How can I cut off communication

[TheSkinWeaver]

Ok so I need cut off communication between two military forces. Normally it wouldn't be to difficult, but the military is from a nation of mages. I was wondering if anybody had an idea about how to stop spells like sending from getting to their intended target.

[avr]

The military will probably have one standard way of sending messages thru, and maybe one or two backup means. Rather than blocking any conceivable means you need to know what those ways are and block them.

[ArcturusV]

If you can find out the methods? Don't even bother cutting them off. Just info dump on them as well. Hijack the mystical method, give them a ton of false orders, conflicting orders, false intelligence, etc. Swarm them with so much information that the armies can't sort out what is true, and what is false, and doesn't know which way they are supposed to be going, etc.

Something like that is generally a lot easier to do than blacking them out and completely isolating them. And accomplishes the same thing in the end, a lack of reliable Command and Control as the boots on the field can no longer trust messages. So they either go completely quiet anyway, or have to resort to more mundane means which slows things down and is generally more difficult.

[Miranius]

I agree with arcturus.

completely jamming magical communication from possibly multiple sources is just not doable since there are so many ways to achieve it.

If they rely on mundane ways, maybe binding a few elementals (earth, if they use landbout messengers, air if they are flying like messenger-doves......) and task them to kill ANYTHING in a certain area...

Besides that (other than having a small army yourself that you can delegate tasks to), i`m drawing blanks.

[TheSkinWeaver]

Ok thanks. I like the idea of just Hijacking the system cause it can lead to more interesting situations, and they won't even know something has gone wrong.

[Krobar]

If you disrupt their communications they'll just find another way. If you overload their communications systems, they'll figure it out and adopt another plan for communications.

Instead of cutting communications, or overloading their system, if you can find a way to have all their communications also forwarded to you, in some sort of duplicate form, that would serve you far better. They'd never know anything was amiss, and you'd know everything they have going on.

[Jack_Simth]

Ok so I need cut off communication between two military forces. Normally it wouldn't be to difficult, but the military is from a nation of mages. I was wondering if anybody had an idea about how to stop spells like sending from getting to their intended target.

Solution: First find out what method of communication they use that they trust for military matters and long conversations. Most things are either not actually suitable, or don't provide communications that are secure.

Sending and Whispering Wind would work, except for the 25 word cap. Unless it's at-will, they're useless for more than brief messages - signaling that you need to talk.

Telepathic Bond can work... but you're going to need to Permanency it, which gets expensive fast, and it's got the problem that if you mind control (or kill) either end, messages are now corrupt (or ended).

Greater Scrying + Message can work... but then you've got someone that's sitting there deliberately failing incoming Will saves that you rely on to transmit your messages. I'm sure you can come up with multiple ways to make that a problem pretty trivially.

Teleport can work... but that's subject to the same disruption that any messenger is (death, mind control, bribery, et cetera), other than the little issue that you can't catch them in transit.

So: What method do the mages use to talk to each other that they actually trust?

[Douglas]

Greater Scrying + Message can work... but then you've got someone that's sitting there deliberately failing incoming Will saves that you rely on to transmit your messages. I'm sure you can come up with multiple ways to make that a problem pretty trivially.
Easy way to solve that: Don't Scry on the actual Message recipient.

Have a small pet, say a goldfish or something, that you use instead. Introduce all of your communication mages to the goldfish in advance, and give each of them a scale or drop of blood or something from the fish. Have two (or more if you're really concerned about reliability) such goldfish in each communication node, just in case the goldfish somehow makes a will save against a high level caster with a -10 penalty. Use Message to communicate with someone within 10' of the goldfish.

On the receiving end, use Detect Scrying (multiple instance or carefully calibrated caster level with Arcane Mastery to ensure success) to verify the sender.

To send false messages through this system, you would have to disguise yourself as an army communication mage (so the mental image from Detect Scrying will match) and do it from close enough to an actual army location that they can't tell the difference. And that's not even getting into any vocal recognition codes and such that might be in use, or the problem that your Scrying attempt might overlap with a real one from the force you're trying to impersonate.

[Jack_Simth]

Easy way to solve that: Don't Scry on the actual Message recipient.

Have a small pet, say a goldfish or something, that you use instead. Introduce all of your communication mages to the goldfish in advance, and give each of them a scale or drop of blood or something from the fish. Have two (or more if you're really concerned about reliability) such goldfish in each communication node, just in case the goldfish somehow makes a will save against a high level caster with a -10 penalty. Use Message to communicate with someone within 10' of the goldfish.

On the receiving end, use Detect Scrying (multiple instance or carefully calibrated caster level with Arcane Mastery to ensure success) to verify the sender.

To send false messages through this system, you would have to disguise yourself as an army communication mage (so the mental image from Detect Scrying will match) and do it from close enough to an actual army location that they can't tell the difference. And that's not even getting into any vocal recognition codes and such that might be in use, or the problem that your Scrying attempt might overlap with a real one from the force you're trying to impersonate.

And one Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) later, the fish is dead. If Psionics are in play, it can be done two levels earlier (and against non-dreaming targets immune to mind-affecting stuff, such as a zombie mouse) via Remote Viewing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) and any directly offensive power.

[Douglas]

And one Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) later, the fish is dead. If Psionics are in play, it can be done two levels earlier (and against non-dreaming targets immune to mind-affecting stuff, such as a zombie mouse) via Remote Viewing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) and any directly offensive power.
And if psionics are not in play, using zombie mice instead?

[Jack_Simth]

And if psionics are not in play, using zombie mice instead?
There's still ways. Eye of Power in Spell Compendium can get you there, for instance. If you compromise one of the military communications officers (via Bribery, Blackmail, Charm, Domination, Suggestion, or whatever), then you've got a message coming in from the proper person that's being dictated by you. If you have a good idea where the scry target is located (Discern Location doesn't trip Detect Scrying...) then you can send in an assasin of some form - perhaps a disposable incorporeal undead, like a Wraith - and have it destroy the scry target from underground. Oh yes, and most Wizards really don't have very good Spot checks, but Moment of Prescience can apply to a mundane Disguise check (it's an opposed roll).

[Douglas]

All of those are things that security in general would be concerned about, not just communications security in specific.

I'm not trying to claim that my method is unbeatable, just that it is at least close to being the best you can reasonably expect. Assassins, bribery, mind control, and disguises are all methods that are applicable to just about any kind of infiltration and subversion. As for Eye of Power, unlike most Scrying spells it has to physically travel to the target area and can be intercepted on the way.

[Jack_Simth]

All of those are things that security in general would be concerned about, not just communications security in specific.

I'm not trying to claim that my method is unbeatable
It was my perception of the way you phrased things that that was your intent.

, just that it is at least close to being the best you can reasonably expect. Assassins, bribery, mind control, and disguises are all methods that are applicable to just about any kind of infiltration and subversion.
Yes... but when you don't have to have the person you're controlling/duplicating anywhere near the person who you're talking to, it's much easier. Additionally, of necessity, your scry target is very, very weak. Much easier to kill it than it is your whatever-level Wizard generals which you'd otherwise have to hit.

As for Eye of Power, unlike most Scrying spells it has to physically travel to the target area and can be intercepted on the way.
That's less of a big deal than you'd think. It really only needs to get within Long range of the target (for a Fireball), it can be teleported (via Teleport Object or Greater Plane Shift, depending on whether it counts as an object or a creature), and it can be made Invisible without much trouble. Besides: It needs to last just one standard action (which, with two people working to foil this army, can be a readied action).

[Douglas]

This little exchange grew out of your question of "What method do the mages use to talk to each other that they actually trust?"

Between the two of us, I think we've come up with both a viable answer for that and some ways to disrupt it. So, uh, thread answered?:smallbiggrin:

Backup methods such as Sending might still pose problems, but as you noted they have serious limitations.

[Mnemnosyne]

It seems to me that the most logical means of communication for a force like this would be aspect mirrors (113 Complete Scoundrel). They provide audio and visual communication, exist only in sets that are attuned when they are created, so no one can create a new one to link into an existing set, and they function at any range on the same plane.

As long as they are combined with normal means of security such as passcodes and code-words to confirm the identities of the person on the other end, this would be about as secure a method of communication as talking in person. Could be fooled with illusions, disguises, or shapeshifting, along with knowledge of the codes, or bribery, etc, but it's not especially vulnerable to this any more than other methods of communication are, not to mention the need to physically gain access to one of the mirrors. For added security, they could always be used along with sending - activate the mirror, then cast a sending to confirm to the subject that you are you, since the spell explicitly states that the subject recognizes you if it knows you. And if one of them is stolen, it would be a simple matter to contact the user at the other end to inform them not to trust messages coming through the mirror.

Cutting off communication in this scenario would require stealing or destroying the mirrors. Possible, and expensive to replace (requires creating an entirely new set, so minimum of 8000 gold if the sets include only 2 mirrors) but difficult to achieve since the mirrors are undoubtedly well guarded.

[Slipperychicken]

Sending and Whispering Wind would work, except for the 25 word cap. Unless it's at-will, they're useless for more than brief messages - signaling that you need to talk.


With sufficient coding, the 25-word cap isn't as hindering as it first seems. Convert each word into a sentence, including nonsense words, and have each one express a series of words. They would probably have "Senders" with big tomes full of code-words and their meanings, whose job it is to decode Sendings.

You could potentially even break it down into fragments of nonsense-words which each represent a different word. In this case, you could transmit (essentially) unlimited data within the word-cap.