(3.P) Tome of Battle and Summoner evolutions: Would they blend?

[Propagandalf]

Let's say you are playing a low magic Pathfinder campaign with ToB allowed.

How would giving the ToB classes (Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader) the evolution progression of PF summoner's Eidolon work as balancing the lack of magic items?

Their ECL would count as their summoner level when determining how many evolution points they have and what evolution they could take.

Here's an example build of a lvl 5 Half-orc Warblade:

Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 9, Cha: 10 (20 point buy)

Evolutions: (8 evolution points)
-Claws, 1p
-Improved Damage (Claws), 1p
-Magic Attacks, 1p
-Skilled (Acrobatics), 1p
-Skilled (Perception), 1p
-Climb, 1p
-improved Natural Armor, 1p
-Energy Attacks (Fire), 2p

Maneuvers:
Lvl 1
-Sudden Leap
-Moment of Perfect Mind
-Leading the Attack

Lvl 2
-Wall of Blades
-Mountain Hammer

Lvl 3
-Iron Heart Surge

Stances:
-Hunter's Sense (1st)
-Bolstering Voice (1st)
-Leaping Dragon Stance (3rd)

Feats:
-Improved Initiative
-Vital Recovery
-Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance)


What would be the pros and cons of such change? I know that healing is always an issue in low magic campaigns but what else?

Also: Should this be in here or in Homebrew? This is my first thread so I'm not sure...

[SilverLeaf167]

Let's say you are playing a low magic Pathfinder campaign with ToB allowed.

How would giving the ToB classes (Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader) the evolution progression of PF summoner's Eidolon work as balancing the lack of magic items?

Their ECL would count as their summoner level when determining how many evolution points they have and what evolution they could take.

Here's an example build of a lvl 5 Half-orc Warblade:

Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 9, Cha: 10 (20 point buy)

Evolutions: (8 evolution points)
-Claws, 1p
-Improved Damage (Claws), 1p
-Magic Attacks, 1p
-Skilled (Acrobatics), 1p
-Skilled (Perception), 1p
-Climb, 1p
-improved Natural Armor, 1p
-Energy Attacks (Fire), 2p

Maneuvers:
Lvl 1
-Sudden Leap
-Moment of Perfect Mind
-Leading the Attack

Lvl 2
-Wall of Blades
-Mountain Hammer

Lvl 3
-Iron Heart Surge

Stances:
-Hunter's Sense (1st)
-Bolstering Voice (1st)
-Leaping Dragon Stance (3rd)

Feats:
-Improved Initiative
-Vital Recovery
-Martial Stance (Leaping Dragon Stance)


What would be the pros and cons of such change? I know that healing is always an issue in low magic campaigns but what else?

Also: Should this be in here or in Homebrew? This is my first thread so I'm not sure...
Well, are you planning to ban other mundane classes altogether or just heavily discourage players from using them? Fighters, Monks etc. really have even more use for these boosts even more than the ToB classes do.
While I think the idea itself is cool and probably wouldn't imbalance the game in relation to casters (do you have any?), it might not fit so well depending on what sort of low-magic your setting has. Is it really appropriate for otherwise rather mundane warriors to suddenly have their hands grow claws and light on fire, or to sprout wings?

If the evolutions do fit your setting, I'd recommend giving them to every mundane class.

[Propagandalf]

SilverLeaf167
Well, are you planning to ban other mundane classes altogether or just heavily discourage players from using them? Fighters, Monks etc. really have even more use for these boosts even more than the ToB classes do.
While I think the idea itself is cool and probably wouldn't imbalance the game in relation to casters (do you have any?), it might not fit so well depending on what sort of low-magic your setting has. Is it really appropriate for otherwise rather mundane warriors to suddenly have their hands grow claws and light on fire, or to sprout wings?

If the evolutions do fit your setting, I'd recommend giving them to every mundane class.

Yes, you're right: The idea would be to give all the mundane classes the evolution benefit. Casters wouldn't get them because, well, they're casters.

The fluff being that casters exhibit their magic externally and the mundane classes internally.

This would give the mundane classes a power boost and encourage the players to choose them over casters, without actually forbidding the use of magic heavy classes.

As of the setting: I don't have one yet. I'm still testing whether the ideas I have are at least somewhat waterproof.

Thanks for the quick reply. :smallsmile:

[SilverLeaf167]

Yes, you're right: The idea would be to give all the mundane classes the evolution benefit. Casters wouldn't get them because, well, they're casters.

The fluff being that casters exhibit their magic externally and the mundane classes internally.

This would give the mundane classes a power boost and encourage the players to choose them over casters, without actually forbidding the use of magic heavy classes.

As of the setting: I don't have one yet. I'm still testing whether the ideas I have are at least somewhat waterproof.

Thanks for the quick reply. :smallsmile:
You're welcome.
I think you got my point just fine but will still clarify it further :smallwink:

When I said "what sort of low-magic" I meant the typical categories that low-magic settings can be divided into:
Dangerous: Use of magic damages the caster's physical and mental faculties, sells their soul to the devil etc. This is why most people don't use it.
Hard: Magic is very rare for some reason, usually because it's very difficult to use and requires a lot of devotion or because you need some natural talent.
Foreign: Magic isn't a native concept in the world; it might come from a far-away land, or another plane through a recently opened portal. Most people might think that it either doesn't exist or is threatening somehow.
Hidden: Magic exists in the world, and probably has existed for a long time, but most "normal" people just don't know anything about it and never really come to close contact with it. Maybe it's only used by some sort of magical creatures hiding from mankind, or perhaps there's a whole magical community hidden among us. Think Harry Potter, or Artemis Fowl, or Percy Jackson, or... geez, this is common.
Subtle: Magic isn't exactly rare, it just isn't very visual most of the time and amazing displays of magical power are legendary. Magical weapons, for example, can be found everywhere, but they won't spew flame and shoot lightning: they'll just be really good at killing stuff. They'll have a slight glow, if anything. Think Tolkien.
Forbidden: Magic is forbidden for whatever reason, typically by some sort of divine order. Pretty much all visible magic is forbidden and punishable, even by death if the inquisition is particularly zealous.

Depending on the tone you want for your campaign and whether you're willing to let the players be a bunch of special snowflakes (I guess being the only magical people in the world might sort of bring you together), any of these concepts can work. "Forbidden" can basically overlap with almost any of the other categories.

Yes, after writing this I shamelessly admit it being sort of a way to gather my own thoughts, in addition to just helping you :smalltongue: I still hope it's some use though.

[Propagandalf]

SilverLeaf167
I think you got my point just fine but will still clarify it further.:smallwink:

Good thing you clarified! :smallbiggrin: This is definitely going to be useful.
Short answer: Magic is Hard, Hidden and Forbidden.
Long answer: Magic is rare and controlled by a hidden elitistic society of magic users who vow to keep the magic "strong". This is achieved by organising
The Thunderdome http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheThunderdome every five years. Dozens enter. Only four leave.

But back to the topic. So far: Depending on the low magic setting the Evolution Benefit should help to mitigate the lack of magic items. :smallsmile: