Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLIII

[Kuulvheysoon]

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLIII. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, March 16th, 2012 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, March 30th, 2013 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, April 6th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Complete Warrior's Bladesinger!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)

[Kuulvheysoon]

FAQ:[/SIZE]
Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

How does the Song of Celerity class feature work? For the purposes of this Challenge, it worksexactly as it is written. Therefore, it allows spontaneous spellcasters (such as Sorcerers or Bards) to quicken a spell once per day.

[123456789blaaa]

So what made you decide to choose this SI?

Also:



<snip>
while Amphetryon is chairman.
<snip>

You may want to fix this.

[rockdeworld]

Woohoo! The new contest is up! Funnily when I typed Bladesinger into my search bar, this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Bladesinger_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)) was the first thing to come up. I vote it for the Zinc Saucer prize :smalltongue:

This PrC looks interesting, so I'll try to make an entry.

[Venger]

oh god, this class.

I'm in to cook, although as far as what I'm going to cook, your guess is as good as mine right now.

[Amphetryon]

Sure, what the heck. I'll compete. All you folks hoping for Bronze, tremble. :smalltongue:

[Venger]

Sure, what the heck. I'll compete. All you folks hoping for Bronze, tremble. :smalltongue:

it'll be good to see you cook again. I have an inkling of what you'll bring to the table. best of luck with it

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm... Oddly enough, I was just messing around with a half-elf build, but I don't think that Bladesinger would be a good fit. I'll have to think a bit before I decide if I'm entering or not.

Anyhow, even if I don't enter, I'll definitely at least judge.

[Kuulvheysoon]

So what made you decide to choose this SI?

Well, partly it was because of the half casting. But a much bigger motivation was the fact that it's a full BAB class that forces you to einhander if you want a good UoSI score (as most of it's class features require you to wield a longsword/rapier in one hand).

So no Two Handed Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting or even Sword and Board.

[Venger]

hey chairman, I've got a question:

bladesinger's "song of celerity ability allows us to:


Once per day, a bladesinger of 4th
level or higher may quicken a single spell of up to 2nd level, as
if she had used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment
to the spell’s effective level or casting time. She may
only use this ability when wielding a longsword or rapier in
one hand (and nothing in the other). At 8th level and higher,
she can quicken a single
spell of up to 4th level.

so we can quicken a spell. without adjusting its casting time?

initially, the fix for this seems simple (they are referring to spontaneous casters, who normally have metamagic feats applied as a full-round without rapid metamagic) but spontaneous casters can't cast quickened spells (without rapid metamagic)

does the SI allow a spontaneous caster without rapid metamagic to quicken spells?

[Sheogoroth]

Is there anywhere I can find the builds for Iron Chef optimizations of the past?
The threads never have them, merely the winners...

[Venger]

Is there anywhere I can find the builds for Iron Chef optimizations of the past?
The threads never have them, merely the winners...

if you click the posts in the OP, it'll take you to all our old contests. wade through the pages and you'll be able to see everyone's tasty dishes: winners and the rest of us too

[Kazyan]

Wow.

This ingredient is horrifyingly bad.

I'll see what I can do...

[Soranar]

Godawful requirements, subpar class features and a capstone ability that's utterly meaningless at the level you get it.

Oh god but I love a challenge.

[Kuulvheysoon]

hey chairman, I've got a question:

bladesinger's "song of celerity ability allows us to:

-snip-

Updated in the FAQ post.


Wow.

This ingredient is horrifyingly bad.

I'll see what I can do...


Godawful requirements, subpar class features and a capstone ability that's utterly meaningless at the level you get it.

Oh god but I love a challenge.

You're most certainly welcome. Fun fact - this is the less horrifying bad of my two final choices. :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment
to the spell’s effective level or casting time

WHAT THE F#?

Aww hell naw. I'm in.

[Venger]

Updated in the FAQ post.
thanks.



Fun fact - this is the less horrifying bad of my two final choices. :smalltongue:

holy hell! what was the other one? can't hurt to say, we're all too busy bookdiving for bladesinger

[Kuulvheysoon]

WHAT THE F#?

Aww hell naw. I'm in.

Please note -


Once per day, a bladesinger of 4th level or higher may quicken a single spell of up to 2nd level, as if she had used the Quicken Spell feat, but without any adjustment to the spell’s effective level or casting time. She may only use this ability when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other). At 8th level and higher, she can quicken a single spell of up to 4th level.


Benefit

Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.


holy hell! what was the other one? can't hurt to say, we're all too busy bookdiving for bladesinger

Now, why would I tell you that? I need to save something for my final ICO, don't I?

[Kazyan]

I'm serious, this is catastro-terrible. Not even I have standards this low. :smallfrown:

[Piggy Knowles]

You know, I just had a build idea. It's.... interesting, to say the least. Rough sketches of the build seem to indicate that it would work. Let's see if this horse can fly...

[Vaz]

Please note -

What I'm not understanding is that it changes the Casting time to a Swift Action. Problem is the rest of the text states that it does not change the casting time. I can understand the intention, but it doesn't seem to make sense. If you take it as only to mean "quickens spells for free, even those of spontaneous casters", cool. But as it stands, it's a complete non-ability.

[Venger]

Now, why would I tell you that? I need to save something for my final ICO, don't I?

can't blame a chef for trying :smalltongue:


What I'm not understanding is that it changes the Casting time to a Swift Action. Problem is the rest of the text states that it does not change the casting time. I can understand the intention, but it doesn't seem to make sense. If you take it as only to mean "quickens spells for free, even those of spontaneous casters", cool. But as it stands, it's a complete non-ability.

what he said in the FAQ in the second post is that specific trumps general comes in and it works as written. it says it allows spontaneous casters to use quicken normally, so that's what it does.

[rockdeworld]

What I'm not understanding is that it changes the Casting time to a Swift Action. Problem is the rest of the text states that it does not change the casting time. I can understand the intention, but it doesn't seem to make sense. If you take it as only to mean "quickens spells for free, even those of spontaneous casters", cool. But as it stands, it's a complete non-ability.
Now that I've read through it, I realize that you're right. Presumably it's meant to mean "without any adjustment to the spell’s effective level or extending it's casting time if cast by a spontaneous caster."

My entry is nearly complete, and I rather like it :smallsmile:

Just got to format and submit, so don't expect it before Tuesday :smallamused:

[Amphetryon]

Now that I've read through it, I realize that you're right. Presumably it's meant to mean "without any adjustment to the spell’s effective level or extending it's casting time if cast by a spontaneous caster."

My entry is nearly complete, and I rather like it :smallsmile:

Just got to format and submit, so don't expect it before Tuesday :smallamused:

Mine just needs to be put into the table and given its proper backstory.

[Gotterdammerung]

A cool class. Not sure if I will compete or not. Caster SI's take so much extra work =)

I will let my brain stew a bit and see if anything noteworthy schlarfs out.

P.S. Can I assume that, like other rounds that have a SI with racial requirements, race won't be a negative factor for originality?

[8wGremlin]

third times a charm?

[Vaz]

what he said in the FAQ in the second post is that specific trumps general comes in and it works as written. it says it allows spontaneous casters to use quicken normally, so that's what it does.

It doesn't; it says something, then in the very next line, it contradicts itself.

It states "it quickens the spell... without changing the casting time"

Quicken changes casting time to free action. I get entirely what it is trying to do, but by RAW, the feature has no effect. It's like saying "it extends the spell... without changing the duration". What it is trying to say is that it applies the metamagic without applying the increased casting time usual to a spontaneous caster, but it doesn't it states that it changes the casting but doesn't change the casting time.

[Venger]

It doesn't; it says something, then in the very next line, it contradicts itself.

It states "it quickens the spell... without changing the casting time"

Quicken changes casting time to free action. I get entirely what it is trying to do, but by RAW, the feature has no effect. It's like saying "it extends the spell... without changing the duration". What it is trying to say is that it applies the metamagic without applying the increased casting time usual to a spontaneous caster, but it doesn't it states that it changes the casting but doesn't change the casting time.

yes, that is what the book says, but the chairman's ruled that if you are a spontaneous caster, then you don't extend the spell to a full round as normal, but instead cast it as a swift action as per normal (quickened spells are no longer free actions, but swift actions)

[Vaz]

Oh.

I feel slow now. But that did make me giggle when I read it in the book.

[sabelo2000]

Wow, that's a lot of restrictions. Elf-only class, and specifically limited to Longsword or Rapier for its class features. This will be one heck of a challenge for my sophomore effort, to try and come up with something uniue...

[Sgt. Cookie]

Wow. I echo what has already been said. This PrC is terrible.

But, I have ideas.

[Amphetryon]

Wow. I echo what has already been said. This PrC is terrible.

But, I have ideas.

Hey, at least it lets you cast in armor. . . at 6th level. :smalleek:

[Vaz]

That doesn't do it justice, Amph. Without Bonus Feats, that means ECL15.

Have fun with that one!

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm not having trouble with the class from a mechanics standpoint. It really isn't that bad. I am having trouble with its generic nature. I mean a melee/mage elven hybrid is like one of the most vanilla straight out of the box D&D staples. If I stay true to the fluff and intention of the SI... then I end up with a bland meal. Real tricky round. I really hope someone figures out how to lay some voodoo down on this bland birdy.

[rockdeworld]

Naturally enough I realize my first entry has banned sources :smallsigh:

I reworked it, but it seems rather vanilla. I'll see if I can spruce it up a bit.

[FyreByrd]

It's about time I did another one of these...so throwing my hat into the ring...

...I've got an idea, but will need to play around with it a little more before I'm certain it's going to work

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh. This one.

You know... I think I could cheese something out here... but I'm not sure it would fly, and I'm fairly certain the judges would start throwing books at me for doing it. Also, I can see some synergy, but I can't see a build with this in it without asking the question 'why did you nerf yourself by taking the SI?'.

[123456789blaaa]

Oh. This one.

You know... I think I could cheese something out here... but I'm not sure it would fly, and I'm fairly certain the judges would start throwing books at me for doing it. Also, I can see some synergy, but I can't see a build with this in it without asking the question 'why did you nerf yourself by taking the SI?'.

Off topic post: Shneeky I posted a fairly long post in the Reanimated DN handbook thread. I pmed you about it but you seem to have not gotten it. You may want to check the post out.

[Venger]

That doesn't do it justice, Amph. Without Bonus Feats, that means ECL15.

Have fun with that one!

even with bonus feats, the SI has a hard limit at BA 5. so at the very earliest, you're gaining the ability to cast in light at lvl 11.

you spoil us with this ingredient, chairman

[Vaz]

Ooooh. Got one build in mind. Not sure it was meant to do it, and potentially wooly wording, but those caster levels are coming in useful.

[sabelo2000]

Arrgh this is frustrating! Full BAB but only partial casting, and I've never had motivation to build a gish before. Dangit, I... WILL... do this!

[8wGremlin]

Actually... you know what, I'm not going to enter this one.

Bladesinger, I'm just not that in to you....

see you all on the next one XLIV...

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have an idea; butI am not sure if I can actually do :smallsight: why did it have to have so many sucky pre-reqs.

[Gotterdammerung]

Ok, I got my idea. I don't think I will come up with a second idea this round, though. Just have to research a pile of fluff. Elves are totally not my thing, so I am real unfamiliar with some of their more obscure fluff.

[The Viscount]

Actually... you know what, I'm not going to enter this one.

Bladesinger, I'm just not that in to you....

see you all on the next one XLIV...

No shame in that. I'm pulling a blank on this one. Honestly, I can do an Zinc Saucier for this thing far easier than I could ever do an Iron Chef. All the class features can be replicated.

[Ifni]

Yeah, the later gish classes/PrCs take pretty much everything Bladesinger did and add more.

I have a build that works, I think, and it's probably what I'd recommend to someone who really wanted to use this PrC. It's decently powerful, although of course you can do better replacing some SI levels with other better PrCs. I suspect it'd get dinged heavily on originality, though, it's a pretty obvious build. And the table is intimidating, so... we'll see how motivated I'm feeling.

[Vaz]

Redacted by order the Emperors' most hold Ordo's

[Venger]

vaz, you may wish to edit your post for anonymity, and instead ask the chairman your question, so others don't know that your dish is the one using that particular strategy

[IamL]

I'll be cooking for the first time.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'll be cooking for the first time.

We'll be glad to have you - everyone's welcome. And good luck.

[FyreByrd]

OK I've now gone through 4 concepts (3 bland, 1 illegal) why do I care so much about this PrC, what's wrong with me!

I'm now on concept number five which involves me finding every copy of complete warrior published in the world, and subtly editing it, mainly by crossing out those prereqs!

[rockdeworld]

Good luck, FyreByrd. You have all of our support :smallamused:

Whew, finished and submitted. I'm so happy to be done with that. I considered making a second one but I just feel tired :smallsigh:

[Grynning]

Wow you guys still do these! Hi Amphetytron!
It's been over a year since I posted here but I was kinda surprised to see Bladesinger hadn't been done yet. It's a 10-level bad PrC, it's perfect for IC. Good luck all.

[Amphetryon]

Wow you guys still do these! Hi Amphetytron!
It's been over a year since I posted here but I was kinda surprised to see Bladesinger hadn't been done yet. It's a 10-level bad PrC, it's perfect for IC. Good luck all.

*waves* I can stop Iron Chef anytime I want. . .

*twitch*

Okay, that's enough stopping for now.

[Fearan]

Ok, here's a question. The SI requires that the character has to wield a longsword/rapier in one hand and nothing in other. Now let's assume the chartacter for some reasons has more then two hands - how the restricitons will work now?

[Vaz]

I've taken it to assume that as long as it's got at least one hand free and one hand on the Longsword or Rapier, it's still eligible to work. The usage of "the" means as such, but I don't think that writers had certain abilities in mind when they created the class.

Or a Certain book, either.

Edit; I know it's early but just been flicking through some splats for "alternate" entries; and I found a few I'd like for the next challenge; Knight of the Iron Glacier, aforementioned Slime Lord, Ashworm Dragoon, Thief of Life and perhaps the Fiends from Fiendish Codex.

[OMG PONIES]

Hmm, I've found a most interesting concept. Now if only I can answer the question, "why Bladesinger?" without stomping my foot and pouting, "because I have to!"


*waves* I can stop Iron Chef anytime I want. . .

*twitch*

Okay, that's enough stopping for now.

It's okay, man *twitch*. I feel your *twitch* pain. My name is Ponies, and I'm an Iron Chefaholic. Admitting is the first step to recovery, right? :smallfrown: Right? :smalleek: Right?! :eek:


Ok, here's a question. The SI requires that the character has to wield a longsword/rapier in one hand and nothing in other. Now let's assume the chartacter for some reasons has more then two hands - how the restricitons will work now?

An interesting query, to be sure. I'd like Herr Chairman's perspective, please.

[MidgetMarine]

You know what?

I'm actually going to try.

I'm going to fail in a flailing mass of death.
But I shall try, so help me god.

[Gotterdammerung]

You know what?

I'm actually going to try.

I'm going to fail in a flailing mass of death.
But I shall try, so help me god.

"Do or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda


"“The man who thinks he can and the man who thinks he can't are both right."
- Henry Ford

[Amphetryon]

"Do or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda


"“The man who thinks he can and the man who thinks he can't are both right."
- Henry Ford

So, all those times I thought I could win this contest, and didn't? :smallconfused:

[Vaz]

"There are two kinds of fools in this world. Those who look where they are shooting, and those who don't."
- Battleship

No, I have no idea why it was relevant either, but I'm currently throwing crisps at the screen booing at what a terrible movie it is and feel I should share it with you.

[rockdeworld]

So, all those times I thought I could win this contest, and didn't? :smallconfused:
Well, you have won the contest :smalltongue: (It might be a stretch to say Henry Ford was always right)

By the way, I checked back and saw the reason we use our current entry format is because Vorpal Tribble suggested a format and Prinny picked this one. What is the consensus on using character sheets instead, like on mythweavers? I ask because it seems like it would be just as easy for the judges to read, and much easier for us contestants to fill out.

[Vaz]

No.

This is my third, and I've grown used to it, and have grown steadily quicker at it. It's clear, concise, and barring basic slip-ups in editing, it's easy enough to use and read, allowing a snap shot that's easy to read for a certain level and comparisons.

[Amphetryon]

Well, you have won the contest :smalltongue: (It might be a stretch to say Henry Ford was always right)

By the way, I checked back and saw the reason we use our current entry format is because Vorpal Tribble suggested a format and Prinny picked this one. What is the consensus on using character sheets instead, like on mythweavers? I ask because it seems like it would be just as easy for the judges to read, and much easier for us contestants to fill out.

Harder on anonymity for those folks who use the same screenname here and on their favorite sheet hosting site.

[MidgetMarine]

EDIT: What used to be here was me being new to all of this. :P

No more.

[Amphetryon]

MidgetMarine? Anonymity: It's a good thing.

[MidgetMarine]

Oh, I'm not commited to anything yet.

In fact I've found a much more appealing alternative.
But yes, Anonymity Ho.

:P

[Gotterdammerung]

EDIT: What used to be here was me being new to all of this. :P

No more.

Don't worry.... nobody saw it.

Nobody here but us chickens.

[MidgetMarine]

Got an idea down.
Starting planning it out.
Then realized I had misread something.

And had to throw the entire thing out the window.
...

This bodes well for my entry....:P

[Vaz]

Typical IC entry, that.

[Kazyan]

Typical IC entry, that.

I'm running into more of a "everything interesting makes the prereqs scream at me" than a misreading. :smallannoyed:

[sabelo2000]

My problem today is that every build I can conceive just screams, "I'm a vanilla cookie!" and then jumps into an oven to die.

And interesting builds I've conceived turn out to be impossible due to the dang prereqs, or killed by LA's.

Grr! GRRRRrr!

[FyreByrd]

Got an idea down.
Starting planning it out.
Then realized I had misread something.

And had to throw the entire thing out the window.
...

This bodes well for my entry....:P

Yes


Typical IC entry, that.

Yes


I'm running into more of a "everything interesting makes the prereqs scream at me" than a misreading. :smallannoyed:

Yes


My problem today is that every build I can conceive just screams, "I'm a vanilla cookie!" and then jumps into an oven to die.

And interesting builds I've conceived turn out to be impossible due to the dang prereqs, or killed by LA's.

Grr! GRRRRrr!

Arrghhhh YES YES YES!

Tell me again why only having one level in the secret ingredient is frowned on...because I have this wonderful build that's amazing up to level 19, then I could just stick bladesinger 1 on the the end..that'd be cool right...right.

:weeps:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Every time I come up with an interesting build, it gives me the puppy-dog eyes and asks me why I horribly nerfed it by using the SI. When continuing with the base ingredients is mechanically stronger than using the SI, I have a hard time justifying it. So I've started a build using [REDACTED] with a dip in [REDACTED]. Hopefully then I won't feel so awful inflicting the SI on it.

[rockdeworld]

So I've started a build using [REDACTED] with a dip in [REDACTED]. Hopefully then I won't feel so awful inflicting the SI on it.
Funny, that's how I started out the Shadowblade ICOC. The difference being that, IMO, Shadowblade is an awesome PrC.

[Amechra]

I actually found a trick that has brilliant synergy with our friend the Bladesinger.

I may have to participate for the first time in a while, huh?

(Why, oh why, does this PrC have to be race specific? I wanted to Beholder Mage it up, just for giggles, but nope, gotta be an elf...)

[rockdeworld]

(Why, oh why, does this PrC have to be race specific? I wanted to Beholder Mage it up, just for giggles, but nope, gotta be an elf...)
As with most racial prerequisites, that sounds like a problem that could be resolved with sufficient application of Polymorph Any Object :smallbiggrin:

[Gotterdammerung]

I actually found a trick that has brilliant synergy with our friend the Bladesinger.

I may have to participate for the first time in a while, huh?

(Why, oh why, does this PrC have to be race specific? I wanted to Beholder Mage it up, just for giggles, but nope, gotta be an elf...)


What did you do for the last round? I remember you saying "My brain has conceived a thing of utmost beauty. This is going to be badass." but I don't remember what you did.

[Amechra]

I ended up not being able to submit it.

I'd have to look up what I did, but I do remember that it essentially boiled down to "I'm playing a VoP Ghostwalk Ghost. No one can judge me!"

[OMG PONIES]

It may be worth reviewing our current entry format, but I for one like it. As a contestant it's a pain, but it allows me to see how my build progresses level by level and identify any weak points. As a judge, I like being able to see everything level by level for ease of verification--I'd rather see a chart showing which feat was taken when rather than decipher it from a list of feats.

[Vaz]

I ended up not being able to submit it.

I'd have to look up what I did, but I do remember that it essentially boiled down to "I'm playing a VoP Ghostwalk Ghost. No one can judge me!"

God? Not even then.

Got a second build in the pot. Hot damn, these prerequisites are annoying. And the abilities? Oh, they're useless, useless! I hatelove it.

[Venger]

It may be worth reviewing our current entry format, but I for one like it. As a contestant it's a pain, but it allows me to see how my build progresses level by level and identify any weak points. As a judge, I like being able to see everything level by level for ease of verification--I'd rather see a chart showing which feat was taken when rather than decipher it from a list of feats.

I also like it. looking back at very old ICs, the nonstandardized entries are hard to read.

[123456789blaaa]

I also like it. looking back at very old ICs, the nonstandardized entries are hard to read.

I like it too. I find it much easier and more fun to read than the character sheets.

[OMG PONIES]

I think Grynning's original question has merit; though we all agree that a standardized format is best, do we all agree that this is the right standardized format?

[Venger]

I think Grynning's original question has merit; though we all agree that a standardized format is best, do we all agree that this is the right standardized format?

I would say yes. the table lets you see right away class levels, feats, skills, and features, so as a chef, I don't need to worry "oh, I left out xyz" and as a judge, I can look and see "wait, where is his improved xyz coming from? oh, from level two of that class"

[Deadline]

Quick question, is LA Buyoff from Unearthed Arcana allowed?

[Amechra]

It is, but it is frowned upon, and will get you a lower score.

[Piggy Knowles]

You'll usually get docked a point or two for LA buyoff. My advice is to have your base build not include it, but add in an "adaptations" or "other options" section where you state that, if LA buyoff is allowed, you add in X levels of whatever class.

[Deadline]

Which is generally viewed more poorly, LA buyoff, or flaws? I'm trying to squeeze in a feat, and I can't do it without one of those two things (at least, not without resorting to a class that grants bonus feats).

[The Viscount]

Funny, that's how I started out the Shadowblade ICOC. The difference being that, IMO, Shadowblade is an awesome PrC.

During the last IC I might have disagreed with you. Reflecting on Bladesinger, I see that you are right. Shadowblade is a fine PrC. It's so much less restrictive, so much easier to enter, and it gives you so much more. I don't think I've seen this much group despairing since cryokineticist. I salute you, chefs.

[Piggy Knowles]

Which is generally viewed more poorly, LA buyoff, or flaws? I'm trying to squeeze in a feat, and I can't do it without one of those two things (at least, not without resorting to a class that grants bonus feats).

Flaws are a flat -1 penalty to elegance per flaw, according to the rules. LA buyoff varies in how it's penalized from judge to judge - some don't see it as a very big deal, while others could give you a pretty sizable elegance hit. But in my experience, flaws will get you hit harder. (Which makes sense to me personally - I allow LA buyoff in most games I run, but I rarely if ever allow flaws.)

[Norin]

I just love the rich history and fluff around this PrC, but damn i hate how poorly it works crunch wise.

I always wanted to see an official improvement on this PrC but all we got was Duskblade, Abjurant Champion, etc as "real" and effective options.

Oh well, in for keeping an eye on the builds that pop in and the fluff around them. :smallbiggrin: Fun!

[Amphetryon]

I just love the rich history and fluff around this PrC, but damn i hate how poorly it works crunch wise.

I always wanted to see an official improvement on this PrC but all we got was Duskblade, Abjurant Champion, etc as "real" and effective options.

Oh well, in for keeping an eye on the builds that pop in and the fluff around them. :smallbiggrin: Fun!

As I recall, there were a couple different 3.0 PrCs called "Bladesinger" or "Elvish/Elven Bladesinger;" while I'm not advocating them specifically for this contest, they may be worth your while to check out.

[Norin]

As I recall, there were a couple different 3.0 PrCs called "Bladesinger" or "Elvish/Elven Bladesinger;" while I'm not advocating them specifically for this contest, they may be worth your while to check out.

Yeah, Tome and Blood (3.0) had a Bladesinger prc. It's not very good, but it's interesting in it's own way. 10 levels with full bab, good ref\will saves, d8 hd, some bonus feats, bladesong style (int to ac with light armour) and it's own 1st to 4th spell level casting progression with it's own limited spell list.

It's quite odd though, because the text does not say what manner of casting (prepared or spontaneous) or what stat the casting is keyed to as far as i can see... Strange 3.0 splatbooks. :smallconfused:

[Amphetryon]

Yeah, Tome and Blood (3.0) had a Bladesinger prc. It's not very good, but it's interesting in it's own way. 10 levels with full bab, good ref\will saves, d8 hd, some bonus feats, bladesong style (int to ac with light armour) and it's own 1st to 4th spell level casting progression with it's own limited spell list.

It's quite odd though, because the text does not say what manner of casting (prepared or spontaneous) or what stat the casting is keyed to as far as i can see... Strange 3.0 splatbooks. :smallconfused:

There's another in one of the Faerun books.

[Divayth Fyr]

It's quite odd though, because the text does not say what manner of casting (prepared or spontaneous) or what stat the casting is keyed to as far as i can see... Strange 3.0 splatbooks. :smallconfused:
The web enhancement for TaB had a fixed version.

[Norin]

Races of Faerûn, yes.

It's a similar version of the Tome and Blood one, just with some more features (lesser\greater spellsong, song of celerity and song of fury) and an actual description of how the Bladesinger spellcasting works.

Anyways, this was a bit of a digression while still being a bit on topic.

[Norin]

The web enhancement for TaB had a fixed version.

Thanks, i checked it out. I found this a bit funny:


It seems there is an imposter lurking on pages 49 and
50. It’s a bladesinger alright, but there are a few pieces
missing. Here’s the complete version.

edit: seems this fix is more or less resulting in the same PrC as the one in RoF.

[Divayth Fyr]

Races of Faerûn, yes.

It's a similar version of the Tome and Blood one, just with some more features (lesser\greater spellsong, song of celerity and song of fury) and an actual description of how the Bladesinger spellcasting works.
So, basically the version I mentioned (TaB WE)? It has all these features.


Thanks, i checked it out. I found this a bit funny:
Yes, it's the best part of the class ;)

[Deadline]

Flaws are a flat -1 penalty to elegance per flaw, according to the rules. LA buyoff varies in how it's penalized from judge to judge - some don't see it as a very big deal, while others could give you a pretty sizable elegance hit. But in my experience, flaws will get you hit harder. (Which makes sense to me personally - I allow LA buyoff in most games I run, but I rarely if ever allow flaws.)

Thanks for the info, but I've found a way to do it differently. It won't have LA buyoff or flaws, but I am less pleased with the result. We can enter multiple entries, yes? Because I might as well make my first time in the kitchen a busy one. :smallwink:

[Piggy Knowles]

Thanks for the info, but I've found a way to do it differently. It won't have LA buyoff or flaws, but I am less pleased with the result. We can enter multiple entries, yes? Because I might as well make my first time in the kitchen a busy one. :smallwink:

Yup! I've had a few contests where I've entered twice, and once (during the Death Delver competition) we had someone enter three times.

[MidgetMarine]

My oven is a-cooking, and I am proud of my creation.

It is a strange, quirky little souffle. But I love it nonetheless.

[MidgetMarine]

Question.

Must all 10 levels of the secret ingredient be taken?

[Venger]

Question.

Must all 10 levels of the secret ingredient be taken?

the "use of the secret ingredient" section is based on this (among other things) so if you don't finish the secret ingredient, you will lose points from this section

but if you don't want to (and with this SI who could blame you? snap kick as a capstone? whee!) then you're not required to

[Piggy Knowles]

The only two times I submitted a build that did NOT take all ten levels of the SI, I got a medal - the gold in the Initiate of Pistis Sophia, and the silver in Shadowdancer. Judges docked me for it in both instances, but I made up enough points in other areas to make up for it.

In other words... yes, you'll get penalized for it, but don't be afraid to take risks! Some of the best IC builds come that way.

[MidgetMarine]

The only two times I submitted a build that did NOT take all ten levels of the SI, I got a medal - the gold in the Initiate of Pistis Sophia, and the silver in Shadowdancer. Judges docked me for it in both instances, but I made up enough points in other areas to make up for it.

In other words... yes, you'll get penalized for it, but don't be afraid to take risks! Some of the best IC builds come that way.

Sweet.

I'm taking a huge risk.

NOT. TAKING. {Removed}

I know, it's shocking.

I really am so brave.

Thank you for your applause.

[Amphetryon]

So, we'll all have a headstart guessing which one is your entry. . . .

[Vaz]

Why take level 9, then? Surely there's some other front loaded 1/1 Prestige Arcane Caster class you can take that you fit?

[Gotterdammerung]

So, we'll all have a headstart guessing which one is your entry. . . .

He is new. New chefs are always forget about anonymity. At least, I think he is new... *he has that new chef smell*

[OMG PONIES]

you'll get penalized for it, but don't be afraid to take risks!

Can I vote for this to be our motto?

[MidgetMarine]

You'd instantly know which one was mine anyways. But, once again, not set on anything.

It'd be the one with a cumulative score of 0 and the comment of "What were you thinking?....."

[MidgetMarine]

He is new. New chefs are always forget about anonymity. At least, I think he is new... *he has that new chef smell*

It's the Nouveau Chef number 1, a beautiful aroma of Bad ideas and Tier 6 dishes.

[Venger]

It's the Nouveau Chef number 1, a beautiful aroma of Bad ideas and Tier 6 dishes.

hey, don't knock tier 6. samurai got me gold back in hand of the winged masters.

[Kazyan]

hey, don't knock tier 6. samurai got me gold back in hand of the winged masters.

Difficult ingredients are difficult, but there's a difference between a zero-star dish and a zero-star ingredient. It's the same for every rating. Ever had a Sorcerer or Cleric that were nearly unpalatable? Ever experienced a Barbarian with a stronger kick than anything else at the table? I have. But I have no idea how to prepare a Bladesinger.

So, I'll be judging again this round. I understand that half of the entries had issues with my judging last time, so if you guys have any suggestions for revised criteria, go ahead and tell me.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I have to say, I'm glad that everyone is taking my first ICO so well. With an ingredient like Bladesinger...

[Venger]

Difficult ingredients are difficult, but there's a difference between a zero-star dish and a zero-star ingredient. It's the same for every rating. Ever had a Sorcerer or Cleric that were nearly unpalatable? Ever experienced a Barbarian with a stronger kick than anything else at the table? I have. But I have no idea how to prepare a Bladesinger.

So, I'll be judging again this round. I understand that half of the entries had issues with my judging last time, so if you guys have any suggestions for revised criteria, go ahead and tell me.

I see what you mean.

could you please post your criteria in this thread so new chefs can give their spin on them?

[MirddinEmris]

I think i'll join this competition, though i'm a potato-baker. so don't expect real originality from my meal. But i could say i specialize in "exotic" (read: not really tasty and weird) ingredients, so this may be my call)):cool:

[Gotterdammerung]

So, I'll be judging again this round. I understand that half of the entries had issues with my judging last time, so if you guys have any suggestions for revised criteria, go ahead and tell me.

When the contestants respond to a judges comments, don't think of it as "having issues". Everyone wants a chance to make sure their build is properly understood. It is a great privilege that we get that brief window to correspond with you. I wouldn't take it as a personal attack. I think you were a good judge. Think of the player feedback as a blessing. It allows you to focus more on staying fair and true to yourself, knowing full well that you have a safety net to catch any mistakes you might have possibly made.

[Darkcouch]

So, I'll be judging again this round. I understand that half of the entries had issues with my judging last time, so if you guys have any suggestions for revised criteria, go ahead and tell me.

I'm sure there were less issues in your judging last round then my bout with Geomancer. As long as criteria are applied consistently, that's all we can ask.

However, I'm a mechanics guy more so than a fluff guy, so if I had to critique your criteria, I would ask why leaving out a piece of fluff garners more of a penalty than using rules variants and are typos and puncuation really deduction worthy when English may not be the first language for some of the participants?

*just noticed that the rules variant category was per instance while rest were max, nothing to see here.

[Kazyan]

However, I'm a mechanics guy more so than a fluff guy, so if I had to critique your criteria, I would ask why leaving out a piece of fluff garners more of a penalty than using rules variants and are typos and puncuation really deduction worthy when English may not be the first language for some of the participants?

*just noticed that the rules variant category was per instance while rest were max, nothing to see here.

You know, the typos thing is a good point. I didn't consider the ESL participants in the forums when I made mention; it's getting removed now.

With regards to rules variants--I'm not opposed to them, per se. It's the ones that are so friggin' exploitable and/or awkward.

I deduct points for not paying attention to fluff, because a character is more than the delicious chewy center of class levels. I'm fine with refluffing, and encourage it--Tome of Battle, for all its mechanical improvements to melee, has some of the worst fluff in 3.5. If not the worst, it's at least thrown out the most, but Xefas has a better rant on that than I do and it's off-topic. Anyway, in the best RPGs, the mechanics and fluff support each other instead of being estranged. I want to see that. Pounce usually comes from big cats, and Barbarians get it from worshiping big cats. Makes sense. Or maybe you say the extra sword swings come from panic or an adrenaline spike, which comes to the surface when you're suddenly up in someone's grill. Cool. But if you don't give an in-game way of explaining why you have certain unique mechanics? You lose points.


When the contestants respond to a judges comments, don't think of it as "having issues". Everyone wants a chance to make sure their build is properly understood. It is a great privilege that we get that brief window to correspond with you. I wouldn't take it as a personal attack. I think you were a good judge. Think of the player feedback as a blessing. It allows you to focus more on staying fair and true to yourself, knowing full well that you have a safety net to catch any mistakes you might have possibly made.

Ehehe. Thank you. I try to be fair, but once one starts to develop an opinion about a build, the consistency in how I apply the numbers can sway without my conscious awareness. This is why we have the correspondance, after all.


could you please post your criteria in this thread so new chefs can give their spin on them?

Criteria:
While I'm providing numbers, judging is subjective. Where there's something in the build I'd be remiss not to note, I'll take it into account and tweak the scoring.

*dig dig*

*edit edit*

Originality
1: Build is cookie-cutter of the optimization staples.
2: Build isn't quite cookie-cutter, but the devations from the "gish" template are nothing new.
3: Build contains quirky selections and/or optimization staples that I wouldn't have otherwise seen fitting with this party role.
4: Build challenges, not necessarily defies, the "gish" party role.
5: Completely off-the-wall.

Power
1: Build is helpless even at its job.
2: Build cannot fill the roles of a mildly-optimized Eldritch Knight--fightan' and magic.
3: Build fills one party role of a mildly-optimized Eldritch Knight.
4: Build fills both roles of a midly-optimized Eldritch Knight. Approximately a mildly-optimized Swiftblade.
5: You've made the Bladesinger better than a good Swiftblade.

Elegance
All builds will start at Elegance 4, and then given the following deductions and benefits:
-0.5: Difficult to follow or figure out what it does
-1: Choppy power growth so that the build is unacceptably weak for
many levels: waiting for it to "come online", as the other judges put it.
-1: Overreliance on items or other WBL-based options, such as paying NPCs for expensive spells.
-0.5 per use: May-contain-dairy-products rule variants. LA buyoff, magical locations for feats, lesser planetouched, and bloodlines count, but the list is not exhaustive.
-1: Dismissing/handwaving fluff.
Up to -2: Rules violations. Nitpicks that don't affect anything? -0.25. Things that negate one of your tricks or require selective rebuilding? -1. Pulling athread that basically unravels your entire build? -2. Any build that recieves -1 or worse in rules violations is eligible for a 0.
+0.5: Class progression is particularly natural, such as X 5/SI 10/Y 5. Because this is the WORST INGREDIENT, I'll be relaxing standard for this one.
+0.5: Does not require multiclassing penalties to be ignored.
Up to +1: Build seems like it would appear natural, not abominably min-maxed, to a fairly new player. Max score is 5.

Use of the Secret Ingredient
1: Bladesinger is seriously detrimental to your build, as opposed to taking more of a base class.
2: Bladesinger is used, but a categorically better no-brainer option exists. Most of the SI's abilities are ignored.
3: Bladesinger contributes meaningfully to the build. Most of the SI's abilities are used.
4: All of the SI's abilities are used meaningfully. The build is a lot better with the SI then it would be without.
5: The SI is the shining star of the build. There's no impression that the SI has been crowbarred into a more standard build, and it's a Bladesinger showcase. In other words, you justify the existence of this piece of junk.

Don't expect to be able to average all of the Originality scores and wind up with 3, by the way. You'd...you'd have to pick Fochlucan Lyrist for the prereqs to be more enginuity-crushing.

Have I mentioned that I don't particularly like this PrC? I don't.

[MidgetMarine]

Now, as a new chef, I don't know some things.

And one of those is as follows.

How much fluff should be included?
Character back story, etc.?

[Darkcouch]

Now, as a new chef, I don't know some things.

And one of those is as follows.

How much fluff should be included?
Character back story, etc.?

I suggest going back and looking at some of the builds in previous contests. especially the medalists. Links can be found in the first post in this thread. Some fluffs are large enough to require 2 posts some just have a short paragraph or 2.

[dysprosium]

hello everyone. i would like to throw my hat into the ring as well. i'm a long time lurker first time poster.

i think this is going to be fun :smallsmile:

[Deadline]

Kuulvheysoon, my first dish has been submitted. I hope you and the judges like the taste. Please let me know if you received it.

I'll be doing my best to get a separate dish prepared and sent along for consideration as well.

[Vaz]

Bit worrying going up against Eldritch Knight judging wise, it's superior in nearly every way; even with the requisite for 3rd level spells, you're still looking at a minimum of 7th level spells for Eldritch Knight 10 without early entry then forgoing progression after; which can only be competed by a couple of other classes used for entry, all of which would be actually stronger without taking the prerequisites to get in to the Prestige Class, and just going straight progression.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Indeed I did receive it.

It's harder than one thinks, trying to come up with witty commentary for each contestant. I wonder what Amph's secret was...

[The Viscount]

Welcome to our competition, dysprosium! You've certainly picked a challenging ingredient to cook for. I'm quite surprised by the number of people who have stepped up for this one; I didn't think it'd be that alluring. On a similar note, I seem to have found a workable, if crude build for this. I should be submitting as well.

[Amphetryon]

Indeed I did receive it.

It's harder than one thinks, trying to come up with witty commentary for each contestant. I wonder what Amph's secret was...

Most of my comments were only half-witty.

[Gotterdammerung]

Most of my comments were only half-witty.

I too, enjoyed your jokes.
You are being modest. Your comments were entertaining and witty.
They weren't half witty.

Pssst I wouldn't use a hyphen there. the -y suffix is modifying the noun half-wit.

[The Viscount]

Too many times typing half-x races, methinks. Speaking of races, are we assuming any kind of elf qualifies for the SI?

[Kazyan]

Indeed I did receive it.

It's harder than one thinks, trying to come up with witty commentary for each contestant. I wonder what Amph's secret was...

All you have to do is say something, anything, and we get all giddy that someone paid attention to us.

...the rest of you get giddy, right?

[OMG PONIES]

hey, don't knock tier 6. samurai got me gold back in hand of the winged masters.

Yeah, and I pulled down a gold with a Truenamer, which if my count is accurate sits somewhere around Tier 83.


Too many times typing half-x races, methinks. Speaking of races, are we assuming any kind of elf qualifies for the SI?

Do we have to assume that? The Secret Ingredient states elf or half-elf, with no other restrictions. An X Elf is still an elf.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, and I pulled down a gold with a Truenamer, which if my count is accurate sits somewhere around Tier 83.

And here I was thinking that Truenamers were Tier Orange. :smalltongue:

[Warkan]

If the competition is still open, I would like to join as a contestant.

[Kazyan]

And here I was thinking that Truenamers were Tier Orange. :smalltongue:

Bah, we'll just calculate the Truenamer's tier directly.

*math*

How do you solve 8th order differential equations with quaternion coefficients, by the way?

[The Viscount]

If the competition is still open, I would like to join as a contestant.

It is indeed. Welcome to Iron Chef. Join us in our toil.

[sabelo2000]

Dang, 16 March is coming up fast, and I have guard weekend now to take away my cooking time. But, I think I finally have *A* dish, just gotta iron out the minutiae and flow into a table.

Might also put together a dessert!

On other topics, somebody mentioned at the end of last round the idea of peer-review; i.e., each contestant judges the other entries. I'd like to say that, as a new contestant, I hold myself in NO WAY qualified to judge entries. So if that idea is still floating around, my vote is "no."

[Deadline]

Welcome to our competition, dysprosium! You've certainly picked a challenging ingredient to cook for. I'm quite surprised by the number of people who have stepped up for this one; I didn't think it'd be that alluring. On a similar note, I seem to have found a workable, if crude build for this. I should be submitting as well.

I wracked my brain trying to come up with ideas for the last several Iron Chef competitions. This ingredient, however, is simply awful. So bad that it is painful.


Naturally, I have two ideas. :smalltongue:

[Gotterdammerung]

I wracked my brain trying to come up with ideas for the last several Iron Chef competitions. This ingredient, however, is simply awful. So bad that it is painful.


Naturally, I have two ideas. :smalltongue:

Could be worse...could be a lot worse.

We could have to cook with BoVD's Warrior of Darkness, or Disciple of Mephistopheles. I hope we never have to, those would be horrible rounds. I am happy with the boring elf pokey magic round.

Some prestige classes are even too bad for IC.

[rockdeworld]

All you have to do is say something, anything, and we get all giddy that someone paid attention to us.

...the rest of you get giddy, right?
Oh, definitely yes :smalltongue:


Bah, we'll just calculate the Truenamer's tier directly.
According to JaronK, the Truenamer doesn't get a tier because (a) it's broken, and (b) its tier varies wildly depending on what variant rules and level of optimization you use. For example: Use an item familiar, and it suddenly becomes a weak, playable class (about low tier 4, high tier 5). Use the potion variant that spells are inscribed in tiles that you break to activate, and it becomes tier 1 at level 11, when it gets the ability to repair broken magic items.

It seems like a really bad SI pulls in new people. I myself joined with Hand of the Winged Masters, which "has so little going for it that I'd rather Zinc Saucier than Iron Chef." -Kazyan, and "GOD THIS THING HURTS MY SANITY GOOD LORD" -Dragun :smallbiggrin:

Site note: the link in the OP to that thread goes instead to Justicar, here's the right one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257723

[Vaz]

Do we have to assume that? The Secret Ingredient states elf or half-elf, with no other restrictions. An X Elf is still an elf.

Are they like the X-men for the elves or something?

Talking of pulling Golds with low tier classes, I've pulled nowhere near a gold with a Build that learned every spell in the game, and one that had Infinite Strength (it really wasn't well liked AT ALL, one judge sort of went Supernova when they saw it I think). I think they came in like third from last, and last in each one. So, yeah, power isn't everything.

[IamL]

Sorry, I'm a bit new at this, so I'm going to ask an undoubtedly stupid question:
In the skills section of the table (where it says level 2 skills) do I write skills gained or total skills?

[Vaz]

You put your skills total; identify those you've increased in by levelling up, by say an Asterisk, a [+1] by the side, or marking in a different colour.

[IamL]

Okay, thanks.

[Amphetryon]

Sorry, I'm a bit new at this, so I'm going to ask an undoubtedly stupid question:
In the skills section of the table (where it says level 2 skills) do I write skills gained or total skills?
Choose a method that works for you, then indicate clearly somewhere what your method is. Review of previous entries may be helpful.

[relytdan]

I will toss my hat in the ring see what I can cook up..

[Kuulvheysoon]

Some prestige classes are even too bad for IC.

Really? You think so, eh? :smallamused:

[Amphetryon]

Really? You think so, eh? :smallamused:

I can think of a couple of them.

[Venger]

Really? You think so, eh? :smallamused:

fleet runner of ehlonna, one the viscount's rather eager for, seems to fit the bill to me.

see also: fiendbinder, solar channeler, and disciple of baalzebul

[relytdan]

after a minor submission fubar - I have mine sumbitted

[The Viscount]

fleet runner of ehlonna, one the viscount's rather eager for, seems to fit the bill to me.

see also: fiendbinder, solar channeler, and disciple of baalzebul

Solar channeler would make me cry. Fiendbinder isn't good, but workable, and disciple of baalzebul isn't that bad, is it? It's certainly no gnome giant slayer.

[Amphetryon]

Shining Blade of Heinous. (That's not a typo, but a commentary).

[Gotterdammerung]

Really? You think so, eh? :smallamused:

Bring it. I was saying that out of concern for others. But I can take the worst head on. I ain't sceert.

[rockdeworld]

fleet runner of ehlonna, one the viscount's rather eager for, seems to fit the bill to me.

see also: fiendbinder, solar channeler, and disciple of baalzebul
Fleet Runner of Ehlonna is from Dragon Mag, so presumably we won't get that (or if we do, be allowed all of Dragon Mag content :smallamused:), but I might disagree about the others.

Just glancing at it, Fiendbinder doesn't seem bad - you can still get 8th level spells (or 9th with cheese), and you get a some nifty tricks (if perhaps underpowered). The only problem I see is their overly-liberal use of the "legion" (1d6 bone devils or 1d4 barbed devils) and "horde" (1d6 vrocks or 1d4 hezrous).

Solar Channeler still gives you 9th level spells, even if the class itself is slightly more bland than the cleric.

Disciple of Baalzebul... gives you a bonus on bluff checks, but doesn't have bluff as a class skill, has a 1/every-other-day ability, and gives a +4 inherent bonus as a capstone, but it's still workable. It doesn't require spellcasting to get in, but it grants some high-CL (until you pass that level) mind-affecting spells, and you can summon your own flankers at 9th level for sneak attack. Plus it grants better-than-3/4 BAB (not sure how that happened, but I'll take it). Also there are ways of bypassing mind-blank, even if you can't get around immunity to mind-affecting.

As for Shining Blade of H*, I draw your attention to the fact that bows are piercing weapons.

Warrior of Darkness has weird pre-reqs, but gives you a slew of useful bonus feats and pseudo-pounce (at the cost of some MAD).

Disciple of Mephistopheles, I dunno. Fire Adept? CL15 Flare? What were they thinking when they wrote that? A class feature that rewards natural attacks, then another one giving a CL1 searing ray, but without being a spell? However, I can see all these being useful (except Flare).

Not so bad now? What else have you got?

[Amphetryon]

As for Shining Blade of H*, I draw your attention to the fact that bows are piercing weapons, and a archery-focused ranger could make a decent buildWhat does it get you, that you couldn't get from WBL?

[Vaz]

What the hell? Shining Blade of Horsesh...

Makes the Slime Lord look awesome. Blegh.

[nedz]

I've been staring at this PrC for about a week and finally I've had an idea.
You won't like it, but then Bladesinger.
I'll see what I can do about putting an entry together.



so we can quicken a spell. without adjusting its casting time?

does the SI allow a spontaneous caster without rapid metamagic to quicken spells?

You might want to add this to the Dysfunctional Rules thread ?

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to try this game and see how it goes.:smallamused:

[rockdeworld]

What does it get you, that you couldn't get from WBL?
It can give you an effective +10 Brilliant Energy bow (or perhaps more effectively, a +10 Holy bow).
A +1 Sacred Splitting Force Greater Dispelling bow, or a Splitting Magebane (CA version) Seeking Precise Exit Wounds Hank's Energy Bow is good in and of itself (especially when paired with +1 Explosive (HoB version) Phasing [x]-Bane Corrosive Flaming Frost Screaming Distance Swiftwing arrows). Then add Shock, Holy, or (occasionaly) Brilliant Energy, and you have an effective +20/+21/+23 weapon that you couldn't have gotten without this PrC. Granted, that's a 400,000gp investment...

[Kuulvheysoon]

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna is from Dragon Mag, so presumably we won't get that (or if we do, be allowed all of Dragon Mag content :smallamused:), but I might disagree about the others.

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna is also presented in the Dragon Magazine Compendium, rendering it completely eligible as a SI.

[rockdeworld]

Fleet Runner of Ehlonna is also presented in the Dragon Magazine Compendium, rendering it completely eligible as a SI.
So it is, and I stand corrected. In that case, I think it'd do well in some builds It seems like the point of this class is to run really fast and make pounces (except for the random Shot On The Run, dunno what's up with that). While the obvious entry seems to be cleric, I think a good and flavorful build could be made relatively easily.

Edit: Gotterdamerung makes a good point below, so I won't post actual builds and I'm going to stop talking about potential SI builds. Amph, would you edit the part of your post you quoted from me to reflect the change?

[Gotterdammerung]

plz stop talking about possible builds for classes that could potentially be secret ingredients in the future. Is like eating the cake b4 the party.

[The Viscount]

I've been staring at this PrC for about a week and finally I've had an idea.
You won't like it, but then Bladesinger.
I'll see what I can do about putting an entry together.



You might want to add this to the Dysfunctional Rules thread ?

I did so upon reading the class. Gotta love it when the writers aren't paying attention.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I did so upon reading the class. Gotta love it when the writers aren't paying attention.

In that case, Swiftblade also qualifies. Look at their third level ability.

[Pechvarry]

Every bump to this thread pains me because I still have to wait a whole week to see the reveal.

Just thought I'd spread the misery. Enjoy!

[MidgetMarine]

My dish is feeling very vanilla.

May submit it anyways.

Got to start somewhere.

[MidgetMarine]

AND SUBMITTED.

Just posting to confirm you got it, Kuulv.

Also, if I'm missing anything, just PM me and I'll fix it.
As I am new to this kitchen, and still don't know which utensils I am to place at the table.

[The Viscount]

In that case, Swiftblade also qualifies. Look at their third level ability.

While it is irritating that spontaneous casters cannot benefit from it as is, rapid metamagic should allow them to gain the effect, right?

[Piggy Knowles]

Submitted! I've got two other ideas, but unless I get REALLY inspired, I think I'm going to stick with this entry...

[Vaz]

My dish is feeling very vanilla.

May submit it anyways.

Got to start somewhere.

It's likely to be fairly original, then. Some builds come winging out the left field.

[MidgetMarine]

It's likely to be fairly original, then. Some builds come winging out the left field.

Hahaha.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Well, I definitely look forwards to seeing how this goes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

While it is irritating that spontaneous casters cannot benefit from it as is, rapid metamagic should allow them to gain the effect, right?

Well, that , and it specifies that it's cast as a free action, as if with Quicken.

...Keeping in mind that this was post-errata from free -> swift.

[The Viscount]

Ah. I knew I was missing something. Nice catch. You have well earned your right to post it in dysfunctional rules.

My build is coming together. It's not great, but with luck it'll be unconventional enough that the judges will like it. Don't worry about our quibbles, judges. For all my kvetching, I found your criteria rather fair, Kazyan.

[nedz]

OK — just submitted my build.

It seems I've got plenty of time for another one, but not the energy alas :smallamused:

[Kazyan]

Don't worry about our quibbles, judges. For all my kvetching, I found your criteria rather fair, Kazyan.

Whine more; it'll go well with the cheese I'm expecting. :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

F# me, those feat requirements are vile. Absolutely disgusting. Who really requires 4 terrible feats to actually enter the class? And then have absolutely nothing to do with it?

+1 AC? Oh, hi, here's Int to AC (Class Level limited, why? Because Bladesinger's soooo stronnngggg.) Arcane 1st with Half Spell? 5+ Attack Bonus? Any 3/4 BAB or even Full BAB Arcane Casters are all able to cast in Light Armour without ASF anyway, and any that I can think of that can't are all Poor BAB full casters, and would be horrendously gimping themselves by taking the feats, skill points AND investment in their own classes by taking this class.

Kuhlveysoon, keep an eye out. I'm watching you. I know where you live. :#

In other words, back to the drawing board.

[Kazyan]

Okay, that should be enough to get me through a few more entires. :smallwink:

[nedz]

F# me, those feat requirements are vile. Absolutely disgusting. Who really requires 4 terrible feats to actually enter the class? And then have absolutely nothing to do with it?

+1 AC? Oh, hi, here's Int to AC (Class Level limited, why? Because Bladesinger's soooo stronnngggg.) Arcane 1st with Half Spell? 5+ Attack Bonus? Any 3/4 BAB or even Full BAB Arcane Casters are all able to cast in Light Armour without ASF anyway, and any that I can think of that can't are all Poor BAB full casters, and would be horrendously gimping themselves by taking the feats, skill points AND investment in their own classes by taking this class.

Kuhlveysoon, keep an eye out. I'm watching you. I know where you live. :#

In other words, back to the drawing board.

Well Weapon Focus seems relevant, and the skills are a bit easy, but yeah it's a classic IC PrC. Has anyone ever used this in a real game I wonder ?

[Piggy Knowles]

nedz, you just made me stop and think what former IC ingredients I would use in a real game...

Entropomancer: Maybe I'd use it, it has some cool debuff options and the fluff is fun.
Psibond Agent: Absolutely, could be fun.
Cancer Mage: Eh, fluff is fun but I probably wouldn't use it in a non-TO game.
Stonelord: Probably not.
War Chanter: Probably not short of some very niche builds.
Master of Masks: More than a one or two level dip? Lord no.
Green Star Adept: NO.
Pyrokineticist: I *have* used it before, in an SRD-only game. It was honestly pretty fun.
Animal Lord: Probably not.
Mythic Exemplar: Probably not.
Blade Bravo: I totally would play a Blade Bravo.
War Mind: I've used it in a one-off game before, and would 100% use it again.
Vigilante: Yes, absolutely!
Seeker of the Song: I could see myself using it, maybe.
Drunken Master: Yech, I doubt it.
Assassin: I've used it before, I'm sure I'll use it again. One of my favorite PrCs, minus the evil bit.
Ardent Dilettante: YES! Another absolute favorite PrC. I recently used it in a fun artificer/factotum build.
Unseelie Dark Hunter: Nope, I would find something else.
Dread Pirate: I'd use this one, maybe.
Incandescent Champion: No way.
Ghostwalker: Nope.
Dervish: Probably not.
Divine Crusader: Using it in a game now, to add some decent spellcasting on my mini-ubercharger.
Tactical Soldier: No friggin' way.
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu: I love the hippo-bite feat, but I would probably never use the class.
Shadowdancer: I've used it before, but only as a dip.
Mindbender: Yes, definitely, and not just as a dip - I'd play this whole class, as uncool as that is.
Cryokineticist: Good lord no.
Consecrated Harrier: Probably not.
Initiate of Pistis Sophia: NONONO.
Shadow Sentinel: No.
Temple Raider of Olidammara: No.
Drow Judicator: NO.
Dragon Disciple: .......maybe?
Death Delver: Yes, totally I'd use this!
Acolyte of the Skin: Probably not, unless the fear beams were houseruled to have more uses.
Justiciar: As a two-level dip, maybe.
Hand of the Winged Master: Probably not.
Renegade Mastermaker: Maybe but probably not - if I wanted to play a warforged, I'd just play a warforged.
Nightsong Infiltrator: Probably not.
Geomancer: Maybe.
Shadowblade: No.
Bladesinger: No friggin' way.

I'm honestly surprised by how many I'd use for more than just a dip in an actual game.

[123456789blaaa]

I'd totally play tweaked versions of many of the winning builds.

[nedz]

I'm going to try to quantify your answers on a scale of 1-5, just for fun.


3 Entropomancer: Maybe I'd use it, it has some cool debuff options and the fluff is fun.
5 Psibond Agent: Absolutely, could be fun.
1 Cancer Mage: Eh, fluff is fun but I probably wouldn't use it in a non-TO game.
2 Stonelord: Probably not.
2 War Chanter: Probably not short of some very niche builds.
2 Master of Masks: More than a one or two level dip? Lord no.
1 Green Star Adept: NO.
5 Pyrokineticist: I *have* used it before, in an SRD-only game. It was honestly pretty fun.
2 Animal Lord: Probably not.
2 Mythic Exemplar: Probably not.
4 Blade Bravo: I totally would play a Blade Bravo.
5 War Mind: I've used it in a one-off game before, and would 100% use it again.
5 Vigilante: Yes, absolutely!
3 Seeker of the Song: I could see myself using it, maybe.
2 Drunken Master: Yech, I doubt it.
5 Assassin: I've used it before, I'm sure I'll use it again. One of my favorite PrCs, minus the evil bit.
5 Ardent Dilettante: YES! Another absolute favorite PrC. I recently used it in a fun artificer/factotum build.
1 Unseelie Dark Hunter: Nope, I would find something else.
3 Dread Pirate: I'd use this one, maybe.
1 Incandescent Champion: No way.
1 Ghostwalker: Nope.
2 Dervish: Probably not.
5 Divine Crusader: Using it in a game now, to add some decent spellcasting on my mini-ubercharger.
1 Tactical Soldier: No friggin' way.
1 Scion of Tem-Et-Nu: I love the hippo-bite feat, but I would probably never use the class.
2 Shadowdancer: I've used it before, but only as a dip.
4 Mindbender: Yes, definitely, and not just as a dip - I'd play this whole class, as uncool as that is.
1 Cryokineticist: Good lord no.
2 Consecrated Harrier: Probably not.
1 Initiate of Pistis Sophia: NONONO.
1 Shadow Sentinel: No.
1 Temple Raider of Olidammara: No.
1 Drow Judicator: NO.
3 Dragon Disciple: .......maybe?
4 Death Delver: Yes, totally I'd use this!
2 Acolyte of the Skin: Probably not, unless the fear beams were houseruled to have more uses.
3 Justiciar: As a two-level dip, maybe.
2 Hand of the Winged Master: Probably not.
3 Renegade Mastermaker: Maybe but probably not - if I wanted to play a warforged, I'd just play a warforged.
2 Nightsong Infiltrator: Probably not.
3 Geomancer: Maybe.
1 Shadowblade: No.
1 Bladesinger: No friggin' way.
=================
1 14 32%
2 12 28%
3 7 16%
4 3 7%
5 7 16%

If my numbers are wrong you can tweak them but that's still only about 23% which you like.:smallamused:

[Kuulvheysoon]

nedz, you just made me stop and think what former IC ingredients I would use in a real game...

You've got me thinking...

Entropomancer: I highly doubt it.
Psibond Agent: As an NPC, absolutely. As a PC... Probably not.
Cancer Mage: No. Cheese is cheesy.
Stonelord: My dwarven warblade actually has a few Stonelord levels in it. :smalltongue:
War Chanter: Maybe if I really needed some BAB on a bard build...
Master of Masks: Never really looked at it beyond the 2 level dip, in all honesty.
Green Star Adept: HELLS no.
Pyrokineticist: Definitely. My sister is playing a Hexblade arsonist who's planning on taking levels in this.
Animal Lord: Doubt it.
Mythic Exemplar: Not likely.
Blade Bravo: Not a fan of gnomes, so no.
War Mind: Without a doubt, yes. I was pretty surprised when I saw that this had been used as a SI, actually.
Vigilante: With Arcane Strike, totally. :smalltongue:
Seeker of the Song: I could see myself using it, maybe.
Drunken Master: Highly doubt it.
Assassin: My first rogue multi-classed into Avenger (Good assassin), and it wasn't too shabby.
Ardent Dilettante: Nope.
Unseelie Dark Hunter: Maybe, sheerly for the novelty value of a Wisdom-based arcane caster.
Dread Pirate: I've built a handful of NPCs with this, but for a character, probably not.
Incandescent Champion: No.
Ghostwalker: Love the flavour, so I probably would.
Dervish: I highly doubt it.
Divine Crusader: If I was stacking Charisma and had an IC reason? Sure.
Tactical Soldier: No.
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu: If I was playing in my desert campaign, I totally would.
Shadowdancer: Dip-only, likely.
Mindbender: Probably not. Not a fan of enchantment in general.
Cryokineticist: If only I had Frostburn, I could tell you.
Consecrated Harrier: Probably not.
Initiate of Pistis Sophia: NEVER AGAIN.
Shadow Sentinel: No.
Temple Raider of Olidammara: No.
Drow Judicator: This class... just... no.
Dragon Disciple: I'd sooner play a Dragon Devotee.
Death Delver: Probably not. Not such a huge fan of this one.
Acolyte of the Skin: No. This thing was just plain bad.
Justiciar: Probably not.
Hand of the Winged Master: Doubt it.
Renegade Mastermaker: Maybe if we were playing a Teen Titans-themed game, and I picked the Cyborg card....
Nightsong Infiltrator: Probably not.
Geomancer: Not going to happen.
Shadowblade: Not bloody likely.
Bladesinger: Not going to happen.

[Amphetryon]

Of the builds I've submitted, the ones I'd be most tempted to play in a real game were not the ones that won; I'd love to play Daken (my War Mind entry) at some point, and Harv (the first of my two Ghostwalker entries) has a certain draw to me as well. I suppose that's got to do with archetype, as much as anything.

[rockdeworld]

Renegade Mastermaker: Maybe but probably not - if I wanted to play a warforged, I'd just play a warforged.
Shadowblade: No.

Renegade Mastermaker: Maybe if we were playing a Teen Titans-themed game, and I picked the Cyborg card....
Shadowblade: Not bloody likely.
How weird, I would play both of those. I enjoyed making Father Aldren, esp. given that he was a bit on the optimized side, and I would play him.

Shadowblade still seems like a cool PrC to me, even after building it. I would play a slightly altered version of my build - Spellthief 7/Shadowblade 10/Hellbreaker 4, for improved spellthieving and Spellthief class features.

And I keep forgetting this: welcome new chefs, and good luck! As we say in China: jia you! (Fight!)

[Piggy Knowles]

I enjoyed making Jef Costello and the Shadowblade build, and I think that Renegade Mastermaker is actually a pretty solid PrC (and totally loved the AM-1468 build I put together for it). But if I were in an actual campaign, I'm pretty sure I could find better options for both builds. Jef would miss Unerring Strike but I could find a workaround with better skills, while AM-1468 could start out as a warforged who dips artificer and creates his own battlefist, and get into Soul Eater a little earlier for the best part of the trick to come online.

[Amphetryon]

Shadowblade still seems like a cool PrC to me, even after building it. I would play a slightly altered version of my build - Spellthief 7/Shadowblade 10/Hellbreaker 4, for improved spellthieving and Spellthief class features.
21 levels? :smallconfused:

[nedz]

Well real games aren't the same as IC

My thoughts on these
1 Entropomancer: No
4 Psibond Agent: Maybe, if we used psionics
1 Cancer Mage: Never
2 Stonelord: This class just seems all over the place, maybe a dip, maybe
4 War Chanter: I've seen this used, it was OK
2 Master of Masks: Maybe, but polymorph.
1 Green Star Adept: Eat my rocks
3 Pyrokineticist: I don't know this one
2 Animal Lord: It's OK, but not for me.
2 Mythic Exemplar: No
5 Blade Bravo: I like small characters
3 War Mind: Maybe, but no psi
4 Vigilante: For the right build
3 Seeker of the Song: Possibly, maybe
4 Drunken Master: I've thought about it - in a light hearted game I would
4 Assassin: As an antagonist yes
3 Ardent Dilettante: Compulsory Charades, maybe but probably not.
3 Unseelie Dark Hunter: I don't know this one
4 Dread Pirate: Ahoy there
2 Incandescent Champion: Probably no
4 Ghostwalker: Interesting melee, but for the Feat tax: Endurance , Iron Will , Toughness
4 Dervish: I'm going to try this out on an antagonist shortly, my view may change.
4 Divine Crusader: Yeah, but there are more interesting options
2 Tactical Soldier: No.
2 Scion of Tem-Et-Nu: Full BAB, half casting. I'm sure I've seen a class like that recently
1 Shadowdancer: Dip 1 maybe
1 Mindbender: Lets break the rogues shall we
3 Cryokineticist: Maybe, but psi
3 Consecrated Harrier: maybe, but it is dull
2 Initiate of Pistis Sophia: No
4 Shadow Sentinel: Possibly
1 Temple Raider of Olidammara: No.
1 Drow Judicator: No
1 Dragon Disciple: No
3 Death Delver: As an antagonist
1 Acolyte of the Skin: No
3 Justiciar: NPC class
4 Hand of the Winged Master: Possibly
2 Renegade Mastermaker: NPC, but why not just make a Warforged ?
2 Nightsong Infiltrator: No
2 Geomancer: No
1 Shadowblade: No
2 Bladesinger: No

[Vaz]

Geomancer (if you haven't noticed), albeit slightly modified has since become a favourite usage of mine. I really need to type up a guide to it, perhaps after the IC.

Shadowblade, I had brilliant fun with Keeliani Amaruak, making it. Recieving the scores less so.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well real games aren't the same as IC

My thoughts on these
3 Pyrokineticist: I don't know this one

Ask and ye shall receive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm).

[MidgetMarine]

F# me, those feat requirements are vile. Absolutely disgusting. Who really requires 4 terrible feats to actually enter the class? And then have absolutely nothing to do with it?

+1 AC? Oh, hi, here's Int to AC (Class Level limited, why? Because Bladesinger's soooo stronnngggg.) Arcane 1st with Half Spell? 5+ Attack Bonus? Any 3/4 BAB or even Full BAB Arcane Casters are all able to cast in Light Armour without ASF anyway, and any that I can think of that can't are all Poor BAB full casters, and would be horrendously gimping themselves by taking the feats, skill points AND investment in their own classes by taking this class.

I love this class.

Simply because it's so lackluster.

My logic?
I don't know.
I just do.

[nedz]

Ask and ye shall receive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm).

This reminds me of a certain web comic :smallbiggrin:

And I think I would classify this as antagonist only, but it could be quite fun, at least until the opposition casts Protection from Fire. So this would go from 3 to 1 on the basis that it is very easily countered and would get old fast.

[MidgetMarine]

This reminds me of a certain web comic :smallbiggrin:

And I think I would classify this as antagonist only, but it could be quite fun, at least until the opposition casts Protection from Fire. So this would go from 3 to 1 on the basis that it is very easily countered and would get old fast.

It's a really fun class.

The pathfinder version is even better.
I'm currently running a Tiefling that has levels in it.
(If my avatar didn't give it away)

It's a little niche.

But it is A LOT of fun.

[Gotterdammerung]

I think it is quicker to just list the SI's I flat out wouldn't play. I am surprisingly tolerant of prestige classes and don't mind most of the current SI's.

Pyrokineticist
Cryokineticist
Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Acolyte of the skin

I would never play these classes because they are extremely poorly designed.

Bladesinger

I would not play this class because I don't like the generic elven gish fluff. And if I was into that sort of thing, there are tons of prestige classes (and even a base class) with the same fluff but stronger mechanics.





The rest of them I would have no problem playing.

I would be especially excited to play renegade mastermaker, Geomancer (my favorite prestige class), and mindbender (specifically my mindbender entry Shelob Ephel Duath. The idea of a enchanter who enthralls vermin and walks around with a bunch 39 hit dice awakened leech walkers [MM2] as bruisers is pretty frikkin cool to me).

[Vaz]

1st build in. Was a bit of a monster to get that it, escalated quickly, but very happy with it. Just posting to confirm?

Think I've got a second one in me, so might have a mooch tomorrow at another.

[The Viscount]

I can't say I'd want to play too many of the SIs that have been used. Pyrokineticist seems like it could be fun in a low power game. I was so relieved to see that everybody else hated Initiate of Pistis Sophia, too. Then again, what can you say about a class that only has two means of entry if you want to finish before lvl 20? While I did not care for Shadowblade, and Geomancer was only decent in my eyes, I'd play Bjorn Ioreksen. I had fun making him.

Also, when working on filling out the table, I glanced at Bladesinger and saw bladesong style. I couldn't help but see this ( http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/506b64736bb3f74155000003-400-300/psy-gangnam-style-dance.jpg).

[rockdeworld]

21 levels? :smallconfused:
No, I added more than I took out. If I was going to epic play, I'd stay Spellthief 21 (or something with Master Spellthief) and ask the DM to let me take Epic Spellcasting. Drop that to Hellbreaker 3.

It seems like most of us are more affectionate for builds we've made, even with PrCs we otherwise wouldn't like. I say that means we did a good job on the fluff.

@The_Viscount: Are those two entry methods you're referring to Monk and Monk of the Enabled Hand? Haztaratain, Argent Fist, Enlightened Fist, and Arcanopath Monk seem like they would work too, though I admit I only glanced at them.

[Ifni]

nedz, you just made me stop and think what former IC ingredients I would use in a real game...

Your list made me think about the ones I've seen in real games. Mostly in Living Greyhawk (that is, characters started at L1 and usually took several years of consistent play to reach the higher levels, so any character with a PrC represented a pretty significant time investment on the player's part)... and here's the resulting list:


Stonelord
War Chanter
Green Star Adept
Animal Lord
Blade Bravo
Seeker of the Song
Drunken Master
Dread Pirate
Dervish
Shadowdancer
Mindbender
Temple Raider of Olidammara
Dragon Disciple
Nightsong Infiltrator
Geomancer
Bladesinger

Quite a few, really.

(Also, Dervish was an SI? Seriously? Complete Warrior Dervish? It's a rather good PrC... that's one I've played, on a real character, from L1-16. He took all ten levels, too.)

And yes, I've seen Bladesinger in play. It was not a very strong build.

[Venger]

No, I added more than I took out. If I was going to epic play, I'd stay Spellthief 21 (or something with Master Spellthief) and ask the DM to let me take Epic Spellcasting. Drop that to Hellbreaker 3.

It seems like most of us are more affectionate for builds we've made, even with PrCs we otherwise wouldn't like. I say that means we did a good job on the fluff.

@The_Viscount: Are those two entry methods you're referring to Monk and Monk of the Enabled Hand? Haztaratain, Argent Fist, Enlightened Fist, and Arcanopath Monk seem like they would work too, though I admit I only glanced at them.

he is indeed referring to monk and monk of the enabled hand, since those are the only two ways to qualify for the secret ingredient.

one of the prereq feats, sanctify ki strike, requires ki strike (law) (and a cha of 15, just to rope in the one stat you didn't need) which monks only get at level 10, and monks of the enabled hand get at 2.

Haztaratain, argent fist, enlightened fist, and arcanopath do not give ki strike (law)

though I placed in pistis sophia, I wouldn't use shui in a game because of how little choice I was allowed by the SI.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It seems like most of us are more affectionate for builds we've made, even with PrCs we otherwise wouldn't like. I say that means we did a good job on the fluff.

@The_Viscount: Are those two entry methods you're referring to Monk and Monk of the Enabled Hand? Haztaratain, Argent Fist, Enlightened Fist, and Arcanopath Monk seem like they would work too, though I admit I only glanced at them.

IoPS needed Ki strike (lawful) to enter. It's a surprisingly rare ability, only granted to Monks and Monks of the Enabled Hand.

[Kazyan]

After so. Much. Whinging. About this class, I finally have an idea that's panning out. (It was the first one. It managed to shake itself down into fitting.) I might enter instead of judging, but considering how school has picked up recently, possibly not.

By jove, I hope no one has the same idea...

[The Viscount]

he is indeed referring to monk and monk of the enabled hand, since those are the only two ways to qualify for the secret ingredient.
one of the prereq feats, sanctify ki strike, requires ki strike (law) (and a cha of 15, just to rope in the one stat you didn't need) which monks only get at level 10, and monks of the enabled hand get at 2.

Not only that, but a straight monk needs Vow of Poverty to enter the class at level 11, because it's the only way to get sanctify ki strike on time. I'm not sure if they intended for this class to be so frustratingly difficult to enter, or if they just didn't notice. I give them even odds honestly. It certainly does back up the whole "the path of the righteous is not an easy one" sentiment.

[MidgetMarine]

5 days!
Wooo!

I'm really excited for the reveal.
Not because I stand a chance, but because I'm excited to see what others did with the SI.

[The Viscount]

Right with you, MidgetMarine. You've almost certainly done better than I have.

[Xodion]

Thanks to work, life and then buying a house I've been off the internet for weeks, and just had it installed in the new place this weekend. Everything's settling down, and I thought "I'll maybe have enough time for a good IC, let's see what's cooking... BLADESINGER? :smallbiggrin:"

Yeah, it's a not a great class, but I love elves, especially warrior elves, and I have a cunning plan already (although only 5 days to do it, eep).

[IamL]

Just finished my first-ever Iron Chef entry...Not great, but decent. I won't have any chance of winning, but I liked making my character.

[Soranar]

I don't know, every time I come up with something I keep hitting the same wall : "what does bladesinger contribute?".

Definitely one of the harder entries imo

[The Viscount]

Yeah, it's a not a great class, but I love elves, especially warrior elves, and I have a cunning plan already (although only 5 days to do it, eep).

I have faith in you. (http://sayhellostephanie.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/you-can-do-it.jpg)

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't know, every time I come up with something I keep hitting the same wall : "what does bladesinger contribute?".

Definitely one of the harder entries imo

^This, I had an interesting idea; but when I looked tried to start building I thought "Wait, why am I using Bladesinger again?" and just gave up. Right now I don't have the time nor the inclination to make a build, nevermind one using such a hard ingredient. So I'll just watch you guys.

[T.G. Oskar]

I was thinking about making two entries for this, but I'm not sure about the taste of the other one compared to the entry I've placed already.

Compared to that build, the one that's still on the grill doesn't look so hot. Oddly enough, it's not because of the secret ingredient: it's how to tackle it. Really tempted to shelve it, because of the issues it has, and because the geniality of the first build simply eclipsed it.

I'm now desperate to see how my build will be the shameful last, because everybody thought of better options!

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just finished my first-ever Iron Chef entry...Not great, but decent. I won't have any chance of winning, but I liked making my character.

I have not received and entry from you, IamL. Have you send it yet?

EDIT: 8 entries so far - better than I expected (I'm expecting more than a few last-minute entries).

[Gotterdammerung]

I have not received and entry from you, IamL. Have you send it yet?

EDIT: 8 entries so far - better than I expected (I'm expecting more than a few last-minute entries).

Yeh, I am up to my old bad habits. Expect my entry to slide in sometime at the last minute. (Stats, Classes, feats, and magic items are chosen. Story is in rough draft mode. Skills aren't done. Nothing is in any charts.)

[Draz74]

It's been over two years since I got around to making an Iron Chef contestant. But I've played around with this PrC before, so I had a couple builds occur to me unexpectedly. So I may not only compete, but with two entries.

I doubt they'll win any Originality awards, but with how much other people are complaining about this SI, I'm hopeful that I'll be competitive overall.

I have levels, feats, skills, and spells all figured out, and even formatted. Still waiting for a muse for fluff, general explanations of the builds' strength, etc.

[nedz]

I don't know, every time I come up with something I keep hitting the same wall : "what does bladesinger contribute?".

Definitely one of the harder entries imo

Well I'd be surprised if anyone finds a meaningful use for either Lesser or Greater Spellsong. I mean it's a half caster with a pre-req of Combat Casting and being int based means it's not short of skill points; and then it decides to wear light armour at high level.:smallsigh:

[The Viscount]

Lesser spellsong is so useful for making super double extra sure you make that concentration check! And Greater spellsong works for all those characters who enter without armored mage!

I just realized that Lesser spellsong is the ability with the greater benefit. How very humorous. The turnout for this class is astounding. Good luck to all.

[MidgetMarine]

Good luck to all.

We're using Bladesinger.

That's impossible.

[Darkcouch]

Build submitted.

I've had my build all pretty in a table since last Wednesday i just procrastinate so bad when it comes to writing the fluff.

I just had another build idea that would probably score decently, but I don't have the fortitude to write up another set of fluff.

[T.G. Oskar]

We're using Bladesinger.

That's impossible.

Whaddya mean impossible?

Don't you know who we are?

WE ARE TEAM GURREN THE IRON CHEFS OF OPTIMIZATION!

Do the impossible and kick logic common sense to the curb!

...I mean, if the Iron Chefs have tackled stuff such as Drow Judicator, why not this, which has more spell slots? Or class features that can be used more than once per day, aside from Song of Celerity? Compared to some of the entries? This one's rather tame. It's how to work the other ingredients that makes it less tame.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Whaddya mean impossible?

Don't you know who we are?

WE ARE TEAM GURREN THE IRON CHEFS OF OPTIMIZATION!

Do the impossible and kick logic common sense to the curb!

...I mean, if the Iron Chefs have tackled stuff such as Drow Judicator, why not this, which has more spell slots? Or class features that can be used more than once per day, aside from Song of Celerity? Compared to some of the entries? This one's rather tame. It's how to work the other ingredients that makes it less tame.

Funny enough, I might have actually played Daresh (my Drow Judicator). I mean, how often do you actually see the Combat Form feats? That and I really like his fluff.

[FyreByrd]

^This, I had an interesting idea; but when I looked tried to start building I thought "Wait, why am I using Bladesinger again?" and just gave up. Right now I don't have the time nor the inclination to make a build, nevermind one using such a hard ingredient. So I'll just watch you guys.

I think I'm chiming in with this, desperately wanted to make something work, but just couldn't get away from the fact that just taking more levels in REDACTED was just better all round.

Ah well...next time!

[IamL]

I have not received and entry from you, IamL. Have you send it yet?

EDIT: 8 entries so far - better than I expected (I'm expecting more than a few last-minute entries).

Yeah, I haven't entered it yet. I figured that I'd want to double-check everything when I wasn't drop-dead tired.

[Deadline]

Second submission sent. I have to stop now, despite having another idea. Make the terrible SI stop! *runs screaming*

[Shining Wrath]

Still working on an entry. Not too far off; I think I want to rework some skill selection and do the spell table.

[Vaz]

ooh, ooh, build number 2 planned. Let's get a wiggle on and format it.

[Venger]

Not only that, but a straight monk needs Vow of Poverty to enter the class at level 11, because it's the only way to get sanctify ki strike on time. I'm not sure if they intended for this class to be so frustratingly difficult to enter, or if they just didn't notice. I give them even odds honestly. It certainly does back up the whole "the path of the righteous is not an easy one" sentiment.

not sure if I mentioned earlier, but I'm pretty sure the writer of the class confused ki strike (law) with ki strike (magic) and thought you got it at monk 4 instead of monk 10.

this way, due to the prereq of concentration 9 (a skill that monks use for absolutely nothing) and base all saves +5, along with its 3 exalted feats, one could qualify at monk 6 without vop, and have enough time to finish the class and 4 more levels for something worthwhile besides.

[MidgetMarine]

Are magic items a must-have in the presentation of the build?
I didn't include them because I presumed we were showcasing the natural power of the build.

[Venger]

Are magic items a must-have in the presentation of the build?
I didn't include them because I presumed we were showcasing the natural power of the build.

no, but if there's one or two specific things that you feel would make the build more interesting, it doesn't hurt to mention them in an equipment section (bands of fortune on a luck based character, choker of eloquence on a diplomonster, etc)

no need to list everything your guy/gal has (tomes, ring of deflection, etc) since it is indeed about showcasing the natural power of the build

[Piggy Knowles]

I have found that plotting out full items, and going too far in suggesting what gear a character will pick up, can actually hurt you as far as scoring goes. I think it can detract from the build as a whole, and draw attention away from your build's combos and features.

Personally, I try to have a brief "suggested items" section rather than fully gearing up my characters, although I have been known to skip it altogether and just let the build stand alone.

[Vaz]

Do we have any judges yet? What are the opinions regarding a dip: how many is considered excessive (worthy of penalising), and what constitutes andip?

[Dusk Eclipse]

How the hell do you people get enough inspiration for two builds? I wracked my brain trying to figure out just one! And in the end it isn't worth it >_< I'm, jealous.

[Vaz]

9 level build with bladesinger and 1 arcane class tacked on, sadly. Still its half done, and i like the fluff, so i might as well finish it.

[dysprosium]

i have my crunch ready just working on the fluff.

oh and so no one gets my build confused with the others, mine is the one with bladesinger in it. :smallwink:

[Gotterdammerung]

I have found that plotting out full items, and going too far in suggesting what gear a character will pick up, can actually hurt you as far as scoring goes. I think it can detract from the build as a whole, and draw attention away from your build's combos and features.

Personally, I try to have a brief "suggested items" section rather than fully gearing up my characters, although I have been known to skip it altogether and just let the build stand alone.

I tend to agree with Piggy Knowles. But I feel that some S.I.'s occasionally warrant more time spent on the items section. For instance, a class like this one has abilities focused on improving your weapon and armor. What weapon and armor you buy will directly affect the power of the SI and if you buy the nonmagical weapon and armor then you aren't really using the SI to it's full potential.

So as a general rule I don't spend much time on the items section and like Piggy I just suggest good items. But when an SI has built in item dependency, I take a little extra time to make appropriate item choices.

[Kazyan]

*Flips table* one of the other ingredients I was going to add has everything except what I nee,d, and that was going to be the tradeoff for whargharbl BACK TO BEING THE JUDGE. I'll explain what I was doing after the reveal.

[nedz]

Yeah, that's why elves are hipsters: their prestige classes are so hard to enter; everyone else's are just so mainstream.

I chased one idea through nine different builds before I got something to work.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh great chairman, my humble submission disgraces your inbox.

[Shining Wrath]

i have my crunch ready just working on the fluff.

oh and so no one gets my build confused with the others, mine is the one with bladesinger in it. :smallwink:

That's good. Mine has Bladesinger, with the PROPER CAPITALS DAMMIT :smallfurious:

[T.G. Oskar]

Hey, guys! Stop with the reveals!

What if someone is using a Songblader instead? Or a Blade-Zinger? Or a Vlad Sanger? A Swordchanter, or is it a Chantsworder? Or, heck, even a Pole Dancer!

Wait until the reveals are done, and then you can say which are yours! I mean, what are the chances that everyone uses a Bladesinger...?

[sabelo2000]

Crap, I'm going up against Vaz, Gotterdammerung, and Draz with THIS yeth-hound dropping of a SI? I stand a snowball's chance in Phlegethon.

Still, expect my build at the last second. Real Life is taking its toll this month.

[Vaz]

Heh, my last two entries bombed. Elegance and cheese and UoSI were not brilliant.

[Vaz]

Rateo, got my second one in now.

[MidgetMarine]

I can just tell that I am about to get completely dunked.

[Deadline]

I can just tell that I am about to get completely dunked.

Meh, it's my first time entering as well. So at least you'll have company at the bottom. Also, I think there may be a problem with one of my builds, can I re-submit the build, or is it set in stone?

[Amphetryon]

Meh, it's my first time entering as well. So at least you'll have company at the bottom. Also, I think there may be a problem with one of my builds, can I re-submit the build, or is it set in stone?

Lots of folks have taken advantage of the opportunity to polish and resubmit builds in the past (assuming the current Chair doesn't set a new precedent on that front). Just be sure to clearly label which one you want presented as "Final copy" or something.

[T.G. Oskar]

Crap, I'm going up against Vaz, Gotterdammerung, and Draz with THIS yeth-hound dropping of a SI? I stand a snowball's chance in Phlegethon.


I can just tell that I am about to get completely dunked.


Meh, it's my first time entering as well. So at least you'll have company at the bottom.

Never say never. I don't have to explain the concept of a "dark horse", right? One of you could be that.

Then again, you might be attempting to cheat Fate. As in, you claim "oh, I'm a beginner competing against established cooks; I'm toast!", and then you win by sheer beginner's luck, while others may claim "this build is a definite winner!" and then get the last place because everyone else's better. If so, I betcha that probably won't be the case: at best, expect one dark horse, one surprising disappointment, and probably a repeat build where one does its thing better than the other.

[Shining Wrath]

Never say never. I don't have to explain the concept of a "dark horse", right? One of you could be that.

Then again, you might be attempting to cheat Fate. As in, you claim "oh, I'm a beginner competing against established cooks; I'm toast!", and then you win by sheer beginner's luck, while others may claim "this build is a definite winner!" and then get the last place because everyone else's better. If so, I betcha that probably won't be the case: at best, expect one dark horse, one surprising disappointment, and probably a repeat build where one does its thing better than the other.

It's my first as well, so I may have procedural / format issues, but I think over-doing the complexity of the build counts against you, so we pathetic n00bs may win because of our n00bosity not despite it.

[mattie_p]

Having a lengthy back story helps, a lot. True, it is not part of the official judging categories, but it is certainly expected.

[Kazyan]

Having a lengthy back story helps, a lot. True, it is not part of the official judging categories, but it is certainly expected.

Personally, I just want to see that you've accounted for the contents of the build.

[Shining Wrath]

Personally, I just want to see that you've accounted for the contents of the build.

Build first; story second. At least that was my approach.

[MidgetMarine]

SO CLOSE.

TICK TOCK, Chefs.

Tick tock.


God, I'm excited.
I can't believe I haven't done this until now.

[IamL]

Spell list got deleted when my computer crashed...AUIGRDHJKSBLAHE;DF;AKLHVAEWGUAVSCILJKVFA HDJSC;HFiusozjklvisafuhuiseowdjvhbkdsc!!
(random show of frustration on the keyboard.)