Build a But-Kicking Hero with only 2 books!

[metabolicjosh]

Okay so I need 2 level 10 Heroes for a upcoming game. I can use 2 books for each one.

No wizards or sorcerers :(

Any builds or advice?

[Silva Stormrage]

Do you get core books included? I would imagine not being able to choose core feats to be somewhat difficult.

Well, I am biased towards necromancers but Dread Necromancers can work quite well with only 2 books (Libris Mortis and Heroes of Horror). Corpse Crafter, Tomb Tained Soul and minion mancy spam. Would be an anti hero type of build.


For your second hero you could have a warblade or crusader (Crusader might be more helpful to the Dread Necromancer). Both really just need ToB. Also you could turn him into a necropoplitain with your DN. Its not really using Libris Mortis for this build since your DN is the one preforming a ritual. (Also you get all the awesome DN bonuses for doing it :smalltongue:) For the second book you could really choose whatever you want. Players handbook would be really nice if it is not automatically given.

That way both your characters have at will healing, hp, and quite a lot of synergy with undead hordes.

[metabolicjosh]

That is a pretty solid build. I like the synergy too.

Hmm... I would say that Dr. Dreadlocks and Mr. McLain will have a great many laughs together.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Anything ToB functions on just ToB+PHB, if PHB doesn't count as a choice any number of books are useful.

Dread Necro will run on Heroes of Horror+Libris Mortis.

Beguiler off PHB 2+Scoundrel.

Factotum.

Oh, there's always DMM Persist Cleric sans nightsticks.

[Glimbur]

Magic Item Compendium has some love for everybody. You could Cleric or Druid with MiC and Spell Compendium.

You could build an Incarnum character with Magic of Incarnum and... MiC? ToB? I'm not sure what other book you would want there.

Swift Hunter could work, but that's both books for C Adv and C Scound, which means no MiC which is sad.

What kind of character do you like to play?

[Amphetryon]

In before Druid 20.

If you prefer, Shifter Druid/Moonspeaker is nifty.

[metabolicjosh]

What kind of character do you like to play?

Hmmm.... I like a caster feel without the godly power.

[andromax]

I like a caster feel without the godly power.

Theres always the Psion, my fav. You could make a pretty rowdy tier 2 with just the XPH and Complete Psi. Not sure what the arbitrary exclusion of "wizard and sorc" is supposed to accomplish unless it is a poorly implemented restriction to tier 3 and below.

[metabolicjosh]

Not sure what the arbitrary exclusion of "wizard and sorc" is supposed to accomplish unless it is a poorly implemented restriction to tier 3 and below.

Well I have been known to make really strong and insane wizards, and then there is my At-Will Fire Sorcerer. So I (only me) am banned from those classes. I'm just good with spell combos... and so i want help with weaker tiered stuff... Thanks!

[Twilightwyrm]

I know this may be somewhat against the spirit of the "no wizards or sorcerers" party, but Druid with PBH and MM I, or Cleric with PBH and Complete Divine.

With that out of the way, like echoed before, any TOB+PHB combination works. One consequence of a lack of TOB support from other books is that they are great classes pretty much on their own, without anything but PBH for Weapon Finesse and Power Attack (and armor and weapon stats).

Dragonfire Adept with Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon can work fairly well, as the only feat you really need is Entangling Breath. All others are mostly extra.

[Urpriest]

It's kind of hard to get gear in this framework as well...it's very difficult to equip a character reasonably without the DMG. Can you clarify what the rules actually are in regards to book access?

[metabolicjosh]

I did clarify! I get two books. Simple as that, I don't have core and two books.

[Amphetryon]

I did clarify! I get two books. Simple as that, I don't have core and two books.

Then you're fundamentally restricted to PHb and DMG; otherwise you either won't be able to access basic Classes, Skills, Feats, and Spells, or you won't be able to access basic magic items.

[Gwendol]

And in that case I recommend druid.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I did clarify! I get two books. Simple as that, I don't have core and two books.

What level? If it's low level and you'll find/buy loot over the campaign then you're ok to drop DMG, otherwise ya you're 100% stuck in core and the best answer is two druid 20's.

Psion can drop PHB.

Oriental Adventures has it's own magic item section that features vanilla standbys like magic weapons and armor and enhancement bonus to stats items so you could drop DMG to get OA.

[Urpriest]

Actually, now that I think about it, the Magic Item Compendium has rules for adding various basic bonuses to items. So Magic Item Compendium might be a better choice than DMG.

[Amphetryon]

What level? If it's low level and you'll find/buy loot over the campaign then you're ok to drop DMG, otherwise ya you're 100% stuck in core and the best answer is two druid 20's.

Psion can drop PHB.

Oriental Adventures has it's own magic item section that features vanilla standbys like magic weapons and armor and enhancement bonus to stats items so you could drop DMG to get OA.

Psion can only drop PHb if it needs NO Feats from Core and if it has no use for Core Skills.

[Silva Stormrage]

Honest question, if you don't select items in the beggining is it impossible to BUY any items that aren't in the selected books? Could you start with your WBL in pure coins. Start in a town and then buy everything you need? Might be worth it for the more mundane items like +x stat or cloaks of resistances.

[Juntao112]

And in that case I recommend druid.

But without the Monster Manual...

[Gwendol]

Bring it up with the DM. The SRD is freely available online and those animals should cover the basics. I hereby assume that the DM has access to core, or else he'll be having a very hard time ahead.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Psion can only drop PHb if it needs NO Feats from Core and if it has no use for Core Skills.

No Feats is easy, no skills may seem a bit contrived but you could live with it.

Autohypnosis
Concentration (relisted in XPH with a full description)
Knowledge Psionics
Psicraft
Use Psionic Device

You'll need a non PHB race too, Elan seems to fit with -2 CHA and the general fluff supporting playering a crazy hermit that interacts with everything by screaming "I'm Psychic!" which the skill restrictions are forcing upon you.

[Matticussama]

This seems like a very arbitrary limitation; as others have stated, you're pretty much locked into PH + DMG, or maybe PH + MiC. At the very least it should be PH + 2 books.

If your DM's problem is that you've been super casters in the past, this is one of the worst limitations they could put on you. Casters can break the game with PH + MM. Melee characters, however, need a large array of books to complete (and are still less world-shattering).

If there is absolutely no wiggle room, PH + ToB or ToB + DMG or MiC might be a good choice. Others have suggested Cleric/Druid, but that goes against the spirit of your DM's restrictions (even if it is extremely arbitrary). Building a solid Warblade, Crusader, or Swordsage gives you plenty of options, and allows you to be universally useful without stepping on too many toes like Wizards tend to do.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

But without the Monster Manual...

Well, not being able to access MM during character creation just means no Animal companion. Once your in world summons and wildshape should function.

You should even be able to summon an animal companion. The DM could attempt to be truly Banal about it, but accessing rules in game isn't the same as using a book to build a character. Could a class with turn undead use their class feature despite the turn undead table being in the PHB? If not can non PHB character's have HP, can they level?

Now that I think about it, has the OP double checked that 2 books includes core and even then if no PHB really means no PHB skills, rules etc rather than just no classes/feats. As is it seems like a rather trollish way of saying "core only" with the added fun of rejecting builds for using too many books.

[Amphetryon]

Well, not being able to access MM during character creation just means no Animal companion. Once your in world summons and wildshape should function.

You should even be able to summon an animal companion. The DM could attempt to be truly Banal about it, but accessing rules in game isn't the same as using a book to build a character. Could a class with turn undead use their class feature despite the turn undead table being in the PHB? If not can non PHB character's have HP, can they level?

Now that I think about it, has the OP double checked that 2 books includes core and even then if no PHB really means no PHB skills, rules etc rather than just no classes/feats. As is it seems like a rather trollish way of saying "core only" with the added fun of rejecting builds for using too many books.
How would you know what you Wildshaped into, or what your SNAs abilities were - let alone what your Animal Companion was aside from the minimal description in the PHb - without access to the Monster Manual?

[metabolicjosh]

Yes I can buy items in game with moderation.
And DM has full access.
Standard skills are assumed, I think...

[Urpriest]

Come to think of it, what about Ability Scores? Conditions? If you don't pick the DMG, presumably you can't be affected by conditions that are only defined in the DMG.

[Silva Stormrage]

Well honestly, I would assume anything specified in the class would be allowed. If you selected dread necromancer and not players handbook you could still cast animate dead because it is on the dread necromancer's spell list. Just like you can use spellcraft as well as it is on the dread necromancer's skill list.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How would you know what you Wildshaped into, or what your SNAs abilities were - let alone what your Animal Companion was aside from the minimal description in the PHb - without access to the Monster Manual?

Referencing a book in play is not the same as using it in your build. Otherwise you could argue for not having hp without the PHB, or be able to level, or suffer any conditions (well I suppose you could, but the DM would need to look them up for you) you also couldn't be disabled or die and without the DMG you can't be awarded XP.

If the explanation for the book restrictions was that the characters were grown in a lab I suppose you could be a druid that had never encountered a single creature ever, so no woldshape till you encounter creatures in game. Either way you can still start casting summons right off the bat and pray for an animal companion as soon as you have any down time.

All silly hypotheticals aside the OP's posted again and revealed that No PHB just means no classes/feats/spells. So pretty much all recommended class/book combo's will work.

Quick fixes to some of my recommendations:

Factotum: Dungeonscape+PHB
Dread Necromancer: Heroes of Horror + PHB should work
All Initiators: ToB+PHB
Psion: XPH and whatever.
Psiwarrior: XPH+PHB
Beguiler: PHB 2+PHB

[Coidzor]

Psion can only drop PHb if it needs NO Feats from Core and if it has no use for Core Skills.

You don't need a PHB for core skills, just a character sheet. :smalltongue:

Otherwise the DM needs to be replaced with an adorable cat from the internet.

[Silva Stormrage]

Referencing a book in play is not the same as using it in your build. Otherwise you could argue for not having hp without the PHB, or be able to level, or suffer any conditions (well I suppose you could, but the DM would need to look them up for you) you also couldn't be disabled or die and without the DMG you can't be awarded XP.

If the explanation for the book restrictions was that the characters were grown in a lab I suppose you could be a druid that had never encountered a single creature ever, so no woldshape till you encounter creatures in game. Either way you can still start casting summons right off the bat and pray for an animal companion as soon as you have any down time.

All silly hypotheticals aside the OP's posted again and revealed that No PHB just means no classes/feats/spells. So pretty much all recommended class/book combo's will work.

Quick fixes to some of my recommendations:

Factotum: Dungeonscape+PHB
Dread Necromancer: Heroes of Horror + PHB should work
All Initiators: ToB+PHB
Psion: XPH and whatever.
Psiwarrior: XPH+PHB
Beguiler: PHB 2+PHB

Honestly for Dread Necromnancer Libris Mortis will help more than PHB. Assuming you still get the spells that are on the spell list of the DN. Tomb Tainted Soul, Mother Cyst, Corpse Crafter Feats. You should be able to get enough feats from libris mortis to fill up any problems with not having core feats.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Honestly for Dread Necromnancer Libris Mortis will help more than PHB. Assuming you still get the spells that are on the spell list of the DN. Tomb Tainted Soul, Mother Cyst, Corpse Crafter Feats. You should be able to get enough feats from libris mortis to fill up any problems with not having core feats.

Agreed, I actually considered quoting you and saying if it worked that way Libris Mortis would be the second book for DN.

[Pickford]

Okay so I need 2 level 10 Heroes for a upcoming game. I can use 2 books for each one.

No wizards or sorcerers :(

Any builds or advice?

I'm amused by how many people didn't read the op and went ahead to suggest serious spellcasting classes/level 20 characters.

Level 10 eh?

Ok, Complete Warrior and PHBII (I'm assuming you meant 2 books in 'addition' to the base 3).

Harriet the Unhinged
Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 4
Human: Power Attack
1st: Cleave
3rd: Destructive Rage
6th: Intimidating Rage
9th: Great Cleave
FB1: Diehard
FB2: Supreme Cleave

Abilities:
Frenzy 2/day: For 3 + Con mod rounds +6 str, 1 extra attack in full attack action, -4 AC, suffer 2 points nonlethal damage per round (stacks with rage)
Rage 2/day: For 3 + Con mod rounds +4 str, +4 con, -2 AC, +2 morale bonus to will saves
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Can't be flanked.
Trap Sense +2
Fast Movement
Deathless Frenzy: Is not disabled at <0 hp while in frenzy, nor dies at -10 or less hp (while in frenzy). Still can die to massive damage/death effects.

Boris the Halfbaked
Fighter 10
Human: Shield Specialization
1st: Improved Shield Bash
1st: Agile Shield Fighter
2nd: Shield Ward
3rd: Shield Charge
4th: Weapon Focus (Shield)
6th: Shield Slam
6th: Weapon Specialization (Shield)
8th: Combat Expertise
9th: Shield Sling
10th: Improved Trip

Gear:
+1 Reflecting Returning Heavy Shield (The Captain America loadout)

I think you can see where this would go (assuming you have the books noted above)

[DMVerdandi]

But kicking hero??

Cleric of war and Heroism 5/Sacred exorcist 5
Alternate class features: Spontaneous domain casting (War)
Feats:Academic Priest, Holy Warrior, Item Familiar,smiting spell, Divine spontaneity(Heroism)

Get a cool weapon and kick much arse. Power up, and beat the ****e outta people.

Rider Kick people, be a hero.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'm amused by how many people didn't read the op and went ahead to suggest serious spellcasting classes/level 20 characters.

I'm amused that while being snarky about people suggesting casters to a professed caster loving player . . .


Well I have been known to make really strong and insane wizards, and then there is my At-Will Fire Sorcerer. So I (only me) am banned from those classes. I'm just good with spell combos... and so i want help with weaker tiered stuff... Thanks!

and level 20 builds when the only 20th level build I see recommended is Druid 20 (cause we couldn't possibly extrapolate Druid 10 being good from a recommendation of Druid 20) that you failed to read the OP's post saying that it is in fact two books, not core + 2.

There was a very silly conversation about whether that rule was truly asinine and would prevent item aquisition without DMG/MIC and whether you could have skills without PHB. Druid 20, aside from being a half joking stock response was a specific reaction to the most asinine version of "only 2 books" that would mean defacto core only where functional builds are what, Druid 20 and Horizon Tripper am I missing anything? The OP did in fact return to the thread with rules clarifications twice. The first time he clarified that it was not core+2.


I get two books. Simple as that, I don't have core and two books.

The second he cleared up the silly, can't access basic rules without taking PHB as a source issue.


Yes I can buy items in game with moderation.
And DM has full access.
Standard skills are assumed, I think...

Oh, OP my rant reminded me of Horizon Tripper solid Core only build. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

[Pickford]

The second he cleared up the silly, can't access basic rules without taking PHB as a source issue.

Ok, PHBII (which contains item costs and recommended builds for all the base classes, so it encompasses the entire PHB by default) and Complete Warrior for the frenzy lady, DMG for the fighter. No need to get snippy.