What's the Worst Feat that You Can Think Of? [Archive]

VGLordR2

2013-03-02, 02:07 AM

Hello, everyone. I was thumbing through my copy of Ghostwalk recently, and I found a feat called Corrupt Arcane Studies. It's a feat for Sorcerers and Wizards. It gives +1 to the DC's of arcane spells, and increases the effective caster level by one when trying to penetrate Spell Resistance. However, in exchange for this benefit, you have to take some pretty hefty penalties. First, you lose the benefit of this feat if you aren't wearing significant amounts of gray and black clothing. This is tolerable. However, you also take a -2 penalty to your Wisdom score upon taking this feat. This penalty is irreversible. And finally, each day, a character with this feat must succeed on a Wisdom check (which gets harder by the day), or be unable to prepare spells or recover spell slots for 24 hours. This is, by far, the worst feat that I've ever encountered. Not only is it not very useful; it's actively detrimental to anyone who takes it. This led me to wonder: what are the most terrible feats that you know of? Are there any others that are so clearly awful that no character in his right mind would them?

georgie_leech

2013-03-02, 02:24 AM

I can't find the thread (blast the lack of decent searching tools here!) but I recall a feat for truenamers that increased the DC of Truenaming Checks, and nothing else. No benefits whatsoever; take the feat, and your attempts to do anything with truenaming become less likely to succeed.

EDIT: AHA! found it:

This looks like a job for the terribly worded Truenamer chapter!

Check out Focused Lexicon (ToM 229). RAI, I believe it's intended to increase the save DCs of your utterances against a certain creature type. However, RAW, I believe that it increases the Truespeak DCs of those utterances, thereby making you less likely to succeed without giving you anything in return.

Bam. Actively detrimental feat. Thanks, terrible wording!

HunterOfJello

2013-03-02, 02:32 AM

Skill Focus (Speak Language)

Malimar

2013-03-02, 02:33 AM

Skill Focus (Speak Language) and Focused Lexicon (as mentioned by georgie_leech) are the popular ones.

SowZ

2013-03-02, 02:37 AM

HunterOfJello

2013-03-02, 02:42 AM

Keep in mind the check resets to 10 every time you fail it. And it says you can't prepare arcane spells. So, yeah, it totally sucks for Wizards. It is actually decent for a min-maxed Sorcerer who has nothing else good spend the feat on, though. I love DC boosters so much.

I agree. I always drool over Shadow Weave Magic when I play a Beguiler. It's so awesome and perfect for that class.

~~~~

Getting back to bad feats:

Quick Draw can often be a worthless feat since it can be replaced by a handful of extremely inexpensive weapon crystals. Even if you played a dagger throwing rogue, it would be better to buy 20 of the crystals for a total of 6000gp instead of spending a feat on Quick Draw.

Any feat that is extraordinarily easy to replace by a cheap magic item would generally fall into this category.

TuggyNE

2013-03-02, 02:52 AM

I came in here specifically to post about Focused Lexicon, and ninjas make me sad. :smallfrown:

SowZ

2013-03-02, 03:07 AM

I came in here specifically to post about Focused Lexicon, and ninjas make me sad. :smallfrown:

I am sure they meant to say save DC, though.

Gavinfoxx

2013-03-02, 03:10 AM

Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu.

Sandstorm.

Oh gawd... the hippos...

Malimar

2013-03-02, 03:25 AM

Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu.

Sandstorm.

Oh gawd... the hippos...

I think you've misread the title and the OP. It says "worst", not "best". Easy mistake to make, I know. :smalltongue:

Seharvepernfan

2013-03-02, 08:10 AM

nedz

2013-03-02, 08:43 AM

Exotic Weapon Proficiency with any of the Monk weapons.
Especially Sai, Siangham and Shuriken — not even Monks use these.

Postmodernist

2013-03-02, 09:15 AM

Dodge sucks pretty badly.

SaintRidley

2013-03-02, 09:18 AM

Quick Draw can often be a worthless feat since it can be replaced by a handful of extremely inexpensive weapon crystals. Even if you played a dagger throwing rogue, it would be better to buy 20 of the crystals for a total of 6000gp instead of spending a feat on Quick Draw.

Quick draw can also be replaced by having a BAB greater than zero and withdrawing your weapon during the course of taking a move action.

The Truenaming feat is definitely the worst, though.

Telonius

2013-03-02, 09:19 AM

Monkey Grip has to be up there.

Research - because nobody knows how to use a library without a feat?

JellyPooga

2013-03-02, 09:23 AM

Quick draw can also be replaced by having a BAB greater than zero and withdrawing your weapon during the course of taking a move action.

Quick Draw can be useful to certain builds. A TWF who wants to wield his 1-H weapon two-handed on a charge to close, then draw his 2nd weapon to full-attack next round is one example of someone that can't ignore the move action to draw his weapon. Thrower builds also rely on it, to an extent (though, as previously mentioned, magic items can obfuscate this requirement).

Greenish

2013-03-02, 09:37 AM

Quick Draw can be useful to certain builds. A TWF who wants to wield his 1-H weapon two-handed on a charge to close, then draw his 2nd weapon to full-attack next round is one example of someone that can't ignore the move action to draw his weapon.There are TWF builds that lack pounce or free movement?

Zombimode

2013-03-02, 09:53 AM

There are TWF builds that lack pounce or free movement?

Depends on your usage of the word "build". There are certainly characters using TWF without pounce or free movement.

JellyPooga

2013-03-02, 09:54 AM

There are TWF builds that lack pounce or free movement?

Yes. Yes there are. Especially at the lower level end of the character spectrum.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-03-02, 10:08 AM

Reading over other threads like this, here are some funny ones I found.

Posted By: Dullyanna
Weapon Focus(Gauntlet)

Posted By: Kurald Galain
Armor proficiency (medium). Simply because nearly all medium armors suck, and those that don't aren't a significant enough improvement over light armors to spend a feat on.

Simple Weapon Proficiency. Because if you're in one of the few classes that doesn't have it, either you really don't need it, or Martial Weapon Proficiency is a better option.

Enlarge spell. Because, as Logicninja says, if you're losing only because the enemy is outside your friggin' range, you're doing something wrong.

Posted By: teleute
Dodge is terrible. No one I know has taken it unless it was to get Spring Attack or required for a prestige class. Just about everyone forgets they have it--I had to actually write "dodge" on the top of my character sheet so I wouldn't keep forgetting to figure it into my AC.

Posted By: Bardbarian
Weapon Specialization: Net

Not only does it do nothing (it would give +2 damage if nets did damage,) but you've spent 4 levels in Fighter just to get it.

Venger

2013-03-02, 10:28 AM

Medium Armor proficiency. Who is going to wear a breastplate rather than a chain shirt at the cost of speed, acp, and a feat?

I see people take endurance/iron will/alertness/track (when not rangers)/etc. all the time and I'm perfectly okay with it, but medium armor proficiency requires a person who is probably trolling the DM.

iron will and alertness are pretty common feat taxes for good feats, prcs, etc. track is required for a few niches, but nothing I can think of of off the top of my head besides crimson scourge.

endurance can sometimes be worth it for steadfast determination if your con is good enough and your wis is poor enough

agree with armor proficiency.

TheFallenOne

2013-03-02, 10:32 AM

Medium armor isn't bad. Yes, the +1 AC from breastplate as opposed to chain shirt isn't worth the slower speed in many cases. A mithral fullplate on the other hand...

Venger

2013-03-02, 10:33 AM

Medium armor isn't bad. Yes, the +1 AC from breastplate as opposed to chain shirt isn't worth the slower speed in many cases. A mithral fullplate on the other hand...

a +3 armor bonus is worth a feat?

I think most would disagree there

Answerer

2013-03-02, 10:34 AM

Vow of Poverty

Skill Focus (Speak Language) is pointless.

Vow of Poverty makes you worse.

TheFallenOne

2013-03-02, 10:42 AM

a +3 armor bonus is worth a feat?

I think most would disagree there

It's a feat many classes get for free.

Also, '+3 armor bonus isn't worth a feat' is decidedly offtopic here. We're talking about worst feats. Not somewhat subpar feats.

Wonton

2013-03-02, 10:42 AM

Special mention for Pathfinder's Prone Shooter. Gets rid of the penalty for using a crossbow or firearm while prone... even though there's no such penalty. Never was errata'd, either.

Grendus

2013-03-02, 10:47 AM

a +3 armor bonus is worth a feat?

I think most would disagree there

Depends on what your DM will allow. If he has you stuck on core only, it may actually be the only feat worth taking for, say, a Rogue or Bard. Core feats kinda suck.

Vow of Poverty

Skill Focus (Speak Language) is pointless.

Vow of Poverty makes you worse.

According to the designer, VoP was intended to help characters who were already giving up their possessions stay relevant as the game progressed. It doesn't do that very well, but it actually is useful in one specific instance. Well, two actually. If your DM tries to make 3.5 a gritty fantasy game, you may actually wind up with more bonuses from VoP than from gear (though a DM who does that will probably ban it as OP). So, not useless, just a newbie trap.

Othesemo

2013-03-02, 10:51 AM

Vow of Poverty

Skill Focus (Speak Language) is pointless.

Vow of Poverty makes you worse.

Arguably, Vow of Poverty just reduces the cap on your power. It is conceivable that a character in a very low magic campaign would be improved- perhaps even drastically improved- by taking the feat.

Quorothorn

2013-03-02, 11:12 AM

It's a feat many classes get for free.

...which is why it is a terrible Feat to actually take with one of your Feat slots, I believe was the point? Also, you'd be spending 10,500 gp for the mithral full plate in addition to the Feat slot to get that total +3 armor bonus. There's just better ways to go about getting armor bonuses than spending one of your ~7 Feat slots, I imagine.

Meanwhile: and here my first thought was an off-hand "Toughness and Dodge and Run". I did not know about some of these more obscure ones.

mattie_p

2013-03-02, 11:28 AM

I just opened Complete Warrior to see some feats, here is one that stands out:

Eagle Claw Attack:

Requires Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike. Benefit: When you make an unarmed strike against an object, you may add your Wisdom bonus to the damage.

I can not think of a single instance where this would be necessary at all. Anyone?

nedz

2013-03-02, 12:45 PM

Gnome Alone

2013-03-02, 12:49 PM

Smite Inanimate Object! Wow, it sort of exists. Could be good for someone RPing a terrifying, delusional sociopath.

"See these holes I punched in the wall? They're a little bigger, because I am so wise."

VGLordR2

2013-03-02, 01:05 PM

ZamielVanWeber

2013-03-02, 01:05 PM

Eagle Claw is especially useless since Iajatsu Focus does bonus damage to objects anyways. I would just spend the feat to gain it as a class skill if I felt the need to murder every block I find.
Also I love fighters but Weapon Specilization is just awful. Even a build designed to get 11 attacks a round barely gives damage off of it.

limejuicepowder

2013-03-02, 01:32 PM

Who played back in the day of ambidexterity AND two-weapon fighting? Talk about a feat tax for a crappy fighting style. My first 3.0 character, a barb, actually took ambidexterity cause I didn't like him having a weak side...this is despite him fighting with a greatsword. Somewhat ironically, it came in handy when his weapon was sundered and he went to town with spiked gauntlets.

I find mobility to be particularly galling - not only does it have a terrible prereq, who actually exposes themselves to AoO from movement? You're either a rogue-type with mad tumble skills, or a fighter-type who rarely cares about a single AoE. I find it extra annoying cause elusive target looks like so much fun....just not 3 feats worth of fun.

Yora

2013-03-02, 01:46 PM

Medium Armor proficiency. Who is going to wear a breastplate rather than a chain shirt at the cost of speed, acp, and a feat?

I see people take endurance/iron will/alertness/track (when not rangers)/etc. all the time and I'm perfectly okay with it, but medium armor proficiency requires a person who is probably trolling the DM.
There really is no point in taking the feat. I guess it's just there for completeness, even though everyone who could have any use for it is pretty much guaranteed the get it for free.

Archmage1

2013-03-02, 01:54 PM

Well, while it might protect you from DM vengance, eschew materials might be the worst feat.
replaced by a spell component pouch...

As for monkey grip...
I still remember my evoker who dual wielded greatswords while using this feat...
because why not....

ZamielVanWeber

2013-03-02, 01:58 PM

jedipilot24

2013-03-02, 02:10 PM

Well, while it might protect you from DM vengance, eschew materials might be the worst feat.
replaced by a spell component pouch...

In this same vein, Spell Mastery. It might be good if it scaled but a fixed number of spells? Not worth it unless your DM is deliberately trying to turn your wizard into commoner. Or you're trying to be a Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) for some reason.

mattie_p

2013-03-02, 02:14 PM

Since you guys love medium armor proficiency so much, how about Thri-Kreen Carapce from Complete Psionic? +1 Natural Armor Bonus FTW!

Or how about all the mind blade feats from Comp Psi? Like "Dwarven Urgosh Mind Blade". When was the last time you took that?

Amidus Drexel

2013-03-02, 02:58 PM

And on that note, add all the feats that only help you against some psionic powers.

ShurikVch

2013-03-02, 02:59 PM

Medium Armor proficiency. Who is going to wear a breastplate rather than a chain shirt at the cost of speed, acp, and a feat?

I see people take endurance/iron will/alertness/track (when not rangers)/etc. all the time and I'm perfectly okay with it, but medium armor proficiency requires a person who is probably trolling the DM.
Mithral full plate is medium armor. :smallwink:

Well, while it might protect you from DM vengance, eschew materials might be the worst feat.
replaced by a spell component pouch...
Have SCP a Colossal+ - sized crossbow bolts in it? Because Bolt cantrip allow to shoot bolts of any size... :smallbiggrin:

SaintRidley

2013-03-02, 04:31 PM

TuggyNE

2013-03-02, 04:47 PM

TheFallenOne

2013-03-02, 05:06 PM

...which is why it is a terrible Feat to actually take with one of your Feat slots, I believe was the point?

But we are talking 'worst feats'. Not 'feats not worth getting through feat slots'.

Martial Weapon Proficiency(Greatsword) is quite useful for melees. But chances are those characters who don't already have MWP from their classes get little use from the feat. Is it a bad feat now?

If any proficiency is subpar it's shield proficiency. What happens if you use a shield you're not proficient with? You get the ACP on attacks and physical skill checks. Make the shield Darkwood(or Mithral if you want metal), reduce the ACP to 0. Done. 100 extra GP on top of Masterwork cost and the proficiency becomes obsolete.

Seharvepernfan

2013-03-02, 05:28 PM

Mithral full plate is medium armor. :smallwink:

Yeah, someone pointed that out to me. I hadn't considered that.

As for eagle claw; it's for monks who sunder weapons and shields - combined with their adamantine ki strike, they just break their opponents' ability to fight/defend (as poorly as monks do everything, but hey).

Thattaman

2013-03-02, 05:31 PM

Skill Focus (Profession [Roleplayer]). It doesn't give you an inherent bonus on knowing loopholes in the rules. :smallfrown:

The Trickster

2013-03-02, 05:40 PM

I vote toughness. The core handbook one. Becomes obsolete after a couple levels. :smallfrown:

ButtSoup

2013-03-02, 05:47 PM

When I read "worst feat"; my first thought was Divine Metamagic... because I watched it ruin one of my favorite campaigns I played in.

navar100

2013-03-02, 06:35 PM

I agree. I always drool over Shadow Weave Magic when I play a Beguiler. It's so awesome and perfect for that class.

~~~~

Getting back to bad feats:

Quick Draw can often be a worthless feat since it can be replaced by a handful of extremely inexpensive weapon crystals. Even if you played a dagger throwing rogue, it would be better to buy 20 of the crystals for a total of 6000gp instead of spending a feat on Quick Draw.

Any feat that is extraordinarily easy to replace by a cheap magic item would generally fall into this category.

I disagree. Just because a magic item is published in some book or could be crafted by convention doesn't mean said item will actually be available in the game. Even if said item could be available doesn't mean it could be purchased. Even if it could be purchased someone might prefer spending 6,000 gp on other things.

As for bad feats:

Toughness
Spell Focus (Abjuration)
Spell Focus (Divination)
Don't recall name, but the feat in Magic Incarnum that gives you 1 whole point of Essentia.
Dodge - I used to be ok with it, but having seen Pathfinder's version which is +1 dodge bonus to AC against everyone all the time, 3E's version is very lackluster.

Venger

2013-03-02, 06:47 PM

I disagree. Just because a magic item is published in some book or could be crafted by convention doesn't mean said item will actually be available in the game. Even if said item could be available doesn't mean it could be purchased. Even if it could be purchased someone might prefer spending 6,000 gp on other things.

Don't recall name, but the feat in Magic Incarnum that gives you 1 whole point of Essentia.
well, in examples like these, we go by RAW, not factoring in houserules such as "xyz items don't exist" or "no magic marts"

that feat is creatively called "bonus essentia" and if you can shape soulmelds, you instead gain a whopping 2 points of essentia.

Zaq

2013-03-02, 07:32 PM

You knew I was going to say this, right? There's actually a feat in Tome of Magic, Focused Lexicon, that . . .

[snip]

. . . I see my work here is done.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-02, 07:53 PM

Dash, from CW.

Adds 5' to your land speed. Oh great, a way to add speed to my heavily armoured characters... what do you mean it only works with light (or no) armour?

Lupus753

2013-03-02, 07:54 PM

As someone who never played this edition, I'm limited to what I could find on a d20 SRD site. That said, I'd definitely go with Natural Spell. Taking away the only noticeable deficiency (cannot cast overpowered spells while as a vicious animal) from one of the most powerful classes? Definitely a terrible feat.

...Oh, you wanted "worst" as in weak? Okay, then. So far, I've heard of Manyshot. There's no way that firing multiple arrows makes up for such crippling accuracy penalties. I can't believe Haley took it.

Othesemo

2013-03-02, 07:57 PM

Dash, from CW.

Adds 5' to your land speed. Oh great, a way to add speed to my heavily armoured characters... what do you mean it only works with light (or no) armour?

In fairness, that feat does have one very useful application. Namely, automatically outspeeding other creatures with your same base speed (humans, for most characters). Very handy when you have to run away from guards or somesuch.

mattie_p

2013-03-02, 07:59 PM

In fairness, that feat does have one very useful application. Namely, automatically outspeeding other creatures with your same base speed (humans, for most characters). Very handy when you have to run away from guards or somesuch.

You don't run away from guards, silly. You kill them. At least, in every game I've every been in, the guards end up dead. Just saying.

Amidus Drexel

2013-03-02, 08:04 PM

You don't run away from guards, silly. You kill them. At least, in every game I've every been in, the guards end up dead. Just saying.

Quoted for truth.

Othesemo

2013-03-02, 08:06 PM

You don't run away from guards, silly. You kill them. At least, in every game I've every been in, the guards end up dead. Just saying.

You've got a nicer DM than me.

...Oh, you wanted "worst" as in weak? Okay, then. So far, I've heard of Manyshot. There's no way that firing multiple arrows makes up for such crippling accuracy penalties. I can't believe Haley took it.

-4 to hit, and you essentially get double damage. If you need a 13 or higher to hit the guy normally, then this either breaks even or reduces your net damage. If you need a 12 or lower to hit, then this will increase your net damage.

By no stretch of the imagination is it a bad feat. It's not spamable, but if you've got good to hit/are fighting an ooze, it's absolutely fantastic. Suppose you normally need a 10 to hit- manyshot reduces your to hit chance by ~36%. It also increases your damage by 100%. Your net damage is increased by ~28%. Not the worst feat ever made.

Greenish

2013-03-02, 08:08 PM

track is required for a few niches, but nothing I can think of of off the top of my head besides crimson scourge.Track is actually required for quite a few decent PrCs, such as Illithid Slayer or Cyran Avenger.

Special mention for Pathfinder's Prone Shooter. Gets rid of the penalty for using a crossbow or firearm while prone... even though there's no such penalty. Never was errata'd, either.It was fixed, actually, if only on FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9pyu). It' still not a great feat, but at least it does something.

Who played back in the day of ambidexterity AND two-weapon fighting? Talk about a feat tax for a crappy fighting style.I haven't played 3.0, but I was under the impression the ranger existed so you could dip for both.

Skill Focus (Profession [Roleplayer]). It doesn't give you an inherent bonus on knowing loopholes in the rules. :smallfrown:Why would anyone want to make their hobby their profession, anyway? That just defeats the point.

...Oh, you wanted "worst" as in weak? Okay, then. So far, I've heard of Manyshot. There's no way that firing multiple arrows makes up for such crippling accuracy penalties. I can't believe Haley took it.Maybe she's gearing for Imp. Manyshot so she can actually use SA with all of them. Then again, in OotSverse a half-ogre with spiked chain and Spring Attack (?) qualifies for cheese, and only evil people dip fighter 2 for feats.

[Edit]:
-4 to hit, and you essentially get double damage. If you need a 13 or higher to hit the guy normally, then this either breaks even or reduces your net damage. If you need a 12 or lower to hit, then this will increase your net damage.Unless you bothered, say, full attack. With that Rapid Shot which you've already got for the prerequisites.

nedz

2013-03-02, 08:08 PM

You don't run away from guards, silly. You kill them. At least, in every game I've every been in, the guards end up dead. Just saying.

I believe his point was that in the "RUN AWAY" scenario, being 5' faster can save your life.

Amidus Drexel

2013-03-02, 08:11 PM

How about this one: Innate Spell. I can see a few practical uses for it (at-will cures, and... that's about it, actually), but nothing really worth an 8th or 9th level slot.

AsteriskAmp

2013-03-02, 08:11 PM

...Oh, you wanted "worst" as in weak? Okay, then. So far, I've heard of Manyshot. There's no way that firing multiple arrows makes up for such crippling accuracy penalties. I can't believe Haley took it.Unless you have bonus dice to your attacks, like flaming enchantment or god forbid things like Dragonfire Inspiration, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, or anything giving bonus damage. If you are hitting on anything but a 1 (and with correct feats even a 1), it just means you have to roll above a 5 or less instead. The prereqs are insanely annoying though.

Greater Manyshot and you can apply Skirmish to the additional arrows.

Gnome Alone

2013-03-02, 08:11 PM

@Lupus753:
That's actually a pretty good point with Natural Spell. Like druids needed any extra help.

@Kuulvheysoon:
Hadn't hurt of Dash, but for already-lightly-armored folk, I can think of worse feats. Does it stack with Fast Movement?

Greenish

2013-03-02, 08:15 PM

I believe his point was that in the "RUN AWAY" scenario, being 5' faster can save your life.You don't have to be faster than the dragon, you just have to be faster than the dwarf.

Gnome Alone

2013-03-02, 08:17 PM

(Posting in separate post b/c phone character limit makes me sad {well, sadder})
Because man, I like the idea of having 45ft movement - a full 50% faster than other men, I'd be! It is an unnecessary extra screw-you to heavily armored melee though.

Quorothorn

2013-03-02, 08:26 PM

But we are talking 'worst feats'. Not 'feats not worth getting through feat slots'.

Martial Weapon Proficiency(Greatsword) is quite useful for melees. But chances are those characters who don't already have MWP from their classes get little use from the feat. Is it a bad feat now?

If any proficiency is subpar it's shield proficiency. What happens if you use a shield you're not proficient with? You get the ACP on attacks and physical skill checks. Make the shield Darkwood(or Mithral if you want metal), reduce the ACP to 0. Done. 100 extra GP on top of Masterwork cost and the proficiency becomes obsolete.

Fair enough, seems like an issue of semantics/interpretation of what the thread is "about". I simply assumed the fact that anyone was bringing up non-Exotic proficiency feats at all meant the topic was more in line of "Feats one actively takes", in which case it certainly is a poor active choice, both because it doesn't help much at all and it's so much easier to get "free" via multiclassing.

In any case, Shield Proficiency does seem a "worse" feat due to shields' low penalties for on-proficiency.

You don't have to be faster than the dragon, you just have to be faster than the dwarf.

Or, even more so, the encumbered gnome or halfling...

TuggyNE

2013-03-02, 08:27 PM

...Oh, you wanted "worst" as in weak? Okay, then. So far, I've heard of Manyshot. There's no way that firing multiple arrows makes up for such crippling accuracy penalties. I can't believe Haley took it.

What, you don't like iteratives either? Manyshot is basically just evening out the penalties. It's often quite useful, and is certainly nowhere near a bad feat.

Arbane

2013-03-02, 08:28 PM

You don't run away from guards, silly. You kill them. At least, in every game I've every been in, the guards end up dead. Just saying.

The last game of actual D&D I was in, the guards invariably had better gear than us AND were around even-leveled (it was a low-level game). I started calling them 'Guardzilla'.

Saidoro

2013-03-02, 08:34 PM

[Edit]: Unless you bothered, say, full attack. With that Rapid Shot which you've already got for the prerequisites.
Try using manyshot with a factotum. It's not useless, it's just not great for most builds.

How about this one: Innate Spell. I can see a few practical uses for it (at-will cures, and... that's about it, actually), but nothing really worth an 8th or 9th level slot.
You don't think being surrounded by thousands of unseen servants at all times is worth it?:smalltongue: ...Yeah, that's the kind of feat which can be abused but is really terrible if it isn't.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-02, 08:35 PM

I believe his point was that in the "RUN AWAY" scenario, being 5' faster can save your life.

It desn't apply for anyone in heavier than light armour, so as long as you can outrun the Fighters, you'd be fine regardless.

@Kuulvheysoon:
Hadn't hurt of Dash, but for already-lightly-armored folk, I can think of worse feats. Does it stack with Fast Movement?

Indeed it does. It's an untyped bonus.

Greenish

2013-03-02, 08:38 PM

Try using manyshot with a factotum. It's not useless, it's just not great for most builds.I don't think I could ever spare all the feats for that on a factotum.

Also I wasn't saying it's useless.

Amidus Drexel

2013-03-02, 08:45 PM

You don't think being surrounded by thousands of unseen servants at all times is worth it?:smalltongue: ...Yeah, that's the kind of feat which can be abused but is really terrible if it isn't.

I stand corrected. There's Mount, too, and it lasts longer. Hundreds upon hundreds of horses. :smallamused:

AsteriskAmp

2013-03-02, 08:48 PM

I stand corrected. There's Mount, too, and it lasts longer. Hundreds upon hundreds of horses. :smallamused:I'm sure there was a legion of unseen servants spell somewhere.

For sorcerer maybe stuff like the all powerful arcane fusion?

Amidus Drexel

2013-03-02, 08:55 PM

I'm sure there was a legion of unseen servants spell somewhere.

For sorcerer maybe stuff like the all powerful arcane fusion?

The only problem with that is you'd need a 13th-level spell slot to get arcane fusion with Innate Spell.

AsteriskAmp

2013-03-02, 08:59 PM

The only problem with that is you'd need a 13th-level spell slot to get arcane fusion with Innate Spell.I thought you were referring to the Faerun version...

Amidus Drexel

2013-03-02, 09:05 PM

I thought you were referring to the Faerun version...

No, I'm talking about the complete arcane one... I probably should have clarified that.

The Faerun one is much better, by far, even if it's only 3/day.

AsteriskAmp

2013-03-02, 09:10 PM

No, I'm talking about the complete arcane one... I probably should have clarified that.

The Faerun one is much better, by far, even if it's only 3/day.
The prerequisites kill it badly, quicken... ok; useful. Still... ok, I could see a wizard getting it if it's being constantly grappled. Silent... at this point you probably are a polymorphing transmuter that somehow didn't lose levels or a urban wizard of some sort.

Your reward, losing a level 9 slot for at-will casting of a level 1. It's bad, but it does have abuses it seems. Forgot the use of metamagicked to hell and reduced back to level 1 slot of a damaging cantrip which might allow the usage of massive damage as spare time.

It still is better than many melee feats and toughness.

Raimun

2013-03-02, 09:24 PM

I'd say Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)).

Are you really that worried you can't make good baskets?

Gnome Alone

2013-03-02, 10:37 PM

I'd say Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)).

Are you really that worried you can't make good baskets?

I just want to make sure I'm making the best baskets I can be - is that so wrong!?

Big Fau

2013-03-02, 10:40 PM

Don't recall name, but the feat in Magic Incarnum that gives you 1 whole point of Essentia.

It's actually quite useful if you are a Meldshaper, although I'd put it in the same category as Improved Init (nice to have, not required).

Heavy Lithoderms (RoS) is pretty bad. Same effect as Improved Natural Armor, but for Goliaths only.

Greenish

2013-03-02, 10:43 PM

Don't recall name, but the feat in Magic Incarnum that gives you 1 whole point of Essentia.The creatively named Bonus Essentia actually gives two points of Essentia for anyone who can shape soulmelds (so, most anyone who would want to take it).

It's a nice filler for meldshapers.

Jeff the Green

2013-03-02, 10:55 PM

Dancing Blade from Ghostwalk is pretty bad. It gives you +1 to attack with a rapier. On full attacks. And requires a rank in Perform (dance).

Also Circle Magic. I really can't figure out how you could use this without getting sent to the hospital from DMG-induced head injuries.

AsteriskAmp

2013-03-02, 10:58 PM

Also Circle Magic. I really can't figure out how you could use this without getting sent to the hospital from DMG-induced head injuries.Leadership, or a party of Galleros (Ghostwalk), or a party of circle based wizards. A helmet is the other choice.

Raimun

2013-03-02, 11:24 PM

I just want to make sure I'm making the best baskets I can be - is that so wrong!?

No, it's not wrong. I'm sorry, I didn't realize people would feel so strongly about basketweaving.

Perhaps the feat could become a better choice. Who knows if there will be a future Pathfinder Prestige Class that focuses on basketweaving to harness the innate power of... the baskets.

ZamielVanWeber

2013-03-02, 11:30 PM

Skill Focus (Craft) is a great way to get around a DM who really feels that gold is rare and you cannot have it.

Cirrylius

2013-03-03, 12:06 AM

Skill Focus (Craft) is a great way to get around a DM who really feels that gold is rare and you cannot have it.
Out of curiosity, how does Craft stack up against Profession for earning downtime chump-change?

ZamielVanWeber

2013-03-03, 12:34 AM

I also forgot that Craft(basket weaving) is a prerequisite for Metaphysical spellshaper.
As for money that depends on what you are crafting where and how big the DC is. Making mithril baskets for fashionable rich folk nets enourmous wealth.

SowZ

2013-03-03, 12:39 AM

Out of curiosity, how does Craft stack up against Profession for earning downtime chump-change?

They both earn the same, one half of your check per week. But I think it is a little easier to get your craft skill a bit higher and it is more useful overall.

Vaz

2013-03-03, 01:08 AM

Venger

2013-03-03, 01:30 AM

Undead Meldshaping

1) There's one more race out there which needs access to Wis (or other form) of Meldshaping; Constructs. Why are these ignored?
2) This sort of thing should be written into the class features, and not require a feat.

1) because unless you take 10 levels of green star adept, there is no way for a pc to be a construct without a constitution score.
2) agreed. they should just use their cha like they do with concentration checks

Yora

2013-03-03, 05:57 AM

molten_dragon

2013-03-03, 06:32 AM

Medium Armor proficiency. Who is going to wear a breastplate rather than a chain shirt at the cost of speed, acp, and a feat?

I see people take endurance/iron will/alertness/track (when not rangers)/etc. all the time and I'm perfectly okay with it, but medium armor proficiency requires a person who is probably trolling the DM.

Medium armor proficiency isn't quite as terrible as you make it out to be. It's not generally worth taking, but keep in mind that medium armor proficiency means you can wear mithral full plate, which is quite a bit better than a chain shirt for most builds.

Seharvepernfan

2013-03-03, 07:51 AM

Medium armor proficiency isn't quite as terrible as you make it out to be. It's not generally worth taking, but keep in mind that medium armor proficiency means you can wear mithral full plate, which is quite a bit better than a chain shirt for most builds.

You missed a few later posts.

Fates

2013-03-03, 08:24 AM

Well, there's Sacred Vow from BoED. Obviously, it's prerequisite for all the other "vow" feats, some of which are arguably okay, but the benefit of the feat itself is a whopping +2 bonus on diplomacy checks. I can think of several feats that do the same thing but way better, and are still terrible feats to take.

Of course, the same book also contains the Knight of Stars, Servant of the Heavens, and Favored of the Companions feats, which allow you to, once per day, call upon the power of your divine patron to gain a +1 bonus on a single roll or check, once per day- and these aren't even prerequisites for anything good.

Yora

2013-03-03, 08:29 AM

Brand of Evil is just as bad. I think it gives you a +2 bonus on Charisma checks against outsiders. Yay.

Corlindale

2013-03-03, 09:25 AM

Vital Strike from Pathfinder seems pretty shtty. I don't know anything about optimization, and even I noticed that all by myself. Rolling the damage dice of a weapon twice on a standard attack looks okay (better than weapon focus), but the prerequisite is a BAB of +6. And by that time you no longer have any use for it.

It does see use in some builds, for example druids relying on single, natural attacks with a ton of dice. And one advantage is that you can use it even though you've moved, so on some occasions it might be handy enough.

In 95% of cases full-attack blows it out of the water, though.

ShurikVch

2013-03-03, 09:30 AM

1) because unless you take 10 levels of green star adept, there is no way for a pc to be a construct without a constitution score.
Let's see:

(Awakened) Dustform (Sandstorm, pg. 161) LA +2
Helmed Horror (LEoF, pg. 175) LA +3
Battle Horror (LEoF, pg. 176) LA +4
Nimblewright (MM2, pg. 162) LA +6
Zelekhut (MM, pg. 160) LA +7
Quesar (BoED, pg. 180) LA +9

Also, from Dragon:
Conscious Scarecrows (#355, pg. 51) LA +4
Blackroot Marauder (Compendium, Volume 1, pg. 172) LA +8

Also, from Savage Species:
Homunculus LA +3
Clay Golem LA +8
Flesh Golem LA +6
Stone Golem LA +6

Xerxus

2013-03-03, 09:32 AM

Vital Strike from Pathfinder seems pretty shtty. I don't know anything about optimization, and even I noticed that all by myself. Rolling the damage dice of a weapon twice on a standard attack looks okay (better than weapon focus), but the prerequisite is a BAB of +6. And by that time you no longer have any use for it.

Well, being a titan mauler barbarian would make it at least passable. A large Bastard Sword would grant you +2d8 damage in exchange for your iterative, and devastating strike gives you another 4.

SowZ

2013-03-03, 12:50 PM

Well, being a titan mauler barbarian would make it at least passable. A large Bastard Sword would grant you +2d8 damage in exchange for your iterative, and devastating strike gives you another 4.

At level 12, you mean? That's an average of an extra thirteen damage on your attack. With a Strength of 26 while raging, (not high for a lvl. 12 Barb.,) even if your iteratives miss an average of a third the time and you only have a +2 weapon and no other damage boosting feats, your average damage is still halved by going this route.

ZamielVanWeber

2013-03-03, 12:58 PM

Brachiation, because boy is it rarely relevant.

Venger

2013-03-03, 01:01 PM

Let's see:

(Awakened) Dustform (Sandstorm, pg. 161) LA +2
Helmed Horror (LEoF, pg. 175) LA +3
Battle Horror (LEoF, pg. 176) LA +4
Nimblewright (MM2, pg. 162) LA +6
Zelekhut (MM, pg. 160) LA +7
Quesar (BoED, pg. 180) LA +9

Also, from Dragon:
Conscious Scarecrows (#355, pg. 51) LA +4
Blackroot Marauder (Compendium, Volume 1, pg. 172) LA +8

Also, from Savage Species:
Homunculus LA +3
Clay Golem LA +8
Flesh Golem LA +6
Stone Golem LA +6

dustform aside, all of those have enormous LA (and of course tons of RHD) so that while you may technically be able to play as them (though I don't know a dm who'd let you roll up a zelekhut) many of them lack even savage species' monster progression, so playing as one is... difficult, to say the least

relying on an awaken in order to apply a template that makes you have an int of - is... not something that most DM's allow. but let's assume that it's allowed for this exercise:

but remember, if someone confirms a crit with a bludgeoning weapon on a dustform creature, it kills you!

anyway, I don't think that any of these guys, (even the RHDless dustform) woul gain much from soulmelds

Well, there's Sacred Vow from BoED. Obviously, it's prerequisite for all the other "vow" feats, some of which are arguably okay, but the benefit of the feat itself is a whopping +2 bonus on diplomacy checks. I can think of several feats that do the same thing but way better, and are still terrible feats to take.

Of course, the same book also contains the Knight of Stars, Servant of the Heavens, and Favored of the Companions feats, which allow you to, once per day, call upon the power of your divine patron to gain a +1 bonus on a single roll or check, once per day- and these aren't even prerequisites for anything good.

I'll do you one better:

Vow of abstinence.

Despite the name, it has nothing to do with sex. instead, it's talking about drugs and poisons (including, weirdly, caffeine and alcohol)

it gives a +4 perfection bonus on fort saves versus all this stuff, which sounds pretty decent.

until you get to the fine print. like all the sacred vows, if you break it on purpose by tying off or having a coke, you lose it forever. whatevs.

also, like all the others, if you break it unintentionally (the example it gives is someone poisoning your drink) then you lose it until you can atone!

so this feat never actually does anything at all!

if you are bitten by a snake or jammed with a needle full of agony by a maiden of pain, then your feat doesn't help you.

worst feat ever.

Vaz

2013-03-03, 01:16 PM

I'll do you one better:

Vow of abstinence.

Despite the name, it has nothing to do with sex. instead, it's talking about drugs and poisons (including, weirdly, caffeine and alcohol)

it gives a +4 perfection bonus on fort saves versus all this stuff, which sounds pretty decent.

until you get to the fine print. like all the sacred vows, if you break it on purpose by tying off or having a coke, you lose it forever. whatevs.

also, like all the others, if you break it unintentionally (the example it gives is someone poisoning your drink) then you lose it until you can atone!

so this feat never actually does anything at all!

if you are bitten by a snake or jammed with a needle full of agony by a maiden of pain, then your feat doesn't help you.

worst feat ever.

Please tell me this is in the Dysfunctional rules. If not, it needs to be. Yesterday.

Venger

2013-03-03, 01:21 PM

Please tell me this is in the Dysfunctional rules. If not, it needs to be. Yesterday.

I'll port it over now

Telonius

2013-03-03, 01:27 PM

The exact wording of the feat is "you must not consume intoxicating, stimulating, depressant, or hallucinogenic substances, including alcohol, caffeine, and other drugs." I wouldn't think that being affected by an injury or contact poison would count as "consuming" a poison, let alone being an "intoxicating, stimulating, depressant, or hallucinogenic substance."

Yora

2013-03-03, 02:56 PM

Some stuff is injected, that counts as injury. And every medicine is a drug, is a poison. It all depends on the dosage.

Saidoro

2013-03-03, 04:37 PM

I stand corrected. There's Mount, too, and it lasts longer. Hundreds upon hundreds of horses. :smallamused:

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle.

Vital Strike from Pathfinder seems pretty shtty. I don't know anything about optimization, and even I noticed that all by myself. Rolling the damage dice of a weapon twice on a standard attack looks okay (better than weapon focus), but the prerequisite is a BAB of +6. And by that time you no longer have any use for it.
Vital strike is a standard action, it was intended to fix the "melee classes suck when they can't full attack" problem. It failed, but that's somewhat besides the point.

Xerxus

2013-03-03, 04:46 PM

At level 12, you mean? That's an average of an extra thirteen damage on your attack. With a Strength of 26 while raging, (not high for a lvl. 12 Barb.,) even if your iteratives miss an average of a third the time and you only have a +2 weapon and no other damage boosting feats, your average damage is still halved by going this route.

No, at level 7.

Barsoom

2013-03-03, 04:47 PM

In this same vein, Spell Mastery. It might be good if it scaled but a fixed number of spells? Not worth it unless your DM is deliberately trying to turn your wizard into commoner. Or you're trying to be a Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) for some reason.It's a prereq for Uncanny Forethought, which is very good, and in fact I'd argue it's good enough to be worth the feat tax.

Saidoro

2013-03-03, 05:00 PM

It's a prereq for Uncanny Forethought, which is very good, and in fact I'd argue it's good enough to be worth the feat tax.
And in pathfinder it's a prereq for Uncanny Forethought+ (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist), which is also well worth the tax. Doesn't make the feat any less poorly designed, though.

Greenish

2013-03-03, 05:32 PM

And every medicine is a drug, is a poison. It all depends on the dosage.Not in D&D. You can't OD on healing potions, no matter how much you go over the Cleric General's recommended maximum dosage.

Telonius

2013-03-03, 05:38 PM

Not in D&D. You can't OD on healing potions, no matter how much you go over the Cleric General's recommended maximum dosage.

I'm suddenly struck by an urge to attempt to drown someone in healing potions...

Venger

2013-03-03, 05:56 PM

I'm suddenly struck by an urge to attempt to drown someone in healing potions...

since each potion is only 1 oz, you'll need quite a lot of them, leading to a modified version of the adamantine door problem.

though it would be really funny if you actually planned for players to find a way of harvesting the potions (bag of holding, portable hole, enveloping pit, dust of dryness, etc) and that was their monetary recompense for the advanture

Saidoro

2013-03-03, 07:12 PM

Not in D&D. You can't OD on healing potions, no matter how much you go over the Cleric General's recommended maximum dosage.
Sure you can. Healing potions run on positive energy, and just look at what happens to you if you go to the positive energy plane. They just don't have rules for the threshold beyond which the stuff becomes dangerous.

Greenish

2013-03-03, 08:30 PM

Sure you can. Healing potions run on positive energy, and just look at what happens to you if you go to the positive energy plane. They just don't have rules for the threshold beyond which the stuff becomes dangerous.Raw positive energy does have harmful effects, but the stuff that uses it doesn't, like you pointed out yourself.

That is, if we assume that Cure Foo Wounds weren't just lying to us when they claimed to work by positive energy. After all, the spell description claims that positive energy hurts undead, but as Aldorf the Lich, retired archmage currently residing there can tell us, that's poppycock.

Sylthia

2013-03-03, 09:02 PM

Can Vital Strike be used when you use a full attack (on the first attack) as well as just a single attack? The wording is ambiguous, but an extra die roll to one attack per round seems decent.

Saidoro

2013-03-03, 09:12 PM

The attack action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack) is a specific standard action which is separate from the full attack action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Full-Attack).

Raimun

2013-03-03, 09:22 PM

Well, you could just advance (Move) and Attack (Standard) and benefit from the Vital Strike. You'd miss the +2 AB but it might still be decent... but only if you had a Large Two handed weapon. 3D6 X 2 = 6D6... +Whatever else.

That's still better than doing only single normal attack at the turn you close in, right?

I mean, Pathfinder has tamer Feats than 3.5. You can't get Swift moves or Feats as powerful as Leap attack+Shock Trooper, right?

Seriously, Vital strike should work every turn you make only one attack.

Sylthia

2013-03-03, 10:02 PM

I guess I've been misreading Vital Strike, but it helps out martial characters, so I think I'll just house-rule it to be an extra die on the first attack in a round.

Aliek

2013-03-03, 10:10 PM

Forgot the use of metamagicked to hell and reduced back to level 1 slot of a damaging cantrip which might allow the usage of massive damage as spare time.

Do I hear the sound of... Hail of stone? :smallamused:

Raimun

2013-03-03, 10:13 PM

I guess I've been misreading Vital Strike, but it helps out martial characters, so I think I'll just house-rule it to be an extra die on the first attack in a round.

Do note that you roll the damage dice (weapon damage) twice. It's not just an extra die.

Saidoro

2013-03-03, 10:25 PM

I mean, Pathfinder has tamer Feats than 3.5. You can't get Swift moves or Feats as powerful as Leap attack+Shock Trooper, right?

Yeah (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general), feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) in (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/destructive-dispel) Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/divine-interference) are (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stunning-assault-combat) much (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazing-assault-combat) weaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic).
It's the same as in 3.5, really. Most are terrible except for a few which are worth it, they've just got a slightly better grasp on their numbers so it's less obvious if that's all you're looking at.(They seem to particularly love things which screw the action economy, though.)