict is. Will the Snarl destroy the world, and replace it with the one it has in reserve? Is that world populated by Death Slaadi and nycadaemons that will overrun the OotS world if the Snarl is released? Is the Snarl actually not harmful at all, and releasing it would mean releasing a benign sister world? We don't know...which is cool. It clearly works, at least for me.

Again, I don't want to dismiss your review, since it was well-thought-out and fundamentally an issue of personal preference. But this apparent discrepancy struck me as odd.

[SaintRidley]

It seems as if a large component of the issue lies in the fact that we readers know (or think we know) more than the characters (barring V and Blackwing) do. Am I right about that? We (think we) know that nothing dangerous is going on with the rifts, that Xykon and Redcloak's plan has no possibility of working due to the threat they each hope to have over the world having no real power behind it.

And because of this, you think there's no tension, nowhere for the story to really go without pulling something from its ass.

Am I at all right?

See, there's a convention called dramatic irony, where the audience knows what the characters don't. And the tension suddenly does not lie in the reader finding out what happens, but in the character finding out. This may not work for you, but it's a pretty long-running convention in storytelling. I'm not really sure what else to say.

[Psyren]

I'm on the edge of my seat. Will Belkar die here? Will Durkon die here? Will both be turned? Will Malack die before seeing Tarquin again? Where are Roy and Haley? Where is V? Will the team have any resources left at all when this is through, and what will happen when Team Evil shows up?

How anyone could be bored right now is beyond me. There's a Gate literally around the corner, and the only folks strong enough to keep the bad guys from taking it - minus whatever epic defenses the paranoid fool Girard cooked up - are busy burning up all their resources against each other. It's high times :smallsmile:

[Paseo H]

I disagree both with his opinion and in principle.

I, for one, love the Tarquin and co. stuff. I'm hoping against hope that more of his friends show up soon (especially the catfolk chick, but knowing Giant she may end up doing something that makes the "light show" look like a sunday regatta).

But even if I did agree with his point...

There was no reason to post this here, by his own admission. And even if he had a reason, I would likely disagree with it, because it seems to amount to "I love the comic but your writing sucks," which is really a rude way of putting anything.

[Holy_Knight]

I disagree with most of what you've said, Winter, but I'm going to focus on two specific areas because I think they're the most fruitful for discussion (especially the second one). So:


Nale:

I actually think introducing Tarquin has breathed new life into Nale. A while back, someone suggested that many of Nale's traits make a lot more sense in light of being raised by a man like Tarquin. Basically, the idea was that Nale spent most of his life trying to earn the approval of/impress/outthink his father, who was always not just one step ahead of him, but playing the game on a whole different scale. So you get someone who, say, starts as a fighter (like Dad?), and when he's clearly unable to match his Dad's level of thinking, tries to supplement his abilities with more and more varied sources, and comes up with more and more convoluted plans in a vain attempt to do something his father can't anticipate practically as soon as Nale's come up with it. The result is someone whose operating procedure is defined by what looks like being needlessly complicated, because nothing he ever did was ever complicated enough to match wits with his father.

I find that relationship quite interesting, and find Nale more intriguing as a result, especially now that he's been brought back into direct contact/conflict with his father again. He's even a somewhat more sympathetic character because of it (despite still being despicable overall, of course). From that angle, I'm curious about where Nale's story could go, and hope to see more of his interactions with Tarquin.



Sense of Drama:


And the issue is there's no "drama of the unknown". It's very much known and proven right now that a massive, open rift just above a city does not eat the world. That contradicts everything we are told about the Snarl and we've even seen a reasonable explanation for it: There is no Snarl within the rifts. That is not "the mystery of the unknown", that is opening the wardrobe, switching the light on and showing the kid there's no monsters hidden in it.
To be honest, I don't really see where you're coming from on this one. Specifically, while it's true that the threat of the Snarl and the rifts (apparently) aren't the same as what we'd been led to believe, that generates more drama of the unknown, not less. Some characters seem to genuinely believe the story we heard in the first place, and a few have started noticing discrepancies between it and what has now been observed. That raises qustions of whether the rifts might represent a different threat altogether, whether some characters have intentionally deceived others (and what their motives might be), whether the nature of the threat could have changed (to something potentially worse?), whether the wrong person finding out the truth could generate an entirely new crisis, and so on. To use your phrase, both we and the characters thought we knew what the stakes are, but now it's clear that even the stakes themselves are uncertain. I find that exciting--and I really don't see how we or the characters involved would be justified in thinking that being less certain of what's going on means there must not be as much at stake. If anything, that just raises the potential for what we don't know to cause huge problems for any number of the competing sides involved in the conflict.

On a related note:

Imagine you live in a house that is about to collapse but you do not know that. There is something that is dramatic, but as you do not know it is dramatic, it is not. What matters is your believe what might or could or would happen.
This seems inconsistent with the rest of what you were saying. The characters are operating under certain beliefs about the rifts, and as you say, that generates drama in the story. The potential to find out they were (perhaps even VERY) wrong about those beliefs just increases the possibility for disaster down the line, and even makes it possible that all of their efforts are actually working against their intended goals! This is true not only of the heroes, but the villains as well--even Redcloak. Keeping all that in mind, I think that your charge of diminshed drama is ill-considered, and that the stakes may well be higher than ever.

--HK

[ti'esar]

In relation to the "Sense of Drama" part, I think it's also worth noting that not knowing exactly what will happen if Team Evil manages to execute the Plan makes it much more likely that they might actually do it. If we knew for sure that it would be Certain Doom, then there wouldn't be all that much tension about it, since we can be fairly sure OOTS won't ultimately end with the world being destroyed.

[JackRackham]

I think the OP has a very limited idea of drama. Drama need not mean certain destruction. Mystery is dramatic, and there's plenty of that. Moreover, there is still a very real chance of unmaking existence.

To start, if all the gates are destroyed in the struggle, the Gods may unmake the world. If he Dark One's plan succeeds, his endgame may well be the unmaking of the world, so that it can be remade with a Goblin voice at the table. If the snarl is released, it may or may not attack creation. If Xykon successfully screws Redcloak (a very real possibility as he's often shown to be smarter than he seems) who knows what will happen. If Tarquin succeeds, he has an arcane and a divine caster as well, and we can only guess at what he'd do if he could control the snarl. And then there's the IFCC...

Moreover, waiting to find out what MITD is, waiting to learn the true nature of the Snarl, of the Dark One's plan, of the world inside the Snarl, etc., is all very tense and dramatic. What more could you ask for? You want a more simplistic plot?

[Winter]

I've always perceived OOTS as being a character-driven story, not a plot-driven one.

I fully agree and the character-driven part works very well and is highly enjoying. What I find a bit sad is that the "background" story isn't working as well and that is what I wrote about.


Though I don't get how this makes the entire conflict "boring". The seemingly inevitable draw has made me anticipate the conflict will go in the direction of the unexpected, and wildcards will play a key role.

That is what I meant when I wrote "We have to trust the author it'll speed up again". I'm not thinking that is how "drama" should work. Again, this is totally my perspective and I already got (and knew before posting the first post) that people disagree to that.



That reminds me: Tsukiko always struck me as unnecessary.

This is some derailing, but I find it interesting to talk about it as well. I think Tsukiko had a very important role. First, she was there to reveal "The Plan" to everyone who has not read SoD. It was about time that happened, as it is a pretty big thing.
Furthermore, and more important, Tsukiko shook up the relationship between Xykon and Redcloak. They were like an old married couple but with Tsukiko Redcloak suddenly had to fear that relationship gets changed as Xykon has now another capable minion - one that he can trust more than Redcloak.
Due to her being able to cast Redcloak's Half of the ritual (or the entire thing on her own!) was also a massive threat to Redcloak.
Tsukiko changed how Redcloak and Xykon interact, they broke their decades old trot and I think that is a pretty big thing.

She also, this is a sideline, served as mean for Redcloak to reveal very clearly what he thinks of undead and Xykon.
I also found Tsukiko to be an entertaining change in how Team Evil works internally (something that came way too late to the LG in the form of Tarquin/Malack).


I read through most of the posts here, and I don't really have anything to add to the arguments.

I want to use this opportunity to add something: If a story "feels" right is a matter of emotion, not only arguments. I tried find what I feel about the main story as reasons. I think I managed to express that accurately. How someone can take that as negativity is easy to see and I think it has to do with a basic tendency of many humans to put people in two groups "You're either with us or against us". If I dare to say something negative (even with a disclaimer that I enjoy the work in general a lot) about OotS, I must clearly be in the "against us"-camp.


That sounds odd coming from someone who's clearly a huge Song of Ice and Fire fan. We're five books in to that series, and we still really have no idea what the ultimate stakes are in the conflict between "Ice" and "Fire." [...]

Awesome point, I hoped someone would bring it up. The difference between this and aSoIaF is that Martin builds up a mystic enemy and we only know it is there but learn more and more per book (and that if you think hard and a lot about it, you're understanding more and more of what it actually is about). We come to conclusions that aspects and parties that come over as "good" (well, likeable) must belong to the party that has so far been shown as the utter evil. We're also understand that some parties that seem unrelated must belong together. We're also learning there are entire new factions out there (that somehow tie into this or that party or are even a third side).
While we learn, the threat either is known to be "there", yet not where or becomes bigger and bigger as the story progresses.
This works a bit like the early seasons of the X-Files, which did it very similar.
OotS is different, I think. In OotS we learned about Xykon, then about the gates, then about the Snarl. It was a clear progression what the "deal" of the world is, the "threat" was out in the open.
Then it got cut back and not replaced with new information that leaves the threatlevel the same but shifts it into a new perspective or with another escalation. We learned the Snarl and the Rifts weren't the threat we thought they were - and nothing new came out.
So the Snarl does not eat you through the open rifts? Well... now what? I do not find that interesting or teasing (like the early episodes of the X-Files, Babylon 5, or aSoIaF up until the current book or Harry Potter), I find that boring (which is my basic point).


After thousands of pages, we don't really know what the main conflict is.

Yes, I find that to be totally awesome. The level of speculation around that is simply staggering. If I ponder what I could speculate (I love to do that! I can spend hours and a couple beers from 18:00 to 5 am in the morning to speculate about that stuff) in this regard about OotS (What is the Snarl, what information do we have and how can I assemble it into something that makes sense) I cannot think of that much that has any substance. The rug got pulled from below us and beyond "Apparently, something does not add up" there's not really much we can talk about.
Just see this forum that's full of people who want to speculate. Were are all the massive threads about what the Snarl is? You won't find many that are comparable to the question "What is the MitD" simply because we do not have enough information to work with to do decent speculating.

Conclusion: If you want to understand what I complain about, compare the awesome "What is the MitD?"-threads with the very slim and thin "What is this actually about (and what is the Snarl)?"-threads. People do not bother enough to make a big, massive collection thread. I think that is pretty telling about the main-plot (which is not that bad as OotS is character-driven, as it was pointed out above).


I actually think introducing Tarquin has breathed new life into Nale. A while back, someone suggested that many of Nale's traits make a lot more sense in light of being raised by a man like Tarquin. [...]

I fully agree and hope that Nale gets his Final Moment very soon while he still stands in this spotlight. ;)


To be honest, I don't really see where you're coming from on this one. Specifically, while it's true that the threat of the Snarl and the rifts (apparently) aren't the same as what we'd been led to believe, that generates more drama of the unknown, not less.

I think I addressed this above. If you have further questions/unclear positions, feel free to point them out and I'll try to come up with something more concise.


Some characters seem to genuinely believe the story we heard in the first place, and a few have started noticing discrepancies between it and what has now been observed.[...]

I agree, the story works very well for the characters. I have the problem it's not working for me, as I have an outside perspective.
I find it interesting I seem to be pretty alone with this stance, though. So it cannot be as bad as I thought it was. Which is good, I think. :smallwink:


I think the OP has a very limited idea of drama. Drama need not mean certain destruction. Mystery is dramatic, and there's plenty of that. Moreover, there is still a very real chance of unmaking existence.

Did I address this in the section above? I'm not saying "Drama" = "Certain Destruction". If you go for the "mystery drama" that is fine. Both can cause drama and both are fine means to achieve this goal. I just think OotS falls in the "Certain destruction" section, but then took that away. As I wrote above I do not think the "Destruction" part got replaced with an equally gripping "Mystery drama". So far, we did get so little mystery and new pieces after the "Destruction" was removed from the equation that I doubt this is what Rich intended.


To start, if all the gates are destroyed in the struggle, the Gods may unmake the world.

Actually, I think that is a good point (was this mentioned for the first time, now?)


If Xykon successfully screws Redcloak (a very real possibility as he's often shown to be smarter than he seems) who knows what will happen.


We know Xykon still has no clue about what the ritual does. He clearly mistrusts Redcloak, but with Tsukiko taken out, Xykon is still as wise about the Ritual as he was in SoD.


If Tarquin succeeds, he has an arcane and a divine caster as well, and we can only guess at what he'd do if he could control the snarl.

We know Tarquin goes there because... well, because. If he plans more I'd be nice if we got hints of that to actually feel suspense. As I said numerous times before, I think it's bad writing if the author demands of us we trust him "it'll somehow get dramatic later when the final piece of info is given". We need crumbs to cling to, then it's dramatic. If we do not even get those crumbs that form into bread (or something else) later, there's nothing to hook speculation, interest or drama to (you might disagree to that).



What more could you ask for? You want a more simplistic plot?


If you make a complex plot that is worth to get thought about, I want stuff that are worth to get thought about. That means I want little hints and crumbs once in a while. They can (and must!) be incomplete and/or misleading, that is very fine.
With the current main-plot, I'm just not seeing it. So in a way, I do not want a more simplistic plot, I want a more complex plot that can afford to throw more crumbs out without revealing itself while staying mysterious and changeable. As I said: So, the rifts are not as big a threat as we thought? So, now what? Wuhh... yes, now what? Ok, I get a cookie and wait until more is revealed.

[Lorcan]

Winter,

In reading your responses, I keep coming back to the point that you feel that what we saw through the rift above Azure City means that the Snarl is no longer much of a threat. I feel that this is a hasty assumption.

You speak of certainties regarding motivations, abilities, intent and capabilities on the part of those seeking whatever lies beyond the Gates. You are mistaken about that.

Yes, we do have to trust the author to not make the resolution boring. Yes we do have to trust the author to tie it all together.

You've lost a sense of drama because you are too world-weary, too genre savvy to not know what the author has done and where he is taking the story. But you don't know.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Personally the only character I actually dislike in OotS is Therkla.

[Kish]

Recent revelations have indicated that the consequences of the Order's failure will not be, "Xykon's plan goes off without a hitch and he takes over the world as simply as that." But...

That's not really a change. Until Start of Darkness came out, all we knew was that Xykon had some nefarious plans for a Gate. Start of Darkness gave those of us who read it knowledge of what Redcloak's understanding of "The Plan," which turned out to be the Dark One's plan with nothing directly to do with Xykon, was. I don't know about you, Winter, but I was never inclined to bet a great deal that even Redcloak knew what The Plan truly was. Nor am I inclined, now, to bet a great deal that the Dark One doesn't know what's on the other side of the rifts.

As far as I can tell, your objection is that the Order is not battling a clearly-defined-to-the-audience threat doing something that will have clearly-defined-to-the-audience consequences if not battled. But it's the way it always was, really: The Order battles Xykon to protect the world from the not-yet-revealed-but-safe-to-assume-it's-bad.

[Math_Mage]

That is what I meant when I wrote "We have to trust the author it'll speed up again". I'm not thinking that is how "drama" should work. Again, this is totally my perspective and I already got (and knew before posting the first post) that people disagree to that.

This trust is no different from trusting that when a good author slows down the pace doing character development halfway through a novel, that he'll appropriately speed things up in the coming pages. The only difference is that those pages haven't been completed yet.

We aren't basing our trust on wishful thinking, but on a solid history of great writing. I would turn around your argument and say: the only reason you're complaining about this is that you think Rich might stupidly keep the pace of the main plot this slow for the rest of the comic, which is blind pessimism rather than rational criticism.

On a side note, ASoIaF might be a sprawling epic, but over the last couple of books it has sprawled flat on its face, lost all sense of pacing, and thrown in a few too many "evil people having gratuitous deviant sex" (connotations of "it's baaaaad because evil people are doing it") for my liking on top of everything else.

[Typewriter]

All I have to say is that I disagree with your points - not specifically because I think they're wrong, just because I'm looking at the story from a different perspective. You're looking for drama and action - all I see is a mystery. Everything is a mystery, everything is building, everything is unknown. That's what I have interest in.

1. Is the Linear Guild A-List material? No - Tarquin and Malack up the ante a bit but Nale and all that? Meh - but why are they here? What is going to happen to them? If Nale is so *obviously* lame why does he keep coming back - surely he's going to serve some further plot point eventually. Is he going to die tragically? Join Xykon? Fall into the Rift? Accidentally succeed at killing one of the Order? I don't know and that intrigues me. Nale isn't interesting because of anything he's done, but the continual inclusion of him makes me think he's going to fulfill an important role and that mystery is far more fascinating to me than if he was a legitimate threat.

2. The race - again you're right - why does it matter who gets there first? Because there is no ultimate 'solution' to any one side arriving that means that it's truly impossible to predict who will get their first. Hell, Xycon could already be there. If we knew what the Order would accomplish by getting there first we would probably know whether or not they were going to arrive first. There is no direct 'tension' here but there is the unknown. Who is going to arrive first and what are they going to accomplish?

3. I saw you post at one point something along the lines of, "as it stands now there is no Snarl" - first off I don't know where you got that from. We may not know where the Snarl is but nothing could be used as evidence to say that there is no Snarl. All we have is another Unknown. Looking into the rift wasn't answering a question it was creating a dozen more. And if there is no Snarl then why does everyone think there is? What are the real motivations behind everything? What is going on?

You also state that you have problems with the 'main story' - I'm going to be honest, I don't know what the 'main story' is and I don't think it's really possible to know at this point. Obviously it involves the OotS and the gates but do we know who the main villain is? Is it Xykon? Probably, but do we know that? Who are the (theoretical) nine sides in the conflict?

tl;dr - I think the reason you're bored is because you're expecting a drama and OotS is not necessarily one. Obviously it's a comedy, but beyond that what is the goal of the story it's telling? I feel like it's trying to make me think, that it's approaching ideas and stories in a way different from the standard. I don't expect action and straight forward linear stories, I expect a mystery in which all the pieces come together and I just want to see that happen. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the whole thing is a straight-foward comedic drama and the entire second half is going to be about Xykon vs. Roy, but we're talking about a story in which a major plot point is the racist abuse that a monstrous race has endured all in the name of 'true good'.

[martianmister]

This has not happened. If Team Evil wins, nothing happens for now. They have to cast their ritual first and we do not know if that is a problem. We do not know how long it will take. All we know is that if they arrive, the race is not over, the other parties are still in the game.

TE needs "few weeks" to complete the ritual. (Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html))

[Leliel]

Winter,

In reading your responses, I keep coming back to the point that you feel that what we saw through the rift above Azure City means that the Snarl is no longer much of a threat. I feel that this is a hasty assumption.

Indeed. Could be that the Snarl has become a sentient planet, and wants to replace the current world with itself for some reason. Perhaps it got fed up with the concept of alignment, which causes more arguments than anything else, and sees the gods repeating the same mistakes over and over again. It rewove itself to create a testing ground for its theories on a different moral system, and believes them superior enough that it is willing to crush an entire plane of existence because it's better than letting the world live on.

[Carry2]

1. The Linear Guild isn't A-Material
...The problem is I have with this that even the characters know it. The author knows it. The characters comment on how lame a second round with Thog would be and it even does not have a "big mystery" to reveal as we already knew who the fake Thog was...
I find it puzzling how an author can be that aware his setup is weak (as it was done already several times and in-comic commented on)... and still do it.
This. I mean, the Linear Guild outlived their novelty value roughly five minutes after... actually, they never had novelty value. That was the whole point. They might be tolerable as occasional black-comic relief, but they can't shoulder the weight of a genuine dramatic arc without moving beyond their status as one-note stereotypes. Which is their entire raison-d'etre.

I don't think the key problem with the assault on the Gates is a lack of stakes or even a lack of suspense, it's the basic problem you have with any undeniable existential threat as a basic story mechanic- in and of and by itself, it tells you nothing about the characters' personalities. On a thematic level, zombie movies aren't about killing zombies, because that's a no-brainer. They're about the choices that survival forces on people, and what that tells you about their state of mind.

Anyone who isn't actively suicidal has a compelling reason to not want the world to end, so as a basic premise it just hoovers up everyone indiscriminately. And since the OOTS got back together, there hasn't been much else to define them. Even the Empire of Blood sequence gave little insight into their characters, as- with a few exceptions- they went along passively with the circumstances forced upon them.

The actual agonists of this sequence have been, for the most part, Malack and Tarquin- and naturally Redcloak. (Of course, my personal pick for most-interesting-character has been knocked out of the roster for some time, but that's another matter.)

But, we'll see where the whole thing with V and Durkon is going. Maybe things will pick up.

[TheYell]

I disagree that there isn't any sense of Danger in the opening of the Gates. Maybe it's a harmless new world; maybe it's a danger than can be exploited by the Goblin Dark One; maybe it's the Snarl; maybe nothing bad happens except the Infernal Powers had a plan for the use of the Gates.

Because of that, I don't feel a lack of drama in the 3-sided race, or even that the Linear Guild isn't worth watching. There's still the question of what players are going to be on the stage at the same time; we could have a 3 way battle for a gate. How will the Linear Guild line up? That's likely to resolve a lot of the family soap operas and create new tensions.

All in all, this graphic novel is better than Dr. Zhivago.

[Winter]

I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"

[Math_Mage]

I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"

...You mean, spend hundreds of comics on character buildup and then make a threat in the process of completing the character? I agree, but doesn't that sort of undermine your criticism of the comic's progression?

[Winter]

...You mean, spend hundreds of comics on character buildup and then make a threat in the process of completing the character? I agree, but doesn't that sort of undermine your criticism of the comic's progression?

No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.

[Math_Mage]

No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.

It kinda helps that Malack and Tarquin are actual villains, whereas the Snarl is the potential tool of a few villains and the perceived tool of several others. Again, you're comparing two different designs--all the more obvious because one is a subplot of the other.

[Winter]

Again, you're comparing two different designs--all the more obvious because one is a subplot of the other.

I more think you refuse to take my perspective. The distinction between "object", "character" or "situation" vanishes when you see them all as "plot tools". There's no difference between "A chaos-thingie will eat the empire" and "Some Vampire Overlord wants to take power" that stems from one being a not-character and the other a character.
I expressed what I wanted to expressed and I think I did it in a concise way. You're free to follow it or not (and the "not" can also be for the wrong reasons).

[ChristianSt]

No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.

I can't quite get your argument. I think it only works under the assumption that we know what the Snarl is, which we totally don't know. I think the problem with "we don't have enough Snarl-discussion" is [which I do not think is a problem], that we don't know enough to even get a solid starting point (nearly anything is possible (and even in the beginning we didn't know all that much - we learned tiny little bits (especially that it isn't really clear what's going on)).

By assuring that there are enough parties showing interest in the Snarl/Gates, it is pretty safe to assume that it is not good. (Best example: The IFCC: We know that they are up to something really nasty: 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). Even if the Snarl is no threat at all (which I think is quite unlikely), the Gates are really dangerous ("5*Familicide-Kill-Count=trival" is really bad news), maybe it doesn't involve the Snarl, maybe the Gates have more uses than sealing the rifts)

So the question for me is, why you think the Snarl/Gates are not interesting? Because we learn to little of them? (We learn about them at a real slow pace, but with all subplots/characters going on, it would be kinda unsatisfactory to skip to the end in the next 5 strips) Not advancing main plot != boring. [And in advancing-main-plot, I think GRRM isn't really faster than Rich, heck there I don't even know what the main-plot is after reading 5 books (which where totally awesome)]

Unless Rich (or GRRM) want to go "Lost" on us, I really don't have a problem with such a slow main-plot-pace. (And even then I would have to say it would have been worth my time, though it would be a real strong letdown)

[Winter]

, that we don't know enough to even get a solid starting point

Yes, that is exactly where it gets boring to me. We have no starting points and not much to work from there.

Drama-by-Mystery: It's no mystery to discover because we do not know where to start and what to talk about.

Drama-by-Danger: It also does not stand on its own as the Rifts apparently eat no one, as the comic has very solidly established.

You pretty much nailed my complaint with the above quote (and I know I ripped the following context off).

[Kish]

I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"
So...what's the problem with the current main-plot? Which is about the Order trying to stop Tarquin and Malack (and their pawns in the Linear Guild) while Xykon and Redcloak move in the background?

No, build up an interesting setting from point one and keep it interesting by throwing in more and more morsels at us, then culmulating in an escalation that makes it even worse than we thought.
Malack has been an interesting character from the start before a threatening environment and now turned into a an actual threat that must get stopped. We did not have to wait and wait and wait and wait for being able to speculate that "something is wrong with Malack", we could discuss that from the start.

The Snarl was an interesting "character" but then got clubbed down without a replacement showing up and without us learning more to keep it interesting.

Just look how many "Is Malack evil?"- or "Does Malack know about Tarquins plans?"-discussions and compare them to the usually simple and short-lived "Ok, what do we know about the Snarl" discussions. You'll find much more and more complex discussions of the former two types than of the latter.
But the Snarl was never a character--

I more think you refuse to take my perspective. The distinction between "object", "character" or "situation" vanishes when you see them all as "plot tools". There's no difference between "A chaos-thingie will eat the empire" and "Some Vampire Overlord wants to take power" that stems from one being a not-character and the other a character.
--uh.

I don't--but this makes no sense. The Snarl was never presented as something that had any independent intelligence. The question was always and only "what will it do if channeled by Xykon/Redcloak/The Dark One." Comparing Malack threads to Snarl threads doesn't make any sense; effectively, you're complaining that Malack is a more interesting character than Malack's staff. We can discuss the morality, knowledge, and plans of Xykon, Redcloak, the Dark One, the Dark One's allies among the gods right now. You may not want to make a distinction between "a character" and "not a character," but the answer to your current complaint is still: if you expect a "plot tool" that isn't a character to be interesting and complex in the same ways a character would be, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Yes, that is exactly where it gets boring to me. We have no starting points and not much to work from there.

Drama-by-Mystery: It's no mystery to discover because we do not know where to start and what to talk about.
Well, let's see. How about:

What will Xykon do if Redcloak performs his ritual and nothing happens?
Does the Dark One know what's actually behind the rifts?

...and, again, as I said in one of the posts you said you didn't read, how is this different from the state of the online comic circa strip #828? The state of the entire published comic one day before Start of Darkness came out?

[Dwy]

Just throwing this one out there, even if it's only related to one of the OP's points:

I personally believe getting first to the gate might not only be important to the Order to summon the planar ally, but also in order to start Elan's great plan. On a similiar note, I believe that they'd need LG to come second, and Team Evil to stay away for the plan to be in effect.

What do we know of the plan?
1. It doesn't sparkle "Elan, you're stupid" arguments from his team members, this may imply that there's something to it.

2. It involves Tarquin and Nale, the two leaders of the Linear Guild. As such it may greatly change one of the three parties after the gate.

3. It's a story, and as such, there's no way it will go exactly as planned, but still, we know there's something up that might change the status quo greatly, but again, this depends on the order getting time to prepare.

Based on these speculations I feel there's some urgency to getting to the Gate first for the Order.

[Winter]

I don't know about you, Winter, but I was never inclined to bet a great deal that even Redcloak knew what The Plan truly was. Nor am I inclined, now, to bet a great deal that the Dark One doesn't know what's on the other side of the rifts.[...]

This is not my issue. Not knowing everything is fine and how it must be. My issue is that the Snarl is super-dangerous and everything of the rifts we saw earlier indicates this is true.
My issue is that we have proof now the Rifts in itself are harmless and the Snarl does not seem to be there anymore.
Yes, I can speculate the Rifts are not doing anything because there are still other gates on it, I can speculate that the planet was just an illusion (imagine... a sleeping Snarl?). I can do all those things but my problem is that I *have* to do them to find a sense of threat in the main plot and have to trust that, while it's not there, currently, the author will at some point in the future tell us again "Yeah, this is still dangerous".
Imagine Fox Mulder chasing some Alien-Iluminati-conspiracy and at the end of Season 3 he finds some massive mystery that resolves a lot but makes sure there's a big, big threat. Then in the first episode of the next season, one night, he gets a phonecall explaining to him there, indeed, is that conspiracy but "We are going on a vacation for the next year. Feel free to chase us in between, we're going to be back and we're going to call you".
This is how the main-threat feels to me at the moment. The entire season might be good but the Big Stuff That is Really Moving Behind the Scenes isn't interesting until the phonecall came that Dr. Evil and his Minions are back from their vacation of Doing Nothing.


This trust is no different from trusting that when a good author slows down the pace doing character development halfway through a novel, that he'll appropriately speed things up in the coming pages. The only difference is that those pages haven't been completed yet.

As I said before, I disagree. Even before the author slows the pacing, he should not just put his threat into sleepmode.


On a side note, ASoIaF might be a sprawling epic, but over the last couple of books it has sprawled flat on its face, lost all sense of pacing, and thrown in a few too many "evil people having gratuitous deviant sex" (connotations of "it's baaaaad because evil people are doing it") for my liking on top of everything else.

Ok, let's talk about ASoIaF: Yes, I think the 4th book and the first 3rd of the 5th is too slow. Lots of people walk around and do character development while the main-plot stagnates somewhat. I think I could call up the same critique about that than I'm doing right now, here.
And that critique (see above!) still stands even if I am more happy with how the fifth book went on. That is what you meant "The author picks it up again, you just need to be patient". No. Even if he did, especially at the end of book 5, I still think that book 4 is somewhat "less than optimal" (like the main-threat of this comic at the moment).
I think book 4 isn't doing a lot of "going anywhere". Btw, this is something I do not see in OotS. All the cool character plots do go somewhere and whatever seems slow there is just a matter of pacing (and I can live with that). I just dislike Nale, the rest is totally fine. ;)
And while we are at it: I am very skeptical how the (so far very good) TV show will work out during book 4, especially if they want to split that into two seasons.


TE needs "few weeks" to complete the ritual. (Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html))

Thank you, I forgot that section. So if Team Evil wins, they're actually going to sit at the gate. Maybe they already are? ;)


So...what's the problem with the current main-plot? Which is about the Order trying to stop Tarquin and Malack (and their pawns in the Linear Guild) while Xykon and Redcloak move in the background?

Yes, about that. As I wrote above already.


I don't--but this makes no sense. The Snarl was never presented as something that had any independent intelligence.

It does not have to. It just needs to be a threat of a convincing scale. It does not matter, in regard to being a plot-device, if it can explain why it wants to eat your soul and why it picked this time and place or you know if it just will because it's chaos.


if you expect a "plot tool" that isn't a character to be interesting and complex in the same ways a character would be, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

If the driving motivator behind "everything" is "We need to save the world from entity X" then the plot requires "Entity X" to be a threat to the world.
Right now, the Snarl seems to sleep behind the rifts and it is left to me to imagine why that is (or could) still be a problem.
I love to speculate on mystery-enemies and what they mean and want or why they are, but I see no point in having to come up with my own reasons why the "mystery" is the "enemy" to make what's going on gripping.


What will Xykon do if Redcloak performs his ritual and nothing happens?
Does the Dark One know what's actually behind the rifts?

I find those questions interesting. What I do not find interesting is watching a bunch of people running at a chest where they believe the switch to unhinge the universe to be in but it already got revealed to us it's disabled anyway at the moment.


...and, again, as I said in one of the posts you said you didn't read, how is this different from the state of the online comic circa strip #828? The state of the entire published comic one day before Start of Darkness came out?

It is different because:
First, it was a D&D-joke strip. No one expected a story.
Then it was about defeating Xykon, who was evil. I still did not expect an epic story, but being on a Dungeon Crawl and some Evil Lich being at the end was a perfectly working threat the Order. It worked.
The Xykon was defeated, but we instantly learned that he was still up and running. That was fine, as whatever Xykon wanted to do with the gates still was on the tap. Xykon was clearly a threat in the background, he just needed time to regenerate.
Then the story escalated. We learned from Shojo what the gates actually were and it now was not about stopping a sorcerer from doing something with some gate (which must be bad) but about saving the world from getting unmade.
That stayed the driving motivator behind the story. Us learning the Plan of Redcloak (in SoD or the strip you posted) changed nothing, as we knew the Snarl was super-dangerous to fiddle with it and it could very well end in the unmaking of the world.

The problem now is that we were told "The Rifts are bad and daaaangerous! Don't mess with them" but Azure City was for ages below it, nothing happened. A lot of Gates have been destroyed, nothing happened. Redcloak mucked around with the Rift when he was interrogating O-Chul, nothing happend. Xykon and Blackwing flew right next to it, nothing happened. Blackwing looked into the Rift and saw... nothing snarly.
So the driving threat behind everything that was "This is daaangerous!" and as such was not complex but surely worked got turned into "Well, apparently not. Now... let's wait for... it to go on". I think many people here disagree to that, but I simply do not find that gripping.


Based on these speculations I feel there's some urgency to getting to the Gate first for the Order.

What could Elan do with the gate that he cannot do outside of the door while Tarquin looks at the gate and tries to come up with an idea what to do with it?
Whatever Elan's plan is, I doubt it involves the gates. It might involve his mother, someone else we met or have not met, but I'd be surprised if he needs the gate for a while to dress it up in a his father surprising way.

[ChristianSt]

So everything would be fine if a few random goblins a month (or week?) would die to Snarl/Rift-radiation?

And besides that - we know - that the IFCC is up to something really nasty. (That was revealed nearly the same time as planet-inside-rift thing). So unless you say that's also bogus, the main target is still more or less saving the world. (Ok, maybe it is not god-eating-abomination-bad)

[Math_Mage]

As I said before, I disagree. Even before the author slows the pacing, he should not just put his threat into sleepmode.

His threat started in sleepmode. What's your point?


Ok, let's talk about ASoIaF: Yes, I think the 4th book and the first 3rd of the 5th is too slow. Lots of people walk around and do character development while the main-plot stagnates somewhat. I think I could call up the same critique about that than I'm doing right now, here.

ASoIaF didn't do character development in those books, though. It just made the world even bigger and introduced a bunch of new characters that only got minimal characterization. OotS put Team Evil in a holding pattern while the protagonists dealt with personal plotlines and the EoB; ASoIaF threw together so many plotlines and people that a 1000-page book couldn't give half of them adequate time to develop. Those are very different choices with very different critiques.


If the driving motivator behind "everything" is "We need to save the world from entity X" then the plot requires "Entity X" to be a threat to the world.

That was never the driving motivator behind everything, though. It was always secondary to whatever the villains (!) were planning to do with the Gates. It's an Armageddon clock, not the Antichrist. I think a lot of your complaints derive from this over-emphasis of the Snarl as an active player in the plot. It isn't, and that's by design.

[TheYell]

Yes, that is exactly where it gets boring to me. We have no starting points and not much to work from there.

Drama-by-Mystery: It's no mystery to discover because we do not know where to start and what to talk about.

Drama-by-Danger: It also does not stand on its own as the Rifts apparently eat no one, as the comic has very solidly established.

You pretty much nailed my complaint with the above quote (and I know I ripped the following context off).

Your rules pretty much disqualify everything considered to be good science fiction.

[The Giant]

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

[Math_Mage]

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

I know this is kinda hijacking the point, but this perfectly sums up my dissatisfaction with ASoIaF.

Um. Anyway. Great post, Giant.

[Excise]

At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

I'd actually disagree with this. I care about more than 'just' whether Han, Luke, Leia and the others live or die. The threat of knowing the Empire will keep ruling the galaxy and do evil things to people is important. The stakes would be too low if it was just about the protagonists living or dying.

[The Giant]

I'd actually disagree with this. I care about more than 'just' whether Han, Luke, Leia and the others live or die. The threat of knowing the Empire will keep ruling the galaxy and do evil things to people is important. The stakes would be too low if it was just about the protagonists living or dying.

The Empire does keep ruling the galaxy—for two more movies. So clearly, that's not really what was at stake there. What was at stake was whether the protagonists (and their allies) would be alive to keep fighting the Empire.

If Yavin 4 had been blown up, but every single protagonist had escaped, it would have had no impact on the rest of the movies at all. The planet was narratively disposable, just like Alderaan before it (whose only purpose was to show how eeeeevil the Empire was). Conversely, if every protagonist died but Yavin 4 was saved, that would have still been an awful ending, because it's the protagonists we care about.

But I don't really want to argue Star Wars; it's an example, not my main point. It may not be the best possible example, but it's the one that popped into my head while writing.

[Lvl45DM!]

The current arc thats happening right now isn't about the Linear Guild i feel. Its about Tarquin and Malack and the Empire of Blood. Rich just put as much effort into these guys as he did Azure City.
I'll grant I'm not feeling the overwhelming threat of the Snarl in each strip. I don't think I ever have felt the overwhelming threat in any fantasy work except LOTR. I care way more about Tywin being an evil monster than the mostly theoretical ice zombies up North in ASOIAF. I care more about Sam and Dean killing the Demon of the episode than stopping the apocalypse of the season. I care more about Parson beating Spacerock (sort of) than his destiny as the one who stops Erfworld's wars.
That said when the ice zombies Horsemen of the Apocalypse and crazy Carnymancers obsessed with fate attack I care about the epic plot then. But right now I'm not in the frame of mind to worry about what's going on with the Snarl COS DURKON IS GETTING EATEN BY A VAMPIRE SNAKELIZARD GENOCIDAL LUNATIC. The Snarl thing happens when it happens. This is an episodic series. Enjoy the episodes

[Carry2]

...The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story.
Yeah, but my point (at least) was that it's not clear how the recent plotline has actually showcased the characters' conflicts (and that the Snarl plotline is actually, in certain ways, orthogonal to that purpose. To take your Star Wars example, the overriding goal of destroying the Empire is interesting mainly as a counterweight to, for example, Luke's desire to redeem Vader in ROTJ, or rescue Han and Leia in TESB. That's how you know he cares about them, because he's willing to compromise that laudable goal for the sake of those personal relationships.* That's how you gain information about the character- i.e, find them relatable.)

It just kinda feels like the Order have been following the path of least resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) for a while now. Aside from Belkar's twinge of conscience in the arena, V's pang of conscience in the pyramid, and a total absence of conscience regarding YukYuk's treatment, I don't really know much about the Order's personalities that wasn't reasonably clear 200 strips ago.

Malack and Tarquin, on the other hand, have gotten a great deal of development (in the sense of personality-revelation, not necessarily personality-change,) and over that timeframe have arguably been the most significant movers and shakers behind depicted events. That's why I see them as the agonists of this sequence- not because they're sympathetic as such, but because we know who they are, and why that matters.


*I'm reminded of a line from The Immunity Syndrome:

"I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one, than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours."

.

[gerryq]

I agree that the Linear Guild are a bit weak, but they introduced Tarquin and Malack, two characters with huge potential. I think they may well be involved in the final face-off, possibly on opposite sides. Tarquin, ultimately a nihilist, may join Xycon. Malack, who cares only for lawful, ordered destruction, may fight him.

Edit: yes I know, Angelus versus Spike :smallsmile:

[Chantelune]

It just kinda feels like the Order have been following the path of least resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) for a while now. Aside from Belkar's twinge of conscience in the arena, V's pang of conscience in the pyramid, and a total absence of conscience regarding YukYuk's treatment, I don't really know much about the Order's personalities that wasn't reasonably clear 200 strips ago.



Character's growth is a tricky thing to manage. Too much and not only it might become a trivial thing, but it might even changes the character way too much in too little time. Evolving is good for character, but sometimes, it's best if they stay true to themselves long enough so the sudden character growth or change get more impact.

Takes Durkon : he stayed mostly the exact same for nearly 900 strips, having very little changes during all that time. I think this is partly why people are so moved by him becoming what he always loathed. We knew "good old Durkon" to the point that such a drastic change seems all the more baffling.

[Fitzclowningham]

Just in reply to #1, I don't know how you can fail to find Malack fascinating. All the LG stuff has been comedy relief and window-dressing to the Malack-Durkon plot.

[Jay R]

The planet was narratively disposable, just like Alderaan before it (whose only purpose was to show how eeeeevil the Empire was).

"Narratively disposable". What a perfect phrase. It communicates your point precisely.

[Temotei]

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

To be fair, Winter said he does enjoy the comic (and, in fact, it's one of his favorites, according to a following post). He cares about the protagonists and (most of) the antagonists. His problem lies in the background--"the armature upon which [you] hang the characters' conflicts"--itself.

I might not agree with Winter, but his point of view is that that armature is boring while the characters are interesting and if the background were just a bit more vivid, the entire story would be just a bit brighter.

I'm not trying to speak for you or Winter. That's just what I got out of it.

Good post, though, overall. I especially like the distinction between the Snarl as the main threat versus Xykon as the main threat.

[The Troubadour]

I partly agree with the OP. Personally, what's keeping me most interested in the story right now isn't the plot, but the characters; I loved the confrontation between Durkon and Malack, and I'm very anxious to see how Elan will deal with Tarquin. But the plot itself? I'm not that interested anymore. Maybe when I read the book with the collected strips, it will flow better.

[WoLong]

I did not have time to read the last replies, but given the current comic shows it so nicely:

THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) is how you set up a decent threat and make readers believe "Yes, that is something that needs to get stopped!"

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories. Why does the story always have to revolve around 'high-stakes' races and doom if the protagonists fail? That describes almost all high fantasy; give me something new.

Of course I don't mind if that's a major element, but you seem to be complaining that you're not feeling sufficiently threatened all the time.

[Temotei]

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories. Why does the story always have to revolve around 'high-stakes' races and doom if the protagonists fail? That describes almost all high fantasy; give me something new.

Of course I don't mind if that's a major element, but you seem to be complaining that you're not feeling sufficiently threatened all the time.

Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean others don't want that sort of story.

[The Giant]

Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean others don't want that sort of story.

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

[Lombard]

Let's not forget it's a campaign.

The Party got beat by Xykon because they weren't nearly epic enough to defeat him. DM creates some distractions to keep Xykon busy for awhile and the party goes off on a sub-campaign to become truly epic.

Did you think that the OoTS would become capable of defeating one of the world's most powerful villains by doing some dungeon crawls and a few outdoor modules? No, they've got to become legendary in their own right first. Each of them must become more than they were. That process, so easily quantified on a character sheet, is being expressed quite well in story form I think. Your mileage may vary.


Edit: posting under The Giant ftw

[MeanMrsMustard]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?
That is the greatest comeback I have seen all day.

My two cp: I totally trust the Giant with this. It's not like he's writing by the seat of his pants — he's had this planned out for about as long as my youngest brother has been alive. He's consistently shown that he's good at writing and telling a story, so if there's a "slow patch" or whatever, it really doesn't bother me. The humor, characters, and storyline have been enhancing my life for over a year now, and I intend to stick with this comic until it's finished.

[Malak'ai]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

Rich is right. This is his story. He's telling it how he wants to and I'm just thankful that he takes the time to sit down and draw it for us to enjoy.

[SavageWombat]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

Ignore the haters. Get some sleep.

[Winter]

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories.

Well, if you look at it, there are basically only two kinds of stories (at all).


Ones where the stakes for the "surroundings" are high and where it actually is about fighting that threat (and character Development is very enjoyable to read, but it ultimately is a mean to that).
Ones where it actually is not about the stakes, but it actually is about the main character's development (and the Big Threat is actually only a mean to drive the character).


No matter what it is on the surface, if you look below it, it turns out to be one or the other. The stories where it really is a mix are relatively rare, if it is one, the other is very often a side effect, filling or a McGuffin (please note the "scale" does not move the second category into the first).

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season.

Stories of the second type are for example Planescape: Torment, Memento, 12 Monkeys, Fight Club, 8 Bit Theatre, maybe also The Hobbit.
In some way, A Song of Ice and Fire is this type as well (so far, after 5 books, we do not even know what the actual threat is actually supposed to be), it just is not "about the Main Character" but "About Basically Every Character".

(Note that which category a work is says nothing about its quality!)

I think complaining the first is not the second is off the point, I think. OotS is a classic epic-let's-fight-the-threat-story, therefore, you need the epic threat it's all about.

[Temotei]

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

I was just pointing out that not everyone has the same desire. If anything, that helps rather than harms you.


Ignore the haters. Get some sleep.

I don't think anybody here is a hater, or we wouldn't spend so much time posting about stick figures. :smalltongue:


OotS is a classic epic-let's-fight-the-threat-story, therefore, you need the epic threat it's all about.

Categorizing the story like that seems...off, to me. The story isn't finished, first of all, so it's hard to say what type it falls under, if we stick to the idea that there are only those two types of story. Secondly, I think it could be argued that Order of the Stick is in the first, second, or "mixed" category. Regardless, that doesn't change the story itself, and the story itself is again, not finished, and also not ours to categorize.

[The Giant]

Well, if you look at it, there are basically only two kinds of stories (at all).


Ones where the stakes for the "surroundings" are high and where it actually is about fighting that threat (and character Development is very enjoyable to read, but it ultimately is a mean to that).
Ones where it actually is not about the stakes, but it actually is about the main character's development (and the Big Threat is actually only a mean to drive the character).


No matter what it is on the surface, if you look below it, it turns out to be one or the other. The stories where it really is a mix are relatively rare, if it is one, the other is very often a side effect, filling or a McGuffin (please note the "scale" does not move the second category into the first).

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season.

Stories of the second type are for example Planescape: Torment, Memento, 12 Monkeys, Fight Club, 8 Bit Theatre, maybe also The Hobbit.
In some way, A Song of Ice and Fire is this type as well (so far, after 5 books, we do not even know what the actual threat is actually supposed to be), it just is not "about the Main Character" but "About Basically Every Character".

(Note that which category a work is says nothing about its quality!)

I think complaining the first is not the second is off the point, I think. OotS is a classic epic-let's-fight-the-threat-story, therefore, you need the epic threat it's all about.

How does it not occur to you that it is far more likely that you are miscategorizing OOTS than that I am making an elaborate series of mistakes in telling my own story?

This is me, the author, telling you that you are wrong. It's the second kind. It has been for a long time, certainly since the "Haley's Aphasia" plotline. You're looking at my Type #2 story and complaining that I haven't made it Type #1 enough. Mind you, I don't actually agree that those are the only two types of story, but within the context that you have set up? You're jamming a square peg into a round hole and then blaming the peg maker for it not being round enough.

[EmperorSarda]

I am so sick of the 'stop the horrible threat' kind of stories. Why does the story always have to revolve around 'high-stakes' races and doom if the protagonists fail? That describes almost all high fantasy; give me something new.


Read Twilight then. No stakes, no horrible threat, no doom if the protagonist fails.

[Temotei]

Read Twilight then. No stakes, no horrible threat, no doom if the protagonist fails.

To be fair, in the first book, Twilight, if Edward failed to protect Bella from the other vampires, she would have probably died. If she didn't die, she would have become a vampire, something he never wanted. Later on, the Volturi become the main threat in that they threaten Bella and everything she holds dear with deformed justice in the form of death/destruction. These are the main dangers, though there are others throughout the series.

The Twilight Saga sucked balls, but it had some stakes.

Still, this is about The Order of the Stick, not The Twilight Saga.

[deworde]

I cannot express enough my confusion at this thread not being locked before the Giant even posted.

1) The title is deliberately inflammatory, as a negative absolute statement always is. ("Is Anyone Else Bored?" would have been better, "What About The Snarl" would have been even better still)
2) These arguments were tired when they were being made during DStP, and at least there the whole point was either party's lack of progress towards or away from the endgame. Here there is direct, measurable progress, by at least three parties capable of affecting the outcome, as well as a bucketload of character development for Belkar, V and Durkon. I mean, if this is annoying you, the Cliffport saga must have driven you *mental*.
3) The inbaked assumptions in the OP (vis, that this is a story about saving the world, rather than a story about a party of adventurers) have been discredited by the author and questioned by about half the posters.
4) It seems to be annoying the Giant, which leads us to the Zivkovic principle (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/a-blog-around-the-clock/2013/01/28/commenting-threads-good-bad-or-not-at-all/):
"Free Speech ... does not mean you have the right to say your stuff on my blog. It means you have the right to start your own blog."
5) We're now arguing about the narrative nature of classic genre fiction, which is at least more interesting than "I'm Bored", "But look at all the cool stuff..." "Still Bored!", but surely we've got an existing thread for this by now, and one with a better title.

By virtue of title alone, this thread? It be a troll thread. If voting to lock was an option, I would.

[Winter]

This is me, the author, telling you that you are wrong. It's the second kind. It has been for a long time, certainly since the "Haley's Aphasia" plotline. You're looking at my Type #2 story and complaining that I haven't made it Type #1 enough. Mind you, I don't actually agree that those are the only two types of story, but within the context that you have set up? You're jamming a square peg into a round hole and then blaming the peg maker for it not being round enough.

I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding: I wasn't replying to you, I have been replying to the person complaining about your story. In this case, I pointed out the person is reading a classic "There's Evil going on Story" and therefore should not complain it's a classic There's Evil going on Story (with more Character Development than you'd see in a movie as this comic has more time).
If we're agreeing or disagree if OotS is that does not really matter here as the conception of the person I replied to is like. I actually defended your story here.

I am not complaining OotS isn't enough Type #2.
Yet, I am a bit tired of dissecting what I was actually complaining about as OP and I really do not want to state again "Yes, I have that complaint, but in general I enjoy the story very much" so I'm just dropping this as it's not mattering that much. As it has also started to actually incite you, I'm seeing it doing much more harm than good anyway, so I'm not going to proceed.
I'm just enjoying OotS to, I don't know, 90% of what it's "Personal Enjoyment Potential" is and I'm fine with that.

Sorry for raising those 10% by voicing them, in the future I'm just going to talk about the other 90%.

[Bulldog Psion]

How does it not occur to you that it is far more likely that you are miscategorizing OOTS than that I am making an elaborate series of mistakes in telling my own story?

This is me, the author, telling you that you are wrong. It's the second kind. It has been for a long time, certainly since the "Haley's Aphasia" plotline. You're looking at my Type #2 story and complaining that I haven't made it Type #1 enough. Mind you, I don't actually agree that those are the only two types of story, but within the context that you have set up? You're jamming a square peg into a round hole and then blaming the peg maker for it not being round enough.

The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. :smallconfused: They seem to be on your side.

They were answering someone else who was possibly answering someone else. There is nothing negative in what they said, and nothing negative in about 2/3 of the posts in this thread, either, from what I can see.

[Kish]

Let's not forget it's a campaign.

The Party got beat by Xykon because they weren't nearly epic enough to defeat him. DM creates some distractions to keep Xykon busy for awhile and the party goes off on a sub-campaign to become truly epic.
...Pretty sure that's zero for four.
(Not a campaign. There is no DM. Xykon is not distracted, he is advancing his world domination scheme. The Order has been actively opposing that scheme ever since they found out he's still among the unliving, not going on a sub-campaign "to become truly epic.")

[allenw]

The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. :smallconfused: They seem to be on your side.



However, they seem to (still) be saying that OotS is a "Type 1" story, even after Rich explicitly says it's not. I suspect some kind of miscommunication is happening.

[Winter]

However, they seem to (still) be saying that OotS is a "Type 1" story, even after Rich explicitly says it's not. I suspect some kind of miscommunication is happening.

Could you please drop that? There seems to be a miscommunication what the Type #1 and #2 mean that I introduced (Rich seems to have read something other than I wrote, so we were talking about different things) but I totally don't see the point to dissect that further.
There's only so much ad-hoc made-up categories can communicate and even if we'd be on the same page, the information gain would probably not be worth the characters used to explain it.

My point why I added the categories in the first place was this:
I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Anything beyond that basic statement can slide.
Especially if it'd be about getting into a lengthy and ultimately pointless discussion with the author about where what made-up category might get interpreted in what way, where this or that miscommunication might have happened and what the interpretational-ly scope and meanings could be etc etc etc.

[SavageWombat]

You know, Rich's comment brings to mind an interesting point.

When we attempt to predict the end of the story, we've been predicting how some sort of climactic fight would go. Or something similar.

If Rich is primarily telling a character story, then we need to focus on the character-development crisis point - probably with Roy - and what would that be?

[Kish]

I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.
Uh...what?

[teratorn]

I sort of agree with the thread title, everything after Miko has been boring, she'll always be the protagonist in my heart. :smallwink:

I view OOTS as mostly Roy's story. What is important is not the quest in itself but the lessons he learns and how they impact his relation with others. He's the guiding thread for the whole story, while for the other team members it's more about individual arcs. All that Azure City arc, with the battles and the gate, was impressive and entertaining when it happened but I saw it most as a Belkar arc, first by having him taunt Miko and make her insane, and then giving him both the mark and Mr Scruffy, defining features of the new Belkar that is about to die. Roy and Elan also changed in important ways in that arc, but it was truly important for Belkar. Similarly Roy's death was mostly important for fleshing out V (not finished yet) and Haley. I really want to see the current plot finished, it's flowing out nicely.

[Fish]

I don't see why this is difficult. The story isn't driven by what the Maguffin does.

It's driven by what the villain THINKS it does.

And it's driven by what the hero thinks the villain thinks it does.

If the Maguffin doesn't, in fact, do that, it's called "dramatic irony." Do you get annoyed and flustered because Oedipus can't track down his father's real killer?

[WoLong]

I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding: I wasn't replying to you, I have been replying to the person complaining about your story. In this case, I pointed out the person is reading a classic "There's Evil going on Story" and therefore should not complain it's a classic There's Evil going on Story (with more Character Development than you'd see in a movie as this comic has more time).
If we're agreeing or disagree if OotS is that does not really matter here as the conception of the person I replied to is like. I actually defended your story here.


No, I wasn't complaining about OotS, and the Giant just told you that it hasn't been that kind of story for a long time. You seemed to be arguing that it should be more of that kind of story by saying that you felt the stakes aren't high enough and thus it's not exciting. Stories that focus too much on how 'doomed' the main characters are have been done too many times and they're boring now. I can't imagine why you'd want OotS to be more like that.

[WoLong]

The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. :smallconfused: They seem to be on your side.

They were answering someone else who was possibly answering someone else. There is nothing negative in what they said, and nothing negative in about 2/3 of the posts in this thread, either, from what I can see.

'The current main plot is boring' doesn't strike you as negative?

[Bulldog Psion]

'The current main plot is boring' doesn't strike you as negative?

And where did I say that there is nothing negative in the thread?

[WoLong]

And where did I say that there is nothing negative in the thread?

'The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. They seem to be on your side.'

You seem to be confused. The person the Giant was responding to is the one arguing that the main plot is currently boring.

[allenw]

My point why I added the categories in the first place was this:
I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Anything beyond that basic statement can slide.


Fair enough.
Where I remain confused is that I'm not sure how that statement applies to the current discussion. I haven't noticed anyone complaining that the story has an epic conflict. I've only noticed people (not necessarily you) complaining that the story *no longer has* a sufficiently epic conflict to be based around.

To which Rich replied that the "epic conflict" is not, in fact, what the story is meant to be about.

[Winter]

No, I wasn't complaining about OotS

Ah, my bad. You did not say OotS was that.

About the rest, I guess we can constitute there's some sort disagreement on that. Some aspects* simply don't work for me. I'm totally sorry about that, but that is how it is and it is not rooted in some misconception what it is or not or might be or is supposed to be.

* Yes, aspects. Nothing more, nothing less.

[allenw]

If the Maguffin doesn't, in fact, do that, it's called "dramatic irony." Do you get annoyed and flustered because Oedipus can't track down his father's real killer?

But he does! :smalltongue:

[Fish]

Dude. Spoiler alert.

[The Giant]

And where did I say that there is nothing negative in the thread?

Winter is the person who titled the thread. He's the person who's been arguing that the main plot is boring. So yeah, he WAS complaining, just not in that post. WoLong was actually defending me.

As a rule of thumb, anyone who doesn't want me to post on their thread snipping at them about why they're wrong shouldn't post a huge rant about how I'm writing my own story incorrectly and then title it with an inflammatory assertion. I wouldn't normally feel the need to point that out, but given as how there have been about a dozen such threads recently, apparently I do. Yes, everyone has the right to criticize the comic, but that doesn't shield them from the repercussions of voicing that criticism, which can include me snarkily dismissing them in their own thread.


About the rest, I guess we can constitute there's some sort disagreement on that. Some aspects* simply don't work for me. I'm totally sorry about that, but that is how it is and it is not rooted in some misconception what it is or not or might be or is supposed to be.

Then next time, consider wording your issue as, "I don't like this," not, "Rich has made a storytelling mistake." The former is a subjective opinion, the latter is an attempt to mask that opinion as objective fact.

[Angulf]

I've read every post in this thread, even The Giant's (especially the Giant's) and I fail to see the point of this thread.

Open criticism is often well received, but I don't see how this is useful, besides a "I THINK it's boring" rant. It serves no purpose than to justify the taste of the OP, all due respect, and even if the Giant explains to you every detail of the comic, your taste won't change about this current plotline, or anything that comes after it.

The Giant already said what type of story he wants to tell... though I guess he shouldn't need to. He shouldn't need to clarify some things if people could put their egos aside and wait for the author to "unfold the mistery". It's the magic of writing for a long-term, and maybe, if people stopped overthinking every single comic, they could enjoy more the next step.

Sometimes, a reader must learn to respect the author and be patient with the plot the author wants to unfold.

It was the best advice I got when writing theatre plays: if you write what the public wants, you'll never surprise the public, thus killling the theatrical drama. If you just attack the main plot, you miss its sides, and its characters growth: Hamlet takes seven acts to SPOILERS kill his uncle (OH MY DOG!!!). If the play started with Ghost Father saying to Hamlet: "hey dawg, go kill your uncle he'z zooo bad yo" and Hamlet went all gangsta on him with a machine gun, the point of Hamlet's vengeance and how much it drains from him (which is the point of the play) is lost.

The Snarl hasn't revealed itself yet as "how it works", and it isn't supposed to. There's two gates left, prophecies, and a race between a broken Order and two high level villanous parties with very different purposes. If you don't like it well... it's up to you I guess, it's about your taste, and that's the thing.

This comic is not about what you, me, or anyone in this forum wants. It's about what Rich wants. And we gotta respect that above everything that's said about the comic. If I can offer to you some piece of advice it's... be patient, and wait for the rest to unfold.

[Temotei]

*stuff*...be patient, and wait for the rest to unfold.

Well said. My only caveat with your post is that Winter continually posts that he does like the story, just not certain parts of it.

But the rest is perfectly put.

[NerdyKris]

Sometimes, a reader must learn to respect the author and be patient with the plot the author wants to unfold.

And as an addon to that, if they don't like it, they need to be ready to step away and stop reading. The comic is almost 900 strips in and closing on the end point. None of the points being brought up are new. The plot has been like this for seven years. Even a brand new reader must have read the plot up to this point. Complaining that it should change to suit your tastes, 2/3rds to 3/4 of the way in is like the people that still complain about The Simpsons since season eleven. You clearly don't like it, so stop reading/watching it. You don't go to the writers and say "Hey, even though you've clearly been successful for years, I think you should change formulas to cater to my tastes and not the fan base that's currently following your work."

[The Troubadour]

When we attempt to predict the end of the story, we've been predicting how some sort of climactic fight would go. Or something similar.

If Rich is primarily telling a character story, then we need to focus on the character-development crisis point - probably with Roy - and what would that be?

One doesn't necessarily preclude the other. I think it's great when a writer manages to do both - like Terry Pratchett, who is excellent at that sort of thing.

[Carry2]

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season.

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?
Well, I would argue that this is actually a false distinction, insofar as even the stories Winter mentions are generally only found interesting because the overriding central threat (or rather, responses to it) reveals things about the characters. (I won't claim that's entirely logical, but it seems to be how humans are wired.)


The Lord of the Rings tells us things about Gandalf and Boromir because one wants to destroy the ring and the other wants to use it. It tells us something about Aragorn when he opts to rescue Merry and Pippin rather than trying to safeguard the ring-bearer. It tells us something about Sam when, even on the verge of starvation, he carries Frodo up mount doom on his back sooner than deliver the ring alone. (Star Wars, we covered already.)

Now, Winter has been talking about the question of whether 'who gets to the gate first' actually has a big payoff or not. I think this is a little misplaced. Sure, on the 'meta' level, it's possible we-as-audience do know certain things about the Gates and the Snarl (and the fate of the OOTS) that might make us a little more complacent about the outcome. But the Order don't know all that. All they know* is that they have a bunch of senior villains converging on the place with presumably nefarious intent. And several of the OOTS could easily wind up dead as a result, and the OOTS know that. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's stakes enough.

It's just essentially the same stakes that we've had for a couple hundred strips now. None of the emotional parameters have changed, or if they have, they've been ignored, because stopping the BBEG overrides all other concerns. If anything the problem is that the strip of late has been mostly concerned with seizing the McGuffin.

In my, needless and redundant to say, subjective personal opinion.

* Though I am faintly confused by why V didn't mention what Blackwing saw in the rift, unless I missed something.

I sort of agree with the thread title, everything after Miko has been boring, she'll always be the protagonist in my heart. :smallwink:
Damn skippy.

[Psyren]

Could you please drop that? There seems to be a miscommunication what the Type #1 and #2 mean that I introduced (Rich seems to have read something other than I wrote, so we were talking about different things) but I totally don't see the point to dissect that further.
There's only so much ad-hoc made-up categories can communicate and even if we'd be on the same page, the information gain would probably not be worth the characters used to explain it.

My point why I added the categories in the first place was this:
I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Anything beyond that basic statement can slide.
Especially if it'd be about getting into a lengthy and ultimately pointless discussion with the author about where what made-up category might get interpreted in what way, where this or that miscommunication might have happened and what the interpretational-ly scope and meanings could be etc etc etc.

I've read this post four times and I still have no idea what you're trying to say.

[TheYell]

* Though I am faintly confused by why V didn't mention what Blackwing saw in the rift, unless I missed something.

Varsuvius doesn't seem likely to volunteer gtst's total confusion.

[Edhelras]

The current thread is boring.


I mean, unless you're the author yourself, or you're the one directly financing the author (we're not, at least I'm one reader perusing it for free), then what does it matter whatever you think about the story, unless you have positive feelings you'd like to share?
Especially on a forum like this, that people attend because they actually like (to a small or large degree) the product here delivered. What gain could there be in voicing your dissatisfaction, unless you consciously wanted to reduce the fun to other readers, point out weakness that others might not have perceived, or hurt the author's feelings and possibly reduce the drive for contuining the story?
Since the OOT is not a collaborative story where each episode is the product of suggestions and ideas made by the readers (on the contrary, I've got a feeling that the entire campaign has been planned in some detail from a very early point), any thoughts on which direction the comic should take, what you like and what you dislike, is rather useless.
If one doesn't approve of the comic, the most sensible thing is to stay away from it. If you do like it, it's kind to voice your opinion and gratitude to the author.

The most likely end product of threads like this is to cause anger with those who like the comic, finds it funny, realizes it's a gift from the authors to us unnamed NPCs around the globe, and a very anxious that this comic shall proceed and provide us with more fun, excitement, entertainment.

One cannot probitit complaints in an open website, I guess. But each contributor might take a minute reflecting upon: Why am I writing this? Will it be of any use to other than myself? May it hurt anyone, and do I really want to be the one hurting?
I'll try to stick to that myself. But the OP definitely should do so - were I Winter, I'd mail the administrator and say: Hey, this was a bad idea, why don't we just discard the entire thread. Nothing good came out of it, nothing could, nothing will. It's boring.

[Silverionmox]

IMO the current dramatic tension in the comic is quite high... so high, in fact, that the expectations of some people have been raised to gigantic levels, and they will become disappointed when, inevitably, these elevated tensions aren't released.

[sam79]

To be fair, OP has made clear that he likes the comic overall, but certain aspects of the story are not (in his view) succesful. He probably wouldn't have bothered signing up to the forums, let alone contributing to them, if that wasn't true. He's not a troll.

I don't really see a problem with him expressing criticism on the strip on the forums, even given the assumption (that OP makes) that most people will disagree with him, and perhaps not welcome his views. It may not be how I'd choose to spend my time and effort, but there you go; to each their own. The wording of the thread title in particular was...undiplomatic, but a) attracted attention, readers and contrituors to the thread including b) the author himself; to that extent, it was a succesful move.

As for asking whether or not a particular post is 'of use' to anyone; that, I would suggest, is a pretty strict criteria to apply. What possible 'use' could be derived from posting anything on an internet forum devoted to a webcomic? And as for not 'hurting' people; the forum rules largely take care of this, and for the rest this is impossible to predict in advance.

To me personally, parts of this thread, at least, have been interesting; what's more, the author has himself contributed to the deabte, and given us some insight into his creative thinking. So some good has, in my opinion, come out of this thread.

[Blue1005]

Rich you are totally wrong :(

And obviously i am being sarcastic. And slightly hoping he will respond to it cause he has never responded to me :)

That said, the story is awesome, characters are lovable. People, many people, have said tears were shed recently.

I think it is awesome, and cant wait for more.

And, remember we are not paying to view said comics, all we are is spectators into another world from the head of a talented man. If we are bored, I implore you to do your own, and link them. I love web comics and wish they were all as enthralling and exciting waiting for a OOTS.

[Finn Solomon]

Takes a brave man (or lady) to post his or her criticism of a lion in the lion's own den, so credit for that Winter.

[goodyarn]

The wording of the thread title in particular was...undiplomatic, but a) attracted attention, readers and contrituors to the thread including b) the author himself; to that extent, it was a succesful move.

As for asking whether or not a particular post is 'of use' to anyone; that, I would suggest, is a pretty strict criteria to apply. What possible 'use' could be derived from posting anything on an internet forum devoted to a webcomic? And as for not 'hurting' people; the forum rules largely take care of this, and for the rest this is impossible to predict in advance.


Gonna disagree with this strongly. Good stories (as screenwriting guru Robert McKee tells us) are equipment for living, even if it's a web-comic and even if the message is as simple as "Lighten up and enjoy life." Stories are useful to us or we wouldn't keep telling them. Thoughtful discussion of those stories is also useful, in that it helps us to appreciate them.

But the OP was not thoughtful, IMO. Given that OOTS is still being created, and given that we all know that the author frequents this boards and interacts with the posters, and given that, as you say, the title is "undiplomatic" (I would say "obnoxious"), it wouldn't take much thought to realize that this might be hurtful to the Giant. The analogy that springs to mind for me is an audience member shouting "This is boring" in the middle of a concert.

If the OP really does value what the Giant is creating here, he might have been a little more considerate of the Giant's feelings. Because criticism is easy and creation is difficult.



Takes a brave man (or lady) to post his or her criticism of a lion in the lion's own den, so credit for that Winter.

Gonna disagree with this strongly as well. This is the internet. What is the OP risking by posting this? Everyone can be obnoxious on the internet.

[Raimun]

Boring? You must be reading a different comic than I do.

I've never been bored while reading The Order of the Stick. There's always something happening.

The story is about the characters and what they go through. Three dimensional stick figure characters, to be precise.
Sure, the heroes are trying to save the world and that's important for them. Still, the fact that they're trying to save the world is not the reason why I've been reading this comic for about 8 years. There's a lot of stories where the heroes are trying to save the world. What matters is the presentation.

[sam79]

Gonna disagree with this strongly. Good stories (as screenwriting guru Robert McKee tells us) are equipment for living, even if it's a web-comic and even if the message is as simple as "Lighten up and enjoy life." Stories are useful to us or we wouldn't keep telling them. Thoughtful discussion of those stories is also useful, in that it helps us to appreciate them.

If we include in the definition of use "sharing and discussing ideas, stories and messages", then I would argue that it is very important to read things from people who think differently. I mentioned above that, while I disagree with much of the OPs argument, his views prompted a new thought in me; that the Snarl may not exist, and all the characters who talk about it are lying or decieved. This is valuable, even if I don't buy it.


But the OP was not thoughtful, IMO. Given that OOTS is still being created, and given that we all know that the author frequents this boards and interacts with the posters, and given that, as you say, the title is "undiplomatic" (I would say "obnoxious"), it wouldn't take much thought to realize that this might be hurtful to the Giant.

Whether or not the OP was a thoughtful analyst or an obnoxious critic, I think the Giant is probably more thick-skinned than you give him credit for. Sure, it might be hurtful, and I'd prefer an 'I think' at the start of the title; but if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.


The analogy that springs to mind for me is an audience member shouting "This is boring" in the middle of a concert.

The analogy is not quite right. It is more like criticising a concert in the interval; unlike shouting out in the middle of a concert, there's nothing inappropriate about commenting on a forum, and there's no real way that this will interupt our writer's production.


If the OP really does value what the Giant is creating here, he might have been a little more considerate of the Giant's feelings. Because criticism is easy and creation is difficult.

Agreed, and double plus for that last sentiment.

[Edhelras]

Whether or not the OP was a thoughtful analyst or an obnoxious critic, I think the Giant is probably more thick-skinned than you give him credit for. Sure, it might be hurtful, and I'd prefer an 'I think' at the start of the title; but if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

I know nothing about the thickness of the Giant's skin. However, that's one of the most widespread and very problematic features of internet debates: The assumption, on behalf of others, that they have such a thick skin that it doesn't matter what you fling at them. The use of this assumption to defend that one doesn't show that politeness and care that one usually would show in any other communication or relation to other people.

Actually, our history with internet communication during the last decade or so is full with examples that contrary to this belief, people may often have thinner skin than assumed, they're hurt even though they don't necessarily bite back, and they are actually influenced by what other people writes on the internet - even though they rationally may find plenty of reasons why they really shouldn't let themselves be affected by internet rants and offensive speech.

As for your advice to the Giant, it may well be that it's an accurate advice based on experience with the internet. However, I'm not sure I would desire that the Giant should listen to it. At least not if he, to some small degree, would begin to feel that the total amount of rants and second-guessing got heaped too high, and start questioning what's the point of this. I'm sure he wont get there, and that he can truly feel joy from seeing how dedicated his fans are - but my personal wish would be that posters here tried to avoid that problem altogher, by being polite and avoiding needless and pointless and inconsequential rants.
What's wrong with being nice?

[goodyarn]

And as for not 'hurting' people; the forum rules largely take care of this, and for the rest this is impossible to predict in advance

Strongly disagree. It is quite predictable that creating a thread called "The current main-plot is boring" would be hurtful to the creator.



his views prompted a new thought in me; that the Snarl may not exist, and all the characters who talk about it are lying or decieved. This is valuable, even if I don't buy it.

Sure. A thread titled something like "Maybe the Snarl doesn't exist at all" would have been a lot more fun to see than this. Though even then, I think both you and I would have spent more time contemplating what the Giant has up his sleeve, rather than declaring "The Snarl doesn't exist and that is just bad writing" as the OP did.



if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

Strongly disagree. I am certainly not speaking for the Giant, but if I were in his place I would gain great satisfaction from hosting a place where people who enjoy the product I create can discuss it and appreciate it. And I would expect that the people who come to such a place would be considerate of my feelings.


there's no real way that this will interupt our writer's production.

That's quite a leap of logic. I don't think you're in a position to say that. The creative process is a tricky thing.

[Psyren]

If we include in the definition of use "sharing and discussing ideas, stories and messages", then I would argue that it is very important to read things from people who think differently. I mentioned above that, while I disagree with much of the OPs argument, his views prompted a new thought in me; that the Snarl may not exist, and all the characters who talk about it are lying or decieved. This is valuable, even if I don't buy it.

Or it existed before and not now. After all, it's made of threads of reality, and now there's a planet inside the rift where Cthulhu should be; is it perhaps possible that the Snarl has coalesced into an alternate reality? Such as ours? (I'm suddenly getting Fullmetal Alchemist vibes.)



Whether or not the OP was a thoughtful analyst or an obnoxious critic, I think the Giant is probably more thick-skinned than you give him credit for. Sure, it might be hurtful, and I'd prefer an 'I think' at the start of the title; but if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

My hunch is that the only thread that really bothered him was the Crack Pairings thread. Man that thing got squicky fast.

[sam79]

I know nothing about the thickness of the Giant's skin. However, that's one of the most widespread and very problematic features of internet debates: The assumption, on behalf of others, that they have such a thick skin that it doesn't matter what you fling at them. The use of this assumption to defend that one doesn't show that politeness and care that one usually would show in any other communication or relation to other people.

Actually, our history with internet communication during the last decade or so is full with examples that contrary to this belief, people may often have thinner skin than assumed, they're hurt even though they don't necessarily bite back, and they are actually influenced by what other people writes on the internet - even though they rationally may find plenty of reasons why they really shouldn't let themselves be affected by internet rants and offensive speech.

I would not disagree with any of this in general; and I too know nothing about the thickness of the Giant's skin. But we are talking about someone who has set up and maintains an internet forum, not merely someone who uses the internet. In the same way that doctors are not scared of blood and vets aren't afraid of dogs, webcomic artists with open forums can probably take a bit of flak. I may be incorrect in this assumption.

None of this precludes the desirability of respect and politeness in all communication.


Strongly disagree. I am certainly not speaking for the Giant, but if I were in his place I would gain great satisfaction from hosting a place where people who enjoy the product I create can discuss it and appreciate it. And I would expect that the people who come to such a place would be considerate of my feelings.


As for your advice to the Giant, it may well be that it's an accurate advice based on experience with the internet. However, I'm not sure I would desire that the Giant should listen to it. At least not if he, to some small degree, would begin to feel that the total amount of rants and second-guessing got heaped too high, and start questioning what's the point of this.

I hadn't really intended my remarks as advice, and certainly I would not want to presume to advise the Giant. I used 'you' in the impersonal sense, and was speaking hypothetically. I should have used 'one', perhaps.

I would not want to see the forums closed, even if there are a lot of rants and wild second guessing. My own impression is that the forums are a generally polite and enjoyable place to post, and the general tone of the comments rregarding the strip are overwhelmingly positive. I hope the author has this impression too.



What's wrong with being nice?

Nothing; motion seconded!


Strongly disagree. It is quite predictable that creating a thread called "The current main-plot is boring" would be hurtful to the creator.

It is also predicatable that he would find it annoying, rather than hurtful. Or perhaps he would not give a hoot. Or perhaps he would take a dim view of this particular poster, as someone who doesn't really get the point of the story. Point is, until the author himself contributed, we don't really know how he felt or would feel. This does not preclude us from the respnosibility of trying not to hurt our fellow forum-goers, the author included. As I said above, a simple 'I think' at the start of the thread title would have been preferable. Though, admittedly, less eye-catching.


Strongly disagree. I am certainly not speaking for the Giant, but if I were in his place I would gain great satisfaction from hosting a place where people who enjoy the product I create can discuss it and appreciate it. And I would expect that the people who come to such a place would be considerate of my feelings.


That's quite a leap of logic. I don't think you're in a position to say that. The creative process is a tricky thing.

Absolutely right, especially given that the Giant did interupt his writing at least to the extent that he read and posted here. But I think my wider criticism of your concert analogy stands.



My hunch is that the only thread that really bothered him was the Crack Pairings thread. Man that thing got squicky fast.

Its obvious that certain other things bother the Giant; talking about real world politics, talking about the update schedule, talking about religion, etc. These things are banned from the forum. He could ban criticism of his work too.

[EmperorSarda]

Its obvious that certain other things bother the Giant; talking about real world politics, talking about the update schedule, talking about religion, etc. These things are banned from the forum. He could ban criticism of his work too.

I'm not sure how much they bother The Giant so much as prevents flame wars from breaking out by people insulting each others' religion for example.

[Psyren]

Its obvious that certain other things bother the Giant; talking about real world politics, talking about the update schedule, talking about religion, etc. These things are banned from the forum. He could ban criticism of his work too.

Those are less "bothersome" and more "will inevitably erupt into pointless flamewars that derail any thread they're allowed to be brought into regardless of original topic." Though they could also be the former to him, I wouldn't know.

[goodyarn]

Point is, until the author himself contributed, we don't really know how he felt or would feel.

I disagree, with the caveat that perhaps "disrespectful" is a more accurate word here than "hurtful." You may not have been able to predict that the author would have found the original post disrespectful, but I did and I believe most other people would as well.


As I said above, a simple 'I think' at the start of the thread title would have been preferable.

The line about "bad writing" was not well thought out, either.

[Coat]

Well, if you look at it, there are basically only two kinds of stories (at all).


Ones where the stakes for the "surroundings" are high and where it actually is about fighting that threat (and character Development is very enjoyable to read, but it ultimately is a mean to that).
Ones where it actually is not about the stakes, but it actually is about the main character's development (and the Big Threat is actually only a mean to drive the character).


No matter what it is on the surface, if you look below it, it turns out to be one or the other. The stories where it really is a mix are relatively rare, if it is one, the other is very often a side effect, filling or a McGuffin (please note the "scale" does not move the second category into the first).

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season..

Gah! You do know lotr was a book as well as a film, right? LOTR isn't about either of those things. It's about HOW you fight evil. Its told from the point of view of a hobbit, which is, not coincidentally, about the same height as a child. Throughout the story, fighting delays the onset of evil, but only self-sacrifice defeats it.

Webcomics are a new literary form. I wonder which will be looked back on in 100 years time as being significant. Honestly, I think the giant has a chance of making it onto the list: he's actively using the form, and innovating. And I can think of few stories thst constantly surprise more. Consider Dickens.

[sam79]

I'm not sure how much they bother The Giant so much as prevents flame wars from breaking out by people insulting each others' religion for example.


Those are less "bothersome" and more "will inevitably erupt into pointless flamewars that derail any thread they're allowed to be brought into regardless of original topic." Though they could also be the former to him, I wouldn't know.

That's true for real world politics, religion etc. The ban on discussing the update schedule, I would suggest, is in place because it bothers the author, not because it might cause insults and thread derailments in the forum community.


I disagree, with the caveat that perhaps "disrespectful" is a more accurate word here than "hurtful." You may not have been able to predict that the author would have found the original post disrespectful, but I did and I believe most other people would as well.
The line about "bad writing" was not well thought out, either.

Disrespectful is indeed a better term than hurtful, as it makes fewer assumptions about the author's emotional reaction. There is a very fine line between criticising a creative work and directly criticising its creator; it is hard to the former without in some way doing the latter. Re-reading the OP, it seems that the writer does make some attempt to find this balance (not always succesfully); even the 'bad writing' line at the end is caveated, and OP stresses at several points that he likes much of the writing ond the comic overall.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yeah, I want my money back! Wait...

[Mido]

Why does this thread remind me of the story of the Snarl?

[Leirus]

I dunno, I find the current main plot explosive. Maybe it dragged a bit in the Empire of Blood, but when you go back and re-read those strips knowing what came after them they arte ten times better. Look for all the little tips about who Malack really was, and all the tiny set ups scattered in there. (Where did Ian and Geoff go? What is going Quarr to do? etc...).

The only problem I may have with the plot is that there is so much going on that three different comics could be feed with it and I want to read them too. (OotS: Adventures of Lian and O'Chul anyone?).

[Garwain]

First of all, I find it highly annoying that we should -apparently- start every post in which we voice our opinion with a disclaimer. It's clear that "The plot is boring" = "I find the plot boring", especially if the author bothers to explain his argument in detail.


... anyone who doesn't want me to post on their thread snipping at them about why they're wrong shouldn't post a huge rant about how I'm writing my own story incorrectly and then title it with an inflammatory assertion.
Oh come on.... we're all grown-ups here, right? Why would he be wrong if that's how he feels? Please don't: 'he should have added: "for me, ..." or "I think...." or the like to his statements. That's just discussing semantics.

I find the current main plot also boring because I'm dying to know what kind of mystery the Snarl is. Who wins is less of an issue as I'm not necessarily cheering for the OotS. The other characters are interesting as well. If LG or TE wins (or any other faction), fine, but tell me what happens next!

FOR ME the current main plot I THINK is boring IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE because -enjoyable as may be- the current subplots are merely a necessity to bring a bigger play into motion. I don't know what yet, but I know I won't be dissapointed by the end of this chapter.

So I guess, like Winter, I like 95% of the comic, which was enough to buy the books and enjoy them in great lenght. Don't whine if there is critique on the relatively small part.

@Winter Don't worry about the posts that come down on you all 'high and mighty' and scream 'moral superiority' while they fail to address the points that you make. It's ok to voice more than absolute adoration.

[sam79]

First of all, I find it highly annoying that we should -apparently- start every post in which we voice our opinion with a disclaimer. It's clear that "The plot is boring" = "I find the plot boring", especially if the author bothers to explain his argument in detail.



Oh come on.... we're all grown-ups here, right? Why would he be wrong if that's how he feels? Please don't: 'he should have added: "for me, ..." or "I think...." or the like to his statements. That's just discussing semantics.

It is semantics, but semantics are important. Especially in written communication, where it is (for example) often hard to tell if people are being ironic or deadly serious, and it is easier to take offence when none was meant. Obviously "The main plot is boring" is the writer's opinion and not an objective fact; but it comes across as a lot more abrasive than (perhaps) he intended. Writing criticism in a more diplomatic fashion also allows less scope for contributors to, in your words, act all 'high and mighty' and ignore the issues raised; writing brusquely can invite responders to play the man and not the ball. He's even had accusasations of being a troll, which would not have been possible with minimal semantic adjustments.

[theNater]

Why would he be wrong if that's how he feels?
Winter's feelings are Winter's own, but a lot of the first post is based around this claim:

The comic was about preventing the world from getting destroyed by a being of pure chaos.
There is no way for that to be read as an opinion. And it is an incorrect statement, as the Giant explained at length. The short version is:

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist.
This is a story about the Order of the Stick. Reading it solely to learn about the Snarl is likely to be largely unsatisfying, because it isn't about the Snarl. The idea that the story is about the Snarl is in error, and Winter seems to have been clinging to that idea throughout the thread, despite the Giant's explicit statements to the contrary.

[Leirus]

This is a story about the Order of the Stick. Reading it solely to learn about the Snarl is likely to be largely unsatisfying, because it isn't about the Snarl. The idea that the story is about the Snarl is in error, and Winter seems to have been clinging to that idea throughout the thread, despite the Giant's explicit statements to the contrary.

A bit like in a D&D campaign: is all about the characters!

[titan_monarch]

The idea that the story is about the Snarl is in error
It just hit me that perhaps this is the whole point the Giant was trying to show us with #672 - to shake up our idea that "the main plot" is the Snarl at all and place OotS firmly in the "character based" zone precisely by removing (possibly!) the MacGuffin. Still doesn't make the story any less exciting, as far as I'm concerned; as other posters have pointed out a lot of potential drama now lies in the dramatic irony of us (and V) knowing about the planet-in-a-planet while the rest of the characters work on the assumption that the Snarl story is definitely true.

[goodyarn]

There is a very fine line between criticising a creative work and directly criticising its creator;

I don't think that's the problem here at all. I think when you disrespectfully criticize a creative work (as is the case here), you are being disrespectful to the creator, whether or not you are directly criticizing the creator.



Re-reading the OP, it seems that the writer does make some attempt to find this balance (not always succesfully); even the 'bad writing' line at the end is caveated, and OP stresses at several points that he likes much of the writing ond the comic overall.

Big deal. I call that damning with faint praise. Hopefully the OP has learned something from this experience.

I think this thread has already gone on too long. So, this will be my last post here.

[deworde]

It just hit me that perhaps this is the whole point the Giant was trying to show us with #672 - to shake up our idea that "the main plot" is the Snarl at all and place OotS firmly in the "character based" zone precisely by removing (possibly!) the MacGuffin. Still doesn't make the story any less exciting, as far as I'm concerned; as other posters have pointed out a lot of potential drama now lies in the dramatic irony of us (and V) knowing about the planet-in-a-planet while the rest of the characters work on the assumption that the Snarl story is definitely true.

Oh, why must these interesting and insightful posts be bumping this thread's title up the forum? Why? Muhuhuhu. And now I'm part of the problem.

[Angulf]

Oh come on.... we're all grown-ups here, right? Why would he be wrong if that's how he feels? Please don't: 'he should have added: "for me, ..." or "I think...." or the like to his statements. That's just discussing semantics.



In fact this is important. The plot may be boring to ANYONE in fact, but that doesn't mean it IS. When voicing an opinion, you have to voice an opinion, not a fact because, in fact, it's not a fact (what happenned there???).



Don't whine if there is critique on the relatively small part.

Personally, I find it hard to understand the use of the word "whine" in a non-agressive way. Another point in which semantics are important, even for a non-native english speaker as myself. The Giant is defending his work, for a reader its easy to critizice, and an author will defend his work, given the opportunity. It is insulting when someone posts a personal opinion as a fact, EVEN when this is due to a semantics error... it is hard enough to write a long term story which "makes sense".


@Winter Don't worry about the posts that come down on you all 'high and mighty' and scream 'moral superiority' while they fail to address the points that you make. It's ok to voice more than absolute adoration.

I don't think I saw a "high and mighty" post in this thread. It's okay to voice opinions, yes, but if you voice an opinion at a forum and you don't expect people answering to that opinion, then you're not a "freedom-of-speech" lover as much as you think.

If you're expecting to utter an opinion about a comic, knowing that at some point the bloody author of the comic will read it, with an opening title that clearly assumes that your opinion is a fact, and you're not expecting an answer from the guy himself defending his work well... it's dumb.

[pendell]

What purpose does this forum ultimately serve, if not to give the Giant some feedback as to how his comic is being received by his fans?

That's why, I suspect, the Giant doesn't threadlock criticism of his comic regardless of its merit or not. Because while politics, religion, and a million other things are out of forum scope, discussion of the comic IS within forum scope. It is perhaps the only reason for this forum's existence.

I think Winter posted a reaction to the comic, as is his right. I think he also tried very hard to make sure that he was responding to the *comic* , and not attacking the author. Clearly, since the Giant took personal offense, he was not successful. However, the Giant has posted suggestions as to how he can in future post similar critiques and not provoke a similar reaction from the author. So hopefully we all learned something from it.

I have to wonder to what extent criticism, deserved or not, gets to the Giant. I see him sort of in the position of a chef at a five star restaurant doffing his hat to work in the local soup kitchen. And anyone who has worked with homeless people know what a thankless job it is. No one cares that the food they're being served is a cut above institutional prison food, and that they're getting it free. No, one person thinks its too hot, another too cold, another that it's not Mom's distressed pudding, blah blah blah blah blah.

No one complains all the time. Each individual criticism may have some merit. But put enough of it over time, well, it can get to a man. I don't know if it gets to Rich. I know it would get to *me*.

That's why I started a thank-you thread, and I hope I was able to do so without coming across as a yes-man or a suckup. I don't want to be a toady who can't offer honest criticism and silences legitimate opinion. That kind of flattery does no one any favors. I just think we fans can offer encouragment as well as criticism. After all, we ARE getting this for free. So I think the occasional vote of thanks for the dude in the kitchen isn't out of place.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What purpose does this forum ultimately serve, if not to give the Giant some feedback as to how his comic is being received by his fans?

I would argue that the purpose of this forum is not, in fact, to provide Rich with feedback. It exists to serve as a base for the community of people that enjoy the comic. It is well known that having a community with common interest strengthens a webcomic, which is specially important for a webcomic that updates sporadically.

Many webcomic authors stay well away from their forums, in fact, because it is annoying to see people guessing your plot in advance of the big twists, amongst many other reasons, but still maintain the forum.

Grey Wolf

[Leirus]

I do not think the discussion per se is out of limits. The tone, however, could be a bit less harsh. In written communication that stuff matters...

[Fish]

The forum was here first. The comic came later, as a way to direct traffic thither.

To say "the forum exists, therefore Rich wants us to critique his every move" is nonsense. It's like saying "your immune system exists, therefore you want me to sneeze on your food."

[SavageWombat]

Critical debate does strengthen a good work, though. But that's for the readers, not the writers. I know I tend to miss interesting subtext without additional commentary.

[Unisus]

As i see it, criticism is either positive and thus encouraging, or negative in the hope of the things getting better. But i don't see any merit in taking my time to tell what i don't like, adding that i don't think it would change anything or that i even hope it does not change anything.

I have not found yet a reason for the OP other than starting a diskussion like this - which was a sure thing to happen.

I understand, that there are people among us, who would rather see the OotS detsroyed, if this would show them, what exactly the Snarl is. But as the Giant already told us, the Snarl is not what this is all about - it's about the Order of the Stick. And calling him whiny for just setting things right (i.e. telling that he is not telling the story wrong, but that the expectations of some readers about what kind of story OotS is may be wrong) is not only disrespectful in my eyes.

[sam79]

I would argue that the purpose of this forum is not, in fact, to provide Rich with feedback. It exists to serve as a base for the community of people that enjoy the comic. It is well known that having a community with common interest strengthens a webcomic, which is specially important for a webcomic that updates sporadically.

Quite right, but...


Many webcomic authors stay well away from their forums, in fact, because it is annoying to see people guessing your plot in advance of the big twists, amongst many other reasons, but still maintain the forum.

Our author isn't like that though. He not only maitains the forum and visits it, but contributes too. Which suggests, does it not, that one of the purposes of the forum for him is to gauge how the readers are reacting to the work? The commentaries in the printed books also suggest that this is the case; occasionally we read things along the lines of "I knew x was working, because people on the boards were saying y".



I do not think the discussion per se is out of limits. The tone, however, could be a bit less harsh. In written communication that stuff matters...

This, as the author himself made clear earlier in the thread.

[lio45]

Yeah, I want my money back! Wait...

You might have missed it, but FYI, collectively, "getting our money back" would actually mean well over a million US dollars...


(Just pointing it out... not that I'd ever think about it, nor would -- I'm sure -- most of the rest of Rich's fanbase.)

[rodneyAnonymous]

I didn't say "our", I said "my".

[CWH10301964]

The OP speaks well and raises some points. I disagree only because this is an epic tale. And in such a story, you can have more then one thing going on. But to call Elan a 'side' character? He's as much the star as Roy is, as Haley is, as Belkar or Redcloak or any of the recurring cast.
I get the feeling that the OP would like this story tidied up and wrapped up with a bow, in order to move on. I can appreciate that sentiment without agreeing with it--I used to read X-Men in its Claremont days---and those who did know what I speak of-- and sometimes sideplots can be distracting.
But we have Roy and the Blood Oath. We have Elan and his evil family. we have Haley and her rebel father. We have V's guilt over mass murder. We have Redcloak's maniplulation of a BIG BAD. We have so many interesting things going on--even Belkar is three-dimensional since the Mark of Justice incident.
RB clearly has a middle and end in mind, but not for awhile yet--to borrow from Elan, there are two gates left. The race isn't really good until there's only ONE left, and we're not there yet.
The OP doesn't subscribe to the idea, that it isn't the destination, it's the quest--otherwise, we'd get THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

[Fish]

Critical debate does strengthen a good work, though....
Sneezing on your food strengthens your immune system. That doesn't mean it's polite, beneficial and welcome. (And it only conveys the benefits if you eat it. Much like analysis only strengthens a work if the author uses the debate as a basis for changing the story.)

We are not in a position to give a good critical analysis. The work is not done and we only think we know what it's about. We are guessing in the dark at the immediate plot. How can our analysis be complete and constructive? It can't. Analyze, ana-lyze, break up into smaller pieces. We don't have all the pieces.

Next, Roger Ebert will review the middle 20 minutes of "Drive" with Ryan Gosling.

[CWH10301964]

A bit like in a D&D campaign: is all about the characters!

This really says it. In a good campaign, you focus on what matters to the characters lives to make them interesting. A storyline can do no less--870 strips later, and we're still reading--because it's all good--even the heartbreak of Durkon to Durkula. Because we're waiting for what's next.

[titan_monarch]

Oh, why must these interesting and insightful posts be bumping this thread's title up the forum? Why? Muhuhuhu. And now I'm part of the problem.

At the risk of a) sounding really stupid, b) being rather off-topic and c) being frowned upon for bumping this thread even further up (!): can't tell tone from text very well, so I'm not sure if the bolded part was sarcastic or serious? Do tell, I'm always trying to make sure what few posts I make around here do actually count for something. :)

[Scow2]

At the risk of a) sounding really stupid, b) being rather off-topic and c) being frowned upon for bumping this thread even further up (!): can't tell tone from text very well, so I'm not sure if the bolded part was sarcastic or serious? Do tell, I'm always trying to make sure what few posts I make around here do actually count for something. :)

Genuine, as he was referring to the numerous posts that wandered off-topic and explored the nature of the world - such as the meaning of the Snarl being a world.

As far as I can tell... there's plenty of positive in this thread and forum in general. The OP was stating that he felt the main plot was boring compared to what it had been and what he thought it was about.