First Time Rogue

[Gahish]

My party will be starting a 3.5e campaign soon and it's my first time playing anything other than 4e. I'm also still rather new at DND.

I've opted to play the rogue class to A) try something new and B) fill a role that none of the other players are covering. However, I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to race. Since the standards are already covered (human, elf, gnome, dwarf, and halfling) I'd prefer to do something different.

Are there any +2 dex +2 int LA 0+ non-homebrew races out there that are PC optional? Also, what books (other than the standard Player's Handbook) should I look at for class and race information that will help me play the role better?

Thanks in advance.

[ArcturusV]

Well, Complete Adventurer has things you might want to look at like Skill Tricks. Complete Scoundrel. Cityscape is also golden for you. Otherwise it mostly depends on "What sort of thief are you?". They aren't optimal books, but I love Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness for RPing Fluff. It's weird though, the better PrCs are typically Exalted, the better Spells/Feats are Vile, least how I look at it. Though both tend to fall in as less powerful than other more optimized books/sources.

... I was looking for that exact same magical +2 Dex, +2 Int (With no Cha penalty) race just yesterday. As far as I know it doesn't exist at LA 0.

Snow Elves give you +2 Dex, and -2 Charisma. Unless you want to play a "Face" rogue that might be a good choice for an "unusual" race. Vanara are nice with a bonus to Dex and Wis, with a penalty to Str.

[Tsriel]

Not +2 to both dex and int, no. Being as how you're used to 4e, you won't find any race in 3.5 that gives multiple bonuses to stats without some sort of drawback, usually in the form of a level adjustment.

I wouldn't worry so much about trying something "new" as you're basically doing so already. No, seriously, 3.5 operates quite differently mechanically speaking from 4e. My advice, stick to the core stuff, get to know that first, and branch out from there.

[Srasy]

The beguiler race from SS would do it but if that doesn't fly try whisper gnome or strong heart halfling

[rockdeworld]

Gray Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) and Fire Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) are such races, provided you don't mind being a different type of elf.

While not an official book, I recommend reading the Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350). It'll get you started better than any advice I can give.

[Gahish]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. I'm going to look into the info you've given me.

[Greenish]

Lesser tiefling is +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, with the favoured class rogue (if you care). Tiefling is from MM, the rules for lesser planetouched from PGtF (if my memory serves).

[Edit]:
Being as how you're used to 4e, you won't find any race in 3.5 that gives multiple bonuses to stats without some sort of drawback, usually in the form of a level adjustment.O ye of little faith.

[Curmudgeon]

Gray Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) and Fire Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) are such races, provided you don't mind being a different type of elf.
There's also the Silvanesti Elf in Dragonlance Campaign Setting on page 20. (While other Dragonlance books aren't compatible with D&D, this one is; it's published by Wizards of the Coast.) The Silvanesti Elf has the same ability adjustments as the Fire Elf, but also has darkvision.

[Tsriel]

O ye of little faith.

:amused:

I still stand by my statement.

[Daftendirekt]

Not +2 to both dex and int, no.
Ahem...10charlol

Gray Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) and Fire Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) are such races, provided you don't mind being a different type of elf.

[Seharvepernfan]

Also, what books (other than the standard Player's Handbook) should I look at for class and race information that will help me play the role better?

Thanks in advance.

Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel, Races of the Wild ~ probably the most relevant.


I was going to point out that nobody in your party is playing a half-orc, but without houserules, they suck as rogues.

[Gwendol]

Some random rogue tips:

Going first is your friend. It means everyone else is flatfooted, which will make your sneak attacks work. Also, you want the penetrating strike ACF (found in dungeonscape), to deal half SA damage to normally immune creatures.

You will likely be the squishiest member of the party. Being able to hide means you can't be targeted and may be able to land a sneak attack. A level of shadowdancer can help you with that. (There are other ways too).

Flanking is a very reliable way for triggering SA, so be sure to keep tumble high. To maximize the use of SA, two weapon fighting is often recommended. It can work, but be sure to drop your targets as you can only take a few hits yourself (if you are able to hide however...).

[Seharvepernfan]

Yeah, and don't forget; you can use throwing weapons and hand-crossbows with two-weapon fighting.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, what books (other than the standard Player's Handbook) should I look at for class and race information that will help me play the role better?
There are lots of races to choose among, and lots of books for those races. For a useful summary, look here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_20?num=10&pg=1). As for books, it's not generally the race and class information you need to pay attention to, but mostly the feats. Feats are the most precious resource for the Rogue class, since the class is greatly dependent on them and doesn't get any bonus feats.

Unearthed Arcana or online here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for rules about character flaws to get two more feats
Champions of Ruin, for the Craven feat (page 17)
Eberron Campaign Setting, for the Education feat (page 52)
Complete Champion, for the Knowledge Devotion feat (page 60)
Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, for the Dark Creature template (page 152) only if your campaign is in Forgotten Realms
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, for the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (ACF) (page 208)
Dragon Magic, for the Uncanny Bravery ACF (page 14)
Lords of Madness, for the Darkstalker feat (page 179)
Complete Scoundrel, for the skill tricks (pages 82-90) and Savvy Rogue feat (pages 80-81)
Dungeon Master's Guide or online here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) for the Shadowdancer prestige class
Magic Item Compendium for a bunch of useful tools, including the Mobility armor enhancement (page 13); this will help you get into Shadowdancer PrC

[sdhartm]

If you are looking to go straight Rogue because you are new to DnD, then you can count on not being involved in/great at combat in general. Look at Halfling for that plus to Dex. Dexterity and Intelligence are just about your two most important stats. Are you playing a trapmonkey, or a scout build?

[Morphie]

Go with Whisper Gnome, it's the perfect race to play a rogue.

[Daftendirekt]

Go with Whisper Gnome, it's the perfect race to play a rogue.

+1.

It really is.

[Curmudgeon]

Go with Whisper Gnome, it's the perfect race to play a rogue.
It's not perfect by any means. A racial penalty to Strength and smaller size means the Whisper Gnome's carrying capacity really sucks. As someone who uses the Swiss Army Knife approach to adventuring — a tool for every job — I find it frustrating not being able to carry everything I need. Just loading up on masterwork tools for all the skill jobs that need doing can be painful. Unlike the case with armor and weapons (plus a couple of kits and musical instruments), tools don't get lighter just because you're smaller. I hate being encumbered automatically, reduced to just 20' speed, simply because I picked up a random piece of treasure. 19.5 lbs. (STR 8, size Small) is way too low for an average Rogue's gear, so you constantly get into Medium encumbrance.

[Daftendirekt]

It's not perfect by any means. A racial penalty to Strength and smaller size means the Whisper Gnome's carrying capacity really sucks. As someone who uses the Swiss Army Knife approach to adventuring — a tool for every job — I find it frustrating not being able to carry everything I need. Just loading up on masterwork tools for all the skill jobs that need doing can be painful. Unlike the case with armor and weapons (plus a couple of kits and musical instruments), tools don't get lighter just because you're smaller. I hate being encumbered automatically, reduced to just 20' speed, simply because I picked up a random piece of treasure. 19.5 lbs. (STR 8, size Small) is way too low for an average Rogue's gear, so you constantly get into Medium encumbrance.

Dude....handy haversack. You can afford it by level 3, if you follow WBL. Yes, rogues can carry lots of nifty little things, but most of them are pretty light. Also, -2 Str doesn't bar you from still having decent Str, it just makes it a little harder.

Their Dex bonus, their racial bonuses to Hide/Move Silently on top of the size modifier, bonuses to Spot and Listen, the Silence SLA...this race was crafted to be the perfect rogue.

[Curmudgeon]

Dude....handy haversack. You can afford it by level 3, if you follow WBL.
A Heward's Handy Haversack is part of my standard equipment list, but that by itself reduces the light load maximum down to just 14.5 lbs. if you're starting at STR 10 before racial modifications. And you can't get any benefit from tools or other items while they're stowed in the HHH; those you need to carry out in the open. Magic items like the Heward's Handy Haversack don't get lighter if you're Small size, either. :smallmad:

[Fates]

A few other tips:

1. Any self-respecting rogue in 3.5 takes the Craven (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/craven--484/) feat. (A bit of an oxymoron there)

2. Try and find ways to get your enemies flat-footed. One of my favourite tricks, which is easy to use at first level and actually continues to be a viable option later on, is to have your party wizard/sorcerer/bard use the Grease spell (or to get a wand of it). This spell is, to say the least, the shiz-dit, especially if you've got a party rogue. Here is the reason it's good for you.

From the d20 SRD:

"A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). "

"Being Attacked while Balancing

You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing."


So anyone caught on the grease spell without at least five ranks in balance (and, fun fact, nothing has ranks in balance) is automatically flat-footed against all of your attacks. If you are a ranged rogue (or even a melee rogue), find some way to get this spell. It's saved my life countless times at early levels, and is all around one of my favourite spells.

3. If you're caught in a situation where you're forced to fight people while they can see you, Telling Blow (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/telling-blow--2895/) is a good feat to have.

4. If you're going with a ranged rogue, consider using a crossbow and taking this (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/crossbow-sniper--488/) feat.

[Curmudgeon]

So anyone caught on the grease spell without at least five ranks in balance (and, fun fact, nothing has ranks in balance) is automatically flat-footed against all of your attacks.
That's not even true assuming all your enemies are straight out of the Monster Manuals. The challenging enemies all have class levels and actual skills, like the Dark Sniper (Monster Manual IV, page 56): a straight Drow Scout 6, with Balance maxed out.

[Fates]

That's not even true assuming all your enemies are straight out of the Monster Manuals. The challenging enemies all have class levels and actual skills, like the Dark Sniper (Monster Manual IV, page 56): a straight Drow Scout 6, with Balance maxed out.

Please, forgive my hyperbole. The vast majority of enemies that an adventuring group is going to fight, however, do not have any ranks in balance, and very few have five or more.

And even enemies with class levels (which are by no means the only challenging enemies, just usually the most versatile) will almost never have ranks in balance. The only common exceptions are rogues, monks, and scouts.