View Full Version : Weak Willed describes half the party.
Sunken Valley
2013-03-01, 05:16 AM
Which half? If we're going by personality, its Elan, Belkar and Varsuuvius. If we go by stats it's Roy, Haley and Belkar. Which one is implied.
Fortuna
2013-03-01, 05:21 AM
Well, Roy has at least passable Wisdom. Elan and V both have a good Will save from their class, although Elan's Wisdom is only saved from comparison with a lemming's by Belkar's even lower score. I would personally guess Belkar, Haley and Elan, not least because from a story perspective I really don't see Roy getting dominated.
...but I'll put an outside bet on Belkar, Haley, Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing.
Felyndiira
2013-03-01, 05:27 AM
I believe that Durkon is talking about will saves.
By RAW, Belkar and Haley both have low will save progressions making them more vulnerable to gaze, and neither is likely to have a good wisdom score. Roy also has a poor will save, of course, but since we know Roy is balanced in his mental stats, he likely has a decent WIS score to add to it.
Elan actually has a good will save progression, although the sheer fact that he has questionable contribution ability in combat makes him difficult to choose as a companion (plus, likely WIS penalty from his actions). V and Durkon, of course, has good will saves.
EDIT: Shadow handed by a sword sage :smallfrown:.
Idk about stats and stuff, but from the context, it's Belkar, Haley, and Elan, since Durkon asks Scruffy to get only Roy.
faustin
2013-03-01, 05:43 AM
:belkar:"One order of gluttony with a side of corruption, please."
:roy: "Yup."
:haley: "Sounds good."
:vaarsuvius: "I´ll do, in fact."
Assuming an 8 or 9 Wisdom, Elan should have a +7 Will Save. Assuming no higher than a 13 Wisdom, Haley should have a +6 Will Save. With a 1 Wisdom penalty, Belkar is sporting a lovely +3 Will. If V has 10 Wisdom, he has a Will Save of +9. I personally think Roy is sporting a Wisdom of 16 or so, (Very Good Wisdom,) which would make it +7 Will.
What we don't know is if anyone has taken Iron Will. We also don't know what types of Resistance items the party has, though I assume they all have at least +2 or +3.
Durkon would likely have asked for V, except V is lost so sending Scruffy to get V would be impossible. Roy may have a feat or better items that grant him a better save than Elan. But I think the truth is that it is more about characterization and Elan is less mentally sound and not really someone you want to rely on compared to Roy as opposed to Roy having a few points more Will than Elan.
RMS Oceanic
2013-03-01, 06:15 AM
Considering Durkon tried to get Mister Scruffy to bring Roy, I assume he's going by personality rather than class. I'd say Elan and Belkar are the ones with truly weak wills, and then Haley brings up the rear with having average-to-low will.
lol, faustin, but I'm sure Roy did it only to annoy Miko.
Anyway, Belkar is in the list (he was dominated already).
Haley, ofc, don't get a lot of will bonus from her class but probably have low wis score for NOT spotting at all.
I guess we can put Elan in there, because V's wisdom is mod-high and her class is using will save as main. Elan's wis probably low. His charisma and dex (and maybe a little bit strength) are high.
So yea, I believe that he meant Elan, Haley and Belkar.
Elan, Belkar, and Haley.
If he meant to include Roy, he wouldn't have asked Mr. Scruffy to get Roy. His evaluation of Vaarsuvius might be different if he knew about the Soul Splice.
Winter
2013-03-01, 07:49 AM
Our perspective:
Bad:
Belkar (Horrible Wis, bad save progression)
Haley (Acceptable Wis, bad save progression)
Not-so-good:
Roy (Good Wis, but bad will-save-progression)
Elan (Low Wis, good progression on Bard, probably bad progression no Dashing Swordsman)
Vaarsuvius (Probably low Wis (based on comic-events), good progression)
Durkon's perspective:
Bad:
Belkar, Haley, Elan.
Good:
Vaarsuvius (misjudgement), Roy (based on personality), Himself (probably justified).
Assuming an 8 or 9 Wisdom, Elan should have a +7 Will Save. Assuming no higher than a 13 Wisdom, Haley should have a +6 Will Save. With a 1 Wisdom penalty, Belkar is sporting a lovely +3 Will. If V has 10 Wisdom, he has a Will Save of +9. I personally think Roy is sporting a Wisdom of 16 or so, (Very Good Wisdom,) which would make it +7 Will.
And you think Elan and Belkar are only slightly below average Wisdom?
(Yes, I am aware of the Owl's Wisdom strip.)
Winter
2013-03-01, 08:45 AM
Belkar's Wisdom (outside of the based specualation of the class and level geekery) must be very abysmal. I doubt we're talking about anything higher than 6. You can forget about the Owl's Wisdom, the power of the spell was greatly exaggerated for the joke and plot to work as they should.
Elan's Wisdom has been constantly shown to be close to a mental disability (he believes about everything and anything). I doubt we're talking about a region higher than the one of Belkar.
Koo Rehtorb
2013-03-01, 10:03 AM
Roy probably has Iron Will and maybe a will boosting item or something.
CoffeeIncluded
2013-03-01, 10:07 AM
You guys forget two things about Haley:
1. Even though she has a poor will save progression and average or slightly better wisdom, there's a decent chance she could have picked up Slippery Mind at this point.
2. Unlike Belkar, we can be fairly certain that attacking the rest of the Order would be against Haley's nature, which means that every time Malack orders her to attack the order or side with Nale (which she's even less likely to do, thanks to her relationship with Elan), she gets a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Every single time. She'll roll well enough to break free eventually. Having Elan side with Nale or Tarquin against the Order would have much the same effect.
Sylian
2013-03-01, 11:46 AM
1. Even though she has a poor will save progression and average or slightly better wisdom, there's a decent chance she could have picked up Slippery Mind at this point.Based on what we know about Haley, I would guess that she has above average Int and Cha but below average Wis. And besides, even if her Wisdom score is above average, what would she do against a vampire? She can't Sneak Attack undead unless she has some sort of magical item or something that lets her do it.
ThePhantasm
2013-03-01, 11:57 AM
This is easy to tell from the strip. Durkon wants scruffy to fetch Roy, but not Elan or Haley. Belkar has already fallen to Malack's spell. So Elan, Haley, and Belkar are the weak-willed people Durkon is thinking of. Roy, Durkon, V, and Scruffy are the strong-willed people Durkon is thinking of.
Maybe you can debate whether you think Durkon is accurate or not, but I think it is pretty clear who Durkon had in mind at least.
Feddlefew
2013-03-01, 11:58 AM
That reminds me, anyone thinking Mr. Scruffy is next to be dominated? :smalleek:
Edit: topy
ThePhantasm
2013-03-01, 12:01 PM
That reminds me, anyone thing Mr. Scruffy is next to be dominated? :smalleek:
If he is, the Order is doomed.
You guys forget two things about Haley:
1. Even though she has a poor will save progression and average or slightly better wisdom, there's a decent chance she could have picked up Slippery Mind at this point.
2. Unlike Belkar, we can be fairly certain that attacking the rest of the Order would be against Haley's nature, which means that every time Malack orders her to attack the order or side with Nale (which she's even less likely to do, thanks to her relationship with Elan), she gets a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Every single time. She'll roll well enough to break free eventually. Having Elan side with Nale or Tarquin against the Order would have much the same effect.
Malack wouldn't have to order them to attack the rest of the Order. I agree that ordering Haley to attack them probably wouldn't work because it's against her nature, but ordering her to swipe their magic stuff, for example, might well work.
CoffeeIncluded
2013-03-01, 01:30 PM
She can't Sneak Attack undead unless she has some sort of magical item or something that lets her do it.
Or the penetrating strike ACF, which she might have but I doubt it.
EDIT: No, wait, she doesn't have it since she has Trap Sense, which Penetrating Strike replaces.
Malack wouldn't have to order them to attack the rest of the Order. I agree that ordering Haley to attack them probably wouldn't work because it's against her nature, but ordering her to swipe their magic stuff, for example, might well work.
Ooh boy, then he could follow up by ordering Elan to do something loud, pun-heavy, and counterproductive, Belkar to keep attacking people, and if V shows up then have her lob fireballs about randomly. It'd be a mess. :smalleek:
V is strong of will, both from a perspective of mechanics (high base save) and personality.
Consider that this is the elf who didn't trance for months when there was absolutely nothing external stopping him from taking a break. That'd take sensational willpower.
With respect to accepting the soul splice: V displayed hubris, poor judgement, short-sightedness, questionable ethics and a bad temper. From a non-mechanical perspective, though, none of those things imply a lack of willpower.
Losing control of the splices isn't such an issue, either; the IFCC confirmed that V really was making his own (poor) decisions the entire time, not being dominated. With respect to the splices escaping, there's no shame in not being able to hold onto a trio of epic-level personalities.
The thing is: if V decides something is important, he will not be easily shook.
Again from a non-mechanical perspective, I bet Elan and Haley have more willpower than Durkon would give them credit for. Durkon probably thinks that to some extent, chaotic = flighty or unreliable...
...but consider, if held and tortured for information, could you see Haley or Elan easily giving up the rest of the Order? If not, that indicates they have decent reserves of willpower themselves.
Winter
2013-03-01, 01:53 PM
With respect to accepting the soul splice: V displayed hubris, poor judgement, short-sightedness, questionable ethics and a bad temper. From a non-mechanical perspective, though, none of those things imply a lack of willpower.
While speaking of the slices, we should assume Vaarsuvius has an insanely high will (I'm not speaking of mechanics). He managed to keep first three and then two epic evil spellcasters at once under control while he faced a lot of stress. He even managed to easily cast all kinds of spells in short succession.
Barsoom
2013-03-01, 01:56 PM
Belkar's Wisdom (outside of the based specualation of the class and level geekery) must be very abysmal. I doubt we're talking about anything higher than 6. You can forget about the Owl's Wisdom, the power of the spell was greatly exaggerated for the joke and plot to work as they should.
However, Owl's Wisdom allowed him to cast a 2nd level spell. Which means after casting it his Wisdom was at least 12, ie. his original Wisdom is at least 8. And since we know he has a Wisdom penalty, that narrows it down further: Belkar's Wisdom is 8 or 9.
Raineh Daze
2013-03-01, 01:59 PM
...but consider, if held and tortured for information, could you see Haley or Elan easily giving up the rest of the Order? If not, that indicates they have decent reserves of willpower themselves.
No, but that's mostly because they're high-ish level adventurers and therefore extraordinarily used to extremely painful situations. :smallconfused:
Shale
2013-03-01, 02:02 PM
Problem: the scroll was for a third or fourth level spell, depending on whether you use the Ranger or Cleric level. And since Ranger seems the most likely, Belkar has ten freaking WIS, which is completely incompatible with his character.
Thus, his WIS score as established by game mechanics and his wisdom as established by characterization are generally treated different things. Or the Owl's Wisdom scene is dismissed as the Giant creating gross inconsistencies in the name of a joke, as he is very willing to do.
Sir_Leorik
2013-03-01, 02:03 PM
We have direct confirmation from Roy's interview with the Deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) that Roy has a decent Wisdom score. While Fighters do not have good base Will saves the way Wizards and Clerics do, if Roy has a 14 or 15 Wisdom (decent enough to make a passable Cleric at 1st level, as the Deva suggested) and given that he's about 14th level, he should have a better than even chance of resisting being Dominated (or breaking free if Malack orders him to murder Durkon).
As a Wizard with a decent Wisdom score, V would also be hard to Dominate.
Haley's Wisdom is probably somewhere between 11 and 13. She's a Rogue, so her base Will Save is equal to Roy's. She might be able to resist Malack (or break free if ordered to murder Durkon) but she has slightly worse odds than Roy.
Elan has a good base Will save as a Bard, but Elan's Wisdom is probably a 6 or 7.
Elan was able to break free from the Heavily Templated Snail's Domination in one of the bonus strips of "Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales", but Elan probably got a circumstance bonus to his Will save because of his desire to make Snail puns. If Malack ordered a dominated Elan to murder Haley Elan would probably get a similar bonus.
Belkar is probably not even trying to break free of Malack's domination, because he has not moral qualms with being ordered to murder Durkon. If he were to kill Durkon and then be freed he's just tell Roy that he was Dominated and not responsible for his actions.
:roy: "You use that excuse for every murder you commit!"
:belkar: "But this time it was true!"
Acrux
2013-03-01, 02:51 PM
Why does everyone think Elan's Wisdom/will is so low? His intelligence is below average, but in terms of making moral judgements, he's pretty good at it.
Raineh Daze
2013-03-01, 02:54 PM
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.
Morality has no impact on Wisdom, otherwise there could be no evil clerics.
SaintRidley
2013-03-01, 02:59 PM
Morality has no impact on Wisdom, otherwise there could be no evil clerics.
Why would that be? Evil is just as moral-philosophically valid as Good in a D&D universe. Good is not inherently more moral, just differently so. Of course, naming the alignments Good and Evil certainly does not help convey that aspect.
Raineh Daze
2013-03-01, 03:02 PM
Why would that be? Evil is just as moral-philosophically valid as Good in a D&D universe. Good is not inherently more moral, just differently so. Of course, naming the alignments Good and Evil certainly does not help convey that aspect.
Well, you can also have True Neutral clerics without their being committed to philosophical balance. And I see nothing in the description of wisdom to suggest that it has any bearing on alignment, at all.
Wisdom is perception, intuition, willpower, and the ability to make sensible decisions. Nothing here to do with morality.
Sir_Leorik
2013-03-01, 03:08 PM
Why does everyone think Elan's Wisdom/will is so low? His intelligence is below average, but in terms of making moral judgements, he's pretty good at it.
In the prequel book "On the Origin of PCs" the crooked innkeeper asks Elan who has a higher listen check, Elan or his mentor, the paladin Sir Francois. Elan says he does, but not much higher than Sir Francois. The Listen skill is a class skill for Bards, but not Paladins. Its also based on Wisdom, which is the casting stat for Paladins. Elan has put skill points into Listen, but his final skill bonus is reduced by his Wisdom penalty. As a result Elan's Listen skill is barely better than Sir Francois' untrained bonus.
Shale
2013-03-01, 03:10 PM
That assumes Elan has put skill points into Listen solely because it's a class skill. But as we know, Mama Lane (or whatever) told him often that cross-class training is the secret to a well-rounded life.
SaintRidley
2013-03-01, 03:27 PM
Well, you can also have True Neutral clerics without their being committed to philosophical balance. And I see nothing in the description of wisdom to suggest that it has any bearing on alignment, at all.
Wisdom is perception, intuition, willpower, and the ability to make sensible decisions. Nothing here to do with morality.
What I'm asking is if morality did have something to do with Wisdom, why would that necessitate that there would be no evil clerics?
SavageWombat
2013-03-01, 03:36 PM
I agree with the implication that Roy has Iron Will - but it's not evidence enough for the class thread.
Umberhulk
2013-03-01, 04:23 PM
Roy having a positive wisdom modifier won't compete with Elan's will bonus from class levels. Elan struggles with making wise choices, but he unintelligent more than he is unwise. The three would have to be Belkar, Haley, and Roy if its mechanics.
Roy having a positive wisdom modifier won't compete with Elan's will bonus from class levels. Elan struggles with making wise choices, but he unintelligent more than he is unwise. The three would have to be Belkar, Haley, and Roy if its mechanics.
Not necessarily. If Dashing Swordsman has a bad Will Save progression, all we would need is a 16 Wis from Roy and a 7 Wis from Elan and Roy has a higher Will Save.
skaddix
2013-03-02, 01:17 AM
Obviously he wants Roy and V. Not Elan and Haley. Not to mention Roy's sword would be pretty darn useful against the Vampire and his new anti spellcaster feat.
Obviously he wants Roy and V. Not Elan and Haley. Not to mention Roy's sword would be pretty darn useful against the Vampire and his new anti spellcaster feat.
Not to mention his sword has anti-undead properties, doesn't it?
skaddix
2013-03-02, 01:35 AM
Not to mention his sword has anti-undead properties, doesn't it?
Indeed it does.
Bulldog Psion
2013-03-02, 08:40 AM
I don't know if Durkon was doing a precise statistical analysis when he said half the party is weak-willed. I'd just say he'd consider himself, Roy, and Haley to be strong-willed, and Elan, Belkar, and Varsuuvius to be weak-willed. Based on their level of maturity.
I don't think he got out a scratch pad and worked out their Will saves before making his judgment. :smallbiggrin:
Trixie
2013-03-02, 08:52 AM
:belkar: Bad Will save, Wis penalty, but bonus from Rage, plus apparently level higher than rest.
:haley: Bad Will save, Wis normal, maybe equal to above.
:roy: Bad Will save, Wis good, but frankly, even with 16 Wis it's just 10% more likely to save. Also, level loss.
:elan: Good/Bad Will save (Bard/DS), Wis huge penalty, worse than above three.
:vaarsuvius: Good Will save, Wis penalty, likely Roy level.
:durkon: Good Will save, Wis being main stat.
Frankly, 5/6 of OotS have bad Will saves, Malack should be able to dominate everyone but Durkon easily. His dominate is what, at least DC [16+Malack's Cha]?
Durkon would have said "...fetch Roy and Haley and leave Elan" instead of "fetch just Roy" if he was classifying Haley as strong-willed.
RossN
2013-03-02, 09:00 AM
Durkon would have said "...fetch Roy and Haley and leave Elan" instead of "fetch just Roy" if he was classifying Haley as strong-willed.
I agree. I don't think Haley is exceptionally weak willed but while her Intelligence is clearly above average I haven't seen evidence she has a lot of Wisdom.
Clertar
2013-03-02, 09:15 AM
Some people here assume that Roy has average WIS, but we have WoG that his WIS is very good: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493
So let's make some numbers: the OOTS has six members. /2 that is 3, so Durkon probably meant that 3 are "weak willed". We can safely assume him and V to be decently willed (V has low-average WIS, but good will save), and among the other 4
:belkar: <=9 (C&LG)
:elan: <10 (C&LG)
:roy: 14+ (C&LG), also "very good" according to the Giant
:haley: unknown, but substantially lower than Roy's (the mindflayer saw her "brain taste" as very unbalanced, pointing at CHA as being by far her highest mental stat; compare with Elan's also-sweet Coke brain), + bad progression
we can see that Roy is clearly the best candidate to join the "decent willed half" of the OOTS, just as Durkon assumed :smallbiggrin:
That leaves Elan, Haley and Belkar as the weak willed half of the party.
Trixie
2013-03-02, 09:30 AM
we can see that Roy is clearly the best candidate to join the "decent willed half" of the OOTS, just as Durkon assumed :smallbiggrin:
D&D doesn't work that way. Let's look at numbers from geekery thread:
Roy: 12+ level Fighter, Wis 14+. Let's assume Fighter 14, for +4 Will base save, +2 from Wis. Total: +6 save.
Belkar: lev 16, Wis ~9 (no resurrection level loss, adventuring while Roy was idle). Let's assume Ranger 15/Barbarian 1, for +5 Will base save, -1 from Wis, but +2 from Rage.
Oops, "weak willed" Belkar has the exact same save as Roy.
Winter
2013-03-02, 09:33 AM
D&D doesn't work that way. Let's look at numbers from geekery thread:
The geekery thread has two limitations: First, it does not have to map what actually is going on with the characters and second, it can only list what we have evidence for in the comic. In regard to stats, that evidence is not-existing for many cases - and Roy's Wis is one of them.
sam79
2013-03-02, 09:38 AM
In regard to stats, that evidence is not-existing for many cases - and Roy's Wis is one of them.
From memory, doesn't the deva who assesses Roy for the afterlife say he has a decent Wisdom, high enough to be able to pull of being a cleric? That's got to strongly suggest (not prove, of course) a pretty high score, or at the very least above average.
Trixie
2013-03-02, 09:42 AM
The geekery thread has two limitations: First, it does not have to map what actually is going on with the characters and second, it can only list what we have evidence for in the comic. In regard to stats, that evidence is not-existing for many cases - and Roy's Wis is one of them.
They have evidence on Roy's Wis from Rich's post, but frankly, it doesn't matter. Bonus from Wisdom is so small that even Roy possessing genius Wis of 16 adds merely +1, or 5% to save. What matters is that Fighter, Ranger and Rogue have same base Will saves, and only Durkon has stat bonus significantly impacting his Will save. In fact, Durkon's Will save outweighs Roy's, bonuses and all, even before we factor his Wisdom bonus into it, so there is absolute no way for Roy to be in the same category. Durkon's Will save is easily double to triple that of a Fighter, and he didn't took level loss, too.
Winter
2013-03-02, 10:26 AM
From memory, doesn't the deva who assesses Roy for the afterlife say he has a decent Wisdom, high enough to be able to pull of being a cleric?
Yes, correct. But we have no idea if that means 12 or 14 or 16. Even 12 is enough for a cleric, with items and stats from level increates you are easily making it to 16 (and as such can cast higher spells than most clerics in the world).
They have evidence on Roy's Wis from Rich's post, but frankly, it doesn't matter.
Rich's post says he has some decent (or good?) will. We have no idea what that means in regard to rules. 12? 14? 16? All could reasonably get argued for, but we don't know. Roy's personality shown in the comic indicates 14+ and Int 16+, but... well, who knows?
I also agree with the rest you wrote.
Tragak
2013-03-02, 11:14 AM
Personally, I get the impression that if Roy's WIS was 15+, the deva would've said "amazing," not "decent," so 12-14 seems more likely.
Personally, I get the impression that if Roy's WIS was 15+, the deva would've said "amazing," not "decent," so 12-14 seems more likely.
Actually, saying someone would have made a decent cleric with 16 Wisdom seems entirely reasonable. Casters having an 18 in their primary casting stat seems perfectly normal in OOTS verse. A 16 would, be comparison, not be great. (Note: The Giant has said that Roy has very good wisdom.)
Dr.Epic
2013-03-02, 02:20 PM
Which half? If we're going by personality, its Elan, Belkar and Varsuuvius. If we go by stats it's Roy, Haley and Belkar. Which one is implied.
I'm sorry but what?!?! Roy is the most broken party member. He has no dump stats.
I'm sorry but what?!?! Roy is the most broken party member. He has no dump stats.
Roy has amazing stats, but I can't call someone broken who has 13 levels of fighter and took Endurance and Weapon Focus.
Stormlock
2013-03-02, 02:43 PM
This seems REALLY simple to me. Lets go down the list:
Roy: Obviously has good wisdom, and more importantly, manages to not murder Elan or Belkar or his father, or back down in the face of an epic level lich riding a zombie dragon offering him a chance to live.
Elan: Has been dominated before, by far weaker magic. (Ok, Suggested, but still.) Requires 100 foot tall flaming letters to recognize evil. Couldn't figure out Therkla's 'secret' identity. Pretty sure he has the combined wis/int of a turnip. Thank the gods he can cast spells with Cha and bards get a ton of skills on level up.
Belkar: Nuff' said.
Halley: Was rendered mute by the loss of her treasure for a very long time, and only managed to tell Elan she was in love with him when both their lives were in danger because of the omission.
V: Controlled the wills of epic spellcasters of radically different alignments in a situation that would probably make Halley, if not Roy pick up a few kilonazis. Has since radically changed his behaviour to be more mature and measured in his actions.
It's obvious that Roy, V, and Durkon are not the ones qualified as 'weak willed'. V's current BSOD after being confronted with the draketooth clan notwithstanding (I don't imagine Roy or Durkon would fare much better with the sudden realization they had inadvertantly massacred hundreds of innocent humanoids tbh).
Edit: Put another way, consider that wisdom is a combination of willpower and judgment/perception. These things need not be equivalent. Halley clearly has better judgment than willpower, while V clearly has better willpower than judgment. The only other two tossups are Roy and Elan, and Durkon clearly thinks Roy has decent willpower, which leaves Elan filling the 3rd slot for weak willed mind control bait.
Dr.Epic
2013-03-02, 03:02 PM
Roy has amazing stats, but I can't call someone broken who has 13 levels of fighter and took Endurance and Weapon Focus.
The really sad thing Roy's still the most powerful member in the entire Order.:smalleek:
Koo Rehtorb
2013-03-02, 03:29 PM
This is like the epitome of pointless over analyzing.
It is 100% clear that he was referring to Roy and himself as strong willed; Elan, Haley and Belkar as weak willed; and probably V as strong willed too (but that's not completely clear).
Raineh Daze
2013-03-02, 03:37 PM
The really sad thing Roy's still the most powerful member in the entire Order.:smalleek:
I think that honour actually goes to V, when she isn't in some manner incapacitated. That happens a lot, since otherwise fights would end very quickly.
This is like the epitome of pointless over analyzing.
It is 100% clear that he was referring to Roy and himself as strong willed; Elan, Haley and Belkar as weak willed; and probably V as strong willed too (but that's not completely clear).
Well, without including V, it's not half the party, is it? :smalltongue:
The really sad thing Roy's still the most powerful member in the entire Order.:smalleek:
I disagree. Roy gets his butt handed to him on a regular basis. In fact, I think Roy is one of the weakest. V is the strongest. He gives the group the most utility and has single handedly won many difficult encounters, (Pit Fiend, dragon.) Not to mention he did more in the battle for Azure City than the rest of the Order combined to the power of four. All the elementals he dismissed, the hole in the wall he held, etc.
Next, is Durkon. He took out the Druid/the trees, for one. Things like Holy Word, break enchantment, etc. etc. Growing giant and smashing things. Durkon actually handles himself as good or better in melee when he is buffed up. Not to mention how he heals everyone all the time.
Third on the list is Haley. I really, really doubt Roy could have taken on the entire thieve's guild like Haley did. She is great at picking people off. Her damage output is AT LEAST double Roy's on rapid shot sneak attacks which she usually gets off. And she is a heck of a leader. Not to mention her skillmonkeyness. Bluff, search, disable device, all the stealthy skills, SUPER useful.
When it comes to sheer numbers power, Belkar is actually stronger than Roy. HOW he is, via the rules, I have no idea. But his damage output is insane, and probably so is his armor class. The pile of hobgoblins he killed was quite literally in the upper hundreds. Not to mention how he just owned all the thieves guild cronies in seconds. But his wild card nature and sub-par tactics mean that I would say he is about as powerful as Roy, not more.
Elan could be stronger if he knew how to use his spells effectively. But he doesn't so he has the last spot on the list.
Koo Rehtorb
2013-03-02, 04:27 PM
When it comes to sheer numbers power, Belkar is actually stronger than Roy. HOW he is, via the rules, I have no idea. But his damage output is insane, and probably so is his armor class. The pile of hobgoblins he killed was quite literally in the upper hundreds.
They were all probably like level 1. Belkar's amazing at finding fights he dramatically outlevels that make him look good.
Raineh Daze
2013-03-02, 04:29 PM
They were all probably like level 1. Belkar's amazing at finding fights he dramatically outlevels that make him look good.
He's still regularly doing that using... a pair of daggers. He also stabbed Durkon pretty badly in 874.
They were all probably like level 1. Belkar's amazing at finding fights he dramatically outlevels that make him look good.
Belkar can still kill things remarkably quickly. Sure, it's all he's good for. But he is good at it. The scene with the thieve's guild is pretty indicative. Besides, Belkar has a few levels on Roy. At least a couple. So there's that.
A Tad Insane
2013-03-02, 04:55 PM
I forget were, but some one once said Roy had enough WIS to be a decent cleric
hamishspence
2013-03-02, 05:02 PM
That would be the Deva reviewing Roy:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html
theinsulabot
2013-03-03, 02:04 PM
Haley really isn't that great a leader. At all. The whole party splitting up and the months of effectively wasted effort are more or less a result of her just not being able to manage the order to Roy's caliber.
There may even be commentary to that effect, but don't quote me on that.
Haley really isn't that great a leader. At all. The whole party splitting up and the months of effectively wasted effort are more or less a result of her just not being able to manage the order to Roy's caliber.
There may even be commentary to that effect, but don't quote me on that.
I don't think the Order splitting up can be attributed to Haley.
theinsulabot
2013-03-03, 02:38 PM
The original split is debateable. Not wrong, but debateable, however the length of time it took to regroup is not. It took her 3 months to find a spell caster with a scroll to Sending durkon. 3 months. Because she was ******* around waiting for her prince to come back, by her own admission at least partially because she was paralyzed with fear he would turn up dead, which incidentally left her getting respelled with cloister because she wouldn't get off her ass.
One of the very clear messages of dont split the party was the order needs to Roy to be effective.
Chantelune
2013-03-03, 02:41 PM
Haley is a good second in command, which means she has at least leading capabilities, but she's not good at being leader, mostly because she don't want to be. Being held responsible for the rest of the group's actions is not something she want to deal with.
The party splitting at AC is not her fault. She did the right call at the time, going back to get Roy's body and allowing Belkar to follow her. It's partly her fault, though, that the order did not regroup sooner as she didn't want to leave AC based on the very slim chance that Elan might come back or learning that he died too. She needed Celia to push her on the right direction to finally get a move. Frankly, had she left AC as soon as she noticed the boat away, she might not have evade the cloister effect, but at least she would have been able to get to Cliffport, find a cleric and get either a raise for Roy, a sending to Durkon or both in just a few weeks.
She could be a good leader, she clearly have the potential, especially when it comes to tactics (she was the one who understood that all three Xykon were fake) and is well aware of her surroundings (she only understood that Shojo was faking senility). But she's not because she think too much like a rogue and don't always manage to put her feelings aside.
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