Mithril Weapons

[White_Drake]

As it stands, mithril weapons are virtually worthless. I was wondering, what if mithril weapons reduced the weight class of the weapon by one, i.e. a mithril longsword would be considered a light weapon. How would this affect things? People relying on weapon finesse would like it, although I don't know how much, and doppelhanders would take a hit, but I don't think they use mithril weapons anyway. Two weapon fighters will like it. So far as I can tell, the only difference is a bit more damage for some fighting styles. What am I missing?

[Fouredged Sword]

The existence of Faecraft to do the exact same thing, but also with adimantium weapons.

[Xenogears]

Only two things wrong I can think of.

1) What happens to light weapons? If they go down a size they are unwieldable.

2) It might lead to the point where everyone (or nearly) has a mithril Large sized 2-handed weapon (adding an extra d6 dmg isn't great but if it only costs a few thousand it's a no-brainer at high levels).

[Tsriel]

As it stands, mithril weapons are virtually worthless. I was wondering, what if mithril weapons reduced the weight class of the weapon by one, i.e. a mithril longsword would be considered a light weapon. How would this affect things? People relying on weapon finesse would like it, although I don't know how much, and doppelhanders would take a hit, but I don't think they use mithril weapons anyway. Two weapon fighters will like it. So far as I can tell, the only difference is a bit more damage for some fighting styles. What am I missing?

There have been times that I have so desperately wished mithril weapons did make normal one handed weapons into a light catagory.


Only two things wrong I can think of.

1) What happens to light weapons? If they go down a size they are unwieldable.

2) It might lead to the point where everyone (or nearly) has a mithril Large sized 2-handed weapon (adding an extra d6 dmg isn't great but if it only costs a few thousand it's a no-brainer at high levels).

You could duelwield longswords for the bigger damage die and still have a respectable crit range. I don't think it would work for 2-handed weapons simply because of the shear size of them. It might make the weapon lighter, but it doesn't nessessarily make the weapon any less cumbersome to handle. We are talking about a weapon that's on average 5.5m in length. Light weapons forged in mithril still count as light. It doesn't change weapon size (which affects damage dice)

[Karnith]

Well, using mithral one-handed weapons like this would make them ineligible for extra damage from Power Attack, which is a downside.

EDIT:

We are talking about a weapon that's on average 5.5m in length.
I think that you may have your units of measurement mixed up here, as awesome as it would be to have a weapon that's about twenty feet long.

[Tsriel]

Well, using mithral one-handed weapons like this would make them ineligible for extra damage from Power Attack, which is a downside.

EDIT:

I think that you may have your units of measurement mixed up here, as awesome as it would be to have a weapon that's about twenty feet long.

D'oh, good catch. I meant 2.5m. Dat numberpad... :smallredface:

[White_Drake]

The existence of Faecraft to do the exact same thing, but also with adimantium weapons.

Actually, I made certain to check feycraft before I posted, and this is slightly different.


I don't think it would work for 2-handed weapons simply because of the shear size of them. It might make the weapon lighter, but it doesn't nessessarily make the weapon any less cumbersome to handle. We are talking about a weapon that's on average 5.5m in length.

Although Gavinfoxx could make a more informed defense (hint, hint), I'm fairly certain that two handed weapons are not at all cumbersome when used properly.

Isn't the thing about wielding a large weapon as a smaller medium weapon actually a variant rule from the DMG? I think that simply not allowing that would eliminate grabbing mithril for extra d6s.

[KillianHawkeye]

In Pathfinder, mithril weapons count as silver IIRC.

[Artillery]

D'oh, good catch. I meant 2.5m. Dat numberpad... :smallredface:

I don't think a greatsword is 8ft long either. When I think geatsword I think something like a claymore, which is closer to 4ft long.

Most non-reach weapons are in the 5ft range.

For larger weapons it doesn't matter much. The only reach weapon you could get made of mithral would be a Spiked Chain, and it already is finessible and being 2-handed is what makes it good. Basically all reach weapons are hafted weapons which makes them ineligible for mithral.


Only two things wrong I can think of.

1) What happens to light weapons? If they go down a size they are unwieldable.

2) It might lead to the point where everyone (or nearly) has a mithril Large sized 2-handed weapon (adding an extra d6 dmg isn't great but if it only costs a few thousand it's a no-brainer at high levels).

You still couldn't use a Large weapon as a medium creature without penalties. its still a weapon improperly sized so you would take -2 to hit.

I think that allowing this wouldn't do too much really. You could use Greatswords 1-handed for an additional 4000GP.

Mithral is 500GP/lb of weapon so I don't see an issue with letting people duel wield.

I also don't see a big deal in spending 1000GP extra on your offhand weapon to upgrade from a Kukri to a Rapier.

[Gavinfoxx]

*sniff sniff* Someone say my name?

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

Anyway, you should look at this:

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/mov37.mpg

That is a Greatsword... and he can take his hand off of it while wielding it -- that's not difficult. He even does it to change grips in the video. What is difficult is using it with appropriate leverage when one-handed. At some point, you can't use a sword like a sword if you are holding it one handed and it was too long, regardless of its weight -- you would have to use it like some of the longer one handed spears.

[Artillery]

Yeah, swords aren't nearly as heavy as some people think they are. They didn't need to be either. The heavier weapons are always hammers and maces.
Even weapons like the Halberd was only 5lbs.

The only really heavy things were still below 10lb. The big War Hammers used by heavy cavalry were in the 7-8lb range. You frankly don't need a heavier weapon most of the time.

A lighter weapon can be swung quicker. Which makes up for lose mass much easier. That is what made flails very effective, it doesn't need to weigh as much if its going 2x as fast when it hits you.

[vhfforever]

In Pathfinder, mithril weapons count as silver IIRC.

I've actually been doing this in my games since I began running 3.5. Mithril weapons count as silver to overcome DR, but do not suffer from the -1 damage.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Mithral is worthless?

/Shrugs

Well, steel has hardness 10, while Mithral has hardness 15. So that's 5 more points of damage negated for sunder attempts on your weapon. Plus, mithral has 3x the hitpoints per inch of thickness (assuming darkwood is the equivalent of steel, there isn't a hitpoints per inch rating for steel since it is not a "special material"). Again, useful against sunder attacks.

Let's do the math- the SRD states Mithral is 500 gp / lb. Let's go with a longsword (standard weapon for DnD) which is 4 lb- so that's 2,000 gp, +300 mwk, +15 base = 2315 gp.

Steel Longsword = hardness 10, hitpoints 5
Mithral Longsword = hardness 15, hitpoints 15

Let's assume 3rd level character to afford a 2315 weapon in the first place. Let's assume your DM is a nice person and your final enemy of the session is only 5th level- if they were a Sunder Monster with say, a Greatsword (2d6+5 damage isn't unreasonable), that is 11 points of damage on average. So 5 sunder hits, and your steel longsword is trashed if there isn't a high roll on one of those attempts.

But against a Mithral longsword? You will last 3x longer against Mr. Sunder.


If your DM has approved "Augment Object" from the Stronghold Builder's Guide, then you can slap that spell on and double hardness to 30 and hitpoints to 30. Sunder Monster will not break your weapon so easily now...

So is the extra 2k really that much of a terrible choice? I'd put off the +1 item to have a mithral weapon for my toon simply because of the hardness/hitpoint increase from base steel. But mithral is soon more expensive than adamantine after 6 pounds (3k for any adamantine weapons, 500 gp/lb for any mithral weapon). But depending on how you interpret it (maybe it is 12 lbs when mithral = adamantine's cost due to half weight of the new object), if I was really concerned about being Sundered, I'd have gone with adamantine anyway.

Special Materials in items are great, if only so you still have something after a mean DM Disjunctions your stuff or your item is suppressed by a Dispel Magic or an anti-magic field or something...

But as to the original question... you run into the same problem for Light weapons becoming SubLight (a brand new category). Plus, since a mithral weapon is half the weight... it will have half the momentum upon impact. If Whitedrake implements the suggested rule (it's your game after all), how does Whitedrake rationalize keeping the same damage die type? The force of a blow is based upon both design and mass, but if you keep design constant but reduce mass with a lighter material... shouldn't the damage type also decrease?

Just a few thoughts.

[White_Drake]

You play adventurers where boss monsters spend five rounds attempting to break your weapons?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Assuming you're in a game where sunderers aren't an exotic once in a campaign thing, you're 1k short of adamantine which has hardness 20 and real benefits.

[Greenish]

Well, steel has hardness 10, while Mithral has hardness 15. So that's 5 more points of damage negated for sunder attempts on your weapon. Plus, mithral has 3x the hitpoints per inch of thickness (assuming darkwood is the equivalent of steel, there isn't a hitpoints per inch rating for steel since it is not a "special material"). Again, useful against sunder attacks.

Let's do the math- the SRD states Mithral is 500 gp / lb. Let's go with a longsword (standard weapon for DnD) which is 4 lb- so that's 2,000 gp, +300 mwk, +15 base = 2315 gp.

Steel Longsword = hardness 10, hitpoints 5
Mithral Longsword = hardness 15, hitpoints 15
Mithral has the same HP/thickness as steel (RC page 107), so your item hp is off.

Here's a handy table with some example weapons:{table]Longsword|Hardness|HP|Price
MW Steel|10|5|315 gp
Dwarvencraft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=6) steel|12|15|615 gp
+1 Steel|12|15|2315 gp
MW Mithral|15|5|2315 gp
MW Adamantine|20|6|3015 gp[/table]


So is the extra 2k really that much of a terrible choice?:smallamused:

[Daftendirekt]

1) What happens to light weapons? If they go down a size they are unwieldable.


Right, because when you find light armor made of mithral it's just unwearable. :smallconfused:

[Xenogears]

Right, because when you find light armor made of mithral it's just unwearable. :smallconfused:

In the section on weapon sizes it says that "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all."

So if you make a houserule that mithril makes a weapon one size category lighter it means that a light weapon that is made of mithril in unusable.

[Daftendirekt]

Size category as is without the theoretical rule being discussed in this thread has to do with actual SIZE. Making a weapon out of mithral doesn't magically shrink it down. It makes it weigh less. A longsword that suddenly weighs less would be easier to wield, regardless of the fact that it is the same size. It's the same rationale behind armor being made of mithral going down an armor type.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, as someone already said, in PF they count as silver against DR, except they don't have the damage penalty. They also weight half as much, which is nice if you're one of those "light-load-or-less" types.

In my homebrew, a finessable weapon made of mithril gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls when using your dexterity modifier on the attack roll. Mithril longswords can be used with weapon finesse as well, even two-handed, but don't gain the +1 bonus. I do this because I don't allow elven thinblades (or the lighter kind), but I still want elf swordsmen to be a cut above others.