Good ways to arm an army?

[aphoticConniver]

I'm looking to come up with special divisions of an army, such as a brigade armed with sprayers and Aboleth Mucus, or a battalion of archers with Shrunk ballista bolt arrows. Just funny, creative, and effective tools of warfare.

Thanks!

[Curmudgeon]

Shrunken ballista bolts don't do any extra damage when they expand. If you check the Weapons Table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons) you'll see that bolts have "—" as their damage entry. It's the crossbows which fire them that determine the damage.

[aphoticConniver]

Shrunken ballista bolts don't do any extra damage when they expand. If you check the Weapons Table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons) you'll see that bolts have "—" as their damage entry. It's the crossbows which fire them that determine the damage.

Welp. There goes the idea of more mobile artillery. Shucks.

[ArcturusV]

Shovel, hatchet, hammer, nails, rope.

Pretend your a corp of engineers. :smallbiggrin:

It's actually one of the most effective ways I've found to run an army in DnD unless you're in a very high magic setting. In which case armies are basically pointless anyway.

[aphoticConniver]

Another question: How effective, and in what way, is each major system of magic on the field of battle? Those, of course, being Divine, Arcane, Psionic, Incarnum, and Initiators (counted to avoid fighters sucking so hard).

[ArcturusV]

I usually give the edge to Arcane, then Divine. But both are close. Decently leveled characters of either type can have a massive effect on a battle. When you're talking about "Army" numbers even relatively low level stuff, spammed enough, can make a decisive difference.

Presume two armies, of more or less equal capabilities.

One army got several low level clerics/adepts casting bless on their soldiers, the other doesn't. Yeah it's only +1 to attacks and saves. But when you're talking about the mass numbers of an army that adds up. It becomes a lot more decisive in my experiences than the mere +1 would suggest. Same reason bards are so effective in "army" situations.

Similarly a lot of spells that most casters wouldn't look at for adventuring become a whole lot more viable in an war zone. You may scoff at the Sorcerer who took Fireball as a level 3 spell in an adventurer context. In a battle context though, a Fireball is good enough to outright kill, or severely cripple, an entire formation. Whereas some more typical favored spells, due to smaller AoEs or singular targetting parameters become less effective.

But Arcane just has all the tricks that an army might want. Divine has useful tricks and and a lot of "mass" sort of buffs/disables which get more useful in the army situation.

[avr]

For mooks or for leaders? For mooks, initiators are probably the most durable and so most useful. For leaders, arcane is the most powerful and versatile. There are specific tricks which each kind gets which are nice though (e.g. psionics - energy wall destroys castles and mook armies from manifester level 5)

[CaladanMoonblad]

Aphotic- how are you manning your army? There are different methods depending on the psychology of your troops.

Goblins- easily tricked into becoming suicide bombers.
Undead- as fast as the slowest zombie
Humans- an extra feat for skill focus / whatever (specialized brigades at 1st level)

The Stronghold Builder's guide has a small section on siege weapons, including magically imbued ballista bolts/catapult stones/etc.

You want cheap? Litter a bunch of caltrops behind your lines to avoid a flanking maneuver... of course, you can't retreat either without steel soles.

But generally... cost is the determining factor. So armies tend to have more Hide Armor, more Scale Mail, and more Banded mail (because its the cheapest of their armor types).

Mounts- a cavalry of wooly mammoths is great if you have a corps of druids to diplomancer them. It's like Snow White's Furry Army meets Hannibal of Carthage.

Armies go for efficiency and effectiveness. Hence why the Romans would sometimes engage their opponent to the right instead of whoever was in front of them (because the Romans fought in lines, and the guy in front was dying by the Roman to your left). Then after a minute or so, the guy behind you would take your place and you could head back through the lines to get a breather. It was like industrialized slaughter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uocQ8t9K9FA

[Gavinfoxx]

Make them all Werebears. Seriously.

If you can figure out how to retroactively give them ranks in that manipulate form skill, on a large scale (psychic reformation?), even better.

[ArcturusV]

The "Cheap" is also why you tend to see more Crossbows and Javelins than Greatbows. Or why you see more spears and longspears than masterwork greatswords, etc. You see people with holdout daggers instead of holdout Kukris.

[Gavinfoxx]

And remember, when a level 9 Druid can completely annihilate any Renaissance / Medieval 'historic-like' army, of mundane classes of level 5 and under (and even some supernatural classes), huge battles between set-piece armies aren't generally how things would get done either....

[IamL]

I'd equip one group with a boatload of scrolls, but that depends on the wealth of the army.

[ArcturusV]

The question being, why would a level 9 druid care though?

Sure they could inconvenience an army. MAYBE kill it depending on how ruthless the DM rules certain things like Blizzard Summoning and the ilk. Definitely slow it down though. But I can't imagine most druids would care too much about a war unless it involved something like the slash burning of an entire forest as a matter of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

The question being, why would a level 9 druid care though?

Sure they could inconvenience an army. MAYBE kill it depending on how ruthless the DM rules certain things like Blizzard Summoning and the ilk. Definitely slow it down though. But I can't imagine most druids would care too much about a war unless it involved something like the slash burning of an entire forest as a matter of course. :smallbiggrin:

They could definitely kill it... and you know armies are really, really destructive things that clear out ALL the game from lands and steal ALL the food from peasants and the peasants then starve and die and get REALLY desperate to find food? Yea, armies are bad news all around. Also, the traditional, 'hold off this area from an upcoming siege' game...

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

[jaybird]

More details, please? General setting, average level of the setting, distribution of magic, size of army...?

[ArcturusV]

Well, a tornado doesn't necessarily kill off an army. Might do a number on their ability to act for a while. You consider say, the War of 1812 where the British Army got hit with a hurricane AND tornadoes at the same time, they were stalled, but the army wasn't killed off by it. Blizzards and avalanches are devastating, but also unlikely to take out an army in and of itself unless you can manipulate the situation even further. Cutting off their supply lines in some way, getting them all huddled into a VERY small (For an army) area to bury them under an avalanche, etc.

The druid does have the best options for cold cocking an army. I agree. I just don't quite think it's as easy as people tend to presume for a single druid to pull it off decisively.

[Matticussama]

Yes, a level 9 Druid (or almost any T1 or T2 class) could take out or severely cripple an army of low-level characters - assuming they had no support. However, in a world where those level 9 characters exist and are active enough to involve themselves in the politics of war, you can also assume that the army would have a few mid-level to high-level people in it as well. Presumably those armies will have at least a few 5th - 7th level spellcasters specifically there for the purpose of countering other spellcasters, so that they cannot just AoE the army into oblivion; if they have dispel magic prepared (or scrolls/wands of dispel) then by sheer numbers the single Druid would run out of spells before the army could be completely routed.

Sure, the Druid can Wildshape and fight with their animal companion in melee - and take out a huge chunk of enemies in the process - but taking on dozens or scores of enemy footsoldiers isn't a good idea for longevity. Eventually, the combined effects of AoOs and high attack rolls would either force the Druid to retreat or possibly die. Then the Druid has made an enemy out of a nation, or possibly even both sides that were engaged in war.

[ArcturusV]

Or usually as I call that situation "The Kobold Effect". Based on earlier editions where I proved to players that Criticals were not the friend of PCs, but NPCs. Think it was 2nd edition ADnD where I proved that a Level 20 fighter, with proper equipment, could routinely be beaten by an equal level of Kobolds (40), because of Criticals (Something like a 90% win rate for the Kobolds in 30+ runs of the scenario with various people because no one thought I was right on it).

They might only have a 1/20 chance to hit you, and do 1d6 damage with the hit. But when you're taking 39 attacks on round one, 38 on round two, etc... the odds get long REAL fast. Solo druid taking on an army? All the spells he's talking about using are, if I remember right, well within Ranged Attack Range. Thousands of bolts/arrows/javelins/even Sling Bullets sailing towards him is going to result in long odds pretty quickly.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is spotting the Druid, in this scenario. And targeting her square. Also shooting through hurricane force winds... Look at that specific build I posted. that specific build. She generally uses tactics to deny capability of the enemy to target her...

Like, you know, a B-2. Which she is acting most similar to...

[ArcturusV]

Eh. I can't honestly remember what half the spells do off the top of my head. But your big "Kill the army" combo seems to be pulling off a Tornado, or burying them in snow. Avalanches are small enough in area they might take out quite a few but won't wipe out an army, snow might inconvenience them and stop them from marching onwards, but it won't kill them outright until you get it going for months. Tornados fit the same category really. It might make them trench up for the day and hunker down, but it's not going to decisively end the army unless they have really incompetent soldiers AND leaders. So it might work against something like an unorganized Goblin Horde.

Course, since it wouldn't kill the army on day one. You'd have to come back on day two. If there's a random blizzard in summer/spring/fall (The typical campaigning times), they're going to know Spellcaster. They're going to have outriders and scouts. You got good defenses from what I can see against arrow volleys. Since you're a druid, and naturally have a flying form and natural spell, you might even get away with repeat performances. But it kinda depends on the enemy being stupid and allowing you to repeat tactics against them day in, day out, without ever adapting to it. Or not having the ranking battlemage go "Hmm... there's a bat up there every time a tornado pops out of nowhere..." and doing something about it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Let's say she takes 10 on Hide / Move Silently and moves at a lower speed, using darkness and distance as concealment. Let's say she has the various concealment spells up (Camouflage!).

Given distance and cover of darkness, how big of a penalty do they have to spot her when she is at maximum effective casting range?

Again, B2 Bomber. Also remember: Invisible Spell...

[jaybird]

Let's say she takes 10 on Hide / Move Silently and moves at a lower speed, using darkness and distance as concealment. Let's say she has the various concealment spells up (Camouflage!).

Given distance and cover of darkness, how big of a penalty do they have to spot her when she is at maximum effective casting range?

Again, B2 Bomber. Also remember: Invisible Spell...


Any army that size in a setting that magical will have multiple casters wandering around, likely a utility caster and a buffer (Wizard and Bard, for example) per platoon. How many attempts at Scry do you think that army has?

[Gavinfoxx]

Any army that size in a setting that magical will have multiple casters wandering around, likely a utility caster and a buffer (Wizard and Bard, for example) per platoon. How many attempts at Scry do you think that army has?

Uhhh... parameters of the setup? I am saying that mundane armies, which some GMs think will work, don't. That's what that caster is an argument against. It's against the "5000 low level warriors > 1 high level caster" argument, which is actually pretty common from some GMs -- and on this forum! And I am saying is that, if high level casters exist, low level mundane armies wouldn't exist for the purpose of winning wars for kings. They would exist for things like occupying locations, pacifying populations, patrolling and holding land, etc. etc. ... not winning wars. And I'm also saying is that 'getting a bunch of mid and high level casters and having them all work together, with as powerful magic items as you can muster' is a better use of a kingdom's or empires resources for the purpose of projecting power, than getting mundane folk. Attaching an ARMY to those people would slow them down!

[CaladanMoonblad]

Uhhh... parameters of the setup? I am saying that mundane armies, which some GMs think will work, don't. That's what that caster is an argument against. It's against the "5000 low level warriors > 1 high level caster" argument, which is actually pretty common from some GMs -- and on this forum! And I am saying is that, if high level casters exist, low level mundane armies wouldn't exist for the purpose of winning wars for kings. They would exist for things like occupying locations, pacifying populations, patrolling and holding land, etc. etc. ... not winning wars. And I'm also saying is that 'getting a bunch of mid and high level casters and having them all work together, with as powerful magic items as you can muster' is a better use of a kingdom's or empires resources for the purpose of projecting power, than getting mundane folk. Attaching an ARMY to those people would slow them down!

As a GM, I'll take 5000 d20 rolls to shoot your caster. That's 250 possible crits. And 12.5 double 20s. Just shooting every round. Even with shortbows (1d6, that means... 2d6x12.5 = 25-150 damage range per round. Sweet : ) As a DM, I'd just roll the damage and declare "it's a hail of arrows attack"

But what about a charging melee force against a typical high level caster? Sure, hundreds will die, but once the front line starts grappling the caster, those are some really high Concentration checks as 9 other soldiers are Aiding Another for the main grappler, and then they pin the caster to the ground, and CDG him. Besides, there are far more level 1s to recruit than level 20s running around any single rationally built game setting.

Here's the thing... your argument assumes that the 5000 army guys are generic scarecrows against your personalized min-maxed caster designed to take on armies... but really, if you want to have a generalized argument of Casters > Army, take the DM book for generic NPCs and run the battle with those stats.

[Gavinfoxx]

No, I assume that you all are all sleeping in the middle of the night! With a normal amount of sentries, that can't possibly spot someone 750'-900' away, in dark blue night camouflage, in the air, in the dark.

Seriously. And that you can't see me with spot penalties. NINE HUNDRED FEET UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. You'll have a terrible time even figuring out what square I am in. And if you do, there's wind wall, and obscuring snow with snowsight. And that I can unload my spell load on people, who likely have no idea what is going on, when people just randomly start dying and that they aren't in, you know, anti-air formation, with everyone in squares and with their longest ranged, ranged weapons and stuff, and that I sow chaos and death and confusion in the camp in the middle of the night, at the very least killing the general, and then leave.

Remember, I am fighting from 750'-900' in the air, at night, attacking the camp. B2 Stealth Bomber.

[aphoticConniver]

I suppose I should have given a few bits of info I forgot:


Leading this army, there is a Spirit Shaman, a Blackguard/Assassin, a Rogue, a Cleric, a Warblade, and a Sorcerer, all of 16th level.
In dire circumstances, we also have the help of a 20th level Druid, that also happens to be the chosen of a goddess.
The army is probably around level 5 on average, and is made up of casters as well as frontline fighters.
We are working on using Animal Shapes to train a group of Roc Riders.