Half-Dragon Dilemma

[PhDo]

Hello, I've run into a problem. I'm a relatively experienced DM, but this is my first time DMing a campaign where they are allowed to play monster races. One of the people in my group is planning on playing a half-dragon barbarian, but when he was looking at the Monster Manuel and saw that the example Half-Dragon Fighter (half human) had 6 feats. That would mean that he got all of the abilities of the fighter.

I'm not sure if there is something im missing about the half-dragon, but it didnt say they got extra feats or anything.

We are starting level 3 so thats only enough to get to lv 3 Half dragon so will he get all the lv 4 Barbarian stuff when he hits lv 4?

[vasharanpaladin]

No. You use the template, not the sample character. Pick race, apply template, gain class levels.

And, for your edification, a half-dragon character has a level adjustment of +3, so he would start at 4th level (1 class level +3 LA).

[nedz]

The sample Half Dragon in the MM is also a 4th level fighter.
(With LA +3 that's an ECL of 7)
So the sample should have 3 Fighter feats (1st, 2nd and 4th), and 2 Level feats (1st + 3rd). It's also a Half Dragon Human, which explains the final feat.

[PhDo]

Thank you very much, I see what i was doing wrong. You guys are awesome. Also, we are 3rd level total, so right now he is only a 3rd level half-dragon, nothing else, so ya.We also have a were tiger with no class levels and an Aasimir (or however you spell it) Knight.

[Matticussama]

Unless you're making a special exception for the character, a 3rd level character cannot be a half-dragon. Since it is an LA+3 race, you need to be minimum 4th level to play one; 3LA + 1 class level.

Now, it probably isn't a huge deal if you let the player play from 3rd level as an ECL 4th level character; the power from half-dragon, while strong, isn't overwhelming compared to its LA cost. However, make sure that the player doesn't level up again too soon compared to the rest of the party (since he is actually starting out stronger than them if you do this).

[Marnath]

Thank you very much, I see what i was doing wrong. You guys are awesome. Also, we are 3rd level total, so right now he is only a 3rd level half-dragon, nothing else, so ya.We also have a were tiger with no class levels and an Aasimir (or however you spell it) Knight.

You should probably read Urpriest's guide to monsters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928)

[Greenish]

Thank you very much, I see what i was doing wrong. You guys are awesome. Also, we are 3rd level total, so right now he is only a 3rd level half-dragon, nothing else, so ya.We also have a were tiger with no class levels and an Aasimir (or however you spell it) Knight.You can't be a weretiger or a half-dragon without a class (or base race with RHD), and a weretiger is at the minimum a 10th level character, and you should probably know the rules for LA and RHD before allowing monster characters (even if you want to modify said rules).

[PhDo]

You can't be a weretiger or a half-dragon without a class (or base race with RHD), and a weretiger is at the minimum a 10th level character, and you should probably know the rules for LA and RHD before allowing monster characters (even if you want to modify said rules).

The were tiger is +3, the Weretiger Lord is +9 i think, dont worry i was looking at that. And also what im doing is that we have prechosen what their base classes will be for the purposes of HD and skills if need be, so thats not really an issue, but thank you for your concern.

[Greenish]

The were tiger is +3+3 LA, and 6 RHD, adding up to +9 ECL.


And also what im doing is that we have prechosen what their base classes will be for the purposes of HD and skills if need be, so thats not really an issue, but thank you for your concern.What does that even mean?

[Zman]

I think you need to learn how LA, RHD, and ECL work. An "Experienced GM" would.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, um. You are breaking the rules of the game by allowing a level 4 character in a level 3 party at all... Agreed on you need to know what the rules actually say about this sort of thing...

[Vaz]

Relatively*

As in compared to other people; assumingly the people he plays with. Who are otherwise new to the game.

[Darius Kane]

Yea, um. You are breaking the rules of the game by allowing a level 4 character in a level 3 party at all...
What rules would that be?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I assume he means the you need a hit die of some kind rule, which may or may not be intact here. I am not sure.

[Gavinfoxx]

"Okay, you all are playing a level 3 game."

"Can I play a half dragon?"

"Sure."

<DM Doesn't understand that he has a level 4 character in a level 3 game, and that a level 4 character shouldn't be in a level 3 game at all.>

[ZamielVanWeber]

The character goes into experience hoc for what is overall a sub par character because of how much you lose to +3. That alone would look more like generosity than anything else.

[Darius Kane]

"Okay, you all are playing a level 3 game."

"Can I play a half dragon?"

"Sure."

<DM Doesn't understand that he has a level 4 character in a level 3 game, and that a level 4 character shouldn't be in a level 3 game at all.>
Losing a level due to dieing and getting resurrected is a thing.
Having a lower or higher level than the rest of the group due to gaining individual bonus XP or losing XP (crafting, spells) is a thing.
Encounter Levels being based on average party level is a thing.
Gaining a template with LA in the middle of the game is a thing.
LA buy-off is a thing (if I remember and understand LA buy-off correctly you are lower level than other PCs at least for a while).
No rules are being broken, because there is no rule that all PCs have to be of equal level all the time.

[Gavinfoxx]

Except, you know... if the GM thinks they are the same level and they aren't and intends for them to be the same level!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Which would make it not that the DM is breaking a rule, but that he made a mistake.

[Darius Kane]

Except, you know... if the GM thinks they are the same level and they aren't and intends for them to be the same level!
Except... he doesn't? :smallconfused: And it's still not breaking any rules.

[Gavinfoxx]

Argh, y'all are too pedantic for me tonight...

[ZamielVanWeber]

It is not so much pedantic as noting the difference between the implied player/DM contract (where everyone has a chance to be at an equal level) and actual game rules. The mechanical difference is huge.

[Darius Kane]

Argh, y'all are too pedantic for me tonight...
There's nothing pedantic about pointing out that someone is wrong.

[Alienist]

Argh, y'all are too pedantic for me tonight...

Methinks thou art in the wrong part of the internet then ... :smalltongue:

[Alienist]

Dear original poster.
What Level Adjustment (LA) means is that because the template is powerful, to compensate the character must start out behind.

For instance, 4 levels of Barbarian plus a +2LA template is 'worth' a 6th level character.

LA do not grant hit dice or levels. So the above is not a level 4 barb + level 2 whatever.

In your example if the player was playing in a 4th level campaign, and he took half dragon as a template, he would only have a single level of barbarian. He would only have a single d12 for hit points.

When he gets his first level of barbarian he would have this:

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fast movement, illiteracy, rage 1/day

NOT THIS

4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Rage 2/day

Effectively, because his template is so powerful, he is three levels 'behind' to compensate.

So what everyone has their noses out of joint about is that if a third level character took the Half Dragon template, he would have no hit dice, and thus no hit points!

Now the other half of the trick is that when he comes to divvy up XP and level up, you add those LAs back on. So he counts as a fourth level character for getting xp. And instead of it taking ~1000xp for him to get his second level of barbarian, it takes ~5000xp.

Personally I don't have a problem with him starting a Barb 1 Half Dragon in a third level campaign, just don't baby him because of his low hp. That's the risk he takes.

Additionally however, unless you normally reward xp for exemplary roleplaying, you shouldn't give him any quest/obstacles overcome xp until the rest of the party hits level 4.