Interesting character for an experienced player in a newbie campaign?

[Nettlekid]

My friend is DMing her first campaign, and it sounds like it's going to be very fun. She wants it to be an intro campaign for new players, but it's not all newbies. As it stands there are two players who are brand new, one who has played a little, and one who has been in a few campaigns. None are optimizers in any sense. I really want to join in, and I've been told I can after a few sessions (to give the newbies a chance to get a feel for the game, to let a little plot develop, and to see what the party needs (less so on that last one)). Now, I'm quite experienced, and am known to be a bit of an optimizer/minmaxer. Which I think is unwarranted, as I've built many powerful characters that I've never played and usually play Tier 4/3s that I make good at their job, but by no means overpowered.

Anyway, can anyone offer some suggestions for a fun class that I can play, starting at level 1, that is sort of unusual, has a niche role that I can play up for the part while not outshining others and often helping them, but if push comes to shove I can be just as competent as most by using standard techniques.
For example, I was thinking Monk for useful Stunning Fist and it's certainly not overpowered, Paladin for the fun fluff and taking Exalted Feats which would assist allies, Battledancer from Dragon Compendium for reasons similar to Monk, and Bard for the obvious ally-buffing. But none of those are really doing it for me. I think I would get bored with Bard, and I'd be annoyed with the inflexible style of the Monk. Dragonfire Adept would fit the role pretty well, because it can do fair damage while being excellent support, but everyone knows that I want to play a badass Dragonfire Adept and I'm worried that would raise warning signs.

The group thus far is a Druid, a Ranger, a Cleric, and a Swashbuckler. Like I said, none optimize (hell, they haven't even picked feats yet) and so don't think of them as Tier 1s, casters, etc. They're just going to be puttering about, so I'd like to be niche enough not to overshadow them while having enough secret power to pull them out of dire situations if it comes down to it.

[CaladanMoonblad]

One of my players swapped his Monk for a Paladin.

He's the only Lawful-Good character in the party. He's got a Pegasus cohort that's also his companion. He's an AC monster with lance and spirited charge. But that's not the best part.

He plays Lawful-Good. He is completely honest about everything. He will not lie. He tells everyone exactly what he thinks. It is absolutely hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kNpvCVQPm0

My suggestion? Go Paladin Lawful Good. Play it to the hilt. With so many new players and a new GM, why not play something most people avoid?

[Lappy9001]

You could try giving yourself a challenge, like making a poor class up to snuff with the rest of the party. This will scratch your min/maxing itch while not outshining everyone else.

Another route would be to go for a super-buffer. Few people care that you're cheesed out when you spend every round sharing the love. Of course, talk to the Cleric to make sure you won't step on his toes.

[Psyren]

I recommend the classic 5th-man, the Bard. Focus on making the others feel awesome, with some minor healing/summoning/control to go with it, and they'll love you. And be sure to patch everyone up between fights with your CLW wand.

Warlock is also decent - you'll have fun stuff you can do, can contribute without being too powerful, and you can craft any item the others will need when you hit mid-levels. But the crafting takes awhile to come online and I don't know how long your game will run, so Bard might be best (if nobody else picks it.)

[Sir.Poley]

My recommendation is that you turn your optimization talents towards buffing, and play something like a Bard. That way, you can still be the most powerful character that you can manage -- but the result will be that the other players kick butt because of it. That way, everybody wins

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Beguiler, so the party can have a trapmonkey and some arcane support. The classic Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 should work, but if you want to be good aligned replace Mindbender with Paragnostic Apostle. Be sure to take Versatile Spellcaster (and Magical Training for shenanigans when necessary).

For a more powerful alternative, Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ whatever 5, with flaws for Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and a metamagic feat by 5th level. Use Martial Wizard to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Specialize in Conjuration and get Abrupt Jaunt. At level 15 you'll have Wizard 14 and Beguiler 8 casting. With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you know of one level higher.

[Nettlekid]

Although Bard fits the buffing role well, there are a couple of reasons I don't want to do it. One is that at low levels like this, the Bard buffs don't do much. Like, 1/day, if I do it all battle and nothing else, I add +1 to attacks and whatnot. That's barely noticeable. If this was like level 10 and I had pumped up Inspire Courage it would be a different matter, but this is just underwhelming. Secondly, I have special information that the main enemy of the campaign is the slave-driving aberration race, the Neogi. They are all, by default, immune to Mind-Affecting. No illusions, no fascinates, nothing fun. That's the same reason I couldn't go Beguiler. Otherwise I'd be living it up with random Silent Images.

I'm thinking Paladin might be the way to go. Be something a little quirky, like a Killoren or a Neraph, and like you said, play up the Lawful Good. As we sneak along a corridor past a hall of Neogi, my voice rings out "Halt, vile slavers! We have come to free the innocent souls you have wrongfully imprisoned! Repent your sins and wicked ways, lest your blood run through the grates in this, your own dining hall!" Or something to that effect. *shrug* I'd be tactful about it so I didn't steal the spotlight from whoever wants to be party face, or whoever decides to talk even though they aren't party face.

[Alienist]

Don't play something weird. Play to the standard fantasy tropes.

E.g. if you were a wizard, don't wander around in mithral breastplate and do other tweaks to get rid of ASF as it will cause a WTF moment for all the noobs.

Don't play it silly or strange, because that will break their suspension of disbelief.

Go with vanilla races, vanilla classes and vanilla feats. And then concentrate on two things

1) roleplaying really well
2) making it a good experience for everyone

----

If you play tier 3 classes a lot, then a lot of them are noticeably more powerful in melee than the standard melee classes. Hence your reputation. Even a high strength barbarian on a hgh strength race with a two haded weapon running around power attacking everything is going to make you look dodgy. I'm not saying it's your fault, the system does lean heavily in that direction once you know what to look for. But if you're continually showing up at the table and outshining other players, you're going to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Not saying that's what you do, but if people are pointing out to you that you're causing problems, don't trivialise or disregard the problem. People rarely offer pre-emptive corrective feedback unless there is something obviouly wrong with them (e.g. they're a douchebag or an idiot). People tend to avoid and downplay stuff, in order to avoid conflict.

E.g. if someone is constantly bickering about the rules and rules lawyering, I might take them aside and say to them something like "you sometimes focus a little too much on the rules, could you tone that down a fraction?"

Switching to a different paintbrush, one with much broader strokes. The problem with most optimisers is that they don't know when to stop. They don't know when to tone it down. The other problem most optimisers have is that they create gaping weaknesses in their character (whereas a true minmaxer would never do that (munchkins max out their attacks, minmaxers make sure they have no glaring weakness)) and then god forbid the DM should use even a single monster with a touch attack because they (and nobody else in the party) dumped dex down to six or seven, and the dm is a big unfair meanie who is cheating.

Back to specific advice, if you have been skating too close to the line for people's comfort backing off a small amount for a small amount of time is not going to change their preconceptions of you. You need a sustained marketing campaign for that, you've got to get a long way away from the line and stay there for a long time, otherwise nobody will believe that the leopard has changed his shorts.

In the meantime, try to optimise for good roleplaying, and fun at the whole table.

Sometimes an optimiser can smother new players. They're just trying to be helpful, (take a five foot step, don't take that feat, avoid that class like the plague) but if it gets too much, it's like the optimiser has a hand up their butt and they are just his puppets. Nobody likes that, and the optimiser may never pick up on it because he's "just being helpful" or "just pointing out options so that they can make an informed choice".

If you suspect this might be you, then try this: don't speak at all during someone else's turn (unless for something truly hilarious, or they specifically ak for advice), and don't touch other people's minis in combat. I knew one guy who wanted to move everyone's minis around for them, and everyone hated it. (I adapted by taking a ranged character and then just telling him "move me to where I can shoot at X", and he'd micromanage the horrible 3.5 line of sight rules (I've played way too much battletech and other boardgames, so I'm used to line of sight being unobstructed center or hex to center of hex, so everytime I moved my mini there was always a huge argument about why I could or couldn't do what I was trying to do) and he'd be happy, and I'd get the desired outcome without the big argument which made me happyish too)

[Gnome Alone]

A Neraph paladin. Hmm... Wouldn't happen to be trying to kill the wizard who killed his childhood friend and mentor, would he? Hangs around with time travelers?

[Alienist]

As an addendum, Bard is otherwise an excellent choice except that if you max out diplomacy, you still have to remember to let the other players talk to the NPCs. Don't hog all the conversations simply because you have much better social stats.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say, if you do play a Bard, try playing one with its tongue cut out. It will be a good roleplaying challenge for you.

[wayfare]

Bard is a decent jack of all trades, so its good for somebody who is looking to to buff others and occasionally slip into melee or cast a few crowd control spells.

I'd also suggest Scout -- it is a fun alternative to Rogue, very acrobatic, and also kind of Rangerish, so you get a lot of fun flavor.

Finally, as an oddball choice, Spellthief can be really fun.

[Alienist]

Although Bard fits the buffing role well, there are a couple of reasons I don't want to do it. One is that at low levels like this, the Bard buffs don't do much. Like, 1/day, if I do it all battle and nothing else, I add +1 to attacks and whatnot. That's barely noticeable.


That's the optimiser talking.

Actually, a real optimiser would look at that +1 and realise that basically 5% of everybody else's attack are going to be credited to your account, so with four other players you just boosted 'your' damage by 20%.

The "I don't like it because the bonus isn't big enough" is something else.



I'm thinking Paladin might be the way to go. Be something a little quirky, like a Killoren or a Neraph, and like you said, play up the Lawful Good. As we sneak along a corridor past a hall of Neogi, my voice rings out "Halt, vile slavers! We have come to free the innocent souls you have wrongfully imprisoned! Repent your sins and wicked ways, lest your blood run through the grates in this, your own dining hall!" Or something to that effect. *shrug* I'd be tactful about it so I didn't steal the spotlight from whoever wants to be party face, or whoever decides to talk even though they aren't party face.

No no no. Quirky bad. Straight away you'll set off red flags in the DMs mind.

The problem most people have with Paladins is that they are usually just an excuse to be really annoying and inconvenience the rest of the party. The scenario you described illustrates this point perfectly.

If you're stuck on Paladin, try playing a Paladin that is non judgemental. One that subscribes to an ethos such as moral relativism, or utilitarianism. One that is not going to cause everyone at the table to hate them because they decided to be the "morality cop". Or heck, play an Elven Paladin (yes it's sub-optimal, that's the gosh darned point) who "takes the long view". You're going to live a thousand years, and you'd like the world to be a better place when you retire at age 900, but you're not going to nitpick everyone else's smallest actions, life's too short for that (even for you).

DON'T play something that is just going to boil down to you telling other people what they can and cannot do.

DON'T sabotage the party.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're making a Paladin, go with an inquisitor-type. Something like (Cloistered) Clerc 1/ Paladin 19 for the final build, with (Knowledge Devotion), Law Devotion, and the Inquisition domain. Trade your Paladin turning for Divine Counterspell from CM, which your Inquisition domain power will contribute to. Take the feat Divine Defiance (FC2), which you can power via your Cleric turning uses. You'll want Practiced Spellcaster to get that by 6th level, whether you pick your Cleric or Paladin caster level for that is a matter of personal preference. I'd also get the Charging Smite ACF in PH2 for Paladin, and possibly even Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) if you still want Inspire Courage buffs. Your Paladin spell slots should be spent on Rhino's Rush, and get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power for those as well.

[Gwendol]

Even with a strict non-optimized bard you get inspirational boost as your 1-st level spell making IC +2. Switching songs about will tweak your build even more: healing hymn, spellbreaker song, hymn of fortification for example.

The bard gets many spells that are not mind-affecting.

[Miranius]

I`ve made good experiences with two kinds of "second-row" characters.

First was a summoner Cleric (who later took Malconvoker and Thaumaturgist). If your DM is flexible you can shape your summoning-list to what your party needs and be very very flexible that way.

The second one is the Factotum which i`d recommend for you. As a proverbial jack of all trades with access to arcane spells (which means Anyspell and its big brother) you won`t take the spotlight away form anybody but still can hugely contribute in any case with having a LITTLE healing, a LITTLE turning, ok combat-ability and TONS of skills. (maybe not a binge-drinking-contest against the troll-barbarian, but other than that you`re golden).

If you want to help your players role-play, make your PC heavily affected by his/her alignement or experiences and interact through them.

Hope that helped.

[darklink_shadow]

Play a monk! Optimize all you want and still be sort of terrible! Try to max out how much cold damage you can deal per punch.

[Nettlekid]

A Neraph paladin. Hmm... Wouldn't happen to be trying to kill the wizard who killed his childhood friend and mentor, would he? Hangs around with time travelers?

I...I don't get the reference... :'(

Scout would be useful for skills and of course scouting, but most of the members of this new party, especially the very newbie ones, want to be archers, because archers are cool. So I don't want to step on their toes.

I know how good Factotum is, as I've played on in another campaign. That's a class where I'd definitely be overshadowing people, since the Factotum is decent at just about everything, and these players are likely to be just decent. Plus, skill checks are fun and exciting at first level, so if I was a Factotum I'd be doing those better than other people, which would take away from their experience.

Alienist, I think you have a rather unfair view of me as an optimizer that I'm not. I'd appreciate if you fully read my other posts before passing judgement, since I did mention before that even if I was de-facto party face, I would let other people do the talking, so your "OMG don't hog the spotlight play a Bard with his tongue cut out" comment was a little heavy-handed. I'm fully capable of making broken, no-weakness-super-strong characters, but I actually don't know if I've ever played a single one. I've been a Warforged Fighter that took a homebrewed-for-prereqs Throw Ally so I could hurl our cat Psion at people, and miss every time. I've been a Knight Ashworm Dragoon that didn't use a lance. I've played a Bard before that was very lackluster in either hitting or boosting, which is why I don't want to do it again. My strongest character was probably a level 15 Malconvoker, and because the DM had us spend all out time in a no-conjuration dungeon, I was basically only useful for teleporting to the entrance and back to town. So in short, don't be worried about me overpowering the character and making the players feel useless. I'm not going to do that, and I have plenty of ways in mind how not to do that. What I want is to be a helpful member of the party, able to contribute things that the party will soon realize they want to have but no one wanted to play that sort of character, and although I don't want the spotlight I would like to be appreciated for my efforts. Like, if we didn't already have a Cleric I would go for the boring Healbot role. If I'm a Bard and I grant a +1 on attack rolls, people aren't going to credit me when they hit the monster's AC exactly. If I were to grant a sizable +5 and we had a Power Attacker in the party who usually misses but now has a way to offset the penalty, they would appreciate the Bard help. I don't want to be the leader, but I want a little credit if I were to help.

Although I think Paladin would be fun, especially since it does get some support options like Lay on Hands, spells that boost saving throws and the like, and I could take the feat from BoED that lets me share my Divine Grace, I do see that the way a Paladin pushes in could be detrimental to the party mechanics. In that case, maybe I could play a Knight? A loyal servant for the party, he would do as told and fight when needed, and occasionally step in to interpose himself between the enemy and the squishier members of the party, who I'm sure are going to realize very soon that they don't like melee. I might like the idea of taking that feat chain from Drow of the Underdark, where you can first take a -2 penalty to attack rolls to grant a +2 dodge bonus to AC to an ally within 10 ft, and then the other feat which lets you as an immediate action switch places with the target of the first feat if they're about to take damage. Very bodyguardish, which is cool, and I think it would be appreciated by the party. A Crusader could do similar, but I've already been a tanky Crusader recently and I wouldn't want to repeat so soon. Another good thing about the Knight's Challenge is that it's not mind-affecting. I would have gone with Samurai, but the only thing they can actually do well is Intimidate and fear effects are mind-affecting.

[Bonzai]

My first thought? Play an Incarnate or Binder. Not overly powerful, but can be tweaked on the fly to fill in any gaps that the party might have. With a bunch of new players, there will always be something over looked.

My 2nd thought was to play an enabler. People suggested bard, and it's an option. Another option is a Hexblade. Blows can be landed easier, and spells will be resised less. If they are poorly built, that can even the odds a bit. I had a hexblade build that could debuff a target by -14 to saves, -12 to attack rolls, -10 to damage, -12 to skill checks, -10 to ability checks, and -2 to AC at15th lvl. If the unseely fey template from Dragon Magazine is allowed, it gets much, much, worse. Even without expendng resources, his auras gave a persistant -4 to saves, -2 to attack, -2 to AC, and -2 to skill checks to anyone adjacent to him and his companion. Yeah, perhaps a bit optimized, but the idea is that you are enabling your companions to be more effective while you are pretendng to be a dumb melee.

[Gnome Alone]

@Nettlekid:
Oh, sorry. Frog from Chrono Trigger. Medieval chivalrous knight who ends up gallavanting around the timestream with later-medieval teenagers. Turned into a humanoid frog by the emo wizard who killed his friend.

[Miranius]

Hey bonzai, do you have that hexblade-build in digital form and could you send it to me/give me the link?

thanks a lot, Miranius :)

[limejuicepowder]

You might want to try approaching this question from a different direction: instead of trying to think of a build or class that will let you strike the perfect balance of fun and not overpowered, instead think of a character you'd like to roleplay. Make a backstory, personality, motives, the whole nine yards. Focus on making them as real as you can. Then, pick the simplest way you can think of to portray the character.

One of my favorite characters of all time was made using this method: a human spirit shaman raised by goblins. Completely lacking all civilized social graces, he kept everyone entertained by offering good luck charms, tripping on mushrooms, telling the future, and never bathing. Despite these traits, he became a quasi-leader of the group by being astute and wise.

[Nettlekid]

Hmmmm, Binder might actually be really good. I've wanted to play one, but have been put off by the fact that they tend only to be somewhat good at a few things, not at the same time. For this, that would be perfect. Also, the people in the group are big fans of the show Supernatural, so the whole drawing circles and binding creatures would be a plus for cool.

Incarnate is also an interesting choice, though Incarnum is the one system that I've never been fully able to wrap my head around. I'd need to read up on the handbooks to see what I can and can't do, and how it works at all.

That is a very impressive Hexblade build, and debuffs are a good way to help while letting other people shine. I wouldn't mind optimizing in that extent. If the enemy is taking like a -10 to saves and the Cleric's damage spells go through without a problem, the Cleric is going to feel good about himself. The only problem is that I hate any limited use per day abilities. Especially the Hexblade, whose calling card is his curse and he gets so few.

And yeah, limejuicepowder, that's what I really want to play up here. That's why a brash personality like Knight or Paladin was somewhat appealing to me, because it would be flavorful and help encourage the newbies to play up their characters too.

[Kyberwulf]

Go with a Cleric that is focused on Healing. In my experience most newbies die a lot. So be the guy that makes sure everyone survives. Also make it so your character is an old weary Battle Cleric out on his Last Ride. Remember to say, "I'm Getting to old for this .... " like a certain character on a movie.

Take on the old wise man role of the party. That way you are able to pony up some advice and what not on what characters can do to make their characters better.

[Bonzai]

Hey bonzai, do you have that hexblade-build in digital form and could you send it to me/give me the link?

thanks a lot, Miranius :)

I can sum it up pretty quick.

Hexblade Curse (Complete Warrior): As you progress you can free action curse some one for -2, -4, and if you tough it out a -6 almost everything. I would at least stay in hexblade for 7 levels for the greater curse (-4 version).

Dark Companion (Players Handbook 2): An alternative class feature that lets you sacrifice your familiar at level 4, for a shadow companion that gives -2 to ac and saves to those adjacent to it.

Dreadful Wrath (Players Guide to Faerun): Regional feat. If you charge, full attack, or cast a spell at a target, they need a DC 10 + 1/2 charcter level + Cha will save or become shaken (-2 to a bunch of stff).

Brutal Strike (Players Handbook 2): Need Power Attack and some sort of bludgeoning weapon. Make a power attack. If it connects, they need a fort save DC 10+ amount of the power attack, or they become sickened (also a -2 to lots of stuff).

Neatherese Battle Curse (Lost Empires of Faerun): You also need Power attack for this one. As part of an attack, you sacrifice a spell. You gain a bonus to attack equal to the spell level sacrificed. If it connects they need a DC 10+ spell level sacrificed+ Cha Will save or take -2 to a bunch of stuff.

Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige- Focalor: Focalor's Aura of Sadness gives you a 5ft radius that gives a -2 penalty to a lot of things.

So with 7 feats and 7 levels of hexblade you can get to the numbers I described. Charge the meanest looking opponent. As part of the charge power attack and activate the Netherese Battle Curse. Free action your Hexblade crse when your aura's are in range. Odds are good that they will fail some saves and you can achieve the numbers I stated above.

If I were to dip into another class, I would go 3 levels of Black Guard. This would give me another -2 passive aura and +Cha to my saves. This goes along lovely with mettle and a ring of evasion. If playing an evil character is out of the question, then concider the Corrupt Avenger PrC from Heroes of Horror. You get additional Charisma based casting (including Bestow Curse), +Cha to saves, and at 9th level an additional -4 debuff to all enemies within 30ft. Main drawback is that it is a big level investment (which effects your hexblade abilities), and you have to deal with Taint.

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, look at the Unseely Fey template. 0 lvl adjustment, your type becomes Fey, a % roll for wings, a % roll for vision type, scaleing DR/ Cold Iron, Iron vulnerability that is mostlycovered by your DR, -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha, +4 to intimidate, and one of 4 abilities. The one you want is winter's chill. Any living, non-fey creature within 5ft takes a morale penalty to saves equal to your Cha bonus.Yes, that is insane. At 20th level that could easily be a -12 debuff, plus the other -4 to -6 from your passive auras. How does a -18 to saves just for standing next to some one sound?

So the numbers I gave were the basics. With these other options you could boost the debuffs even further.

Edit: Oh... and the magic item compendium has the "Curse Spewing" weapon enhancement. +3 enhancement, on a crit the taget gets -4 to most things.