Level drained while casting a spell

[molten_dragon]

During last night's game we ran across an interesting situation which no one at the table had ever see happen before.

I'm playing an archivist, and we were fighting some vampires, including a vampire sorceress. I was using summon greater elemental (so a full-round action to summon) when the sorceress hit me with enervation and I got 4 negative levels.

So I was supposed to lose my four highest level prepared spells (which would include the summon greater elemental spell). No one was quite sure what should happen to the spell I was in the middle of casting though.

My interpretation was that I couldn't lose that spell slot because it had already been expended. The DM wasn't sure and thought maybe I should lose it.

Not wanting to bog the game down, the DM had me roll a concentration check, I made it, the elemental killed the sorceress, everything was fine.

But does anyone know what RAW is on this? Or does RAW just not cover it?

[TuggyNE]

The DM's ruling was probably good enough; I have no idea if there's any specific RAW on this, but I rather doubt it.

It's exactly the sort of rare race condition you'd expect to be unhandled by the "code". :smallwink:

[Codyage]

Summon Greater Elemental
(Planar Handbook)

Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Druid 6,
Components: V, S, DF,
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned elemental
Duration: Concentration (maximum of 1 round/level) plus 1 round
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

"Casting Time

Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action.

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. "

I believe that since you lost the spell before the Casting time was completed, it is now gone.

The equivalent of failing a Concentration check. You don't get the spell back after putting time into it if you are disrupted.

My reasoning for it, is this. How can you continue to perform a spell, if you no longer have the spell in hand?

[molten_dragon]

I believe that since you lost the spell before the Casting time was completed it is gone. The equivalent of failing a Concentration check, you don't get the spell back after putting time into it.

Actually, that's why I thought I shouldn't lose it. Let me explain my logic.

The reason that you lose a spell if you fail a concentration check is because the spell slot is expended as soon as you begin casting. The concentration check is to see if you are able to successfully complete the casting of the spell despite distractions.

Getting hit with enervation doesn't interfere with the motions of casting the spell (at least not by RAW) it just takes away your spell slots. But that spell slot was already gone as soon as I started casting the spell, so it's not eligible to be taken away.

That's my reasoning anyway.

[Codyage]

Actually, that's why I thought I shouldn't lose it. Let me explain my logic.

The reason that you lose a spell if you fail a concentration check is because the spell slot is expended as soon as you begin casting. The concentration check is to see if you are able to successfully complete the casting of the spell despite distractions.

Getting hit with enervation doesn't interfere with the motions of casting the spell (at least not by RAW) it just takes away your spell slots. But that spell slot was already gone as soon as I started casting the spell, so it's not eligible to be taken away.

That's my reasoning anyway.

Enervation
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray of negative energy
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black ray of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.

If the subject has at least as many negative levels as HD, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).

Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack.

Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victim’s levels, but the negative levels from enervation don’t last long enough to do so.

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4×5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

[Mnemnosyne]

I agree, the spell energy is no longer locked in your mind the moment you start casting it. If something interrupts you, you lose the spell - it doesn't get retained. But if you get level drained while casting, you can't lose the spell that you've already begun to expend, because it's no longer in your mind - you've already released that energy and begun to manipulate it. It has to go for a spell that still has all its energy locked in your mind.

[Codyage]

I agree, the spell energy is no longer locked in your mind the moment you start casting it. If something interrupts you, you lose the spell - it doesn't get retained. But if you get level drained while casting, you can't lose the spell that you've already begun to expend, because it's no longer in your mind - you've already released that energy and begun to manipulate it. It has to go for a spell that still has all its energy locked in your mind.

Enervation says this however.

"Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack."

So if it is still in your mind, that is the spell slot correct? The place open in your mind for you set spells. IF the spell is no longer in your mind, and is now free to be manipulated, shouldn't Enervation remove it, because Enervation also affects spells, AND spell slots?

If it didn't than when would Enervation come into play for removing spells? Just because you are concentrating on a spell, doesn't mean it is in a void between the spell slots, or the spell. It is either in your mind, spell book, or what have you, taking a spell slot, or it is in spell form somewhere else.

[Robs]

"Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack."


Personally, I would feel safe assuming that wording was meant to differentiate between a wizard's and a sorceror's methods of casting.

[molten_dragon]

Enervation says this however.

"Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack."

So if it is still in your mind, that is the spell slot correct? The place open in your mind for you set spells. IF the spell is no longer in your mind, and is now free to be manipulated, shouldn't Enervation remove it, because Enervation also affects spells, AND spell slots?

If it didn't than when would Enervation come into play for removing spells? Just because you are concentrating on a spell, doesn't mean it is in a void between the spell slots, or the spell. It is either in your mind, spell book, or what have you, taking a spell slot, or it is in spell form somewhere else.

I think it's using 'spell or spell slot' to cover both prepared spells (i.e. cleric, wizard, archivist, etc.) and spontaneous casters (i.e. sorcerer, favored soul, etc.) who don't have specific spells prepared, only slots to cast their spells known.

[Lapak]

I think the ruling on the table was fine, though I would have ruled that you lost the spell. And it does require a ruling, as this isn't quite covered by RAW.

The reasoning behind thinking that you'd lose the spell: among other things, Enervation drains you of spell energy (as people have been saying.) Your rationale was that the spell construct is no longer in your mind to be drained; while that's true, the whole reason that the spell isn't yet in effect is that you haven't finished casting it yet. The reason that you can lose a spell if hit while casting is that you've taken it out of the vault of your mind but not yet released it; essentially, you're juggling it in your hands now.

Now, an Enervation spell isn't going after your mind specifically, just spell energy that you have hold of, so I'd actually rule that a spell you're in the middle of casting is the very first thing you lose - it's right out there in the open, so to speak, when the Enervation comes rolling in.

[TuggyNE]

Personally, I would feel safe assuming that wording was meant to differentiate between a wizard's and a sorceror's methods of casting.
I think it's using 'spell or spell slot' to cover both prepared spells (i.e. cleric, wizard, archivist, etc.) and spontaneous casters (i.e. sorcerer, favored soul, etc.) who don't have specific spells prepared, only slots to cast their spells known.

Yeah, that was my initial assumption, and if memory serves, near-identical language is used elsewhere unambiguously specifically to cover both prepared and spontaneous casting.