So, I'm building a Shifter Monk

[inexorabletruth]

It's level 1, so I'm not expecting much. I just like how some of the Shifter options really work well with the feel of a chop-socky monk. I've completely ruled out the Wildhunt Shifter, but I'm torn on whether I should build defensively or offensively. I'm building him for melee, so WIS will definitely be my prime stat to keep that AC high even when caught FF. I just wanted to know what some of you think. Here are some build options I've put together:

Longtooth Build (Bite Attack = +3/-2, 1d6 Bite or FoB +1/+1)
13 CON
8 INT
15 STR (17 STR, 4 Rounds)
17 WIS
8 CHA
13 DEX

Razorclaw Build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=526788) (Claws Attack+FoB +1(x4) 2d6/2d4), Stunning Fist DC 16 Offense Build (AC 15)

STR 15 (17, 5 Rds, x1/Day)
DEX 13+2
CON 13
INT 8-2
WIS 17
CHA 8-2

Longstride Build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=527791) (AC 20, Speed 40, Charger Build)

STR 13
DEX 15+2 (19, 4 Rds)
CON 13
INT 8-2
WIS 17
CHA 8-2

Beasthide Build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=527224): (AC 19, HP 16, x2 Shifting Endurance/Defense Build)

STR 13
DEX 13+2
CON 15 (17, 9 Rds, 2x/Day)
INT 8-2
WIS 17
CON 8-2

Cliffwalk Build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=526767)(AC 21, Climb Speed 20, Grapple +5) Pouncer/Grappler Build

STR 13
DEX 15+2 (17, 4 Rds, x1/Day)
CON 13
INT 8-2
WIS 17
CHA 8-2

My thoughts:
I like the Longtooth build as a grappler monk. The DPS will be nice for the build type, and the ferocity inherent in the attack will be fun to RP. Having him clamp down on an opponent's jugular with his bite attack sounds like the perfect way to finish most of his encounters.

Razerclaw would obviously be a Stunning Fist/FoB build. The intent here would be to land more hits for less damage each. I just want to be in the thick of things with this guy, tearing into opponents like Wolverine.

Longstride gives me good lvl 1 AC and excellent mobility. By Level 3 I'll be able to charge almost completely across the battle map, as long as I have a straight line to my target. I'd be taking feats that involve fighting on the go as I level up. I'm planning on mainly hanging way out back of the formation, and charging wherever I'm needed.

Beasthide gives me good AC and good HP for gritty, up close combat. I'm going to build largely for giving as well as I take on the front line... sort of the Rocky Balboa of monks.

Cliffwalk Build gives me good AC and a cool climb speed for crazy monk effects up walls and such. Great for dungeon crawls and creepy sneak attacks.

What do you guys think? Has anyone had any experience with Shifter Monks? Did you find one that was particularly fun?

In any of these builds, I'm probably going to take Sacred Vow, and Vow of Poverty feat once I get there, so that I may leave the fancy new swag we acquire in combat to the noobs.

Disclaimer:
This is low-op. A monk is a perfectly acceptable class for this campaign. We're in a 4-player with 2 noobs and I didn't want to build anything that makes them vanish into the background, so this is a perfect opportunity for me to play a class that is normally unplayable.

[Man on Fire]

With Razerclaw I think I would advise you to take some template that give you additional natural attacks and then take Multiattack feat, unless this shift qualify you for it anyway. I would recommend Helf-Minotaur.

From what I think, any of these builds could use best Monk PrC - Fist of the Forest - 3 levels and nice bonuses and you can easily continue as monk with it. I would recommend Warshaper, but such combinatio seems too optimized for your game.

[inexorabletruth]

Thanks for the feedback!

As a Longtooth or Razerclaw Shifter, I'd gain a natural attack.

With Longtooth, 1 bite attack worth 1d6 dmg, -5 to hit.
With Razerclaw, 2 claw attacks, 1d4 dmg, -2 to hit each.

Though I only get these natural attacks while shifting. But seriously, that's all I need it for. I can shift twice a day which is typically enough to handle a day's worth of encounters, unless we're in a Mook Horror Show dungeon.

I'm starting to lean towards the Razerclaw Shifter because of this.

[inexorabletruth]

So, I just learned that I can't add natural attacks to a Flurry of Blows… which sucks. I edited the initial post to reflect this atrocity.

So that almost literally declaws the Longtooth and Razerclaw build. At this point, the Longstride and Cliffwalk build sound the most fun.

[Man on Fire]

I'm pretty sure you can add natural attacks to flurry, they just doesn't count as the part of the flurry, just secondary attacks. That sure declaws your attacks a bit, but not really that much, and you could still get a bit more. As I said, with good template you could go into Multiattack feat, which should have give you what you wanted in the first place..

[Gavinfoxx]

what about Saurian Shifter?

[inexorabletruth]

@Gavinfoxx:
TBH, I'm interested in narrowing my options, not expanding them.

@Man on Fire:
I hope you're right. Q&A by RAW thread seems to disagree, but I can always ask the DM.

[inexorabletruth]

DM says I can have secondary natural attacks and FoB! Sweet!

Okay... so now my options are big again.

Razorclaw:
I want to build for furry fury. I'd like to thrash like wolverine, and really sling that Stunning Fist attack. I know there are some feats that raise the DC of Stunning Fist and give me more Stunning Fist attacks per encounter. Anybody have any feat suggestions to really work those claws?

Beasthide:
Also a furry fury, but mostly for the purposes of crowd control. I'm leaning toward defensive abilities like Combat Expertise that allows me to "pull aggro" from the mooks. I believe there's a monk feat that allows me to change my damage type to overcome DR, which might be helpful.

Longtooth:
I plan to mostly grapple, so I'll take the Improved Grapple path, obviously. Any awesome grapple feats for shifters that you could recommend?

Cliffwalk:
I want to get stealthy. I plan on building a pounce themed monk, so I might take the Grapple path with this one as well. I'm leaning towards Battle Jump and other feats that build off of falling or jumping from high places and surprising my enemies. Any thoughts?

Longstride:
I'm going to mostly rely on my mobility to give me extreme charging. I'm going to also take feats like Power Attack, Leap Attack and Cobalt Charge to really hammer an opponent. If I recall, there's a feat that allows me to do a full attack at the end of a charge. Isn't that MultiAttack?

[Azoth]

I am personally a fan of Razor claw. Unfortunately, to gain a good number of shifts you need to slam feats into Shifter feats. Ugh...

For lvl1 I would rather see a the Pouncebarian start. No need to sling a weapon. Just shift and charge for 2 claw attacks to rip things up.

As a primal carnage monk though, I still love Razorclaw.

If flaws are allowed try for Extra Shifter Trait to pick up longtooth. Blow the shift out to full and launch 3 natural attacks to start and an unarmed to finish it.

[Larkas]

Please, don't forget to check the article on Dragon Magazine #355 on Shifter Monks. Pages 74-77. Flurry on a charge rocks.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Cliffwalk seems like the most fun to me. Think about adding scout levels to gain some bonus damage on your attacks to really emphasize your "kill them before they know your there"-ness. it shouldn't really affect party balance if you only use it on the first attack or when it makes sense RP wise. Since you said you are pumping WIS, I recommend looking into the exalted feat: Karmic Strike. It lets you use your WIs mod with simple weapons, which unarmed strikes fall under. It'll help you hit more often so you dont waste those skirmish attacks.

[animewatcha]

I'd say gun for the longtooth. You can do secondary natural attacks at end of flurry ( -5 to attack unless multiattack feat which makes it -2 this is before flurry penalties ). Longtooth has feat in which you deal con damage on your bite. Would be a way to introduce them to ability damage and such.

[Azoth]

Making me wonder if there is a way to use weretouched master to get into black blood cultist? That would show them the terror of grappling up close and personal. That or Primeval. Both PRC's seem like natural fits for a shifter, but not so much a shifter monk unfortunatley.

Oh, just remembered the moonspeaker shift. +2 wisdom and some other benefits if you want to focus on Wisdom.

[inexorabletruth]

@Azoth:
Flaws are allowed. UA Flaws are auto-approved, all else has to be run by DM.

I wonder if the DM would shake his fist at me if I built a double shifter that would exploit FoB? With those stacked bonuses to STR, I'd be a freaking mauler, with a 19.

Punch, kick, claw, claw, bite? That's a lot of flurry for level one. But how do the penalties go? I think it would be:
-2/-2/-2/-2/-5, right?

So, if I did the penalties right, we're looking at:
FoB: +2/+2/+2/+2/-1

Lessee. Your standard issue goblin has an AC of 15, meaning I have to roll 14 or higher to hit, granting me about a 30% chance of hitting the goblin each roll during the Flurry and Claw attacks, and a 20% chance of hitting with the Bite… not good odds, but not terrible for level one.

If I build for this, I could add Pain Touch to my Stunning Fist attack once my BAB is up, then nauseate my opponents for the hilarity of hitting them soooo hard, sooo fast, it makes them puke.

Of course I could build for a Matrix style monk… charging in (Longstride), and then running along the wall (Cliffwalk), kicking off, spinning, and putting a clawed foot through the same gobbo's teeth.

Leap Attack, Battle Jump and Power Attack would work well for this combo, though I wouldn't be able to take all that at level one. Still, it would be easy to build into.

I'll cross the PrC bridge when I get to it. We're playing a level one game with half the team as nooks, and a DM who hasn't run a game since before I started learning to play. We're going to spend most of our sessions looking through rulebooks for the first few months, especially since we'll only play once a week. But I don't think I'm going to mulit-class unless I have to in order to meet a PrC prereq. Moonspeaker Shifter does sound really cool though.

@Larkas:
Dang. I want to Flurry with a charge, but I don't have that issue. :smallfrown:

@Vixsor Lumin:
I'm confused. The only Karmic Strike I know of is in Complete Warrior, and it's a terrible feat that doesn't do what you said it does. Where did you find this alt version of Karmic Strike? I'd be really interested if you have a source.

@animewatcha:
The multiattack feat seems like a must if I'm going to build a shifter FoB monk. Duly noted.

Where is the feat that gives you CON damage to your bite?

[Azoth]

I think the feat he meant was intuitive attack. It is an okay feat. I personally would rather see a 1 level dip into Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures. It costs 3 crap feats but its first level ability allows to add wis to hit and damage.

So comboing the two you can gain wis to hit twice and to damage once.

[animewatcha]

What do you mean by double-shifter? Saurians?

The feat is in races of eberron. Need to be a longtooth shifter type though.

[inexorabletruth]

Lol. I didn't know what else to call it.

A shifter who took the feat to shift more than one way. For instance a Razorclaw Longtooth Shifter, or a Cliffwalk Longstride Shifter. I took a little bit of this and a little bit of that from each of you and am starting to put together my sheets. What do you think?

Razorclaw Shifter Monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=526788)
Cliffwalk Shifter Monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=526767)
Longstride Cliffwalk Shifter (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=526931)

[Derpldorf]

If your still looking for advice, if you take the longfang option you could take the Feral template(ss) and gain both a bite and two claw attacks along with a bevy of other minor goodies. It also qualifies you to be a Fang shield(cv) Champion of the wild (cc) Shifter sub (re) Ranger...

[inexorabletruth]

I'm definitely still looking for advice. But I'm not sure if I understand your suggestion.

I'm going to build a Razorclaw Longtooth Shifter Monk as well, so I wouldn't need the Feral Template.

[Derpldorf]

Sorry, I have trouble sometimes getting things out coherently. Let me try that again.

It's of my opinion that taking both longtooth and razorclaw is a waste of the extra trait feat. A bite or a pair of claws is not worth the three feats you would need to get them. I would advise getting a trait that gives you a movement type like swiftwing or Truediver, or one that gives you a sense like Wildhunt. Heck even Dreamsighted is a better choice in my book.

Additionally I'd advise you not to go for Monk. As ... Thematic as it is you could easily refluff a Barbarian or Ranger along the same lines and be much stronger in the long run. They both have numerous ACF's that would fit.

[inexorabletruth]

I'm resisting the Shifter Barbarian on purpose... because they are awesome. This is a chance for me to play a monk, because the campaign is very low op. Two noobs and an out-of-practice DM want to keep the game simple, and I'm for that.

I never get to play a monk, regardless of the fact that I have always wanted to (one day) take it all the way to Perfect Self. So... we're going monk. (http://www.hark.com/zoolander/im-going-monk-i-gotta-go-monk)

However, you raise an interesting point, so I'll look into your suggestions about the alternate Shifter traits.

[Answerer]

This is an awful class on a subpar race. Not a good combo.

Still, if you have Dragon vol. 355, the Way of the Shackled Beast is a fairly-decent ACF: you get the ability to ignore bonds (sort of like a lesser version of freedom of movement), the excellent Beast Strike feat, and at 6th level, a kind of Flurry-Pounce.

There is absolutely no reason to ever spend more than 6 levels in Monk; in fact, more than 2 is kind of crazy. Just 2 can be sort of justifiable on the low-ish end of the spectrum.

[inexorabletruth]

There is one really good reason. I want to. :smallwink: In fact, I'm probably taking this monk all the way up to lvl 20 if the campaign goes that far.

I'd like to figure out how to implement Way of the Shackled Beast. Automatically adding my claw attack to my damage when I hit with an Unarmed Strike is cool. But the whole style just feels like Longstride to me, which is frustrating, because they don't get a Slam attack. Why would you have a fast moving class that can't benefit from the style that is meant to reward chargers? This is where I'd love to add the Feral Template to Longstride, but that +1 LA stops me in my tracks. We're starting at Lvl 1.

Does anybody know how I can pair up a claw or slam attack to my Longstride Shifter? Or am I just trying to reinvent the wheel?

Monks get increased speed. And if I really wanted to, I could take the Quick Trait, Razorclaw Shifter and not burn a feat, then put my 15+2 (from racial) in DEX to keep the AC high. My HP takes a small hit, but with two Flaws, I could take:


Level 1: Fear no Binds Sacred Vow, VoPov, Knight of Stars (from VoP) and Sapphire Fist [+1 any roll/+1 Stunning Dmg and DC]
Level 2: Beast Strike, Intuitive Attack (from VoP) [WIS to Hit]
Level 3: Cobalt Charge [+2 to Charge Hit+Dmg, +2 SF Dmg and DC]
Level 4: Sanctify Ki Strike (From VoP) [+1/+1d4 Evil/Undead]
Level 6: Bonus Ability, Fist of the Heavens (From VoP), Pain Touch [+2 Stunning Fist DC/Nauseate]


Let's see. During a Shift I'd have 13+2 to STR, 17 to DEX and 17 to WIS at level 1.

So my Stunning Fist on a Charge would look like this:
+2/-3/-3 to Hit, +4 to Dmg, DC 15, AC 18
And my Flurry:
+1/+1/+1/+1 to Hit, +4 Dmg, AC 20

Which is good defense, meh offense. But at level 2, I get WIS to hit, so things get fun...

Awwww, nevermind. :smallsigh: You can't take this fighting style at level 1. :smallmad: What... the... crap?!


Finally, if she meets the listed prerequisites she gains the listed bonus. If the Shifter Monk hasn't yet met the prerequisites she doesn't gain the bonus ability, even if she meets the prerequisites at some later time.

What? WHO?! Why did they-? Who cooked up that moronic requirement?! This isn't even worth asking the DM for an exception on. What the heck? :smallfurious:

Way of the Shackled Beast is out. Screw it. I'll build a charger Longstider with Incarnum feats out the wazzoo and do just fine. Stupid freaking combat style and their stupid freaking technicalities.

[Derpldorf]

As the great Goblin Werefrog once said, "It's not easy being a monk."

.....Maybe I'm misquoting him.

[inexorabletruth]

I just don't understand why they'd make a Monk combat style specifically built for Shifters if you can't use it at level 1.

All the other combat styles work at level 1. My mind is blown.

[Vixsor Lumin]

there is one reason, and one reason only.


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35653890.jpg

[Answerer]

There is one really good reason. I want to. :smallwink: In fact, I'm probably taking this monk all the way up to lvl 20 if the campaign goes that far.
At this point, just go Wild Monk and be a little mini-druid while pretending it's a "monk" because that's what it says on the top of your character sheet. Otherwise, you've already dedicated yourself to a build that will be crippled dead-weight that will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to level 20 by your allies. There is nothing that will salvage it and it won't matter what build decisions you make, which really makes it hard for anyone to give you meaningful input.

[inexorabletruth]

you've already dedicated yourself to a build that will be crippled dead-weight

That depends on your DM, really. I'm running a campaign with only monks and they're tearing it up. In this case, there is only one caster class in the entire group, and she's playing a debuffer necromancer, and she and I are the only two players with any gaming experience. The odds that I'll be out-shined by mid-level are pretty good, but a well built Monk can still play a role in a game like this even as we approach epic levels. Anyway, I understand why you feel that way. Sometimes I think Monks belong in the Tier 6 category instead of Tier 5, but that's not what matters. I'd like to request that we keep this thread from being a Monk bashing thread. I'm not looking for updates on how bad the class is, but rather helpful suggestions on feats, combat styles, etc.

__________________________

Anyway... I added my Longstride Monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=527791). By adding the Vow of Poverty feat, I really got to sling some feats around, though I'm disappointed that I didn't get to add Improved Overrun to it, so I plan on adding ranks to Tumble. By building up Balance and Tumble, I can still move through occupied squares and difficult terrain in a charge, which will still give me options for whom I can target. This is a weak Lvl 1 build, because I focused mostly on defense (for those AoOs I'm likely to get), and I'm having reservations. Do you think I should put the 15 in STR and the 13 in DEX? Right now, I'll have a 19 AC while charging if I shift. I'll be very hard to hit. If I take a point away, it won't be a huge deal breaker, but it will add +1 to my attack and damage until I pick up Intuitive Attack at level 2.

[inexorabletruth]

So anyway, so far, I'm liking the Cliffwalk Build and the Longstride Build the most. The extra maneuverability that comes from these two shifter types can add a lot of fun to the combat.

With Longstride, I see Naruto shenanigans coming alive. I'd be zipping across the map making a tiny slash here, a stunning fist attack there. It's a great way to make sure I'm always where I'm needed in combat, ready to provide a flanking bonus or stop an opponent in his tracks. Even though my AC is the second highest with this build, I'm thinking about taking the scout position or deep rear guard. With a 40' land speed, I can charge up to 80' (2/3 of the entire battle grid) and still perform a Stunning Fist attack to stop whatever just leaped out of the bushes.

Cliffwalk has luchador written all over it. I can see her running across the ground, then up a tree, then *flip*… SCORPION GRASP! I count as charging when I fall as well, so... you know. Death from above. :belkar:

On a secondary (tertiary?) note, Beasthide looks very dramatic. I plan on taking the Saint template when I reach level 6, and this self-sacrificing defense build is perfect for that (You go on ahead! I'll hold them off!) build. I know our DM appreciates a good defense build and tends to view them as more noble than an offense build. My chances are higher for getting the template this way.

[Vixsor Lumin]

I would leave your STR and DEX scores alone for your longstride monk, since your picking up intuitive attack (that is the one i meant sorry :smallredface:) Its a much better decision in the long run and you'll only have to tough it out for one level. I am a fan of the Longstride monk from what ive seen so far, although there is a feat that you can use to increase damage on a falling charge (cant remember what its called... sorry i suck at that part) so if you want to make your cliffwalker a charging character that could work to.

[Derpldorf]

I believe your referring to either Roof Jumper from Cityscapes, or Battle Jump from UE.

[inexorabletruth]

My Cliffwalk build has Battle Jump, which not only adds a cool combat dynamic to the character, but coming from the Taer region just builds the fluff for me.

I never even thought to crack open Cityscape. The Roof Jumper feat looks good, but the feat tax is hefty, and it's a tax I just can't pay. Sacred Vow gives me gobs of feats, but they all have to be Exalted feats. It forces me to start burning feats at level 6... like the Vow of Abstinence feat. It's only there because I don't know what else to put in that slot. From level's 1-4, if I can't sleep (Insomniac flaw) the Necromancer can just cast sleep on me. My CHA score is too low for anything else except Vows, so I picked a Fortitude bonus to counteract the Insomniac flaw. Sometimes I think I should take VoA earlier, since I have to roll a DC 15 just to sleep, but that's why I took Knight of Stars. If I didn't use KoS for any attacks/dmg/checks/saves during the day, I'll just add it to my Fort Save before I go to bed and hope for the best.

[Derpldorf]

Exalted huh... I'm not too familiar with those but...

Intuitive Attack gives you Wis to Attack
Sanctify Ki strike gives you a bit more damage against evil stuff
Holy ki strike gives even more and makes em Holy
Fist of the Heavens buffs your stunning fist
Touch of golden ice gives you a pretty good contact poision.

I believe those are all either Wis or Con and a bit of BaB.

[inexorabletruth]

I have Intuitive Attack, and Touch of Golden Ice. But...

Sanctify Ki Strike requires 15 in CHA… I have a 6.
Holy Ki Strike requires Sanctify Ki Strike
Fist of the Heavens (which would be amazing) requires Sanctify Ki Strike.


To be honest, I don't understand why these Exalted feats are CHA based. Religious enlightenment and spiritual intuition have always had a wisdom theme IRL. Que sera, sera.

My wife built a human CHA based monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=527767) for the purpose of making the most out of the exalted path. But I dunno. It seems like a huge sacrifice at early levels to make a meh monk at later levels. Basically, until I start cashing in on those Exalted feats, she's just going to be a walking meatbag that can't even carry the party's stuff due to that whole VoP thing.

[Derpldorf]

Ah, well I never really used Exalted before.

[Vixsor Lumin]

serpents fang from Sandstorm could be interesting if you can fit it in. maybe instead of vow of abstinence? You burn a stunning fist attempt to extend your unarmed range by 5ft.