How abusable is the Witch from Dungeon Master Guide?

[silverwolfer]

Just curious, on how folks think the Witch may or may not be abuse able

I think this is the spell list if thinking right, think it is worth having a shot at?

0 Level: arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect
magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, read magic, resistance,
virtue.
1st Level: cause fear, change self, charm person, command, comprehend
languages, cure light wounds, doom, endure elements, hypnotism,
identify, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.
2nd Level: alter self, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, cure moderate
wounds, delay poison, detect thoughts, enthrall, invisibility, locate
object, minor image, scare, whispering wind.
3rd Level: bestow curse, clairvoyance/clairaudience, contagion, create
food and water, dispel magic, Leomund’s tiny hut, magic circle against
chaos/law/evil/good*, major image, rage, remove blindness/deafness,
suggestion, tongues.
4th Level: charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies, divination,
fear, giant vermin, good hope, locate creature, minor creation, neutralize
poison, polymorph, remove curse, scrying.
5th Level: baleful polymorph, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater
command, magic jar, major creation, mirage arcana, nightmare, seeming,
sending.
6th Level: animate objects, control weather, eyebite, find the path,
geas/quest, greater scrying, heroes’ feast, legend lore, mass suggestion, mislead,
repulsion, shadow image, Tenser’s transformation, true seeing.
7th Level: creeping doom, finger of death, insanity, liveoak, repel
wood, transport via plants.
8th Level: antipathy, demand, discern location, horrid wilting, polymorph
any object, sympathy, trap the soul.
9th Level: earthquake, foresight, refuge, shapechange, wail of the banshee,
weird.

[nedz]

Well, IIRC Witch is a Sorcerer based class, so you just get to pick your spells known from that list.

Which means that Sorcerer is strictly better — though you do get a few spells which Sorcerers don't normally get to see, though they're not all that impressive.

[RedDragons]

I could see if you have some sort of wierd entry prc that needs a usual divine spells with arcane entry requirements.

[nedz]

Except that Witches cast spells as a Sorcerer, and so they are all Arcane.
That doesn't mean that there isn't an exploit, just not the obvious ones.

[Gotterdammerung]

Unfortunately, the witch is incomplete. Otherwise I think you would see it more often. I think it was intended to be an early introduced beguiler/warmage/dread necro style of caster. The text leads you to believe that a witch would know all those spells on her custom list. If a player brought it to me that is how I would rule it works. But it doesn't actually ever explain the details of the witches casting parameters. It requires a GM to flesh it out, and therefore it is an uncommon resource for RAW builds.

One could argue that she learns spells like a sorcerer, but a close look at the text will show that it never says that. It says she casts spells as a sorcerer, it makes no mention of how she learns spells. The parameters of a casting class at the time of casting a spell, and the parameters of how a spellcasting class obtains spells off of their list are 2 very different and seperate things.

It is a shame too, because it could be a very interesting alternative casting class if the designers had just added a few more paragraphs of text.

Now to answer your question. If you decide it is exactly like a sorcerer then it isn't very exploitable at all. It has all the weaknesses of sorcerer before there influx of sorcerer buffing material. And it's access to odd spells can be replicated by any caster without much effort.

If you decide it works like the kit casters (beguiler/warmage/dread necro), then is will share the same exploit potential as these classes. Bloodline feats to add spells to its list. Frost mage, sand shaper, rainbow servant, all the typical tricks players use to add new spells to their spell list. However, it will be slightly less powerful than these kit casters just based on the fact that it has ZERO class abilities. It doesn't have a given hit dice/bab/saves progression. It currently by RAW has spellcasting as a class ability and then 19 lines of blank. Of course you would assign it a BAB /save/HD/class skills/skillpoints per lvl/ect. probably one matching sorcerer/or another caster. But it wouldn't have any of the unique class abilities that the other kit casters get, which innately sets it far behind.

[nedz]

Well if you read the paragraphs before I think it's pretty clear that it's meant to be a variant spell list for a Sorcerer. It is though just a sketch of how you, as a DM, might create a new base class by modifying an existing class.

[Piggy Knowles]

As others have mentioned, the lack of expansion and support with things like Spell Compendium will hurt it.

Assuming the spells known are like a sorcerer, rather than a beguiler, I would probably end up with something like this for a spell list:

1- Silent Image, Charm Person, Sleep, Cure Light Wounds, Identify, Comprehend Languages
2- Alter Self, Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Calm Emotions
3- Dispel Magic, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience
4- Polymorph, Minor Creation, Fear, Divination
5- Magic Jar, Mirage Arcana, Greater Command, Feeblemind
6- Animate Objects, Find the Path, Mass Suggestion
7- Creeping Doom, Finger of Death, Repel Wood
8- PAO, Horrid Wilting, Discern Location
9- Shapechange, Foresight, Earthquake

...I guess? I haven't really given it much thought. Anyhow, that's not terrible, but there's a few spells (like the Polymorph line) that are really doing the heavy lifting.

[Gotterdammerung]

Well if you read the paragraphs before I think it's pretty clear that it's meant to be a variant spell list for a Sorcerer. It is though just a sketch of how you, as a DM, might create a new base class by modifying an existing class.

All the paragraphs before tell us is that it is a spontaneous caster like the sorcerer and has the same number of castings per day as a sorcerer. The flavor of the text implies that a witch knows how to do all of these things.

If it were clear then we would all agree.

I would strongly advise running it as a kit caster if you allow it in your game. Otherwise it is at such a strong disadvantage to other casters, the player will be at a big disadvantage.

[avr]

PF's witch is pretty obviously based off this. They made a class which was a prepared caster, and decided to add a whole new subsystem (hexes) to support it. I guess they decided the spell list wasn't good enough.

[RedDragons]

I would strongly advise running it as a kit caster if you allow it in your game. Otherwise it is at such a strong disadvantage to other casters, the player will be at a big disadvantage.



what is a kit caster? Like a sorcerer?

[WhatBigTeeth]

Gotterdammerung is arguing that the Witch is supposed to know all the spells on its spell list.

Of course, since the text in question never mentions that, never even references spells known, never references changing class mechanics and comes as an example of a "variant spell list" - not variant spell mechanics, variant class or similar - Gotterdammerung's reading is an enormous stretch that you can safely assume nobody will make at your game table.

Not that it wouldn't be a good idea.

[Gotterdammerung]

Gotterdammerung is arguing that the Witch is supposed to know all the spells on its spell list.

Of course, since the text in question never mentions that, never even references spells known, never references changing class mechanics and comes as an example of a "variant spell list" - not variant spell mechanics, variant class or similar - Gotterdammerung's reading is an enormous stretch that you can safely assume nobody will make at your game table.

Not that it wouldn't be a good idea.

No, Gotterdammerung is saying that it doesn't say anything at all about spells known, one way or the other. The class is severely incomplete.

Gotterdammerung is suggesting that its possible the intention was for a witch to know all spells on her list. Gotterdammering is basing this possibility entirely off of the fluff in the text.

Gotterdammerung is also recommending that if you complete the rest of the witch class by adding all the missing components, then using the beguiler, warmage, dread necro style of caster would be worth looking into.

P.S. a kit caster is a spontaneous caster with a set spell list that usually follows a theme. Examples- Warmage, beguiler, Dread Necromancer.

Homebrew examples-
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13663575&postcount=3

[Alienist]

Gotterdammerung is suggesting that its possible the intention was for a witch to know all spells on her list. Gotterdammering is basing this possibility entirely off of the fluff in the text.


Methinks thou art squeezing an awful lot of custard out of quite a small cat.

[nedz]

Variant Spell Lists
One fairly easy way to modify an existing character class or, in effect, invent an entirely new one is to modify the spell list of the spellcasting class.
...
Example New Spell List: The Witch
...
She casts spells as a sorcerer, ...


I think that it's clear from the text that they are suggesting modifying the Sorcerer class to make a Witch. This is in one of the core books, so the type of spellcasting class you're suggesting didn't exist at that point. Now I think that your idea of modifying Warmage or Beguiler etc. into a Witch using a spell list like this is excellent; but that isn't what they are suggesting nor is it something which they could reasonably even begin to suggest.