Why do exotic weapons suck?

[silverwolfer]

Why do most of the exotic weapons suck compared to the melee counter parts, some have the worst stats possible

does this just to show, if it works and is effective everyone would use it, so it is more common knowledge on how to use it, while the more unique things are not as good therefore not as trained for?

[Spiryt]

3rd edition/3.5 weapon system suck in general, IMHO, so exotic weapons inevitably suck as well. :smallwink:

There's a lot of weapons that noone ever uses, especially like 95% of exotic ones are pointless.

[Agincourt]

Do they? I thought that many of the exotic weapons are comparable to martial weapons, maybe even a little bit better, but you have to spend a feat to use them. Then you have to contend with martial weapons being less likely to be in random treasure.

[Postmodernist]

Most are simply mechanically obviated. Why use this weapon at 2d4 when another source has the same at 2d6?

[Starbuck_II]

Why do most of the exotic weapons suck compared to the melee counter parts, some have the worst stats possible

does this just to show, if it works and is effective everyone would use it, so it is more common knowledge on how to use it, while the more unique things are not as good therefore not as trained for?

3.5 or PF?
PF designers say they make them cost a feat because they are exotic not because they are any useful. Although sometimes they are useful.

3.5: PF reasons but sometimes there are execptions like Spiked Chain was a useful and worth the feat.

Give examples to what you mean?
Oh, and useful for monk in flurry translate into worth a feat to designers. :smalltongue:

[Deepbluediver]

Because "exotic" weapons was taken to mean mostly things that where either not European (monk weapons) or didn't normally function as weapons (scythe) and the cost of a feat gets you, at most, a little more damage or larger crit range, if that.

To make exotic weapons good, they should do something that other weapons don't. Why do people like the spiked chain? Because it's a weapon with Reach that lets you attack adjacent squares.

I've got a few ideas for some of the other ones, but it's kind of tricky making them worth a feat without being OP.

Edit: example- the scythe has a x3 crit multiplier, but lets you used Cleave and Greater Cleave with that weapon. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but at least it's mildly more interesting.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Light Melee Exotic Weapons... I agree, I'm not impressed.

One Handed Melee Weapons... an increase in die type - so 1d8 to 1d10 comparing longsword to bastard sword... and requiring a feat.

Two Handed Melee... medieval Darth Maul weapons... ugh... but requiring Two Weapon Fighting to really make use of that extra attack at -2. Um... Not really my fantasy concept.

Exotic Ranged... eh, special attacks (bola). Still require a feat. The repeating crossbows are nice if you want to use a feat to do similar damage (or one die more) than a longbow.

I assume the exotic weapons are slightly better or equivalent than their martial counterparts for game balance? Or maybe the Exotic weapons are for GMs to customize an NPC bad guy to be unique?

All my players avoid the Exotic weapons. My eldritch knight had a few feats from Fighter to use, so he picked up Exotic Bastard Sword and Weapon Focus Bastard Sword, but the 1d8 to 1d10 upgrade is not really worth it. I'd have been better off going longsword, but there's no takebacks in our game, and we've been running the same characters for two years now.

[Xerxus]

The Falcata in Pathfinder is pretty nice. The dwarven weapons as well as the elven curve blade are nice for their respective races. The spiked chain is awesome in 3.5. But overall, it's usually not worth a feat.

[OracleofSilence]

Well... If you are playing a Warblade, or somehow got weapon aptitude, they can be useful, and some, like the spiked chain (PHB), kasuri-gama (DMG), dragonsplints (MMIV) can be worth it for specific builds.

In general? Not so great. Some are outright horrible. But there are a few of them that stand out from practically any competition you put them in (at least in my experience).

[Hylas]

It comes from a time when they originally envisioned feats to be much weaker, and exist more for fluff than mechanics, than what they ended up being at the end of the d20 lifecycle. 2e didn't even have feats so they were probably trying to be conservative (nor were all skills meant to be maxed out, see "rope use" for reference). If you compare exotic weapons to early feats such as weapon focus and skill focus then it's much more comparable in power. If you compare a bastard sword to a longsword with weapon specialization, the numbers are similar, but not quite balanced (longsword is better). Most exotic weapons are probably a fragment of 3.0 that never got revisited and, unfortunately, all future exotics are compared these old ones for balance.

The only noteworthy exotic weapons are the spiked chain specific whip builds.

EDIT: Someone at Paizo realized spiked chain builds can be awesome, so they removed the reach ability but left it as exotic, making it objectively worse than a heavy flail in every way (unless you need a trip/disarm weapon that does piercing damage). Whenever the spiked chain is mentioned assume the 3.5 one.

[limejuicepowder]

As others have said, the benefit of nearly every exotic weapon is so small that a feat just can't be justified. I think this is unfortunate, since there are many flavorful exotic weapons and armors.

To try and make exotic items more palatable, I've homebrewed proficiency to cost 3 skill points rather than a feat. Now a player can use some crazy (and cool) weapon without feeling like they are stabbing themselves in the foot with that very weapon.

[Quorothorn]

This likely originated because "Exotic" weapons are just that--exotic, strange (non-European in some cases), needing a different methodology in wielding them compared to standard martial weapons. This does not mean any of them necessarily end up being better, because IRL weapons that are notably "weird" are...not standard combat weapons for reasons, one of which can be "inefficient".

So, as a result, in Core, the Exotic Weapons are basically all double weapons (which have their own problems), monk weapons (speaks for itself), weapons with a minor advantage over a martial weapon that is not worth a feat investment to get (the Bastard Sword--further hampered because "getting" to wield a weapon one-handed is not very optimal when two-handed Power Attacking is the "standard" source of real damage)...and the Spiked Chain, which in sharp contrast to every other Exotic weapon actually has a nice list of special abilities (has reach while threatening close-in, too; has trip, a bonus to disarm attempts; can be Finessed, but is also a two-handed weapon and thus can be Power Attack'd with).

More decent or at least potentially interesting Exotic weapons were introduced in later books (Gnome Quickrazor, maybe the Mancatcher, etc)...but most of them are still either double weapons or something that gives an "advantage" over the martial equivalent that is likely not quite worth a Feat slot in most peoples' estimations. Greatbow is an example of this: just like the Bastardsword/Longsword comparison, the Greatbow has a d10 for damage whereas the Longbow has d8. This results in about a point of average damage in exchange for a Feat--Weapon Specialization gives a steady +2 and it's still considered not that powerful of a Feat, so...

If it was noticeably easier to gain proficiency (if all classes that naturally had full martial proficiency also had one Exotic Weapon, for example; if the Fighter automatically gained proficiency with a number of exotic weapons as they advanced; etc), AND/OR if more Exotic Weapons offered clear advantages and/or special tricks like the Spiked Chain, then they'd get more use in the game.

Bolas, for example, have always seemed neat to me, but at the same time, it is questionable if a character "should" really be spending a Feat to use them.

Tl;dr Exotic =/= efficient and even when they tried to give Exotic Weapons an advantage over their Martial "equivalents" the difference is generally not considered "worth" one of your Feats to use it. Also, double weapons are silly.

[Eldariel]

More decent or at least potentially interesting Exotic weapons were introduced in later books (Gnome Quickrazor, maybe the Mancatcher, etc)...but most of them are still either double weapons or something that gives an "advantage" over the martial equivalent that is likely not quite worth a Feat slot in most peoples' estimations. Greatbow is an example of this: just like the Bastardsword/Longsword comparison, the Greatbow has a d10 for damage whereas the Longbow has d8. This results in about a point of average damage in exchange for a Feat--Weapon Specialization gives a steady +2 and it's still considered not that powerful of a Feat, so...

Greatbow has the singular advantage of working with Exotic Weapon Master unlike Longbow tho, which enables it to benefit of Close-Combat Shot easily among other things. Also, of course, size increases enhance the die difference (more important on Ranged Weapons since no ranged Power Attack).

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Greatbow is the one I usually see it being worth. Spiked Chain I don't. Because while the chain is great... if a DM even smells a hint of you going Spiked Chain I usually get told No and possibly a book thrown at me. But generally they don't like it. And DMs can screw your day over bad enough without purposefully ticking them off. :smallannoyed:

There's some I always wanted to use and seemed like they'd be nifty in their own way. Bolas, Nets, etc. Just never could really afford the feats to burn on trying out something just because it was "Neat" when I'm struggling to keep my head above water as much as possible as is.

[Archmage1]

meh, just eat the -4 penalty for non-proficient.
Reminds me of a story with a sorc(probably with a strength penalty), dual wielding nun-chucks.

Because sometimes hitting things is just not as much fun as flailing around...

[Ninjadeadbeard]

3rd edition/3.5 weapon system suck in general, IMHO, so exotic weapons inevitably suck as well. :smallwink:

Wait, why does 3.5 weapon system suck?

[Frozen_Feet]

The exotic weapons suck because whoever wrote D&D 3.x weapon rules had the stupid and did not actually think of what he was writing. Oh, and he probably didn't even look up the pictures of the weapons.

Seriously. Kama and the Sickle are the same thing! Sai is similar to dagger in shape and can be used in a similar way. Nunchaku is small flail that you are less likely to kill yourself with than the big one. Siangham is essentially a punching dagger. Shurikens are essentially fancy-shaped darts.

But really, it's not just exotic weapons. A lot of (admittedly clunky) things that used to differentiate weapons were removed as the system was simplified. This lead to damage dice being the main difference between most weapons. They could've remedied this by creating maneuvers or fighting styles based on specific weapons, but they dropped the ball for giving martial artists nice thing all the way until Tome of Battle, but sadly, most maneuvers simply make the exact weapon you're using even less relevant.


Wait, why does 3.5 weapon system suck?

The differences (and, as you should get from above, similarities) of weapons are largely ignored, and particular weapons are rarely given any special support. This means it mostly doesn't matter what you have at hand, and only one or two weapons are actually worth specializing in.

Nevermind that some weapons are given conflicting traits. Sai, for example, gets +4 to disarm, but as a "light weapon", it takes -4 penalty to disarm.

[Kyberwulf]

A sorcerer using nunchucks made me think of the Lightning Bolt Guy crossed with the lightsaber kid. lol

[Amnestic]

If Exotic Weapons are largely undesireable because of the feat tax, would something akin to the Otyugh Hole for EWP be a good concept? Pay some gold, train for [time period] with some experts, come out of it being basically proficient?

Obviously it doesn't fix problems like

Sai, for example, gets +4 to disarm, but as a "light weapon", it takes -4 penalty to disarm.

that, but it might open it up a little more.

[Spiryt]

Wait, why does 3.5 weapon system suck?

Plenty of mostly mechanically useless weapons, (particularly exotic), huge headache about what exactly is 'simple' and what 'exotic' and why.

General imbalance, like scythe having in general more stuff than falchion (not by much, but still why exactly?) and so on.

Weapons being bland marginally different from each other, until whip, spiked chain etc. are exceptions in having a bit different mechanics from some reason.

Maybe 'suck' is strong word, but it's certainly not elegant, balanced nor interesting.

[Frozen_Feet]

Making all monk weapons into simple weapons, and all other exotic weapons into martials ones, would be a bette choice. Just do away with the feat tax entirely.

Alternatively, change how the actual feat works, and create support for fighting styles using specific weapons. I'm well on my way to do this in my homebrew feat fix.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, dropping things like Weapon Speed, different attack rates for different weapons (Your Greatsword fighter would only get 1 attack per round, longsword user getting 3 attacks every 2 rounds. The dart specialist which was an odd beast at combat getting 5 attacks every round and could routinely out damage even your greatsword berserker), Weapon vs Armor interactions, etc. Made combat go faster but also made weapon choice less interesting and more a function of grabbing the best two-handed damage dice I could.

[Clistenes]

The whole weapon system doesn't make sense. Axes, hatchets, machetes, billhooks (both long and short-handled) and hammers should be simple weapons, those are tools and peasants should know how to use them (horseman's picks, horseman's axes, poleaxes, danish axes, warhammers, Lucerne's hammers...etc., on the other hand should indeed be martial).

The scythe should be exotic, since it makes an incredibly cumbersome weapon.

The fauchard should be martial, and not simple. The fact that peasants can easily make them out of scythes or big sickles doesn't make the weapon easier to use.

I'm OK with many oriental-themed exotic weapons not being better than martial ones, but there should exist a special feat that gives you proficiency with all the oriental weapons, and not a single one (at least those that haven't better stats than martial ones).

[ArcturusV]

Or just a cultural background trait that makes oriental weapons martial and/or Simple instead of Exotic. Which seems to be a logical step for me.

[Clistenes]

Yes, but I'm speaking of people who doesn't come from an oriental culture and just trained with those weapon at some point. It could be a fighter feat.

[Greenish]

3.5 exotic weapons are mostly slightly better than their martial counterparts, with the exception of monk weapons. They're just not a big enough improvement to be worth a feat, usually, though if you lack martial weapon proficiency from your classes, it's better to take EWP than MWP. Swapping around weapon familiarity can also make some exotic weapons worth using, as can some PrCs and other features.


PF exotic weapons are exotic just for flavour, with some of them almost accidentally being better than martial ones, while others actually being worse. On the other hand, I've been given to understand that you can pick up the proficiency with traits, which may be worth it.


[Edit]: UA has the alternative weapon proficiency system of weapon groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm), which is worth a look.

[Eldariel]

Plenty of mostly mechanically useless weapons, (particularly exotic), huge headache about what exactly is 'simple' and what 'exotic' and why.

General imbalance, like scythe having in general more stuff than falchion (not by much, but still why exactly?) and so on.

Weapons being bland marginally different from each other, until whip, spiked chain etc. are exceptions in having a bit different mechanics from some reason.

Maybe 'suck' is strong word, but it's certainly not elegant, balanced nor interesting.

The AD&D Proficiency system was far superior, all things considered (like most other weapon-related rules in the system). Implement it as is, enable buying extra proficiencies with feat and give Fighters extra progression options and you're good to go.

[nedz]

Given that the Monk weapons were all just modified farming implements it does seem strange that they exotic. Obviously it's because Monks are special :smallwink:

Maybe you should make a home-brew Commoner variant which gets all of the Monk weapon proficiencies for free ?

[catsora]

While many exotic weapons are rather unimpressive, there are some that stand out like the previously mentioned spiked chain. Other such weapons include the Greathorn minotaur warhammer (1d12 19-20 x4) and Falcata (1d8 19-20 x3). Its just that most exotic weapons are slightly improved versions of other more conventional weapons.

[Daftendirekt]

The exotic weapons suck because whoever wrote D&D 3.x weapon rules had the stupid and did not actually think of what he was writing. Oh, and he probably didn't even look up the pictures of the weapons.

Seriously. Kama and the Sickle are the same thing!

To respond to bolded text: did you?

Kama
http://www.kobudoindia.com/photo/full/kama2.jpg

Sickle
http://www.chillingtontoolsonline.co.uk/images/products/large/Sickle.jpg

Similar, yes, but not the same.

As for sai and dagger - Sai are blunt, and their long curved crossguards are designed for disarming. Not the same as a sharp, pointy dagger with a flat, horizontal crossguard.

Punching dagger and Siangham...These are in no way the same. Sure, they're both used for stabbing. So is a rapier. Is a rapier the same as a punching dagger and a siangham?

The game presents a lot of statistically redundant options because people like variety, even if some of that variety isn't actually very good.

[Greenish]

I always thought that the sickle (and the scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe)) in the weapons section were actual weapons, not just farming implements.

[Shadroth]

Oh, and he probably didn't even look up the pictures of the weapons.

Also, if you look in the PHB at Maces, Morningstars and Flails.

The picture given for a Morningstar is actually just an alternate Mace.
The picture given for a Flail is actually a Morningstar.
Flails don't have a spiky ball on the end, they're just chains.

[Daftendirekt]

Also, if you look in the PHB at Maces, Morningstars and Flails.

The picture given for a Morningstar is actually just an alternate Mace.
The picture given for a Flail is actually a Morningstar.
Flails don't have a spiky ball on the end, they're just chains.

Nope. Maces have flanges, if anything. Morningstars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon)) have spikes. Flails (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_weapon) are not just chains.

[chronomatophobe]

One could argue that shuriken are better than daggers for throwing builds if one happens to be proficient with them. If not, then quick draw is a much better feat than EWP (Shuriken).

[Clistenes]

I always thought that the sickle (and the scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe)) in the weapons section were actual weapons, not just farming implements.

All the art shows the sickles and scythes being normal farming scythes and sickles (and the sickles are considered simple weapons because the commoners are familiar to them and know how to use them).

I think the canon rules don't consider the fauchard and war scythe as being different weapons.

[nedz]

I always thought that the sickle (and the scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe)) in the weapons section were actual weapons, not just farming implements.

They are early examples of dual use technology.

[Arbane]

D&D could've done a lot worse to steal from Unknown Armies' weapon 'system':

To adapt it:
Is it small? 1d4 damage.
Is it normal-sized? 1d6 damage.
Is it big? 1d8 damage.
Is it twohanded? 2d6 damage.
Is it sharp? 19-20 crit range.

There. DONE.

As it is, D&D/PF has a system where once again, there are clear (usually) 'right' and 'wrong' choices, and anyone who picks a suboptimal weapon for whatever reason is DOIN IT WRONG.

[nedz]

As it is, D&D/PF has a system where once again, there are clear (usually) 'right' and 'wrong' choices, and anyone who picks a suboptimal weapon for whatever reason is DOIN IT WRONG.

I'm led to believe that this was a design principle, at least for the core rules.

[Amnestic]

D&D could've done a lot worse to steal from Unknown Armies' weapon 'system':

To adapt it:
Is it small? 1d4 damage.
Is it normal-sized? 1d6 damage.
Is it big? 1d8 damage.
Is it twohanded? 2d6 damage.
Is it sharp? 19-20 crit range.

There. DONE.

As it is, D&D/PF has a system where once again, there are clear (usually) 'right' and 'wrong' choices, and anyone who picks a suboptimal weapon for whatever reason is DOIN IT WRONG.

Why would you use anything other than a two-handed greatsword (or equivalent two handed+sharp weapon) under that system?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Also, if they were so much better than martial weapons that the choice was obvious, exotic weapon proficiency would just become a feat tax, and would be a penalty for classes that couldn't afford it.

[Xerxus]

Also, if they were so much better than martial weapons that the choice was obvious, exotic weapon proficiency would just become a feat tax, and would be a penalty for classes that couldn't afford it.

So we would be improving

Fighters

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Why would you use anything other than a two-handed greatsword (or equivalent two handed+sharp weapon) under that system?

Because they want to use a fighting style other than swing a big two handed sharp thing. THF being the best is a seperate issue. This would give you a bunch flavor options for THF, TWF, X and boarding, and concealed weapons.


Also, if they were so much better than martial weapons that the choice was obvious, exotic weapon proficiency would just become a feat tax, and would be a penalty for classes that couldn't afford it.


So we would be improving

Fighters

I agree, though they shouldn't be so good that not using them is always wrong assuming that it would bug you if nobody ever used a sword again. If all the best weapons of antiquity being for chumps is cool with you then go wild. Sometimes it's fun imagining the world where Spiked Chains and Minotaur Hammers are the norm for "real warriors".

[Squirrel_Dude]

So we would be improving

FightersSince when was that allowed.

[Greenish]

All the art shows the sickles and scythes being normal farming scythes and sickles (and they are considered simple weapons because the commoners are familiar to them and know how to use them).The art, well, I don't consider it representative of anything except maybe poor art direction.

For that matter, scythe is a martial weapon. The farming implement would have to be exotic, since it'd be nearly impossible to use as an effective weapon.

[Cirrylius]

One could argue that shuriken are better than daggers for throwing builds if one happens to be proficient with them. If not, then quick draw is a much better feat than EWP (Shuriken).

Grrr. This^

I just about lost my mind when I realized that those darts my rogue was carrying around weren't ammunition, and she couldn't her TWF unless she carried 'em around in her hands the whole time, AND she couldn't get more than 2 attacks per round even in that case.

Then we found a crapton of gold and I discovered Least Crystals of Returning, so that took some of the sting out:smallbiggrin:

[Clistenes]

The art, well, I don't consider it representative of anything except maybe poor art direction.

For that matter, scythe is a martial weapon. The farming implement would have to be exotic, since it'd be nearly impossible to use as an effective weapon.

You are right, the scythe is martial. I was referring to the sickle only, but I blundered.

The scythe is martial because it's so difficult to use, and you are right, it should be exotic, I said the same earlier.

But still, I think the sickle and scythe are the normal farming tools. There are weapons that have been sometimes called "war sickle" (the falx) and "war scythe" (the fauchard), but those aren't really sickles and scythes and have stats of their own.

[Greenish]

But still, I think the sickle and scythe are the normal farming tools.I don't, mostly because it makes a lot more sense for them to be actual weapons, given they're statted as such (and not as improvised weapons like, say, a crowbar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#crowbar) or a hammer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#hammer)).


There are weapons that have been sometimes called "war sickle" (the falx) and "war scythe" (the fauchard), but those aren't really sickles and scythes and have stats of their own.I couldn't find stats for falx, and the fauchard is from Dragon Magazine, so those are hardly an argument against the sickle and scythe being weapons.


But, I'm not talking about RAW or RAI, just how I imagine them.

[Coidzor]

You are right, the scythe is martial. I was referring to the sickle only, but I blundered.

The scythe is martial because it's so difficult to use, and you are right, it should be exotic, I said the same earlier.

But still, I think the sickle and scythe are the normal farming tools. There are weapons that have been sometimes called "war sickle" (the falx) and "war scythe" (the fauchard), but those aren't really sickles and scythes and have stats of their own.

I think of the scythe as more akin to Discworld's Death's scythe than the fauchard.

Mostly though, I don't think about the sickle, being that it was pretty much handwaved in for druids to have a druidy slashing hand weapon.

I often wonder if the game wouldn't be improved by getting rid of exotic weapons as a category, I must admit.

[Deepbluediver]

I'm pretty sure that I said the Scythe was an exotic weapon back on page 1, so if anyone wants you can just blame me for misleading you.

In my defense, even a weapon simply designed like a scythe would make a pretty bad weapon. You can't stab with it, meaning you've got to chop or slash, and the shape and design means you're going to have a big swing no matter the angle of attack.
But I've always hated the realism argument so I'll just ignore that for now.



Moving on: as another posted brought up, some of the rules for combat manuevers don't interact well with weapons, particularly exotic weapons that (historically) where used for just such styles of fighting.

I might suggest a few simple houserules for some of the worst offenders:

Disarm: In movies, who is it you see running around deftly disarming people? Is it the orcs with their giant axes or the trolls with warhammers? No, it's the Jack Sparrow and d'Artagnan types, with cutlasses and rapiers.

HouseRule- no penalty with light weapons on Disarm-checks. Two-handed weapons gain a +4 bonus to avoid being disarmed only (cause you can hang on to the weapon with both hands)

Sunder: Sunder isn't used a lot, but its already based on damage, meaning two-handers with their larger damage dice already have an advantage. Also, I get that I can't break some one's axe by stabbing it with my sword (piercing damage), but what about shields? It seems like I should be able to punch through one of those.

HouseRule- No penalty or bonus to Sunder attempts from light or two-handed weapons, respectively.
Piercing weapons cannot be used to make Sunder attempts against weapons. Slashing weapons cannot be used to make Sunder attempts against shields or armor. Any weapon that can deal lethal damage can be used to make a sunder attempt.

[Worira]

Agree with the first houserule, but the second one makes axes incapable of damaging wooden shields, and there's no such thing as sundering armour anyway. And while you may be able to penetrate a shield with a piercing weapon, that doesn't necessarily mean you've made it ineffective at blocking further attacks.

[Cirrylius]

But still, I think the sickle and scythe are the normal farming tools.
The scythe, at least, is altered from the usual agricultural implement. Says so in the description. A normal farmer's scythe would probably be an improvised weapon.


I think of the scythe as more akin to Discworld's Death's scythe than the fauchard.

That's correct; Death uses the heavy double-curved scythe, not the one with the straight handle. SuperDeath (he was never specifically named, okay?) from Reaper Man used something more akin to the fauchard.



In my defense, even a weapon simply designed like a scythe would make a pretty bad weapon. You can't stab with with, meaning you've got to chop or slash, and the shape and design means you're going to have a big swing no matter the angle of attack.

Heh. Speaking of Pratchett, he had a lovely quote about how unwieldy a scythe is in the hands of the untrained, and how terrifying it is when wielded by anyone else. I can't get the exact quote online right now because our digital rights are being infringed upon again,:smallmad: but the gist is that the scythe is a really hard weapon to defend against because once it gets going, even the user isn't 100% sure where it's going to go next.

[Greenish]

That's correct; Death uses the heavy double-curved scythe, not the one with the straight handle.Death's scythe was still a farming implement (a plains-style heavy scythe), with heavy use of farming metaphors.

Didn't Death the King use a mower? Or maybe he was one. I should read the book again.

[Cirrylius]

Death's scythe was still a farming implement (a plains-style heavy scythe), with heavy use of farming metaphors.
Yeah, that's right. I didn't mean to imply he was using a war scythe, just that it was the kind pictured in the PHB.


Didn't Death the King use a mower? Or maybe he was one. I should read the book again.
His weapon was described as looking like it had had, in its distant ancestry, a scythe, in the way that even the most cunningly crafted modern surgical instrument was developed from a stick. I always imagined it as being a ridiculously baroque polearm, like a cross between a billhook and a swiss army knife. After he died was discorporated, the Auditors sicced the Disc's first combine harvester on Death in a rare display of skillful metaphor.

[Coidzor]

Death's scythe was still a farming implement (a plains-style heavy scythe), with heavy use of farming metaphors.

My understanding was that at one point it was actually said it was so different from a scythe that someone would use to harvest any kind of grain that it was more in common with the idea of the scythe than anything else, but I can't even remember which book I remember that from so I might just be misremembering entirely and conflating two or more things.


Didn't Death the King use a mower? Or maybe he was one. I should read the book again.

There was an automated thresher which was involved in Death the King's downfall as I recall, but Death the King was basically like the stereotypical cackling necromancer's conception of death, only shinier.

[Deepbluediver]

Agree with the first houserule, but the second one makes axes incapable of damaging wooden shields, and there's no such thing as sundering armour anyway. And while you may be able to penetrate a shield with a piercing weapon, that doesn't necessarily mean you've made it ineffective at blocking further attacks.

It's more about breaking stuff up, I think, and the idea was that once you rammed a couple of holes through it the shield is just about ready to fall apart anyway.

Damage types can be kind of silly; example- I can make sunder attempts with a whip. And I'm not entirely convinced that Axes should be slashing weapons anyway (or maybe at least slashing/something else). I don't really want to add another damage subtype (cleaving?) though.
How about if I just remove the differences for damage types entirely, and if you can roll well enough to shatter some ones warhammer with your rapier, then that's just the nature of the game.

As I'm certain I'm mentioned before, I stopped carring about realism the moment I started flying through the air with my talking cat, shooting fireballs out of my elbows at man-sized super-intelligent insects.


Heh. Speaking of Pratchett, he had a lovely quote about how unwieldy a scythe is in the hands of the untrained, and how terrifying it is when wielded by anyone else. I can't get the exact quote online right now because our digital rights are being infringed upon again,:smallmad: but the gist is that the scythe is a really hard weapon to defend against because once it gets going, even the user isn't 100% sure where it's going to go next.

I was actually thinking of another, lesser known, fantasy novel. Basically, a bunch of farmers are rebelling against the king, and since they don't have weapons they are trying to use farm-tools instead. A gnome goes through them all, telling them exactly why each one won't work. His conclusion about the scythe is pretty the the same deal, word for word. Something like "its dangerous to everyone around you, friend or foe".

[Daftendirekt]

How about if I just remove the differences for damage types entirely, and if you can roll well enough to shatter some ones warhammer with your rapier, then that's just the nature of the game.


Maybe just give certain items the "Sunder" property; that is, they are heavy enough to be used to destroy weapons/armor. A rapier would be one that wouldn't have that property, as it is a very slim, light weapon.

[Last Laugh]

While many exotic weapons are rather unimpressive, there are some that stand out like the previously mentioned spiked chain. Other such weapons include the Greathorn minotaur warhammer (1d12 19-20 x4) and Falcata (1d8 19-20 x3). Its just that most exotic weapons are slightly improved versions of other more conventional weapons.

I believe the Kusari-Gama is tucked away in the DMG somewhere, a one handed spiked chain so you can use snowflake wardance with it.
Orcish shotput in A&EG has 18-20/x3 IIRC. 20 ft range.

I always feel squeemish using weapons with improved threat range AND damage. Doesn't it seem like it's a typo to you? 3 or 4 items in the game have a boosted range and multiplier, without a special footnote or anything.

Sure it's legal, and not even ridiculously over the top, but it really feels like a typo to me, the pattern of weapons having a booster threat range OR multiplier is so common.

On the other hand selectively ignoring WoTC typos makes the game less silly.

[Starbuck_II]

I believe the Kusari-Gama is tucked away in the DMG somewhere, a one handed spiked chain so you can use snowflake wardance with it.
Orcish shotput in A&EG has 18-20/x3 IIRC. 20 ft range.

I always feel squeemish using weapons with improved threat range AND damage. Doesn't it seem like it's a typo to you? 3 or 4 items in the game have a boosted range and multiplier, without a special footnote or anything.

Sure it's legal, and not even ridiculously over the top, but it really feels like a typo to me, the pattern of weapons having a booster threat range OR multiplier is so common.

On the other hand selectively ignoring WoTC typos makes the game less silly.
You mean like that Scorpian Whip that deals 1d43 in Sandstorm?
Nope not a typo :smallwink:

[Answerer]

The 1d43 is absurd, and also clearly a typo since, as I recall, the 3 is missing from the next column over, but is it really so hard to believe that WotC might have wanted to make some exotic weapons actually worth something by giving them a feature like 18-20/x4? I mean, that's still not a good use of a feat, really.

[Rubik]

...but is it really so hard to believe that WotC might have wanted to make some exotic weapons actually worth something by giving them a feature like 18-20/x4? I mean, that's still not a good use of a feat, really.Actually, it can be, depending on what you're doing.

[Cirrylius]

More Pratchett stuff.

...but Death the King was basically like the stereotypical cackling necromancer's conception of death, only shinier.
Let's see if I can get this right:

"A CROWN?" Bill Door said, his voice shaking with rage. "I NEVER WORE A CROWN."
"YOU NEVER WANTED TO RULE", the new Death replied.

[Pickford]

Why do most of the exotic weapons suck compared to the melee counter parts, some have the worst stats possible

does this just to show, if it works and is effective everyone would use it, so it is more common knowledge on how to use it, while the more unique things are not as good therefore not as trained for?

Bastard Sword deals 1d10 one-handed which is higher than any martial one-handed weapon...same for the dwarven waraxe vs the battleaxe; and all the other exotic weapons feature either specials or (for the monk weapons) provide alternative damage types (likely useful when encountering something immune or resistant to bludgeoning).

Incidentally, Shuriken are useful in that it's a free action to draw ammunition, so you don't even need quickdraw to do a full attack action with them. (PHB 142)

Edit:

HouseRule- no penalty with light weapons on Disarm-checks. Two-handed weapons gain a +4 bonus to avoid being disarmed only (cause you can hang on to the weapon with both hands)

2h weapons already get a +4 bonus you don't need to houserule that. Though if you really want to disarm people, you should get a weapon of disarming as that negates the 2h bonus.

[Ryulin18]

in 3.5 there are only 3 exotic weapons worth a damn.

spiked chain

minotaur war hammer

crescent blade.

[Daftendirekt]

in 3.5 there are only 3 exotic weapons worth a damn.

spiked chain

minotaur war hammer

crescent blade.

Gnome Quickrazor.

Halfling Skiprock


I believe the Kusari-Gama is tucked away in the DMG somewhere, a one handed spiked chain so you can use snowflake wardance with it.

You have no idea how much I loathe that version of the weapon.

http://museum.hikari.us/weapons/slides/kusarigama1.jpg

Do you seriously think somebody could wield THAT with one hand? To me, the only kusarigama that exists in 3.5 is the one in OA.

[Worira]

Easy. Just use it like a Gyrspike.

[Talderas]

Why do most of the exotic weapons suck compared to the melee counter parts, some have the worst stats possible

Well. I was going to say there were some great exotic ranged weapons but since we're comparing melee weapons....

The problem is that exotic weapons require a feat to use without a -4 penalty.

That's why Targeteer is valuable (no, not for arrow swarm). It gives you two exotic weapon proficiencies for freezies so you can pick up the greatbow. However, honestly how much better is the greatbow? It's 1d10 x3 with a 130ft range compared to the 1d8 x3 with a 110ft range for the composite longbow. The advantage is an average of 1 damage higher and 20ft extra range per range increment (that scales up to an extra 200ft range on the weapon without Far Shot). However the composite greatbow cannot be used from horseback unlike the composite longbow (I'm not sure why when the regular longbow cannot be used from horseback). So ignoring that, the weapon is essentially worth +1 damage and +20ft range and if we look at applying the potentially similar feats against it (Weapon Specialization [+2 damage] and Far Shot [+55ft range]) does a single feat seem worth the benefit at the loss of the ability to shoot while mounted?

So the big reason that people like it is twofold. The first is that it pushes things to the limit. +1 damage on archery is actually pretty huge since it can be difficult to ramp up damage to deal with damage reduction but the other big reason is provided by the below quoted post.


Greatbow has the singular advantage of working with Exotic Weapon Master unlike Longbow tho, which enables it to benefit of Close-Combat Shot easily among other things. Also, of course, size increases enhance the die difference (more important on Ranged Weapons since no ranged Power Attack).

However the exotic weapon master benefit is very limited. Why dip 1 level into that class? There's a spell in Spell Compendium that is Close-Combat Shot +1.

Arrow Mind.

It's an immediate action cast time and is on the Ranger and Wizard spell lists as a 1st level spell. It lasts 1 minute per level. Aside from not provoking attacks of opportunity with ranged attacks, you also threaten with your bow an area equivalent to your reach. So you get attacks of opportunity with your bow and you provide flanking benefits to allies (since you now threaten adjacent squares).

So anyway, to restate my point. Feats are a limited resource and often times are better spent on things other than exotic weapon proficiency. If you can get exotic weapon proficiency for free (such as by being a dwarf or targeteer) then they can be useful.

[Ashtagon]

I always thought that the sickle (and the scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe)) in the weapons section were actual weapons, not just farming implements.

The sickle is a tool and a weapon. Also, the kama is basically a sickle that has "made in Japan" stamped on the handle.

The scythe is primarily a farming tool. While it does have a shape blade, it is poorly shaped and balanced for cutting anything that isn't 3 size classes smaller than the wielder. However... by detaching the blade and reattaching it to a more conventional pole "handle", it makes a convincing pole arm. This weaponised form has at various times been called a war scythe or a fauchard. It looks very different from a conventional scythe, but all the D&D artwork ever drawn only shows the farm tool configuration.

[Eldariel]

However the exotic weapon master benefit is very limited. Why dip 1 level into that class? There's a spell in Spell Compendium that is Close-Combat Shot +1.

Arrow Mind.

It's an immediate action cast time and is on the Ranger and Wizard spell lists as a 1st level spell. It lasts 1 minute per level. Aside from not provoking attacks of opportunity with ranged attacks, you also threaten with your bow an area equivalent to your reach. So you get attacks of opportunity with your bow and you provide flanking benefits to allies (since you now threaten adjacent squares).

The spell, however, runs into the problem of costing you your immediate (and thus swift) action (and of course, requiring spellcasting in and of itself), which is quite the hefty cost every round considering what else you could be doing with it.

Ultimately, I don't find Close-Combat Shot worth it and of course prepare Arrow Mind few times if I do have the slots but I could certainly see cases where it matters.

[Talderas]

The spell, however, runs into the problem of costing you your immediate (and thus swift) action (and of course, requiring spellcasting in and of itself), which is quite the hefty cost every round considering what else you could be doing with it.

Ultimately, I don't find Close-Combat Shot worth it and of course prepare Arrow Mind few times if I do have the slots but I could certainly see cases where it matters.

Yes. It's a swift action. However it is just a swift action and that's one thing I've discovered while playing a volley archer.... I don't really have any uses for swift actions since my class abilities that require an action are full round or standard actions.

[Eldariel]

Yes. It's a swift action. However it is just a swift action and that's one thing I've discovered while playing a volley archer.... I don't really have any uses for swift actions since my class abilities that require an action are full round or standard actions.

Depends. You can move as swift action (Travel Devotion, ToB maneuvers). There's plenty of counters available as swift actions, as well as other spells. Then there's the whole "item actives"; Belt of Battle, Chronocharms, etc.

[Lans]

Gnome Quickrazor.

Halfling Skiprock




boomerangs
nets
broadblade dagger if you gots 4+arms

[Rubik]

in 3.5 there are only 3 exotic weapons worth a damn.

spiked chain

minotaur war hammer

crescent blade.


Gnome Quickrazor.

Halfling Skiprock


boomerangs
nets
broadblade dagger if you gots 4+armsSpinning sword
Harpoon
Monks (summonable with the Call Weaponry power, amongst others; good as a literal meat shield, if nothing else)

[Xenogears]

2h weapons already get a +4 bonus you don't need to houserule that. Though if you really want to disarm people, you should get a weapon of disarming as that negates the 2h bonus.

I think they were changing it from +4 bonus on all disarm checks to +4 bonus only to prevent being disarmed.

So thus it would be just as easy to disarm someone else if you are wielding a 1H or 2H weapon but it would be harder to disarm someone who is wielding a 2H weapon.

[Shining Wrath]

If, and only if, you are a Warblade who can retrain EWP to any exotic you choose does EWP become worth a feat.

I took it, and I can use spiked chain, or great bow, just not both in the same day. If I believe I'm going up against a lot of mooks who will try to swarm my squishy friends, the spiked chain gets trained up. Most days, though, the great bow takes the nod, as that way I don't have to chase down flying foes and can engage at range. A size large (Strongarm Bracers) composite great bow gives 150' range increment and 2d8 + 4 (I paid for the extra strength damage).

[Shining Wrath]

Spinning sword
Harpoon
Monks (summonable with the Call Weaponry power, amongst others; good as a literal meat shield, if nothing else)

Composite great bow. Insane range.

[Person_Man]

In general, most Feats suck. Pick up any D&D book. If it has Feats in it, there are probably several dozen of them. But only a small portion of them are actually useful.

Exotic Weapons are the same. There are dozens of them. But only a small number are actually useful, and another sub-set are only useful in certain niche situations (very low level builds, or specific Prestige Classes).

Here is a list of potentially useful exotic weapons, for those who are interested:

Annulat: Planar Handbook pg 68. Thrown weapon that imposes a -2 penalty to AC against it's target. It's also noteworthy that neraphim (an pretty solid LA 0 race) treat it as a martial weapon.

Boomerang: Eberron Campaign setting pg 119: This weapon actually sucks. It deals less damage then most other thrown weapons. When it misses, you can make an attack roll to catch it. However, proficiency with this weapon qualifies you for the uber Boomerang Daze feat (Races of Eberron pg 108) forces anyone who takes damage from your boomerang to Save or be Dazed (one of the most powerful effects in the game) for 1 round, and Boomerang Ricochet (also RoE pg 108) which lets you hit a second adjacent target with your boomerang (potentially Dazing both) after you hit the first.

Braid Blade: Dungeon 120: 1d3, 18-20, x2. On a full attack, allows you to make an extra attack at -5, or -2 if you have 5 ranks of Tumble.

Collapsing Crescent Fan: Sandstorm, p. 96: +4 to attack any flat-footed foe. Great when combined with Iaijutsu Focus.

Composite Greatbow: Complete Warrior: Does 1d10 damage and has a 130 ft range increment. Useful for certain niche ranged builds.

Drow Scorpion Chain: Secrets of Xen'drik pg 137: Exactly the same as a normal Spiked Chain, except that if you happen to be a drow, you can take the Drow Skirmisher feat (which grants several proficiencies and minor bonuses) instead of Exotic Weapon Proficiency to get proficiency with it.

Elven Courtblade: Races of the Wild: 1d10, 18-20 *2. Two handed weapon can be used for both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

Flindbar: Monster Manual III: +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit.

Foot Spike: Races of the Wild: Another place to hide a weapon, just in case your DM decides to have your party taken prisoner. Not worth spending a Feat on, but having a weapon with a -4 penalty is better then having no weapon at all.

Glot: Frostburn: Can be used to make ranged trip attacks, and deals better damage then bolas or barbed bolas.

Goad: Frostburn: Reach weapon that deals non-lethal damage, in case you ever want to capture someone without killing them. Also gives you +2 to Handle Animal checks against Huge or bigger animals.

Greathammer: Monster Manual 4 or Races of Stone: 1d12, 19-20/x4 or just 20/x4, depending on which version you use. Also gives you +2 to Sunder a weapon or shield, but sundering your future treasure is generally a bad idea.

Harpoon: Frostburn: A harpooned creature moves at half speed, cannot charge or run, and if you attach a rope to it you can limit their movement away from you. It can be removed with a full round action, which deals damage again. Occasionally helpful for battlefield control. Or you can enchant it with Returning, and have a double damage ranged attack.

Heavy weapons: Basically a special way of constructing a metal weapon. Increases the damage die of the weapon based on a set chart. Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield correctly. Magic of Faerun, pg. 179.

Ice Axe: Frostburn: +4 to Climb checks. Not worth spending a Feat for proficiency, but worth keeping in your backpack for the Skill bonus.

Jovar: Planar Handbook: 2d6, 18-20, *2. With high damage and a high threat range, this a respectable pure damage dealing weapon. Buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges.

Kaorti weapons: Fiend Folio web enhancement: *ANY* weapon can be made out of kaorti, which gives it a crit multiplier of x4. You need an EWP for a kaorti version of a weapon (even if it is already exotic), but... hey, no problem for Haberdash! Combine with a Keen Elven Courtblade or something similar for a ridiculous crit. Of course, this is a ridiculously exotic weapon, as you need to convince an Evil Outsider to make it for you (or accept the +4 LA to be a Kaorti yourself). My suggestion is that you invest in Knowledge (Planes), and ask your DM for a side quest to get one.

Kusari-Gama: DMG: A one handed reach weapon, which is useful for certain builds. The Spinning Sword (see below) is superior, but comes from a more obscure source.

Lasso: Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 34: Using a lasso is a ranged touch attack that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 on Dex (no Save).

Longstaff: Complete Adventurer: If you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise while using this weapon, you can’t be flanked. Screw you Rogues!

Mancatcher: Complete Warrior: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Also, as long as your enemy can’t reach you, they can’t attack you or do anything other then attempt to move or escape from the grapple.

Net: PHB: Using a net is a ranged touch attack (maximum range of 10 feet) that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 to Dex, 1/2 movement, and you can’t charge or run (no Save).

Orc Shotput: Sword & Fist, p. 71: One of the best thrown weapons in the game: 2d6 damage, 19-20 crit, x3 multiplier.

Pincer Staff: Underdark: Basically a mancatcher that deals more damage.

Razor Net: Dragon Compendium, p. 115: All the hassle of a regular net, and it does 1d6 damage.

Ritiik: Frostburn: If you successfully hit an enemy, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt. Basically a weaker version of Knock-Down, but with fewer pre-reqs.

Scorpion Claws: +4 to Grapple checks. The bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with Improved Grapple. They're also light weapons, so no Power Attack, but yes for TWF. Sandstorm.

Sharktooth Staff: Savage Species: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Unlike the mancatcher or pincer staff, it has no reach. But it deals the best damage. It’s also worth mentioning that they each have size restrictions.

Spiked Chain: PHB: Useful if you have a ton of reach and a potent magic weapon with an AoO build. But most of the time you can just use a glaive and a 5 ft step. If you're really in a pinch, use armor spikes.

Spinning Sword: Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Useful if you want to be a sword and board build, or a TWF build.

Sugliin: Frostburn: Does 2d8 damage, but it’s a full round action to make 1 attack. But hey, until you get to +6 BAB, this is your weapon of choice for pure damage dealing when you’re already standing next to your enemy.

Whip Dagger: Drow of the Underdark: 15 feet of reach, which might be helpful on occasion. You can also use it with the Whip Climber Skill Trick to do Indiana Jones-ish swinging.

Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow: Secrets of Xen'drik pg 137: A bow with curved blades at the edges. You can use it as a ranged weapon or as a melee weapon interchangeably, and it is a treated as a double weapon for magical enhancements (you enchant the bow part and the blade part separately). Not that useful for Haberdash specifically, but a nifty choice for bow builds that fight in dungeons and other closed in spaces a lot.

It's also worth mentioning that a Master of Masks or Binder (using an online vestige) can gain proficiency with all Exotic Weapons. The Warblade can change any weapon specific Feat (like Exotic Weapon Proficiency) using his Weapon Aptitude ability. You can gain a floating bonus Feat with Chameleon. And Heroics spell (Spell Compendium) gives you a Fighter bonus feat of your choice that you otherwise qualify for. So even if you don't spend a Feat on an Exotic Weapon, it still might be useful for use with these options.

[Answerer]

I disagree with your analysis of how Kaorti proficiency requirements work. You need Exotic Weapon Proficiency in the weapon in question, even if it isn't normally Exotic. But you don't need a second EWP for the Kaorti version. See the text:

Weapons made from kaorti resin require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to wield, and each must be specific to each ribbon weapon. For example, if the character acquires one of the ribbon longswords of wounding wielded by the Guardians of Gloom and Despair, she must take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (longsword) feat.(emphasis mine)

Therefore, if you're using an Exotic weapon that deals Piercing or Slashing damage, it almost might as well be made of Kaorti resin.

[Talderas]

Composite great bow. Insane range.

Composite Longbow 110ft. 165ft with Far Shot.
Composite Greatbow 130ft (+20). 195ft with Far Shot (+30).

It's nothing particularly spectacular or insane regarding ranged when comparing the two. The advantage is that you can force a -2 penalty on a longbow wielding foe without accepting one yourself. Same basic advantage between shortbow and longbow.

[Shining Wrath]

Composite Longbow 110ft. 165ft with Far Shot.
Composite Greatbow 130ft (+20). 195ft with Far Shot (+30).

It's nothing particularly spectacular or insane regarding ranged when comparing the two. The advantage is that you can force a -2 penalty on a longbow wielding foe without accepting one yourself. Same basic advantage between shortbow and longbow.

It's also more damage than the longbow. If you get into combat at range, the combination of more damage and longer range increment really pays off. Is a bastard sword enough better than a longsword to justify EWP? Maybe not. But what if the bastard sword also gave you reach?

[Ashtagon]

It's also more damage than the longbow. If you get into combat at range, the combination of more damage and longer range increment really pays off. Is a bastard sword enough better than a longsword to justify EWP? Maybe not. But what if the bastard sword also gave you reach?

Range aside, Weapon Specialisation is a better feat investment.

For 99% of D&D encounters, the range difference barely matters between the two.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I disagree with your analysis of how Kaorti proficiency requirements work. You need Exotic Weapon Proficiency in the weapon in question, even if it isn't normally Exotic. But you don't need a second EWP for the Kaorti version.

I didn't think Personman's analysis indicated that. It doesn't say that proficiency in the original weapon is a prerequisite. For continuity purposes you'll probably want to start with the normal exotic proficiency and retrain later.

[Answerer]

There is no Kaorti-specific EWP. You just need EWP in the weapon type, even if it is not normally exotic. EWP (longsword) is the explicit example. So someone with EWP (spiked chain) could use a Kaorti-resin Spiked Chain without issue. No retraining or additional feats necessary.

[Pickford]

I think they were changing it from +4 bonus on all disarm checks to +4 bonus only to prevent being disarmed.

So thus it would be just as easy to disarm someone else if you are wielding a 1H or 2H weapon but it would be harder to disarm someone who is wielding a 2H weapon.

You're making a disarm check if you're disarming or being disarmed, it's always +4 if you have a 2h (unless the opponent has a disarming weapon of course)

edit: 2h melee of course

further edit: Xenogears you're right I misread the posting, thank you for pointing it out.

[Vaz]

Aptitude or Skillful Weapon just bypasses this need for EWP short of Prerq's.

As for the feats- aptitude weapon with an EWP, Lightning Maces, Boomerang Daze, boomerang ricochet, Martial Study X, Martial Stance - Blood in the Water, looks like brilliant fun. Throw in the monk weapon feats, Charisma or Monk Feat synergy as needed, Oversized TWF etc, and off you pop.

Invisible fist Martial Monk 2/Fighter 2/Psywar 1/Fighter X/Whatever X and you can gaina Full Attack that looks along the lines of 8 attacks, all with Crit in the 15-20 range basic, each crit generating an additional attack, each attack hitting a foe adjacent.

[Talderas]

It's also more damage than the longbow. If you get into combat at range, the combination of more damage and longer range increment really pays off. Is a bastard sword enough better than a longsword to justify EWP? Maybe not. But what if the bastard sword also gave you reach?

For one feat I can get one of the following options (when compared against a composite longbow).

+1 average damage, +20ft range increment (Exotic Weapon Proficiency)
+2 damage (Weapon Specialization)
+55ft range increment (Far Shot)

Yes, all three together are the best option but you have a limited number of feats and depending on how your building you may not be able to grab all three.

[Answerer]

For one feat I can get one of the following options (when compared against a composite longbow).

+1 average damage, +20ft range increment (Exotic Weapon Proficiency)
+2 damage (Weapon Specialization)
+55ft range increment (Far Shot)

Yes, all three together are the best option but you have a limited number of feats and depending on how your building you may not be able to grab all three.
Of course, you can do better than any of those by taking a better feat.

[nedz]

Many of the exotic weapons seem to exist so that you have to pay a feat tax for stepping on other people's toes.

Thus Dwarves, Elves and Monks, etc. all get to keep their OP weapons to themselves; and any fanbois have to cough up a feat to play copycat.

The fact that these weapons are less OP than their designer's thought is besides the point.

[Clistenes]

The sickle is a tool and a weapon. Also, the kama is basically a sickle that has "made in Japan" stamped on the handle.

The scythe is primarily a farming tool. While it does have a shape blade, it is poorly shaped and balanced for cutting anything that isn't 3 size classes smaller than the wielder. However... by detaching the blade and reattaching it to a more conventional pole "handle", it makes a convincing pole arm. This weaponised form has at various times been called a war scythe or a fauchard. It looks very different from a conventional scythe, but all the D&D artwork ever drawn only shows the farm tool configuration.

Plus the fauchard is a simple weapon, while the scythe is martial.


I was actually thinking of another, lesser known, fantasy novel. Basically, a bunch of farmers are rebelling against the king, and since they don't have weapons they are trying to use farm-tools instead. A gnome goes through them all, telling them exactly why each one won't work. His conclusion about the scythe is pretty the the same deal, word for word. Something like "its dangerous to everyone around you, friend or foe".

Could you please try to remember the title? I seems interesting.

[Deepbluediver]

Could you please try to remember the title? It seems interesting.

Sure, it was The Legacy of Gird by Elizabeth Moon. I just didn't think it was worthwhile mentioning initially, sorry.

Some backstory, if you are interested.
Elizabeth Moon was/is a sci-fi author, who apparently got fed up with the way people played paladins at fantasy conventions, and decided to write a fantasy novel to show them how to do it right. The result was a trilogy, now usually found in one volume, entitled The Deed of Paksenarrion.
Which happens to be my favorite novel(s) of all time.
And is the reason why I usually defend the paladin fluff/oath in D&D, but fly into an insane rage when ever some one uses it as an excuse to act like a giant [rooster].

I read the book for the first time before I knew all this, or had ever played D&D. The stories are entirely enjoyable without knowing the first thing about D&D, though a D&D fan will see the inspiration and various expy's. (that's expy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy), not XP :smalltongue:)

Anyway, The Legacy of Gird was written afterwards, and is set in the same world, though several centuries earlier. It focuses on the history behind one of the (very) famous names from the first book, though otherwise the characters are different.

Both books are worth reading, IMO. Moon has also started publishing some direct sequels for The Deed, but I haven't read those yet.

[Xenogears]

You're making a disarm check if you're disarming or being disarmed, it's always +4 if you have a 2h (unless the opponent has a disarming weapon of course)

edit: 2h melee of course

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I know that that is how the rules work. I was pointing out that the suggested Houserule you were commenting on was changing that fact so that a 2H weapon gave you a bonus if you were being disarmed but not if you were the one disarming them.

[Deepbluediver]

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I know that that is how the rules work. I was pointing out that the suggested Houserule you were commenting on was changing that fact so that a 2H weapon gave you a bonus if you were being disarmed but not if you were the one disarming them.

Yes, that's it exactly. Sorry I meant to get back to that and reply earlier, but I lost track of things. Thanks.

[Raimun]

Gnomish Quick Razor is amazing if you have Iaijutsu Focus... and aren't a Samurai.

Quick Razors let you draw and retract them before and after every attack.
Basic plan is to get every little trick that lets you make your enemies Flatfooted to your attacks.

I think it's a good thing you can fight pretty well with them. Wristblade was the best thing in Assassins Creed.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

There is no Kaorti-specific EWP. You just need EWP in the weapon type, even if it is not normally exotic. EWP (longsword) is the explicit example. So someone with EWP (spiked chain) could use a Kaorti-resin Spiked Chain without issue. No retraining or additional feats necessary.

Interesting, I just went back and reread the article. Awkward as it is, you are not incorrect. Apparently a process that makes a weapon so different that a dagger requires an EWP separate from EWP longsword allows a spinning sword master to pick it up without missing a beat.

[Greenish]

You have no idea how much I loathe that version of the weapon.

http://museum.hikari.us/weapons/slides/kusarigama1.jpg

Do you seriously think somebody could wield THAT with one hand?Why, you could dual wield a pair. *points at avatar* :smalltongue:

[Talderas]

Of course, you can do better than any of those by taking a better feat.

Of course, and as far as they all go Far Shot is the best from the perspective of options that it opens up. The point is that you compare it against feats that are known to be poor options and EWP is worse than those. That gives you the value of expending a feat for EWP for a composite greatbow over a composite longbow.