Hide in plain site

[sambouchah]

So I was looking through unearthed arcana and found the illusionist alternate to bonus feats. I aw they have hide in plain site as a ranger(but anywhere). Is this as good as the shadowdancer's HiPS ability or at least worth not having the feats? I was thinking of taking my 14th level bard to a wizard for a couple levels and thought that may be nice.

If anyone has a better multiclass combo let me know.

Thanks, Sam

[GreenETC]

If you want HiPS, you can get it from a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis in the Tome of Magic for 10800 for 10min/day or 22000 to have it permanently.

[sambouchah]

If you want HiPS, you can get it from a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis in the Tome of Magic for 10800 for 10min/day or 22000 to have it permanently.

I don't really want to spend the gold pieces on it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Illusionist variant is the strongest of the three, but the Shadow Dancer gets their's earlier. Honestly I find that it is okay to give up the feats. Besides, the level of illusionist gives your bard spells access to Chain of Disbelief.

[Talderas]

Since the Hide in Plain Sight is like the ranger ability, the Illusionist gains an extraordinary HIPS ability. That means that it functions within an anti-magic field. Shadowdancer's HIPS is supernatural (does not function in an antimagic field) and requires a shadow within range. This means the Illusionist's HIPS is essentially perfect and cannot be foiled by any means beyond physically incapacitating the illusionist.

[GreenETC]

Besides, the level of illusionist gives your bard spells access to Chain of Disbelief.

Honestly, with this added on top of the perfect HiPS, I'd say it's definitely worth it then. The only issue is that HiPS comes at lvl 15 Illusionist.

[Curmudgeon]

Since the Hide in Plain Sight is like the ranger ability, the Illusionist gains an extraordinary HIPS ability. That means that it functions within an anti-magic field. Shadowdancer's HIPS is supernatural (does not function in an antimagic field) and requires a shadow within range. This means the Illusionist's HIPS is essentially perfect and cannot be foiled by any means beyond physically incapacitating the illusionist.
"Essentially perfect"? I think not, because you missed one very important point: this variant Illusionist ability approximately duplicates the Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight (at level 15). It doesn't duplicate the Ranger's Camouflage ability. So you won't be able to Hide unless you have cover/concealment where you are. The Shadowdancer Supernatural HiPS removes the need for cover/concealment. And, unless there's utter darkness, there's always going to be a shadow within 10', even if it's from a single blade of grass or grain of sand.

The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis HiPS has the same cover/concealment requirement, plus doesn't function at all half the time (daylight).

[Andezzar]

The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis HiPS has the same cover/concealment requirement, plus doesn't function at all half the time (daylight).Even worse, it gives you the Extraplanar Subtype. So people can send you to the Plane of Shadow.Without any means to come back that item is a very bad idea.

[Lostbutseeking]

The Dark creature template version from Cormyr - Tearing of the Weave doesn't require cover or concealment. It's SU and won't work in daylight though.

[ShurikVch]

Arguably the strongest HiPS is at the 9th lvl of Dark Lantern (Five Nations , pg. 68), because it isn't limited at all. Any environment, any illumination, without any cover... And it's (ex) so even central eye of beholder wouldn't notice you.

Other dips to get HiPS or HiPS-like abilities (level/class/condition):
1/Hellbreaker/any kind of darkness
2/Stonedeath Assassin/while underground and touching stone
4/Forest Reeve/natural terrain
3/Umbral Disciple/(Su), need essentia

[Curmudgeon]

Arguably the strongest HiPS is at the 9th lvl of Dark Lantern (Five Nations , pg. 68), because it isn't limited at all. Any environment, any illumination, without any cover... And it's (ex) so even central eye of beholder wouldn't notice you.
Corrections:

It's not among the strongest versions; see below.
Dark Lantern starts on page 69 of the book.
You still do need cover/concealment. There's nothing in the Dark Lantern prestige class description which overrides (or in any way even addresses) that basic Hide requirement.

[ShurikVch]

Corrections:

It's not among the strongest versions; see below.
Dark Lantern starts on page 69 of the book.
You still do need cover/concealment. There's nothing in the Dark Lantern prestige class description which overrides (or in any way even addresses) that basic Hide requirement.

OK. Is there any versions of HiPS which isn't need a cover?

[Andezzar]

OK. Is there any versions of HiPS which isn't need a cover?Shadowdancer, Cormyr Dark Creature Template. There may be others. IIRC It's most of the SU Hide in Plain Sight.

[erikun]

As others have mentioned, Hide in Plain Sight is not Camouflage; you still need cover to make the hide check to begin with. Furthermore, it comes at 15th level, and at the 15th wizard level at that. This means no multiclassing and no prestige classing, although with it requiring Hide checks you probably won't be taking a different class anyways. You will also have 8th-level spells at this point, with a host of shadowy conjuration and invisibility options - including Invisibility for the last 12 levels.

That said, it is a fun option if you are just looking for a somewhat different wizard! The character does not end up exceptionally stronger (which is a good thing) and hiding does have its advantages: opponents relying on True Seeing will not be able to automatically spot someone hiding with an extraordinary ability.

[Curmudgeon]

OK. Is there any versions of HiPS which isn't need a cover?
As Andezzar noted, the Supernatural versions of Hide in Plain Sight also remove the need for cover/concealment. The natural terrain versions (Ranger, Scout, & c.) are usually all paired with Camouflage to handle that Hide requirement separately.

As for the single strongest version of Hide in Plain Sight, that would be found in the Eye of Lolth prestige class (Drow of the Underdark, pages 80-83). It works like the Assassin's Supernatural HiPS, but is Extraordinary and thus still works in an Antimagic Field. But be warned: you will pay very dearly to acquire this ability:
Entry Requirements

Race: Drow.
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Feats: Cautious Attack (see page 47).
Domain: Trickery.
Special: Evasion.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6 or skirmish +2d6. And after that, you've still got to get to 6th level in the class to get Hide in Plain Sight!

If you were already planning to play a female Drow Rogue/Cleric, this one might be worth considering; otherwise, probably not.

[jokeaccount]

Since there is already a HiPS thread and I have a related question I will bomb this fast:

I have a rogue character with the spring attack feat. I want to be able to perform the following sequence:

-Start the round hidden in some kind of darkness (maybe the spell)
-While hidden, use part of my move action to move to my target
-Attack with sneak via flat footed
-Use the remainder of my move action to move back into the darkness and hide.

I assume I will require HiPS to do this and I plan on getting it via the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Is my logic concrete or am I missing something that does not allow me to perform this sequence?

[Curmudgeon]

-Start the round hidden in some kind of darkness (maybe the spell)
-While hidden, use part of my move action to move to my target
OK so far.

-Attack with sneak via flat footed
One point right off: if you use the core rules, your target will be denied their DEX bonus to AC when you are hidden, but they will not be flat-footed. Only if you use the added rule in Rules Compendium on page 92 does being hidden cause your enemy to be treated as flat-footed with respect to you.

Moving along, how are you managing to be hidden for this attack? You don't normally stay hidden when you move. There are two possibilities for you:

If you can satisfy the requirements when you move to your attack position, you can Hide as part of your movement. With a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis you still must separately satisfy the cover/concealment requirement. If you're using the Darkness spell that concealment will then allow you to Hide, but concealment also makes you incapable of adding sneak attack damage. Generally when you're within melee attack range of your enemy you're not going to have cover/concealment relative to them.
If you've got enough ranks in Hide, you may be able to use the Move between Cover rule in Complete Adventurer (pages 101-102) to (attempt to) stay hidden when you move away from cover/concealment. However, there are limits and penalties associated with this option; see the book for the full details.
Good luck with that Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, especially when you get dismissed/banished to the Plane of Shadow. :smallwink:

[Andezzar]

-Start the round hidden in some kind of darkness (maybe the spell)Normal (absolute) darkness would not work because you cannot hide while having total concealment. The Darkness spell would work because it does not cloak the area in darkness but in shadowy illumination.

[babus]

I assume I will require HiPS to do this and I plan on getting it via the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Is my logic concrete or am I missing something that does not allow me to perform this sequence?

Should be, though note of warning, Hiding while attacking incurs a -20 to the check... and Hiding while being observed, even with HiPS still requires the -10 to Hide for moving quickly to cover. If that's cumulative, that's one heck of a roll, even with the bonus from the collar.


It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Granted, the wording is a little vague (you're completing your move after attacking and using that move action to hide), so your DM might rule in your favor for Spring Attack making you exempt.

[jokeaccount]

@Curmudgeon: As long as Dex denied to AC I can SA so I'm good with that. I don't really see where the problem is. I start from hidden position and move while hiding (incurring the penalty of -10 I believe). The way we're interpreting the Hide skill here is that you require cover/concealment in order to execute a successful hide check and "enter stealth mode" After entering said mode you can move around in any way as long as no enemy beats your hide/MS roll with his spot/listen check. Are you saying that any step I do hidden requires some part of cover/concealment? Doesn't that make it impossible to use hide? Even so however I will be using darkness on me and even if my enemy benefits from concealment from my darkness AoE it doesn't matter since this Rogue has Shadowsight which pierces (SU) darkness.
About the banishment thing, first of all no one is gonna think about it and even if they do I can shadow walk back so no problems there ;)

@Andezzar: In absolute darkness you don't even need to roll a hide check since you're considered instantly hidden.

@babus: Again, I hide first via the HiPS, then, after the enemy has lost me I start moving against them so I'm not being observed anymore. While they don't see me I move in position to attack them (move action like if I'm using Invisibility spell). Do I still incur the -20 penalty during this movement? (and even if I did with the collar activated I have a +38 check on hide so I should be cool). The goal here is to be able to achieve Sneak Attacks solo and avoid getting hit since I'm always hidden

[Curmudgeon]

@Curmudgeon: As long as Dex denied to AC I can SA so I'm good with that. I don't really see where the problem is. I start from hidden position and move while hiding (incurring the penalty of -10 I believe). The way we're interpreting the Hide skill here is that you require cover/concealment in order to execute a successful hide check and "enter stealth mode" After entering said mode you can move around in any way as long as no enemy beats your hide/MS roll with his spot/listen check. Are you saying that any step I do hidden requires some part of cover/concealment? Doesn't that make it impossible to use hide?
The place where you stop moving (your hiding place) is where the conditions to use the Hide skill must be met. Think about it: what good does it do you if you were hidden somewhere when you started moving, but are in plain sight when you stop? If you can't Hide when you get to where you can attack the enemy, that isn't a hiding place. (It's because of exactly this situation that the Move between Cover option for the Hide skill exists.) The Hide skill rules bury this important clue to exactly at what point of your movement you Hide, but it is there.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind.

[babus]

Is there any specific text that indicates that moving out of cover disrupts your status as Hidden from your target? I would imagine that entering their line of sight would realistically cause them to see you, but I could also see it as being as if you were, say, sneaking up on someone otherwise occupied or unsure of which direction you were arriving from.

@jokeaccount
I'm saying that you attacking at any point during your turn may incur the -20 even if you hide after the attack. I'm not aware of any standard ability that lets you Hide as part of an attack action, so as I said, whether Spring Attack is Exempt is up to your DM.

You may want to consider just taking the template from Cormyr. It's a +1, but with it, you always have the concealment needed to attack from, bypassing the rules question altogether.

[jokeaccount]

I know that AFTER executing my sneak attack, I will be out of "hide" status THUS i need the HiPS ability to be able to hide back again. At what point of the actions does the -20 check apply exactly?

[babus]

I know that AFTER executing my sneak attack, I will be out of "hide" status THUS i need the HiPS ability to be able to hide back again. At what point of the actions does the -20 check apply exactly?

When attempting to hide after executing the attack. As far as I know you can only Hide once, so we'll assume you are in concealment already at the begging of your turn, as per the cycle you mentioned. Curmudgeon has a point, though, if the rules indicate that you can't move out of Concealment and still be considered hidden, this won't work without the version of HiPS that ignores the need for Cover/Concealment. Or else you'll need to carry cover with you somehow. There are maybe tricks with Blink Ring along those lines.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there any specific text that indicates that moving out of cover disrupts your status as Hidden from your target?
Yes; it's in Complete Adventurer, as I mentioned.

[babus]

Yes; it's in Complete Adventurer, as I mentioned.

Ah, misread your earlier post. My apologies.

[jokeaccount]

So you're saying that without any concealment I can't be considered hidden then? But then how can someone move around in a fort for example without being seen by succeeding his Hide checks? There can't be cover EVERYWHERE and I'm pretty sure that even if there was no one is going to sit down and roll dice for moving from pillar to table to door etc.

[babus]

So you're saying that without any concealment I can't be considered hidden then? But then how can someone move around in a fort for example without being seen by succeeding his Hide checks? There can't be cover EVERYWHERE and I'm pretty sure that even if there was no one is going to sit down and roll dice for moving from pillar to table to door etc.

Well, in those cases, I'd imagine they're using a liberal interpretation of cover and including things like shadows/steps/etc. In cases where a Guard is watching the halls of said fortress, you'd only make a hide check while inside Cover and make a Move Silently check to move around without making noise. You don't need to roll to move between cover when no ones watching, after all, and if the fortress is so stocked with guards that there is always someone observing, then rolling every time you move from cover to cover would make sense.

[nedz]

Good luck with that Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, especially when you get dismissed/banished to the Plane of Shadow. :smallwink:

In the OP's case this isn't required, because Shadowwalk, but otherwise a friendly Arcanist can cast Shadow Cache or Shadowfade to allow you to return (SpC, both). I'm not sure what would happen if you were to cast either of these spells from the Plane of Shadow itself ?

[Talderas]

Normal (absolute) darkness would not work because you cannot hide while having total concealment. The Darkness spell would work because it does not cloak the area in darkness but in shadowy illumination.

This is incorrect. Hiding requires cover or concealment. The PHB simply states that total cover and total concealment usually obviate the need for a hide check since you cannot be seen anyway.

--


So you're saying that without any concealment I can't be considered hidden then? But then how can someone move around in a fort for example without being seen by succeeding his Hide checks?

You need cover or concealment to hide. Shadowy illumination provides concealment. You sneak around a fort by sticking to the shadows.

[jokeaccount]

Since I'm kinda getting confused because I don't really a see a clear interpretation of the rules on this subject can someone actually outline clearly all the steps and rolls that must be made in order to achieve the above sequence?

Reminder:
Start away from enemy, hidden in order to gain denied Dex for Sneak attack
Use part of your move action via spring attack to get close
Sneak attack them
Use the rest of your move action to move away from enemy
Hide again in order to repeat in the next round.

What you can use:

Ability to cast Darkness spell
Shadowsight ability in order to avoid the concealment penalty if someone is inside darkness
Hide in plain Sight from the collar of umbral metamorphosis
35+ hide and move silently modifiers
Haste/Expeditious retreat cast on self for extra movement (depends on your distance from enemy but lets say it is about 30 ft.

That's about it

[Person_Man]

These are your options:

Warlock or Dragonfire Adept 1 with Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) feat
Ranger 17 - natural terrain
Scout 14 - natural terrain
Illusionist 15 (class variant), Unearthed Arcana - unconditional
Assassin 8, ecl 13 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Shadowdancer 1, ecl 8 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Nightsong Infiltrator 10, ecl 17 - natural terrain
Dark Lantern 9, ecl 14, Eberron: Five Nations - does not require natural terrain or concealment, in fact seems totally unconditional
Scar Enforcer 7, ecl 12, Races of Destiny - natural terrain
Wildrunner 5, ecl 10, Races of the Wild - natural terrain
Stalker of Kharesh 4, ecl 9, Book of Exalted Deeds, w/quarter cover or quarter concealment
Wilderness Rogue (UA)
Umbral Disciple 3, ecl 8, Magic of Incarnum, see text
Luiren Marchwarden 5, ECL 10, FR: Shining South - doesn't require cover or concealment, but only works in specific region
Shadar-Kai, race, Fiend Folio, ecl 4
Dark creature, template, Tome of Magic - doesn't require cover or concealment or terrain, but doesn't work in bright light
Shadow Creature, template, Lords of Madness - in shadowy regions only
Lurking Terror 3, ecl 8, Libris Mortis - requires cover or concealment
Paladin 6 (Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level), Champions of Valor web enhancement - near shadows
Justice of Weald and Woe 9, ecl 15, FR: Champions of Ruin - natural terrain
Planar Touchstone (The Veil), feat, Planar Handbook - near shadow
Hellbreaker 1, ecl 6, Fiendish Codex II, in any kind of darkness, not called "hide in plain sight"
Shadowspy 9, ecl 13, Complete Champion, in area of sunlight
Sentinel of Bharrai 5, ecl 10, Book of Exalted Deeds, within 10' of natural terrain
Shadowcraft Mage 1, ecl 8, Races of Stone - constant ability, provides partial concealment, allows hide checks
Collar of umbral metamorphosis, item, tome of magic - gives the Dark Creature template (see above)
Ranger 17 or Scout 14, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement, Hide in Plain Site in any urban environment

[Urpriest]

So you're saying that without any concealment I can't be considered hidden then? But then how can someone move around in a fort for example without being seen by succeeding his Hide checks? There can't be cover EVERYWHERE and I'm pretty sure that even if there was no one is going to sit down and roll dice for moving from pillar to table to door etc.

...the same way they do it in reality?

You can't sneak around a fort in rooms where there are guards in reality unless it's dark or you have objects to hide behind, why do you think it's possible without high level abilities in D&D?

[Andezzar]

This is incorrect. Hiding requires cover or concealment. The PHB simply states that total cover and total concealment usually obviate the need for a hide check since you cannot be seen anyway.Actually what I wrote is correct and the same thing you wrote. In total cover/concealment you are not allowed to make a hide check because you cannot be seen anyways. (Absolute) darkness grants total concealment, the spell Darkness grants concealment through its description.

The problem is that you cannot hide at all without without some tricks unless I'm missing something:
-As long as there is no observer you cannot determine whether the character attempting to hide has cover or concealment (because of its directionality)
-When there is an observer, the character cannot hide because he obviously is observed.
-There is no rule that both rolls of the opposed tests can be made at different times (like with forgery)

[Answerer]

In such cases, you do not need to use Hide to be hidden though.

[jokeaccount]

Person_Man, all those options are cool but I've figured out how to get the hide while observed. What I want is for someone to outline me clearly the steps and rolls and everything I will require to perform the sequence above. Assume that I'm one of your players and I want to do that and you are the DM. What rolls are we gonna have to do and what things do we have to pay attention to?

[Urpriest]

Person_Man, all those options are cool but I've figured out how to get the hide while observed. What I want is for someone to outline me clearly the steps and rolls and everything I will require to perform the sequence above. Assume that I'm one of your players and I want to do that and you are the DM. What rolls are we gonna have to do and what things do we have to pay attention to?

The stealth rules are a little weird, and as Andrezzar pointed out they're technically impossible to use because you only make Hide checks while there are people around to observe you and you (without Hide in Plain Sight) cannot make hide checks while being observed.

That said, a number of interpretations have arisen, of which Curmudgeon's is generally the most respected (with some omissions usually). I can summarize what I understand of it, though I may get something wrong (and if so Curmudgeon should feel free to correct me).

1. Make sure you have cover, concealment, or something (Camouflage, some versions of Hide in Plain Sight) that gets rid of this need.
2. Take an action. In general, Hide is attached to some other action, and a successful Hide check will determine whether you are hidden while you are performing that action.
3. a. If that action is moving up to one half your normal speed, make a Hide check with no penalty.
3. b. If that action is moving greater than one half but less than your full speed, take a -5 penalty.
3. c. If that action is an attack, run, or the charge action, take a -20 penalty.
3. d. If that action is none of the above you cannot be hidden while taking it.
4. Your opponent rolls a spot check (note that spot has weird rules about not getting to reroll spot against things you have already failed to spot without spending an action. Curmudgeon can try to explain them, I don't think they're clear enough to use in a real game). If they equal or beat your Hide check, they see you, and you are not hidden from them. Otherwise you are hidden from them.

Repeat for each action you take on your turn, with your last action (presumably, though this is not spelled out) determining your status during whoever's turn is next.

[jokeaccount]

Excellent! Thanks Urpriest. The part I was confused about was when and where do I make the hide checks. From what I understand I can make 2 hide checks if I move twice using Spring attack then? Like, one at the beginning of the turn in order to approach hidden, and one after the attack in order to disappear from sight while I move away from my target right?

[babus]

Excellent! Thanks Urpriest. The part I was confused about was when and where do I make the hide checks. From what I understand I can make 2 hide checks if I move twice using Spring attack then? Like, one at the beginning of the turn in order to approach hidden, and one after the attack in order to disappear from sight while I move away from my target right?

Well, for every 5 ranks of Hide you have, you can move 5 feat from cover without losing your hidden status (Complete Adventurer, as Curmudgeon pointed out), but you take a -5 for each 5 feet you travel while sneaking up on someone. The Hide check is going to be made, even if you were already Hidden during your initial move to your opponent for the purposes of stabbing them. Urpriest has the right idea, so let's break it down once again.

1. You start the round Hidden from a check you made last round.
2. You move from Cover, let's say 10 feat to your opponent.
3. Your opponent gets a check to notice you, here you roll Hide, opposed by the opponent's Spot, you take a -10 on this roll for moving 10 feet, or more if you choose to move more quickly than half your speed, which is relevant because you're spring attacking and thus not stopping. Shouldn't matter, as with the Collar, you'll be at 40 feet movement, so 10 feet to the opponent, and then ten feet back.
4. You (presumably) make the check and stab the target.
5. You move back into cover and make a new Hide check at a -20 penalty for attempting to hide in the same round as an attack.
6. You (presumable) make the check and are now hidden. Your move has ended.

So yes, two checks.

Edit: Or two checks assuming your DM doesn't observe the target not being allowed to roll spot against the same target more than once bit.

[Urpriest]

5. You move back into cover and make a new Hide check at a -20 penalty for attempting to hide in the same round as an attack.


This is a slightly different interpretation than the one I presented, or the one Curmudgeon adheres to. The penalty is not for hiding in the same round as an attack (it would be trivial to have written the rules to specify that, if it were true there would be no reason to assume the time interval is a round rather than two rounds, a minute, or even a day), it is for hiding while attacking. It only applies during the attack itself.

Let's assume you have concealment throughout the following (this seems the more likely scenario for a character focused on stealth). You have Spring Attack, and are moving at less than half speed throughout.

1. Move up to the target. Make a Hide check at no penalty.
2. Attack the target. Make a Hide check at a -20 penalty.
3. Move away from the target. Make a Hide check at no penalty.

If your opponent's Spot beats your Hide for any of those checks, the opponent sees you. This means that (after the action in which you fail your Hide, so after the attack resolves for step 2) the opponent is no longer flat-footed. It also means that you count as being observed, so you cannot Hide again without a distraction or Hide in Plain Sight.

The Complete Adventurer rules for moving between cover let you do Step 1 or Step 3 without concealment, at a penalty. You still fail at step 2, but if you have Hide in Plain Sight you're fine.

[Gwendol]

Does the -20 penalty for hiding while attacking apply to a character with HiPS?

[Urpriest]

Does the -20 penalty for hiding while attacking apply to a character with HiPS?

Yes. I don't know of any HiPS ability that obviates that penalty.

[babus]

This is a slightly different interpretation than the one I presented, or the one Curmudgeon adheres to. The penalty is not for hiding in the same round as an attack (it would be trivial to have written the rules to specify that, if it were true there would be no reason to assume the time interval is a round rather than two rounds, a minute, or even a day), it is for hiding while attacking. It only applies during the attack itself.

Hmm... yes, that's the better interpretation. I assumed it was specifically for scenarios where a character attacked before attempting to move into cover, but this would mean it's possible for a character to attack without anyone realizing where the attack had come from, which is intriguing.

[Gwendol]

Ok, thanks.