Game-breaking at high levels [PF]

[Reltzik]

I'm putting together a high level game (starting level something like 12 or 14). I've got a few ideas of game-breaking abilities that the PCs might have -- the normal things like flight, scrying, passwall, etc. But I also know that for every one I prepare for, the players will find ten that I didn't.

So I figured, why don't I ask here so that I can prepare for fifty more things than I would have otherwise? Then the player's'll find 500 ways to break the game, and that'll be AWESOME!

(Edit: Allowable material will be core, apg, ultimate combat, ultimate magic, and MAYBE race guide with case-by-case approval.)

[SowZ]

I'm putting together a high level game (starting level something like 12 or 14). I've got a few ideas of game-breaking abilities that the PCs might have -- the normal things like flight, scrying, passwall, etc. But I also know that for every one I prepare for, the players will find ten that I didn't.

So I figured, why don't I ask here so that I can prepare for fifty more things than I would have otherwise? Then the player's'll find 500 ways to break the game, and that'll be AWESOME!

(Edit: Allowable material will be core, apg, ultimate combat, ultimate magic, and MAYBE race guide with case-by-case approval.)

I always heavily limit teleportation and resurrection, (the later usually by removing raise dead spells entirely. But that's me.)

[SilverLeaf167]

Flight isn't really a gamebreaker at all. In fact, not having flight can break the game, especially for melee characters, as a huge number of monsters are airborne. Passwall isn't really gamebreaking at the level you get it; by then you shouldn't really even be relying for a single wall to be an insurmountable obstacle, the same way you should stop relying on chasms once the PCs get flight.

I have a sort of a "fix" for Teleport and Greater Teleport that removes the biggest gamebreaking property: you can no longer gain familiarity with a location through scrying. You only have any chance of successfully Teleporting if you've physically been there before. On the other hand, I also added a level 1 spell that allows you to "share" your own familiarity with a target or have a willing (truly willing, enchantments and unconsciousness etc. don't count) target share his familiarity with you. This leaves the interesting possibility of, for example, finding a traitor among the enemy's ranks in order to be able to Teleport there. Also, I gave Teleport a 1 minute casting time, so it isn't such an "out of jail free card" anymore. I left Dimension Door unchanged; thus the party can still potentially escape by Dimension Dooring to a nearby hidden position and then Teleporting from there, assuming they aren't found within 1 minute.

When it really matters and you don't think wasting spell slots is a big enough cost to balance out the benefit the PCs get, there are some spells that block Divinations.

The main point, however, is nerfing some of the stronger spells while preferably still keeping them useful, and having a friendly agreement with your players about not using the ones that are just innately gamebreaking (you should abide by the same rules as they do, though)

[Zanthy1]

Flight isn't really a gamebreaker at all. In fact, not having flight can break the game, especially for melee characters, as a huge number of monsters are airborne. Passwall isn't really gamebreaking at the level you get it; by then you shouldn't really even be relying for a single wall to be an insurmountable obstacle, the same way you should stop relying on chasms once the PCs get flight.

I have a sort of a "fix" for Teleport and Greater Teleport that removes the biggest gamebreaking property: you can no longer gain familiarity with a location through scrying. You only have any chance of successfully Teleporting if you've physically been there before. On the other hand, I also added a level 1 spell that allows you to "share" your own familiarity with a target or have a willing (truly willing, enchantments and unconsciousness etc. don't count) target share his familiarity with you. This leaves the interesting possibility of, for example, finding a traitor among the enemy's ranks in order to be able to Teleport there. Also, I gave Teleport a 1 minute casting time, so it isn't such an "out of jail free card" anymore. I left Dimension Door unchanged; thus the party can still potentially escape by Dimension Dooring to a nearby hidden position and then Teleporting from there, assuming they aren't found within 1 minute.

When it really matters and you don't think wasting spell slots is a big enough cost to balance out the benefit the PCs get, there are some spells that block Divinations.

The main point, however, is nerfing some of the stronger spells while preferably still keeping them useful, and having a friendly agreement with your players about not using the ones that are just innately gamebreaking (you should abide by the same rules as they do, though)

I really like the idea for teleportation, making the casting time 1 minute. That makes it really a much cooler roleplay aspect. Trying to teleport away? "Guys, hold off those baddies for a minute while I prepare this spell" seems pretty cool

[JeenLeen]

I've only played low-level Pathfinder, but I'd say like in D&D, look out for spells that allow too much crowd-control. What Grease and Entangle are for level 1... figure out what the equivalents are for your level of play.




I have a sort of a "fix" for Teleport and Greater Teleport that removes the biggest gamebreaking property: you can no longer gain familiarity with a location through scrying. You only have any chance of successfully Teleporting if you've physically been there before. On the other hand, I also added a level 1 spell that allows you to "share" your own familiarity with a target or have a willing (truly willing, enchantments and unconsciousness etc. don't count) target share his familiarity with you. This leaves the interesting possibility of, for example, finding a traitor among the enemy's ranks in order to be able to Teleport there. Also, I gave Teleport a 1 minute casting time, so it isn't such an "out of jail free card" anymore. I left Dimension Door unchanged; thus the party can still potentially escape by Dimension Dooring to a nearby hidden position and then Teleporting from there, assuming they aren't found within 1 minute.



Another teleport fix I've seen (in the webcomic Another Gaming comic, http://agc.deskslave.org/) is giving teleport spells, besides Dimension Door, a cool-down time. It was done to eliminate scry & die tactics. The above also prevents it, and I actually like it more, but this would be another method you could consider.

[mjlush]

I really like the idea for teleportation, making the casting time 1 minute. That makes it really a much cooler roleplay aspect. Trying to teleport away? "Guys, hold off those baddies for a minute while I prepare this spell" seems pretty cool

Not so sure about that

1 minute = 10 rounds of combat. I would budget at least 2 minutes per player and lets say an utter minimum of 3 minutes to roll for the baddies. Assuming 4 players doing the holding off 11 minutes per round 110 minutes to do 10 rounds of combat

Would anyone in their right mind say

"Guys, hold off those baddies so I can sit I sit twiddling my thumbs for 2 hours of gaming time"

[RelentlessImp]

I like the way Tome handles teleportation effects; 40ft of contiguous, unbroken material blocks teleportation effects (let's not get into the problem of teleporting around the world that way). It blocks scry-n-die on your dungeons.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I never understood why people think teleport, scrying and similar spells are anywhere near broken. They just need some minimal preparation on the GM's part. It's like having enemies wear armor to not get hit by the fighter's attacks, except the usual countermeasures against teleport and scrying are cheaper and less math-intensive than a suit of magical armor. Not to mention they can help make the plot better.
1) It's a touch-range spell. Making unarmed touch attacks provokes AoOs even if casting defensively. So to take the entire party with you requires you a) delay for them to all move in touch range, b) avoid AoOs or readied actions from enemies that realize what you're doing, c) see below for complications.
2) A dark dungeon/building interior can be scried but unless the caster has darkvision that isn't an emanation, he won't get any useful image at all. And most dungeons are dark.
A dungeon/building interior shrouded in fog (decanter of endless water + permanent wall of fire is the best way to produce the shroud, but other methods exist) cannot be usefully scried.
A dungeon lined with lead cannot be scried.
3) Hallow (or Unhallow) with Dimensional Anchor tied to it defeats any and all attempts of dimensional travel short of Wish or Miracle. The defense lasts a year and cannot be dispelled.
4) Teleport Trap is a good way to send this pesky scry-and-die wizard right onto the room with the pressure plate trap that collapses the ceiling - or equally lethal situations with no save allowed.
5) PCs using teleport to escape a fight very often leave behind enemies that a) proved stronger than them, b) know some of the PCs' abilities, c) know the PCs' faces and d) have a vested interest in hunting the PCs down themselves.

Passwall is a nonissue. Yes yes, it can open a path through a wall. Do remember however that a steel wall a foot thick has only 360 HP and is pretty much an autohit. A fighter with Power Attack and a magic weapon can open it up in 3-4 rounds at that level, hardness or no. He can do the same to a stone wall 5 feet thick, too. And if he actually has feats that would help with breaking objects? Breaking city walls is easy for most PCs at that level. Digging through a mountain-side is only moderately time-consuming. So why would the party even need the wizard to spend a precious spell slot at that?

Flight is a problem if you want to rely on terrain as a challenge. Against creatures, consider the high-level threats; Angels, Archons, Dragons, Demons, Devils, Intelligent Undead with spellcasting and so on and so forth. The party will pretty much have to rely on flying against such enemies - unless you want every fight to end with a retreat from the bad guys to wait until the party's buffs have run out then a comeback 10 minutes later to hit them while they're unbuffed.

[DrDeth]

Master Summoner.

And, altho it’s not super powerful, the Synthesist requires a LOT of work on the part of the DM. The math WILL be wrong. Read all the FAQ and most of the threads on the PF boards.

T-port or D-door combined with Rod of Quicken, so the mage Novas, burns everything in one encounter, they then leave, rest, repeat. AKA the 1 minute adventuring day.

[Urpriest]

I like the way Tome handles teleportation effects; 40ft of contiguous, unbroken material blocks teleportation effects (let's not get into the problem of teleporting around the world that way). It blocks scry-n-die on your dungeons.

Unless they worded it differently, that shouldn't do anything. The Astral Plane has very little contiguous, unbroken material, and the chances that it's in your way are miniscule.

Anyway, teleportation is expected at this level. Remember that a lot of iconic foes at this point can teleport at-will, it will be hard to impossible for the party to match that.

You should decide what you think a fair price for a Wish is. Can Planar Binding get you Wishes for free? Can Planar Ally get you Wishes at a cost? Or will the players have to scrounge up several metamagic rods worth of cash for each Wish?

[Reltzik]

I didn't mean game-breaking as in makes the game unplayable (though I'd appreciate warning about those), just as in ruining my evil DM plans if my plans don't account for it.

Let's see, notes to self...

1) Peruse stats, rules, monsters, and errata carefully.
2) Carefully read through the spell lists and consider the effects of each spell. Consider situations where they break my plans, and some low-level effects (such as darkness) than can preserve those plans. (I can rules-lawyer a wish better than anyone I know, btw.)
3) Designate roughly 1/4th of the wall sections in my dungeons as load-bearing, and require rolls, grapple checks, etc to stop the barbarian without knowledge (architecture and engineering) from doing something impulsive.

[Gnaeus]

I never understood why people think teleport, scrying and similar spells are anywhere near broken. They just need some minimal preparation on the GM's part.

Very much this. Characters in their teen levels are virtually demigods. They don't need to bother with random encounters by bandits. If you DO want them to have overland wilderness adventures, you can solve this in several ways. For example:

Instead of a specific location they are going to, give them directions. Like: To find the tomb of Grimwald the Old, depart from the city of splendor going sunward for 3 days. Then follow Aelwyns star for a week, then south for 2 days. Follow the constellation of the ogre for 3 days, then go to the base of the mountain. Try teleporting to that!!

Alternately, make them follow something. For example, the enemy big bad is protected by mind blank. But his golems have a secret command word that makes them go home. To find the home, learn the command word (subquest) then follow the golem.

This little bit of craftsmanship on your part will please characters way more than "you can't teleport". Teleport is still a good spell fot them (they can use it to get to the starting point for example, or to return home.) but you have built the adventure around it.