Crafting times. REALLY?

[panaikhan]

OK. So my AH/MT character got his hands on a Stone Golem Manual.
According to the DMG, all I have to do is craft the body, and the book does the rest.

BUT... the MM1 states the body weighs 3000lbs, and is worth 5000gp.

By standard crafting rules, crafting something worth 5000gp will take my character an average of 140 weeks.
1) have I seriously messed up my maths?
2) Are there any reasonable shortcuts?

Any information will be gratefully received.

[Ashtagon]

If its any consolation, by RAW crafting a longbow (75gp) can be done by a competent journeyman in 4 days. Realistically, it takes six months to a year.

You can voluntarily add to the DC needed, which will speed things up.

Assuming a level 14 PC...

Skill ranks +18, Intelligence +4. apprentice (aid another) +2 = +24 modifier

Adding to DC means you are aiming for DC 34 and "taking 10" means 43 1/4 weeks. Still almost a year of downtime.

[panaikhan]

I'm not talking about creating the item. That takes didley, as the Golem Manual does everything.

I'm talking about Crafting the stone body (which is the only thing the book doesn't provide)

Even if you enchant a sword, you still have to make the sword first, THEN craft it into a magical item (which is where the 1000gp / day comes in)

EDIT - the post I was replying to, seems to have disappeared...

[Telonius]

Yes, time required for crafting checks is one of the most annoying things about building a crafty-ish character. You can speed up the craft checks somewhat by increasing the DC, but it still only covers a fraction of the time.

The quickest way to craft a high-GP mundane item is to use the craft skill in combination with the Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) spell. Since your Stone Golem will be made out of a mineral, you can get 1 cubic foot per level out of each casting.

EDIT: Hmm ... double-checking that, I suppose the exact wording might be a bit ambiguous. If you're using "Animal/vegetable/mineral," stone would be mineral. But if you're using the actual definition of mineral, stone wouldn't be one (since it's made of several different minerals with no set composition). Check with your DM on it.

[panaikhan]

I had thought about that. Fabricate, Stone Shape, etc etc but the golem body has to be made out of a single block of stone, not several lumps cemented together.

[hamishspence]

If you've already cut the block out, you can shape a segment of the block, with it still being part of the main block.

[panaikhan]

I'm sure stone shape has a maximum weight thing going for it.
I don't think my DM is going to swallow "I'm casting Stone Shape repeatedly, and sinse I'm only affecting the surface inch of the block (which is within the weight limit) I can make it whatever shape I like"

[Andvare]

I'm not talking about creating the item. That takes didley, as the Golem Manual does everything.

I'm talking about Crafting the stone body (which is the only thing the book doesn't provide)

Even if you enchant a sword, you still have to make the sword first, THEN craft it into a magical item (which is where the 1000gp / day comes in)

EDIT - the post I was replying to, seems to have disappeared...

Yeah, I realized that after replying, therefore I deleted my post.

Remember that you can get help.
Convince your DM to have 50 people help you, and you should get a +100*DC in silver extra work done each week. A more reasonable number of 5 should also do wonders.

Does it specifically state that you have to make it yourself?

[nedz]

Is Flesh to Stone, on a suitably sized creature, any use here ?

[panaikhan]

I don't have my books to hand.
I'm sure it says the body must be crafted from a single block, DC17, weight 3000gp, value 5000gp. It doesn't say who has to make it, only that the spells are cast from the golem manual, and scattering the book's ashes finally animate the golem.

Oh. Other questiins while I think about it - is there 3.5 RAW for making modifications to golems? such as hollowing them out to make them 'power armour' or such? Or am I thinking of Pathfinder?

[panaikhan]

Is Flesh to Stone, on a suitably sized creature, any use here ?

It could be, if it gave values for people turned into statues. Not sure what would happen if you cast Break Enchantment on the body afterwards though.

[Slipperychicken]

Just ask your DM about using the magic item craft times (1,000gp= 1 day) for it, because golems are arguably magical by RAI. If he insists on making your PC spend years on one golem, slap him.

[Telonius]

Possibly super-cheesy way to get around it:

1. Ask your DM how much someone would pay for a large golem-shaped sculpture made out of hamburger. This will probably not be much more than its cost in GP. (Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#foodDrinkAndLodging), a 1/2 lb chunk of meat is 3 silver).
2. Get 10 cubic feet of hamburger.
3. Use a Craft(Sculpting) check on it to make a sculpture. Since the GP cost is significantly less, you'll spend much less time crafting it. Cast Gentle Repose if necessary to prevent decay.
4. Cast Animate Objects on the Large hamburger sculpture. (It counts as 4 small creatures for purposes of the spell). You now have an animated hamburger sculpture, which is a creature.
5. Cast Flesh to Stone. Since the hamburger sculpture is a creature, it is a valid target of the spell. The effect is instantaneous. You briefly have an animated statue.
6. Wait for the Animate Objects spell to expire. The statue is no longer animated. Since the Flesh to Stone effect is instantaneous, it doesn't revert to its original form.
7. You now have a perfectly golem-shaped piece of stone. The sheer ridiculousness of its creation makes it a collector's item, easily worth 5,000gp to anyone with a sense of humor.

[Andvare]

Then buy the darn thing, or buy a nearly completed one, and complete it yourself.
As long as it weights 3000lbs, it is good, because you can always pay more than it is worth. To illustrate:
"That oddly shaped rock you got there? Does it weigh in at around 3000lbs? Yeah? How much? 50 gp? How much for this land around it? 4000? Okay, how about I give you 5000 gp for the rock, and 1 gp for the land?"
I did that once, with some precious stones I needed for some spells. My DM was not amused.

BTW, the crafting rules are really stupid. It is actually faster to do a difficult job, than an easy one. So if this golem is the finest piece of stone carving craftsmanship since the David, it will go faster than if it looks like some legos thrown together by a five year old.

[Andvare]

Possibly super-cheesy way to get around it:

1. Ask your DM how much someone would pay for a large golem-shaped sculpture made out of hamburger. This will probably not be much more than its cost in GP. (Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#foodDrinkAndLodging), a 1/2 lb chunk of meat is 3 silver).
2. Get 10 cubic feet of hamburger.
3. Use a Craft(Sculpting) check on it to make a sculpture. Since the GP cost is significantly less, you'll spend much less time crafting it.
4. Cast Animate Objects on the Large hamburger sculpture. (It counts as 4 small creatures for purposes of the spell). You now have an animated hamburger sculpture, which is a creature.
5. Cast Flesh to Stone. Since the hamburger sculpture is a creature, it is a valid target of the spell. The effect is instantaneous. You briefly have an animated statue.
6. Wait for the Animate Objects spell to expire. The statue is no longer animated. Since the Flesh to Stone effect is instantaneous, it doesn't revert to its original form.
7. You now have a perfectly golem-shaped piece of stone. The sheer ridiculousness of its creation makes it a collector's item, easily worth 5,000gp to anyone with a sense of humor.

Or sell it to your team mate for the material cost, then buy it back for 5000gp, and presto, it is worth 5000gp.

[Deophaun]

Well, stone shape doesn't work. It can only make crude items, which I doubt your DM would consider the golem's body to be. Fabricate definitely works.

Now if you want conventional, hire workers. You're dealing with a large sculpture, so you can probably get 10-20 assistants working on it at a time (10 without scaffolding, 20 with). Additionally, as I think you only craft for 8 hours a day, you can have three teams working 8 hour shifts. Assuming you have a supply or artisans at hand, you could get the body done in a couple months without much trouble.

There's also the spell unseen crafter in one of the Eberron books, which makes a temporary artisan with skills based on your ranks and Int modifier.


BTW, the crafting rules are really stupid. It is actually faster to do a difficult job, than an easy one.
Not true. As you can add an arbitrary number of +10s to the DC, the easy job finishes faster. However, you do an equal value of easy jobs for a given hard job.

[Venger]

Well, stone shape doesn't work. It can only make crude items, which I doubt your DM would consider the golem's body to be. Fabricate definitely works.

Now if you want conventional, hire workers. You're dealing with a large sculpture, so you can probably get 10-20 assistants working on it at a time (10 without scaffolding, 20 with). Additionally, as I think you only craft for 8 hours a day, you can have three teams working 8 hour shifts. Assuming you have a supply or artisans at hand, you could get the body done in a couple months without much trouble.

There's also the spell unseen crafter in one of the Eberron books, which makes a temporary artisan with skills based on your ranks and Int modifier.


Not true. As you can add an arbitrary number of +10s to the DC, the easy job finishes faster. However, you do an equal value of easy jobs for a given hard job.
don't forget about the dedicated wright: a small, very cute little golem that will craft stuff for you using your bonuses. all you need to do is get stuff started and then you can pass it on to him.

[ericgrau]

Stone shape can't accomplish fine detail. Flesh to stone is unlikely to make granite. The material component suggests liquid cement hardening into stone.

I suggest finding an existing granite statue, or commissioning multiple builders to work on it at the same time. It is large enough, after all. You could get at least 4 around it comfortably, if not 8.

Arguably it might need a more special body than a statue, but with a craft DC of only 17 I'd think it only needs a general shape and magic takes care of the rest. I mean that isn't even masterwork quality. It could look realistic and have some detail, but otherwise it's nothing special.

[Deophaun]

don't forget about the dedicated wright: a small, very cute little golem that will craft stuff for you using your bonuses. all you need to do is get stuff started and then you can pass it on to him.
I think all the dedicate wright does is help with magical crafting, not mundane. But yes, if you do craft magical items with any regularity, a dedicated wright is unbelievably handy.

[Alienist]

According to my ranks in google-fu: 3 cubic feet of granite weighs 500 pounds. Stone Golem - 2000 pounds (in the SRD, are you misreading the MM1?) So 12 cubic feet.
Fabricate does 1 cubic foot per caster level. According to the Golem Manual - The caster may treat his level as 3 higher for the purpose of crafting the golem.

Okay, so put all that together, and a Fabricate from a ninth level wizard would be enough. If the DM rules that the Golem weighs 3,000 pounds instead of the weight listed on the SRD, then you need to be six levels higher, or level 15 in order to Fabricate it. Stone Shape gets you slightly more volume, but says that anything complicated has a 30% chance of failure...

----

Double checked with the MM1 - 2,000 pounds. So where's the discrepancy ... oh, I see it now. It says that you have to chisel it out of the stone block weighing 3,000 pounds (e.g. 1,000 pounds gets chipped away). Well, one way I can see is just to take the 3,000 pounds as raw input to the Fabricate. You still spend the same amount, but the time is somewhat improved.

The second way is that, by RAW, it has to be chiselled out. So even if you had access to a lightsabre or a high tech C&C machine, neither of those would count, it would have to be a literal chisel (and this is why RAW is teh stupids).

Talk to your DM.

Basically present him with the two options, and then lay it out, if he doesn't want you to have it, then insist on a literal chisel. If he's okay with you having it, then let Fabricate do the thing it does so very well.

Now, if he secretly admits that he doesn't want you to have it, then thats okay. You have two choices. (1) Accept the DMs wishes gracefully.

BWAHAHAHAHA

*wipes tears from eyes*

Okay, this is the playground. We don't do "accept what the DM says gracefully" around here.

(2) Pump that DC through the roof.

First, make it a masterwork Golem. Ding! DC goes to 20. Huzzah! Next up, the sculpting. Technically speaking, it's kind of ambiguous, but lets treat 5,000gp as your target. So 50,000 sp.

Now, we want to bump the DC up good and proper, so let's just arbitrarily jack it up to 50 (by taking the 'make it faster' modifier of +10 three times). Obviously, you need to be able to hit that DC reliably, so we'll assume that you're taking 10.

Now we need another 40. Assume 10 from Int and ranks.
Now we need another 30.

Magecraft: +5 competence bonus
Masterwork tools: +2 circumstance bonus
Greater Heroism: +4 morale bonus

Now we need another 19. If you're level 15; then Moment of Prescience gives you +15 insight bonus

Now we need another 4. Let's say you have a couple of apprentices help you, cheesing aid another or something like that.

Ta da! We're there.

DC 50, roll 50 = 2,500sp per week. We're done in 20 weeks.

Okay, so what happens if we can squeeze out another 10 points from somewhere? Let's say a +15 ladder of sculpting (competence bonuses don't stack, so we have to also replace the +5 we got earlier). It takes three weeks to make that wondrous item.

Now we can crank the DC up to 60, and the roll up to 60 as well.

60 x 60 = 3600

And now it takes us 14 weeks, plus 3 weeks to make the wondrous item. I suspect as far as that goes, we're pretty close to diminishing returns already. Also, if you're not level 15 already, then it kind of sucks.

-----

But what if there was a spell not entirely unlike Unseen Servant, which was designed for crafting instead?

What if ... we turned to page 191 of Races of Eberron?

Now Unseen Crafter is really sucky, because it can only do your int bonus plus your ranks in the skill. I'm going to infer from what you wrote earlier that we're talking about a 21 here. And I'm going to just run with a DC of 17. Unseen Crafter lasts for 1 day per level. Assuming that you can pump your caster level up a little bit to 15, and you devote 4 second level spell slots every day to the project, you could have SIXTY Unseen Crafters going at a single time.

Now each one of them is only doing 357 silver worth of crafting for you per week. But there are 60 of them. Which is a total of 21420sp of crafting per week. At that rate, it would take you about 16 days to finish ... without you personally lifting a finger.*

*Technically the spell has Verbal and Somatic components, so you may have to actually lift a finger. Sorry about that.

Based on the spell description, there is a plausible argument to be made that they get a +10 bonus for working on constructs. If you cheesed the DC up to 20 for masterwork, and then slapped on a +10 for working faster, the DC would go to 30, and their rolls to 31.

I love it when a plan comes together. That is 55,800sp of crafting. Per week.

Now, you may think that's a bit silly. I might agree. In fact, because there's some ramp-up time to get all 60 going at once, it takes a bit longer (waves hand) call it ... uh ... two weeks.

BUT here's the bad news.

By RAW, the material cost (5,000gp in this case) is only ONE THIRD of the cost of the crafting.

You don't need 50,000sp worth of crafting.

You need 150,000sp. Ooops.

Now, when we look at that, all of a sudden the 'Sorcerer's Apprentice' style of crafting doesn't seem so unreasonable. No?

[ericgrau]

A 2,000 lb. stone golem is chiseled from a single 3,000 lb. block of stone. So 18 cubic feet for fabricate's source material.

[Andvare]

Not true. As you can add an arbitrary number of +10s to the DC, the easy job finishes faster. However, you do an equal value of easy jobs for a given hard job.

The length of time is from the cost of the item only, not the difficulty of the job.
The amount of progress depends on your skill (plus whatever bonuses) and the DC. The higher DC the more progress.

Let us assume that a door maker wants to make two doors, one huge granite one, with carvings and everything, and one small solid gold one for his daughters doll house.
The granite one is more complex, and granite is harder to work with than gold, so the DC for this project is higher, while the gold one is simple and easier to make, so the DC is lower.
They cost the same though.
If this door maker doesn't push himself, thus getting a higher DC, the granite door finish first.
Now the door maker is quite good as his job, so he can push himself, but he will never be able to make to gold door faster than the granite door (unless he decides to take it easy on the granite one, which he wont, being a professional craftsman), because if he can get a higher DC on the gold door, than on the base DC of the granite door, then he can push that latter DC up as well.

That makes absolutely no sense.

[Deepbluediver]

The crafting rules are frelling borked. Maybe not as borked as some other stuff in the game, but still borked. I fully support modifying them as needed to not clash with common sense and/or fit with the time available in-game.
Trying to tie EVERYTHING into a single standard (such as GP or weight) can quickly lead to some odd situations, such as a delicate pocket watch and a massive ship requiring similar amounts of time, energy, and resources from the player.


If you're open to alternative options, do you need to carve the statue yourself? Does the spell allow for just buying/finding any old stone statue of appropriate proportion and using that?

[mjlush]

I'm sure stone shape has a maximum weight thing going for it.
I don't think my DM is going to swallow "I'm casting Stone Shape repeatedly, and sinse I'm only affecting the surface inch of the block (which is within the weight limit) I can make it whatever shape I like"

Cast rock to mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) on a granite outcrop, pour the mud into a golem shaped mold cast dispel magic which "restores its substance—but not necessarily its form". That gives you 22000 cubic feet to play with.

[Deepbluediver]

...a golem shaped mold cast...

and how long does it take to craft THAT? :smalltongue:

[hoverfrog]

and how long does it take to craft THAT? :smalltongue:Summon an earth elemental, get it to lie in mud and then cast mud to rock on it. When the spell ends you'll be left with an earth elemental shaped mould...assuming the DM interprets the spell like that.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

My typical solution is 4990 gp worth of materials and 10 gp worth of crafting.

[Studoku]

Many cities have statues of kings/war heroes/etc. Steal one of them.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Summon an earth elemental, get it to lie in mud and then cast mud to rock on it. When the spell ends you'll be left with an earth elemental shaped mould...assuming the DM interprets the spell like that.

That is as brilliant as it is deserving of physical violence. You still MUST chisel it by RAW, butbyou could just hires some people to out on finishing touches for two weeks.

[Deox]

I wonder if Disintegration Finesse would be applicable here?

[Vaz]

Talking of stupid Crafting times, have a look at the Sndshaper making 1 ft cubes as an Immediatet action 1 minute before he made the decision to craft them.

[Rubik]

If you've already cut the block out, you can shape a segment of the block, with it still being part of the main block.You can do that with Psionic Fabricate, since it specifies that the object you affect is your target. Just affect the square footage you need.

Depending on the size of the golem, you may or may not be able to do that with the PHB Fabricate, because whatever you affect is a material component (which is destroyed when you cast the spell), and you're limited on how much you can create with it.

[Deophaun]

The length of time is from the cost of the item only, not the difficulty of the job.
It always brightens my day when someone shows that they've read what I wrote by quoting it and repeating what it said as though they were trying to argue with me.

[Alienist]

Since everyone is ignoring the wall of text (not that I blame them).

The answer to the probem (if Fabricate is disallowed) is a second level spell called Unseen Crafter.

[Deophaun]

Since everyone is ignoring the wall of text (not that I blame them).

The answer to the probem (if Fabricate is disallowed) is a second level spell called Unseen Crafter.
You do know you were swordsaged on that, right?

[Ashtagon]

Talking of stupid Crafting times, have a look at the Sndshaper making 1 ft cubes as an Immediatet action 1 minute before he made the decision to craft them.

One of the best sandshaper features lets them craft something by spending half an hour. That something will then last a matter of minutes before fading. Sandshapers ride the short bus when it comes to crafting classes.

[Unusual Muse]

Many cities have statues of kings/war heroes/etc. Steal one of them.

I like this! Not only does it get you around the crafting time, but it's fun to watch a local hero come back to life and go Godzilla on everything!

[Vaz]

Psh, please.

" Each attempt to create an item requires a number of minutes equal to the DC."

" 1 cu. ft. or less —5 (DC)"

Practise a bit of geometry to work out the volume of a mm thin hollow cube to block line of effect.

As making it happened 5 minutes prior to making the decision to make it, you have now blocked line of effect, and as you cannot be seen, you cannot be targetted, and the spell fails. Wear a hard hat to prevent Dice mortaring.

[Slipperychicken]

I like this! Not only does it get you around the crafting time, but it's fun to watch a local hero come back to life and go Godzilla on everything!

Bonus points if a giant monster with a breath weapon happens to be attacking the city at the same time, and begins fighting the construct over turf. :smallbiggrin:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

From the SRD: The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp

That means the stone you start with has to be worth 5000gp the end value of the statue is irrelevent so the crafting could be very crude taking away more value in discarded material than it added in craftsmanship. Yes, it requires a DC 17 check but that could be a decent craftsman spending a single afternoon chiseling the block into a vaguely human shape.

[herrhauptmann]

Or sell it to your team mate for the material cost, then buy it back for 5000gp, and presto, it is worth 5000gp.
The value is in gold, See first panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html)

Is Flesh to Stone, on a suitably sized creature, any use here ?
If you're going off the value of the resulting statue?
It'd probably have to be a nude woman to be of any value. Or I guess you could decorate it with some gold leaf or something afterwards to raise the cost.

[Unusual Muse]

The value is in gold, See first panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html)

If you're going off the value of the resulting statue?
It'd probably have to be a nude woman to be of any value. Or I guess you could decorate it with some gold leaf or something afterwards to raise the cost.

A nude, gold-plated woman rampaging through the village would be AWESOME!!

[nedz]

If you're going off the value of the resulting statue?
It'd probably have to be a nude woman to be of any value. Or I guess you could decorate it with some gold leaf or something afterwards to raise the cost.

Michaelangelo would like a word.

[Rubik]

Michaelangelo would like a word.Yes. Nude men are all the rage these days.

[Ksheep]

Yes. Nude men are all the rage these days.

Not all of his stuff was nude, and not all of them were men. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Michelangelo%27s_Pieta_5450_cropncleaned_edit.jpg)

[Rubik]

Not all of his stuff was nude, and not all of them were men.Which is a real pity.

Also, EW! RELIGION! GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!

[Pickford]

I don't have my books to hand.
I'm sure it says the body must be crafted from a single block, DC17, weight 3000gp, value 5000gp. It doesn't say who has to make it, only that the spells are cast from the golem manual, and scattering the book's ashes finally animate the golem.

Oh. Other questiins while I think about it - is there 3.5 RAW for making modifications to golems? such as hollowing them out to make them 'power armour' or such? Or am I thinking of Pathfinder?

Effigies can be improved (see: Complete Arcane) I think it's a class feature of the Effigy Master.

[hoverfrog]

panaikhan, what are you going to do with the golem when you're done anyway? Guard, adventuring companion and bodyguard, impressive decoration for your castle, giant doorman? The crafting can practically me speeded up using magic and additional workers or outsourced to the local dwarves while you go adventuring but when you're done what do you want the golem to look like. Form follow function after all.

[panaikhan]

What to do with the Golem...

If I can 'hollow out' the inside and wear it like power armour, that is exactly what I will do.
If I can't, I will craft it to resemble a huge stone chair/throne/popemobile (I've already discussed this with my GM) to carry the character around in luxury.

The thing will be my personal bodyguard and transport, whatever happens.
It's a pity I can't somehow transfer the spirit of my Arcane Companion to it while I'm at it.

Hmm.....

~looks up the section on "intelligent items"~

[panaikhan]

Some calculations to share.

According to Wiki, 3000lb of Granite occupies approx. 18 cu ft
My AH/MT has a caster level of 12, so I can 'shrink' up to 24 cu ft of material and 'fabricate' 12 cu ft.
So.
Make an 18cu ft statue from something REALLY cheap
Shrink Item (turning it into cloth is optional. so no.)
Fabricate into Granite.
Dispell the shrink.
The DMG states that 3000lb of granite is worth 5000gp, so that is satisfied.
Chisel my initials into it.

Ta-Da!

[Alienist]

Some calculations to share.

According to Wiki, 3000lb of Granite occupies approx. 18 cu ft
My AH/MT has a caster level of 12, so I can 'shrink' up to 24 cu ft of material and 'fabricate' 12 cu ft.
So.
Make an 18cu ft statue from something REALLY cheap
Shrink Item (turning it into cloth is optional. so no.)
Fabricate into Granite.
Dispell the shrink.
The DMG states that 3000lb of granite is worth 5000gp, so that is satisfied.
Chisel my initials into it.

Ta-Da!

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that fabricate changes one substance into another.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The spell Servant Horde (Spell Compendium) creates 2d6+CL unseen servants. None of these servants can make the Craft check themselves (they can't complete a skill with a DC higher than 10), but they can pass the Aid Another check (DC10). At CL 8, you'd get an average of 15 Unseen Servants, for a total of +30 on the check. At level 8, you can also have 11 ranks in the relevant Craft, I'm assuming 22 INT (if it's your spell casting stat), masterwork tools and the Magecraft spell quite cheaply and easily. Assuming no other bonuses are involved, that's a total bonus of 65, assuming you take 10. You can improve the DC by 40 (to a total of 57), which will let you 3,705sp per day. You can do this three times per day using three instances of Unseen Servant and two of Unseen Crafter (which make the Craft checks in shifts while you are not around). The Unseen Crafters will use the same bonus minus Magecraft, so a result of 60 against a DC of 57, or 3,420sp per shift. Working with this regimen around the clock, you can make 10,545sp worth of progress in a day, and get the thing done in about 15 days (assuming you need 150,000sp worth of progress to finish). If you are too busy to take 15 days of your life crafting, you can do the same thing with three shifts of Unseen Crafters (the third one replacing your normal shift) for the same total crafting time. You can literally be gone all week, provided you have someone around to cast a CL 8 Servant Horde 3/day in your absence (or you could just not adventure for more than 8 hours at a time).

Boom. Speedy "mundane" golem crafting using only third-level spells and lower.

[Miriad]

In my sessions crafting times are handled in gold pieces instead of silver. Basically we cut down crafting times by 10.

[Amechra]

So... has everyone forgotten what you really should do for this?

Namely, make a big ol' stone mannequin type thing, cast that spell that kills your Familiar (which applies to your Arcane Companion) and raises them as Undead (no XP loss on your end), and then cast Haunt Shift.

Congrats, you now have a throne that has your familiar in it; which begs the question of whether or not the resulting Animated Object has your Familiar/Animal Companion benefits...

[Unusual Muse]

The spell Servant Horde (Spell Compendium) creates 2d6+CL unseen servants. None of these servants can make the Craft check themselves (they can't complete a skill with a DC higher than 10), but they can pass the Aid Another check (DC10). At CL 8, you'd get an average of 15 Unseen Servants, for a total of +30 on the check. At level 8, you can also have 11 ranks in the relevant Craft, I'm assuming 22 INT (if it's your spell casting stat), masterwork tools and the Magecraft spell quite cheaply and easily. Assuming no other bonuses are involved, that's a total bonus of 65, assuming you take 10. You can improve the DC by 40 (to a total of 57), which will let you 3,705sp per day. You can do this three times per day using three instances of Unseen Servant and two of Unseen Crafter (which make the Craft checks in shifts while you are not around). The Unseen Crafters will use the same bonus minus Magecraft, so a result of 60 against a DC of 57, or 3,420sp per shift. Working with this regimen around the clock, you can make 10,545sp worth of progress in a day, and get the thing done in about 15 days (assuming you need 150,000sp worth of progress to finish). If you are too busy to take 15 days of your life crafting, you can do the same thing with three shifts of Unseen Crafters (the third one replacing your normal shift) for the same total crafting time. You can literally be gone all week, provided you have someone around to cast a CL 8 Servant Horde 3/day in your absence (or you could just not adventure for more than 8 hours at a time).

Boom. Speedy "mundane" golem crafting using only third-level spells and lower.

Sometimes I think these forums need a "Like" button. :)

[panaikhan]

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that fabricate changes one substance into another.

Yeah, my bad - missread it the first time.
But still, I just need to find a big enough boulder shrink and shape it. Should only take a few minutes.

[Ashtagon]

The spell Servant Horde (Spell Compendium) creates 2d6+CL unseen servants. None of these servants can make the Craft check themselves (they can't complete a skill with a DC higher than 10), but they can pass the Aid Another check (DC10). At CL 8, you'd get an average of 15 Unseen Servants, for a total of +30 on the check. At level 8, you can also have 11 ranks in the relevant Craft, I'm assuming 22 INT (if it's your spell casting stat), masterwork tools and the Magecraft spell quite cheaply and easily. Assuming no other bonuses are involved, that's a total bonus of 65, assuming you take 10. You can improve the DC by 40 (to a total of 57), which will let you 3,705sp per day. You can do this three times per day using three instances of Unseen Servant and two of Unseen Crafter (which make the Craft checks in shifts while you are not around). The Unseen Crafters will use the same bonus minus Magecraft, so a result of 60 against a DC of 57, or 3,420sp per shift. Working with this regimen around the clock, you can make 10,545sp worth of progress in a day, and get the thing done in about 15 days (assuming you need 150,000sp worth of progress to finish). If you are too busy to take 15 days of your life crafting, you can do the same thing with three shifts of Unseen Crafters (the third one replacing your normal shift) for the same total crafting time. You can literally be gone all week, provided you have someone around to cast a CL 8 Servant Horde 3/day in your absence (or you could just not adventure for more than 8 hours at a time).

Boom. Speedy "mundane" golem crafting using only third-level spells and lower.

Unseen Servant horde won't work. The base DC is higher than 20, which means no servant can succeed alone, which means they can't perform the aid another check.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Unseen Servant horde won't work. The base DC is higher than 20, which means no servant can succeed alone, which means they can't perform the aid another check.

I'm afraid I don't understand? Unseen Servant states that you can't make a skill check more difficult than DC 10... But the Aid Another check is never above a DC10. There is nothing in the rules that limits the Aid Another action to skills that the creature performing the Aid Another action could do normally, as long as it's a type of skill check they could make (for example, you can't Aid Another on a Handle Animal skill check of any kind if you have no ranks in Handle Animal, purely on the basis that it is a check that can't be made untrained). If I have a +5 to Open Lock (1 rank, 14 DEX, masterwork tools), I can still make an Aid Another check (DC 10) to open an amazing lock (DC 40), even if I could not open an amazing lock myself.

EDIT: Boy, is my face red.

EDIT II: Per the aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm) rules:


In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

Emphasis mine.

Which I would take to mean, you can't help someone make a check that acts on the player (by means of individual effort) if you cannot make the check yourself. The Craft check merely represents work done, regardless of who does it, and it certainly doesn't restrict who can achieve certain results. At the same time, I would think it impossible to use the Aid Another action in order to help somebody walk a tightrope (Balance DC 40? 60?) if you, yourself, could not walk a tightrope.

So my original objection stands, but is modified somewhat: to what end does the Craft skill restrict who can achieve certain results?

[Ashtagon]

I'm afraid I don't understand? Unseen Servant states that you can't make a skill check more difficult than DC 10... But the Aid Another check is never above a DC10. There is nothing in the rules that limits the Aid Another action to skills that the creature performing the Aid Another action could do normally, as long as it's a type of skill check they could make (for example, you can't Aid Another on a Handle Animal skill check of any kind if you have no ranks in Handle Animal, purely on the basis that it is a check that can't be made untrained). If I have a +5 to Open Lock (1 rank, 14 DEX, masterwork tools), I can still make an Aid Another check (DC 10) to open an amazing lock (DC 40), even if I could not open an amazing lock myself.

EDIT: Boy, is my face red.

EDIT II: Per the aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm) rules:



Emphasis mine.

Which I would take to mean, you can't help someone make a check that acts on the player (by means of individual effort) if you cannot make the check yourself. The Craft check merely represents work done, regardless of who does it, and it certainly doesn't restrict who can achieve certain results. At the same time, I would think it impossible to use the Aid Another action in order to help somebody walk a tightrope (Balance DC 40? 60?) if you, yourself, could not walk a tightrope.

So my original objection stands, but is modified somewhat: to what end does the Craft skill restrict who can achieve certain results?

My point is that the unseen servant can't possibly succeed on the skill check alone, since the DC is above 20 and the servant has no bonuses. The skill is effectively restricting those who can succeed by saying "must have this many bonuses to play".

[SowZ]

If its any consolation, by RAW crafting a longbow (75gp) can be done by a competent journeyman in 4 days. Realistically, it takes six months to a year.


Can you cite a source? I'm a carpenter, and I think there is no way that's close.

Four days sounds about right to me, and that is assuming you are making your own string/laminating yourself/chopping your own wood.

[Ashtagon]

Can you cite a source? I'm a carpenter, and I think there is no way that's close.

Four days sounds about right to me, and that is assuming you are making your own string/laminating yourself/chopping your own wood.

Most of the time is to allow for the wood to properly dry after being harvested. The actual labour time (as opposed to waiting for natural processes to take effect) can be as little as 2-5 days.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Most of the time is to allow for the wood to properly dry after being harvested. The actual labour time (as opposed to waiting for natural processes to take effect) can be as little as 2-5 days.

I'd heard about that crafting time before and never really thought about it. This actually makes a lot of sense and justifies the 1/3 market price materials cost.

[The Glyphstone]

Personally, I'd have stopped the plan presented on the first page at Animate Objects. Because then I have an animated hamburger golem, and that's way better than a stone golem.

[TuggyNE]

Personally, I'd have stopped the plan presented on the first page at Animate Objects. Because then I have an animated hamburger golem, and that's way better than a stone golem.

Well, uh, dispel magic is a thing. </ruiningthejoke>

[Coidzor]

Well, uh, dispel magic is a thing. </ruiningthejoke>

Hmm, Haunt Shift then?

[Eric Scott]

Well, uh, dispel magic is a thing. </ruiningthejoke>

Put a Spell Clock in the middle of it... and hope they don't find it.

[panaikhan]

OK. Been working the maths out on this one.
I'll spare you the messy details, but even using 4000lbs of granite only gets you enough volume to approximate a medium-sized humanoid, or a comfy chair.
How a stone golem classifies as large (at 2000lbs) is beyond me.

Is there any published material on having stone golems in shapes other than humanoids, or modifying them to work as suits of armour? I'd really like a pointer in the right direction.

[nedz]

Iron Golems have the same problem. We came to the conclusion that they must be hollow :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

OK. Been working the maths out on this one.
I'll spare you the messy details, but even using 4000lbs of granite only gets you enough volume to approximate a medium-sized humanoid, or a comfy chair.
How a stone golem classifies as large (at 2000lbs) is beyond me.

A man-sized, man-shaped object, roughly the density of water, could be around 160-200 lb.

Granite is between 2.65 and 2.75 x the density of water.

An object twice the height of a man, the same shape, would be 8x as massive.

A twice-man height stone golem would have to be pretty lanky (or, as mentioned, hollow) to weigh as little as 2000 pounds. Or, it could be at the bottom end of Large-scale.

A 9 ft golem, based on scaling up a 6 ft, 200 lb, humanoid close to the density of water, could reasonably be 2000 lb without being hollow.

[panaikhan]

It makes more sense for Iron Golems to be hollow. The original source (greek myth) had it filled with lava, which was drained out through a plug in it's foot.

[hoverfrog]

OK. Been working the maths out on this one.
I'll spare you the messy details, but even using 4000lbs of granite only gets you enough volume to approximate a medium-sized humanoid, or a comfy chair.
How a stone golem classifies as large (at 2000lbs) is beyond me.Perhaps the magic makes them larger. If in doubt in D&D then the explanation is "magic".

[hamishspence]

It makes more sense for Iron Golems to be hollow. The original source (greek myth) had it filled with lava, which was drained out through a plug in it's foot.

Wasn't that a bronze golem?

I recall them being in earlier editions.

Odd note- I've checked the SRD, and while a stone golem is 9 ft and 2000 lb, a Greater stone golem is 18 ft and 32000 lb- 16x the mass of the smaller one, not 8x.

Maybe it's chunkier?

[Jeff the Green]

Wasn't that a bronze golem?

Yes, Talos. And it was ichor (blood of the gods), not lava. It was said to have flowed out like molten lead, but it definitely wasn't actually molten anything.

[nedz]

9' is 6' + 50%, so it should weigh (1.5)3 as much; that is 3.375.

So 200 lb equivalent with a relative density of 2.7 (say) is 1,822 lbs, which is close enough to 2000 lbs.

An 18' one would weigh 14,580 based on 1,822, or 16,000 lbs based on 2,000 lbs.

So they got the maths wrong on the Greater Stone Golem; unless it's made of denser material, or is chunkier etc.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Simple answer: the biggest a stone statue gets the more support it needs to not crumble. Normal stone golems are hollow, greater have more internal stone to prevent them from collapsing before animation.

[hamishspence]

A stone golem shaped exactly like a human, wouldn't need to be hollow to weigh as little as it does. Especially if it's a fairly slim human.

It would only need to be hollow if it had a fairly chunky build.

[Fyermind]

To the peopl using the assumption that six foot tall people weigh 200 pounds, 140 lbs is perfectly reasonable for a six fot tall, healthy, athletic person. (Also known as me)

If you are building something out of stone, you don't want it heavier than it has to be. Since it isn't using muscle, but magic, to move, being bulky has little benefit.

[hamishspence]

Remember that people are slightly less dense than water- I was using that, and water density, as a baseline.

That said- using Iron as 8 times the density of a person (it may be slightly higher), a 12 ft Iron Golem built along the same lines, would be:

140 lb x 8 x 8 = 8960 lb.

So 5000 lb is still very low.

Strongly supporting the hypothesis that iron golems, at least, are hollow.

[Deepbluediver]

If you are building something out of stone, you don't want it heavier than it has to be. Since it isn't using muscle, but magic, to move, being bulky has little benefit.

Golems get a boost to their HP based on size, of which one component (you could argue the more relevant one here) is weight.