Runestaffs and UMD

[Allanimal]

Runestaffs from MiC allow a caster to use up their own spell slots to cast spells "known" by the staff. presumably these are spells unknown by the caster, otherwise what's the point.

how does this work with UMD?
Unless I missed it, I didn't see rules for this printed in MIC.
I think it would probably work like UMD-ing a scroll, but possibly without the minimum caster caster stat requirement. The description of how Runestaffs work implies, to me at least, the typical min caster stat is not needed.

So, am I missing something or is there clarification elsewhere?

[Aracor]

The only reasonable interpretation is that it doesn't. A runestaff requires you to expend a spell slot of your own, and the staff simply converts that spell into a different spell. Without the ability to cast in the first place, there's nothing to convert.

This may not be RAW, but it's how I'd play it, and basically all but the most permissive DMs would go as well.

[mattie_p]

UMD: Emulate a class feature, DC 20. "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

Spellcasting is a class feature. The example in the PHB is of a rogue emulating turn undead to activate an item, so this should work. You just need a check of 20 + whatever minimum class level you need to cast the spell level you want to emulate casting.

For shenanigans, use UMD to emulate the class feature of a rapid progression spellcasting PrC, like Ur-Priest.

[Miriad]

Spellcasting is a class feature. The example in the PHB is of a rogue emulating turn undead to activate an item, so this should work. You just need a check of 20 + whatever minimum class level you need to cast the spell level you want to emulate casting.


I double checked this and it is correct. The example in PHB activates an item that expends a turn undead by emulating it with UMD.

[Curmudgeon]

I double checked this and it is correct. The example in PHB activates an item that expends a turn undead by emulating it with UMD.
That's not exactly what it says.
For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead.
"Channeling positive energy" just means the Cleric has chosen the option to convert spells spontaneously to Cures, and to turn rather than rebuke undead. Unless the item specifically requires a turn undead use to activate, just channeling positive energy (without actually expending such a turn attempt) should allow activating the item. Expending a daily use of an ability is something that needs to be explicit. Heck, a Rogue with the Holy Stalker special ability (Complete Champion, page 51) can channel positive energy into every sneak attack they make against undead, without ever having any daily turn uses to expend.

[Carth]

UMD: Emulate a class feature, DC 20. "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

Spellcasting is a class feature. The example in the PHB is of a rogue emulating turn undead to activate an item, so this should work. You just need a check of 20 + whatever minimum class level you need to cast the spell level you want to emulate casting.

For shenanigans, use UMD to emulate the class feature of a rapid progression spellcasting PrC, like Ur-Priest.

This is not correct, staffs, runestaffs, and domain staffs are spell trigger items, and thus only need a DC 20 UMD check to operate. Confusingly, you need to look under the "use wand" entry to learn this.


Use a Wand

Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

On second thought, runestaffs and domain staffs function as spell completion items due to the somantic and verbal components being required. Which means is uses the rules for using scrolls instead. The below point still stands, though.

So the emulate class feature section of UMD is not applicable with regards to staffs. This is also why your caster level when using a staff isn't your UMD check-20, like so many people want to believe.

[mattie_p]

This is not correct, staffs, runestaffs, and domain staffs are spell trigger items, and thus only need a DC 20 UMD check to operate. Confusingly, you need to look under the "use wand" entry to learn this.

On second thought, runestaffs and domain staffs function as spell completion items due to the somantic and verbal components being required. Which means is uses the rules for using scrolls instead. The below point still stands, though.

So the emulate class feature section of UMD is not applicable with regards to staffs. This is also why your caster level when using a staff isn't your UMD check-20, like so many people want to believe.

Actually, here is (some of) the text from Runestaffs, from MiC p224:


By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list.

The underlined is what is critical to activate the runestaff. So, actually, a rogue might have to have two separate UMD checks, one to emulate a class feature to "expend" (via UMD) an arcane spell, the other to have the spell appear on the caster's spell list.

Runestaffs also require material components, which make them even more complicated. They are weird.

[Carth]

The underlined is what is critical to activate the runestaff. So, actually, a rogue might have to have two separate UMD checks, one to emulate a class feature to "expend" (via UMD) an arcane spell, the other to have the spell appear on the caster's spell list.


That is also not correct


Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Ergo, you can't expend a spell to power a runestaff or domain staff with UMD, you can only pretend to, and pretending to is not sufficient as Curmudgeon pointed out in a separate scenario. Similarly, you can't UMD an item that grants an additional use of wild shape to gain a use of wild shape when you don't have wild shape as a class feature.

[mattie_p]

Ergo, you can't expend a spell to power a runestaff or domain staff with UMD, you can only pretend to, and pretending to is not sufficient as Curmudgeon pointed out in a separate scenario. Similarly, you can't UMD an item that grants an additional use of wild shape to gain a use of wild shape when you don't have wild shape as a class feature.

Wait, what? The UMD lets you pretend you expended a spell. Just like it lets you pretend you channeled positive energy. You don't really channel positive energy, you just make like you do and fool the item. You don't really expend a spell, you just make like you do and fool the item. You just have to fool it twice.

[Carth]

"Channeling positive energy" doesn't expend anything, as Curmudgeon pointed out. Those words don't even really have any game meaning, they're just used in the fluff of lots of different abilities. This is entirely different from being required to sacrifice a spell slot.

[Larkas]

UMD: Emulate a class feature, DC 20. "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

If the Runestaff merely required that you had an available spell slot, like Reserve Feats, UMD would work. As it stands, it requires you to use up a spell slot, which is using a class feature. Ergo, it shouldn't work.

[mattie_p]

If the Runestaff merely required that you had an available spell slot, like Reserve Feats, UMD would work. As it stands, it requires you to use up a spell slot, which is using a class feature. Ergo, it shouldn't work.

Emulation of a class feature is one of the appropriate uses of umd.

[Larkas]

Emulation of a class feature is one of the appropriate uses of umd.

You're not required merely to have spell slots. You effectively have to spend them. That is expressly vetoed by UMD's description.

[mattie_p]

You're not required merely to have spell slots. You effectively have to spend them. That is expressly vetoed by UMD's description.

If you can effectively spend turn undead attempts, you can effectively spend spell slots. Please show where this is not the case?

[Larkas]

If you can effectively spend turn undead attempts, you can effectively spend spell slots. Please show where this is not the case?

You don't have to spend turn undead attempts in the example. You have to channel positive energy. Unless you're playing Pathfinder, that is effectively meaningless, as that is not a class feature.

Even if it wasn't the case, it wouldn't be the first case of fluff/crunch disconnection. And, AFAIK, crunch usually wins.

[mattie_p]

You don't have to spend turn undead attempts in the example. You have to channel positive energy. Unless you're playing Pathfinder, that is effectively meaningless, as that is not a class feature.

Even if it wasn't the case, it wouldn't be the first case of fluff/crunch disconnection. And, AFAIK, crunch usually wins.

We're not talking pathfinder. And regardless, Curmudgeon posted the pertinent PHB text:


For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead.

The normal way for a paladin or cleric to channel positive energy as if turning undead is to expend a turn undead attempt. However, this can be emulated via UMD.

[Carth]

Continuing Larkas' point, examples are not RAW. Which is good, because WotC examples regularly violate RAW in lots of different places with its examples (prestige classes, spell descriptions, feat descriptions...).

[Larkas]

Again, even if that's the case, it's merely crunch/fluff disconnection. The crunch says it can't be done, hence, it can't be done.

Don't get me wrong here, I'd love to use Runestaves as a Rogue, all the power to the lower tier classes, but the rules don't support that.

EDIT: Simple example:

Jozan uses Symbol of Pain

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG291_WEB.jpg

[mattie_p]

Continuing Larkas' point, examples are not RAW. Which is good, because WotC examples regularly violate RAW in lots of different places with its examples (prestige classes, spell descriptions, feat descriptions...).

This example is not a sample NPC, nor anything similar. This is an example that is contained within the rule text of PHB which demonstrates a sample use of UMD. Are you now telling me that a artificer cannot use UMD to emulate turn undead in order to construct a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MiC)?


Again, even if that's the case, it's merely crunch/fluff disconnection. The crunch says it can't be done, hence, it can't be done.

Don't get me wrong here, I'd love to use Runestaves as a Rogue, all the power to the lower tier classes, but the rules don't support that.

EDIT: Simple example:

Jozan uses Symbol of Pain

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG291_WEB.jpg

Please, we are not discussing the burning hate here. I have attempted to demonstrate by quoting rules where it is permitted. Please demonstrate via the rules that rogues (or monks, or whatever) cannot use runestaves via UMD.

[Larkas]

This example is not a sample NPC, nor anything similar. This is an example that is contained within the rule text of PHB which demonstrates a sample use of UMD. Are you now telling me that a artificer cannot use UMD to emulate turn undead in order to construct a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MiC)?

I'm not sure. When spells are listed in a magic item's crafting prerequisites, they are cast in the item's creation process. However, turn undead is not a spell, so I don't know if it is used up during creation or not. If it isn't used up, that is, if the creator merely needs to have the turn undead ability, then sure, an Artificer can emulate it with UMD. If it does need to be used up during creation, then no, an Artificer cannot emulate it.


Please, we are not discussing the burning hate here. I have attempted to demonstrate by quoting rules where it is permitted. Please demonstrate via the rules that rogues (or monks, or whatever) cannot use runestaves via UMD.

I'm not discussing Burning Hate. I quite frankly find that theory ludicrous (i.e.: any particular DM might want to use it, but it's certainly not the developers' intent). I'm just demonstrating that D&D is quite famous for fluff/crunch disconnection, and the description of UMD seems to be such a case. If the description really presupposes the use of turn undead as a means of channeling positive energy, then the fluff goes directly against the crunch.

Furthermore, I already quoted the piece of ruling saying why Runestaves can't be used with UMD. In fact, I quoted the part of your post that said it.

[Carth]

I'm not referring to sample NPCs, I'm referring to mage armor being described as an abjuration, unarmed BAB still being mentioned in 3.5 books, etc. You don't need to look hard for lots of rule examples conflicting with the actual rules, I'm sure the dysfunctional rules thread contains all the examples you could hope for. All the same, as has been pointed out repeatedly, the example also does not expend a use of turn undead. So in addition to examples not being RAW anyway, this example doesn't even support the argument you're trying to make.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think UMD should allow you to pretend you have the spells on your list, but you still need to actually expend spell slots to use it.

This is very useful to a class like the Beguiler, who has a limited set of spells and UMD as a class skill.

[mattie_p]

In fact, I quoted the part of your post that said it.

What you quoted (and highlighted) was where I said "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." In other words, UMD does not let you cast spells into a runestaff. I agree. But you omitted the next sentence which was also quoted.


It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

A class feature of wizards and clerics is not only possessing spell slots, but being able to cast them. You are emulating the casting of the spell, as if you could cast the spell. You can't really, but you fake it anyway. You may not have a clue, and you may not have style, but everything you lack you make up in denial. (Of course, nymphs and other species possess racial casting, I guess you could emulate a race, if that floats your boat better).


I'm not referring to sample NPCs, I'm referring to mage armor being described as an abjuration, unarmed BAB still being mentioned in 3.5 books, etc. You don't need to look hard for lots of rule examples conflicting with the actual rules, I'm sure the dysfunctional rules thread contains all the examples you could hope for. All the same, as has been pointed out repeatedly, the example also does not expend a use of turn undead. So in addition to examples not being RAW anyway, this example doesn't even support the argument you're trying to make.

I am not stating that the example expends a use of turn undead. As I told Larkas, "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." So you pretend really hard and it seems like you used turn undead for that item. And the item is somehow convinced that you did, even though you didn't, and works for you.


I think UMD should allow you to pretend you have the spells on your list, but you still need to actually expend spell slots to use it. Just show me where it says you actually have to expend spell slots, instead of pretend really hard (via UMD), and I'm sold.

UMD is one of those things that is really that powerful.

Guys, this is a fantasy game where it is all made up anyway, do we now have to pretend that the rules make sense when they don't (for real life, anyway?) Can I just UMD the rules?

[Larkas]

I'll try to wrap my head around what you're saying. Let's analyse that piece of ruling again.


UMD: Emulate a class feature, DC 20. "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

Okay, on Runestaves:


A runestaff allows its wielder to use her own arcane energy to generate magical effects. Typically, a runestaff has anywhere from two to five spells. By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list. The spell is treated exactly as if the wielder cast the spell herself, including caster level, save DC, and any other effects related to the spell. Unless stated otherwise in the runestaff’s description, each spell can be cast from a runestaff three times per day.

So, UMD will let you emulate having a spell on your list, no doubts about it. I guess it will even let you emulate level and class. It would let you emulate being able to cast spells, but... Would it let you expend spell slots, when the basic UMD ruling says that the skill does not let you use an emulated class feature?

Hmmm... I guess that if you take a very broad approach to it, it would make sense. You are emulating having used a spell slot. You are pretending to have used a spell slot, not actually using a fictitious spell slot. That falls a little off from UMD's description: theoretically, it lets you emulate class features (and race, etc), but it says nothing about emulating actions.

Alright, I think I can understand what you're saying. I still think that, RAW, it is a fundamentally misguided opinion. But RAW isn't some holy cow: you can rule otherwise in your games, and it would certainly make sense. Like I said, I'd love to see a Rogue using a Runestaff, even if s/he had to roll UMD twice.

Bottomline, I don't think we'll reach an agreement about what the rule really says here, so, if you don't mind, I'll respectfully bow out of the discussion. :smallsmile:

[Carth]

I am not stating that the example expends a use of turn undead. As I told Larkas, "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." So you pretend really hard and it seems like you used turn undead for that item. And the item is somehow convinced that you did, even though you didn't, and works for you.


This is not consistent with UMD's rules. Lots of magic items say "this only functions if the wearer/wielder has such and such ability." Such items typically do not require the actual use of the ability to function, and this is where UMD comes in. Expending a spell slot unambiguously constitutes using a class feature, which is a step above merely possessing a class feature. For instance, a tabard of valor (Complete Champion) requires the wearer have mettle in order for it to grant improved mettle. At issue seem to be the following two sentences:



This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

The tabard merely requires that you possess mettle, not that you use mettle. Therefore, it's fine to UMD the tabard for improved mettle. A runestaff, on the other hand, requires the use of a class ability to function, and a strict reading of both sentences makes it clear UMD cannot be used in this case. You are wrongly trying to use the second sentence as leverage, when it only proves you wrong further. It only says that it allows use of a magic item as though you possess a class feature, which does not in any way whatsoever imply that it allows you to activate something as though you were using a class feature. They're different things, and one does not imply the other, especially given the presence of the first sentence. It is therefore impossible to use it without actually expending a spell slot.

Edit: and forget rogues, with a wizard's ability to break WBL, this is an easy way for them to get infinite spells if they can UMD runestaffs without using a slot. :smallbiggrin: Edit2: heck, runestaffs allow you to apply metamagic to their spells, so a WBL breaking wizard could effectively become a spontaneous caster.

[mattie_p]

I think the major problem that you seem to have, Carth, is that the character gets something for nothing (other than the cost of the item). There are plenty of examples of characters getting something for the cost of an item. Casters get metamagic rods. Feats are available via gp cost (ring of evasion, oytugh hole, etc). Heck, a character could UMD a reliquary holy symbol to emulate having (but not expending) turn undead, gain 4 uses, and use those to power divine feats. I really don't see the problem here, other than "mundane classes can't have nice things" but I don't really want to turn this into a tier discussion.


Edit: and forget rogues, with a wizard's ability to break WBL, this is an easy way for them to get infinite spells if they can UMD runestaffs without using a slot. :smallbiggrin: Edit2: heck, runestaffs allow you to apply metamagic to their spells, so a WBL breaking wizard could effectively become a spontaneous caster.

They already can. Spontaneous divination, wands or staffs that they create, scrolls they create, etc. Wizards can break the game in so many ways they don't even need to be brought into this particular discussion.

[Carth]

I think the major problem that you seem to have, Carth, is that the character gets something for nothing (other than the cost of the item). There are plenty of examples of characters getting something for the cost of an item. Casters get metamagic rods. Feats are available via gp cost (ring of evasion, oytugh hole, etc). Heck, a character could UMD a reliquary holy symbol to emulate having (but not expending) turn undead, gain 4 uses, and use those to power divine feats. I really don't see the problem here, other than "mundane classes can't have nice things" but I don't really want to turn this into a tier discussion.



They already can. Spontaneous divination, wands or staffs that they create, scrolls they create, etc. Wizards can break the game in so many ways they don't even need to be brought into this particular discussion.

While the ramifications of your interpretation are indeed troubling in some circumstances (in the same way T1s aren't inherently troubling), I assure you that I'm am arguing the position that I am because I believe it's correct, not because it's results oriented.

[HunterOfJello]

There was a thread about this a while back (multiple ones likely).


The general RAW consensus ended up being that UMD could enable you to use the device, but it wouldn't do anything because it didn't have anything powering it.


A separate consensus, which included myself, thought that if a person used both Arcane Spells and UMD, they could use a Runestaff to cast spells that weren't on their own spell list. They could emulate having the spell on their class spell list and then power it with some other spell to make the Teleport/Fireball/Whatever pop out. This would be a useful option for Beguilers and the like, who really got stiffed when these items came out. (Wizards and Sorcerers were obviously the arcane spellcasters who needed a "more spontaneous spells per day" boost.)

[Allanimal]

Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion.

This came up in the game I DM when the party wizard died, leaving the warlock as the only PC who had a chance of arcane casting via UMD. She can do wands no problem, but was looking into higher spell level options, and scrolls of higher than 4th level not trivial to UMD at her level & stats. It looks like runestaffs are out...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In order to use a runestaff, you must attune yourself to it as part
of your preparation or readying of arcane spells. You can't attune
yourself to more than one runestaff at a time; attuning yourself
to a second runestaff breaks your previous attunement.
Let's say you make a DC 21 UMD check when you attune yourself to a Runestaff. You're now attuned to it as though you have one level in every spellcasting class, and thus you treat each spell on the runestaff as though it's on your own class spell list for as long as you remain attuned to it. It looks to me like there's no need to make individual checks when activating it, since you've already tricked it into thinking its spells are on your class spell list.

It's like if you combine a Circlet of Persuasion and Circlet of Blasting into a single item, and add a class restriction so that only a Cleric can wear or activate it. You make a UMD check to put it on, and now you effectively fulfill all of that item's class restrictions as long as you wear it, so you can activate it freely without making another check.

[mattie_p]

Let's say you make a DC 21 UMD check when you attune yourself to a Runestaff. You're now attuned to it as though you have one level in every spellcasting class, and thus you treat each spell on the runestaff as though it's on your own class spell list for as long as you remain attuned to it. It looks to me like there's no need to make individual checks when activating it, since you've already tricked it into thinking its spells are on your class spell list.

It's like if you combine a Circlet of Persuasion and Circlet of Blasting into a single item, and add a class restriction so that only a Cleric can wear or activate it. You make a UMD check to put it on, and now you effectively fulfill all of that item's class restrictions as long as you wear it, so you can activate it freely without making another check.

I think we're all good with that part, the problematic part is:


By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list

[Carth]

Let's say you make a DC 21 UMD check when you attune yourself to a Runestaff. You're now attuned to it as though you have one level in every spellcasting class, and thus you treat each spell on the runestaff as though it's on your own class spell list for as long as you remain attuned to it. It looks to me like there's no need to make individual checks when activating it, since you've already tricked it into thinking its spells are on your class spell list.

It's like if you combine a Circlet of Persuasion and Circlet of Blasting into a single item, and add a class restriction so that only a Cleric can wear or activate it. You make a UMD check to put it on, and now you effectively fulfill all of that item's class restrictions as long as you wear it, so you can activate it freely without making another check.

Not quite, but hitting 21 on UMD isn't too difficult, so the following shouldn't present much of a problem anyway:


If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think we're all good with that part, the problematic part is:

You've left off the most important part:

By expending a prepared arcane spell or
arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or
lower from the runestaffs list, as long as that spell also appears
on the wielder's class spell list.
You've already fulfilled the last part by making that DC 21 UMD check to emulate the class spell list on which a given spell is found. Because you fulfill that portion, you may activate it freely using your own arcane spell slots.

This does not permit a character with no arcane spell slots to activate a Runestaff, but you don't have to roll a separate check for each spell every time you want to cast from it.