(3.5) Rogue/Swordsage/Swashbuckler (start-lvl 8)

[Casper13]

Hey guys,

i need your opinion or rather help for my 3.5 (FR) build! :smallsmile:

We will start at lvl 8! (character is planned up to lvl 20) Other guys are Cleric or Ranger, Barbar, Mage.
Class: Rogue 3 / Swordsage 2 / Swashbuckler 3
Race: Human
Stats (32-point-by): Str 12 / Dex 18 (4th and 8th lvl) / Con 14 / Int 14 / Wis 12 / Cha 10

Feats:
lvl 1: TWF (for more attacks, ergo more sneak and crit), Able Learner [human bonus] (for cross class with good skill-stats)
lvl 3: Telling Blow (for high-crit-weapon-sneak-damage)
lvl 6: Daring Outlaw (rogue and swashbuckler-levels stack for sneak-attack, grace and dodge)
for later levels: Craven (broken, multiplies with crit hit), ITWF und GTW (for more attacks, ergo more sneak and crit)
Class Traits:
lvl5 : Penetrating Strike (no Trapsense) (half sneak-damage to sneak-immune, when flanked)
no explanation needed: Sneak-Attack +3d6, Sneak-Attack, Trap Finding, Weapon Finesse, Evasion, Grace +1, Quick to act +1, Discipline Focus (Tiger Claw (WeaponFocus: Kukri)), Dodge +1, Insightful Strike, AC-Bonus

Chosen Stances/Maneuvers for Swordsage: Island of Blades (flank in every position) and Blood in the Water (+1 attack and damage for each sucessful crit-hit).
Distracting Ember (summon fire elemental to flank foe)
Wolf Fang Strike (move and attack with 2 weapons)
Shadow Blade Technique (roll 2 attacks, use lower result for extra 1d6 damage (higher result for better crit-chance))
Fire Riposte (when hit by enemy, counter-touch-attack 4d6 fire damage)
Cloak of Deception (greater invisibility for one round with swift action)
Shadwo Jaunt (teleport 50 ft.)
Mountain Hammer (2d6 damage, overcomes damage reduction and hardness (for breaking doors and other stuff))

Skills: Bluff 10, Disable Device 10, Hide 11, Knowledge (local Waterdeep) 8 [needed for campaign], Listen 11, Move Silently 11, Open Lock 1, Search 11, Sleight of Hand 1, Spot 11, Tumble 9, Use Magic Device 11

Equipment (lvl 8, 27.000 gp):
2x Keen +1 Kukri (Crit-Chance 15-20/*2)
Mithral Shirt +1 (AC 5/max Dex +6)
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
Handcrossbow
2x Dagger, Boot- and Wrist-Sheath
ok and lots of other Stuff...

AC: 22 (10+ 5 Mithral Shirt + 5 Dex + 1 Deflection + 1 AC-Bonus) + Dodge+1 against one chosen enemy.
Full-Attack: 11/11/6 (Bab 6/1, Finesse 5, Focus 1, Weapon 1, TWF -2)
Damage: 1w4+4 (Int 2, Weapon 1, Str 1), Crit *2, Sneak +3d6!
With Crit and Sneak Full-Round: average 68,5 max 100


Sooo, okay... what do you think about my characterbuild? I think it turned out pretty well. :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

Feats:
lvl 1: TWF (for more attacks, ergo more sneak and crit), Able Learner [human bonus] (for cross class with good skill-stats)


I would drop Able Learner for Craven here. You've chosen a very feat-intensive combat style, and I don't see any really compelling reasons you're going to need to spend a bunch of skill points on cross-class skills. If you're going to be spending most of your later levels as a Swashbuckler, they have a very good skill list, and you're a human with an Int of 14. Losing skill points on cross-class skills is not going to be much of a concern.



lvl 3: Telling Blow (for high-crit-weapon-sneak-damage)


Not worth it. Take Travel Devotion here.



lvl 6: Daring Outlaw (rogue and swashbuckler-levels stack for sneak-attack, grace and dodge)


You don't qualify for Daring Outlaw here. You need Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 2 to get all the prereqs. Actually, I would recommend you start with Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 to begin with, and then take your Swordsage levels. This gives you a higher Initiator Level for your manuevers, and lets you pick up Assassin's Stance at ECL 8 for +2d6 Sneak Attack.



Chosen Stances/Maneuvers for Swordsage: Island of Blades (flank in every position) and Blood in the Water (+1 attack and damage for each sucessful crit-hit).


I'm not really a big fan of Blood in the Water. It takes too long to get a decent bonus, and in general I try to avoid any feat/ability that depends on confirming a critical to work, as opposed to taking a feat/ability that works on every attack. If you are just dipping Swordsage for 2 levels, I'd much rather have a 3rd level stance such as Assassin's Stance or Dance of the Spider.



Distracting Ember (summon fire elemental to flank foe)
Wolf Fang Strike (move and attack with 2 weapons)
Shadow Blade Technique (roll 2 attacks, use lower result for extra 1d6 damage (higher result for better crit-chance))
Fire Riposte (when hit by enemy, counter-touch-attack 4d6 fire damage)
Cloak of Deception (greater invisibility for one round with swift action)
Shadwo Jaunt (teleport 50 ft.)
Mountain Hammer (2d6 damage, overcomes damage reduction and hardness (for breaking doors and other stuff))


These all look good, but I would highly recommend replacing either Distracting Ember or Fire Ripose with Sudden Leap.



Knowledge (local Waterdeep) 8 [needed for campaign]


Huh... okay... but why 8 ranks?

As far as weapons/equipment... see if you can get Pitspawned (+1000 GP each, DMGII) on those kukris for +2 to confirm crits. You'll also want two Lesser Crystals of Acid Assault, wand chambers, and a handful of 1st-level swift action wands (Blades of Fire and Instant of Power to start with).

Maybe throw a dastana/chahar-aina on the chain shirt, or upgrade to a darkleaf breastplate. Even better, a hellforged darkleaf masterwork tumbler's breastplate (Races of Stone) can be worn without penalty (ACP = 0) and gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Tumble checks.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Telling Blow is more or less a bad idea for most rogue builds. Your base damage (outside of Craven, if you take it) is usually very low. The difference between hitting with a rapier for +4d6+1 and +5d6+2 is low. Thats also neglecting that you'll have 2 tricks (SA and crits) negated by foes like undead and constructs. Don't focus on the crits, and instead focus on putting yourself into a position to qualify for SA regardless of die roll. Take the luck out of fate's hand. Telling Blow is useful for a very select handful of uses, but investing 1-2 feats into MAYBE getting a crit 25% of the time is not worth it.

My biggest advice. Since you are STARTING at level 8, it seems, put both of those Swordsage levels as LATE in the build as possible. Do Rogue3/Swash3/Swordsage2, or at least Rogue3/Swash1/Swordsage1/Swash+2/Swordsage+1. This makes your IL as high as possible for those levels. In your build, your IL at ECL4 (when you take your first SS level) is 3/2+1 = 2.5, which rounds down to 2, and is basically the same as 1. Your 2nd is at 3.5, which does qualify for 2nd level maneuvers. If you use my first build, your first SS level will have an IL of 6/2+1 = 4, which is high enough to take 2nd level maneuvers, and the 2nd will have an IL of 5 which will allow you to pick up a single 3rd level maneuver. You can use this trick to poach some more useful 2nd level maneuvers and the awesome Assassin's Stance for more SA damage, rather than Blood in the Water (for reasons mentioned above). Assassin's Stance averages +7 damage per hit, right from the start of combat, while BitW takes a few rounds worth of crits to build up to that level of damage. It might eventually overcome the damage from Assassin's Stance, but often times combat doesn't last that long anyway.

[Casper13]

I would drop Able Learner for Craven here. You've chosen a very feat-intensive combat style, and I don't see any really compelling reasons you're going to need to spend a bunch of skill points on cross-class skills. If you're going to be spending most of your later levels as a Swashbuckler, they have a very good skill list, and you're a human with an Int of 14. Losing skill points on cross-class skills is not going to be much of a concern.



Not worth it. Take Travel Devotion here.

Ok i find Able Learner very important! I'm the so-called skillmonkey in my group and i need my skills to be able for non-fighting-rpg. OK Craven is planned for lvl 9, i try to take it in further levels...it will raise my damage-output a lot. I took another look in the swashbucker-skill-list, i really miss the skills i want to max out.
Ok Travel Devotion sounds nice, but once per day for 10 rounds...is that worst a feat?!



You don't qualify for Daring Outlaw here. You need Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 2 to get all the prereqs. Actually, I would recommend you start with Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 to begin with, and then take your Swordsage levels. This gives you a higher Initiator Level for your manuevers, and lets you pick up Assassin's Stance at ECL 8 for +2d6 Sneak Attack.

Daring Outlaw Prerequisite: Grace +1, sneak attack +2d6! I take it with lvl 6, got Rogue 3 (=2d6 sneak), got Swashbuckler 2 (=Grace +1)?! I dont get it, wheres my failure?



I'm not really a big fan of Blood in the Water. It takes too long to get a decent bonus, and in general I try to avoid any feat/ability that depends on confirming a critical to work, as opposed to taking a feat/ability that works on every attack. If you are just dipping Swordsage for 2 levels, I'd much rather have a 3rd level stance such as Assassin's Stance or Dance of the Spider.
Ok, i just had Assassins Stance..but i changed it, like the fluff of high-crit-rogue, but now i think AS is much better. For IL, i got 2 lvl Swordsage and 6/2 other level, so i got IL 5 and can get AS... or am i wrong with this?



These all look good, but I would highly recommend replacing either Distracting Ember or Fire Ripose with Sudden Leap.

Ok i can just ready 4 Maneuvers either. Eventually i can change that later, after a few fights, have to ask my GM. Need experience in fighting with my character.



Huh... okay... but why 8 ranks?

As far as weapons/equipment... see if you can get Pitspawned (+1000 GP each, DMGII) on those kukris for +2 to confirm crits. You'll also want two Lesser Crystals of Acid Assault, wand chambers, and a handful of 1st-level swift action wands (Blades of Fire and Instant of Power to start with).

Maybe throw a dastana/chahar-aina on the chain shirt, or upgrade to a darkleaf breastplate. Even better, a hellforged darkleaf masterwork tumbler's breastplate (Races of Stone) can be worn without penalty (ACP = 0) and gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Tumble checks.
Ok 8 ranks, i dont know, have to clarify with GM who high i need it.
Crystal of Energy Assault is on my to-buy-list! i never heard about wand chambers, thx sounds nice. Pitspawned, hellforged will be refused by GM!


Yea, Telling Blow is more or less a bad idea for most rogue builds. Your base damage (outside of Craven, if you take it) is usually very low. The difference between hitting with a rapier for +4d6+1 and +5d6+2 is low. Thats also neglecting that you'll have 2 tricks (SA and crits) negated by foes like undead and constructs. Don't focus on the crits, and instead focus on putting yourself into a position to qualify for SA regardless of die roll. Take the luck out of fate's hand. Telling Blow is useful for a very select handful of uses, but investing 1-2 feats into MAYBE getting a crit 25% of the time is not worth it.
Hm ok, Telling Blow was more a fluff-decision. But what is instead a really good feat for an high-crit-rogue?! What about Deadly Precision, because of lots of SA-dice? Staggering strike? Or Craven on lvl 3, but what else than on lvl 9? Travel Devotion, what Darrin mentioned?



My biggest advice. Since you are STARTING at level 8, it seems, put both of those Swordsage levels as LATE in the build as possible. Do Rogue3/Swash3/Swordsage2, or at least Rogue3/Swash1/Swordsage1/Swash+2/Swordsage+1. This makes your IL as high as possible for those levels. In your build, your IL at ECL4 (when you take your first SS level) is 3/2+1 = 2.5, which rounds down to 2, and is basically the same as 1. Your 2nd is at 3.5, which does qualify for 2nd level maneuvers. If you use my first build, your first SS level will have an IL of 6/2+1 = 4, which is high enough to take 2nd level maneuvers, and the 2nd will have an IL of 5 which will allow you to pick up a single 3rd level maneuver. You can use this trick to poach some more useful 2nd level maneuvers and the awesome Assassin's Stance for more SA damage, rather than Blood in the Water (for reasons mentioned above). Assassin's Stance averages +7 damage per hit, right from the start of combat, while BitW takes a few rounds worth of crits to build up to that level of damage. It might eventually overcome the damage from Assassin's Stance, but often times combat doesn't last that long anyway.
Ok i will change BitW to AS. Do i qualify for it? look for my calculation above. Is there a difference in taking Rog 3 / Swash 3 / Sword 2 to my build, when i start at lvl 8?

PS: sorry for my engish, not my native language!

[RFLS]

See if you can get your DM to allow the feat Kung Fu Genius to apply to Swordsage. It'd make you based entirely on Int.

[Darrin]

Ok i find Able Learner very important! I'm the so-called skillmonkey in my group and i need my skills to be able for non-fighting-rpg. OK Craven is planned for lvl 9, i try to take it in further levels...it will raise my damage-output a lot. I took another look in the swashbucker-skill-list, i really miss the skills i want to max out.


Sounds like "Candy Shop Syndrome": you're in a candy shop and you want to take *EVERYTHING* that looks good. A TWF/Daring Outlaw build is generally designed to be a melee frontliner first, and a skillmonkey/trapfinder second. The only two skills you really need as cross-class are Knowledge: Waterdeep (which I asked about... 8 ranks seems kinda high for a fluff reason), and UMD, which is undeniably an awesome skill to max out, but it's my opinion that you have enough skill points to max that out cross-class and devote that feat slot to something more combat-focused. If the general consensus goes against me and you think the role of skillmonkey/party face/trapfinder is important enough, then I could be persuaded otherwise.



Ok Travel Devotion sounds nice, but once per day for 10 rounds...is that worst a feat?!


You'll get a lot more use out of it than Telling Blow. Yes, 1/day isn't ideal, you want at least 3/day, but you can add more uses of Travel Devotion later on in the build, if need be. (There are also some tricks to get Turn Undead into the build, if you need another way to activate Travel Devotion).



Daring Outlaw Prerequisite: Grace +1, sneak attack +2d6! I take it with lvl 6, got Rogue 3 (=2d6 sneak), got Swashbuckler 2 (=Grace +1)?! I dont get it, wheres my failure?


Rogue 3/Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler 1 (ECL 6) doesn't have Grace +1 yet. I can't tell if that's the order you were going to take those classes, but that's what you listed in the original post.



Ok, i just had Assassins Stance..but i changed it, like the fluff of high-crit-rogue, but now i think AS is much better.


You're going to get +2d6 damage from Assassin's Stance a lot more often than you're going to have a bonus from Blood in the Water.



For IL, i got 2 lvl Swordsage and 6/2 other level, so i got IL 5 and can get AS... or am i wrong with this?


If you take Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 first, yes, your first Swordsage level has IL = 4, and then your second Swordsage level has IL = 5.



Ok 8 ranks, i dont know, have to clarify with GM who high i need it.
Crystal of Energy Assault is on my to-buy-list! i never heard about wand chambers, thx sounds nice. Pitspawned, hellforged will be refused by GM!


Your DM may not allow wand chambers in a weapon as small as a kukri, but by RAW it should work. This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12921450&postcount=8) has some suggestions on some good 1st-level wands to keep handy.




Hm ok, Telling Blow was more a fluff-decision. But what is instead a really good feat for an high-crit-rogue?! What about Deadly Precision, because of lots of SA-dice?


No. The odds of Deadly Precision helping all that much are actually pretty low. You can also get the same ability from Bracers of Murder (8000 GP, Drow of the Underdark).



Staggering strike? Or Craven on lvl 3, but what else than on lvl 9? Travel Devotion, what Darrin mentioned?


I would recommend Craven, Staggering Strike, and then more Travel Devotion, in that order.



Ok i will change BitW to AS. Do i qualify for it? look for my calculation above. Is there a difference in taking Rog 3 / Swash 3 / Sword 2 to my build, when i start at lvl 8?


The only difference is your Initiator Level when you take your Swordsage levels.

[ddude987]

I would recommend 4 rogue/ 3 swash / 1 unarmed sword sage for the beginning and then pick up snap kick for another attack on your full attack. From experience with the build level 4 rogue is really nice and you don't need more than one swordsage.