Build Critique: Dex-based melee [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Telonius

2013-03-03, 11:38 AM

The concept is a Catfolk who fights with two weapons, but is sturdy enough to wade into the middle of combat. (Due to Shadow Blade, the weapons are likely going to be shortswords). Important build goals are to be at least somewhat useful from 1-19, gain as many attacks (and sneak attacks) as possible, keep BAB and HP high enough to serve as a front-line fighter. Assumptions: fractional BAB, no level buy-off, no multiclass penalty, you cannot qualify for Shadow Blade through stances, Swordsage "discipline focus" does not count for feat prerequisites, "x6 at first level" is a typo.

So, does this sound solid? In particular I'm looking at the maneuvers. Stances don't much matter after level 10 (since I'll be in Island of Blades or Assassin's Stance for the rest of the time after that), but are those maneuvers the best I can get? Also ... those six levels of Fighter. I hate to have that many, but Shadow Blade and the TWF tree gets delayed unless they're there. Unless there's some other way of fitting in some of those feats that I've completely forgotten about?

Race: Catfolk
Rogue2/Fighter6/Swordsage2/Warblade9

Stats (before racial adjustments):
25 pointbuy: 8/18/10/12/11/8
28 pointbuy: 8/18/12/12/12/8
32 pointbuy: 8/18/14/14/12/8
36 pointbuy: 8/18/14/16/12/8

Levels, Feats, and class features
1 Rogue1 Feat: Craven. Sneak +1d6, Trapfinding.
2 Rogue2 Evasion
3 Fighter1 Feat: Weapon Finesse. Fighter Feat: TWF
4 Fighter2 Fighter Feat: Catfolk Pounce
5 Fighter3
6 Fighter4 Feat: Staggering Strike. Fighter Feat: Combat Reflexes
7 Fighter5
8 Fighter6 Fighter Feat: Improved TWF
9 Swordsage1 Feat: Shadow Blade. Bonus: Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand – dagger, short sword, unarmed, sai, siangham, spiked chain)
10 Swordsage2 +Wis to AC in light armor
11 Warblade1. +Int to Reflex when not flat-footed
12 Warblade2 Feat: Greater TWF. Uncanny Dodge
13 War3 +Int to crit confirm
14 War4
15 War5 Feat: Adaptive Style. Warblade bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
16 War6 Improved Uncanny Dodge
17 War7 +Int to damage vs flat-footed or flanked enemies
18 War8 Feat: Mage Slayer
19 War9 Warblade bonus Feat: Blind-Fight

Stances and Maneuvers
9 Swd1 (initiator5, max level 3). Stance: Island of Blades (SH1). Maneuvers: Clinging Shadow Strike (SH2, lvl1, Strike), Cloak of Deception (SH3, lvl2, Boost), Drain Vitality (SH4, lvl2, Strike), Shadow Jaunt (SH5, lvl2, Other), Strength Draining Strike (SH6, lvl3, Strike), Claw at the Moon (TC1, Lvl2, Strike)
10 Swd2 (in6, max3). Stance: Assassin’s Stance (SH7). Maneuver: Soaring Raptor Strike (TC2, Lvl3, Strike)
11War1 (in6, max3) Stance: Maneuvers: Wall of Blades (IH1, lvl2, Counter), Iron Heart Surge (IH2, lvl3, Counter), Flesh Ripper (TC3, Lvl3, Strike).
12 War2 (in7, max4) Maneuver: Mithral Tornado (IH3, lvl4, strike)
13 War3 (in8, max4) Maneuver: Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM1, lvl1, strike)
14 War4 (in9, max5) Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance (TC4)
15 War5 (in10, max5) Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose (TC5, lvl5, strike)
16 War6 (in11, max6)
17 War7 (in12, max6) Maneuver: Iron Heart Endurance (IH4, lvl6, boost)
18 War8 (in13, max7)
19 War9 (in14, max7) Maneuver: Swooping Dragon Strike (TC6, lvl7, strike)

Weapons: Two shortswords
Armor: Mithril Breastplate
Important skills: Jump (for Tiger Claw), Tumble (for battlefield movement), UMD (because UMD).

Telonius

2013-03-03, 08:34 PM

Bumping ... 9 hours later, no suggestions? Have I really made the ideal Dex Fighter build? :smallbiggrin:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-03, 08:45 PM

Elf makes a surprisingly good Dex-based fighter because of the Champion of Corellon Larethian prestige class adding Dexterity to Damage (and to any weapon, not just Shadow Hand ones).

Telonius

2013-03-03, 09:00 PM

Four-feat tax, though; and it's from a specific list of weapons, none of which are light (for TWF'ing).

EDIT: Only one of which is light - Elven Lightblade. Proficiency in the Lightblade doesn't count towards qualifying for the class, which would make it a five-feat tax.

Gnome Alone

2013-03-03, 09:06 PM

no suggestions? Have I really made the ideal Dex Fighter build? :smallbiggrin:
Not that I'm a giant of optimizing or anything, but it does seem hella cool. Already kinda wanted to make a Catfolk with Shadow Blade.

avr

2013-03-03, 09:15 PM

With the sneak attack fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) and feat rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variants in UA, you could get by with fighter 1 / rogue 6 which leads to a better rounded character IMO.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-03, 10:49 PM

Yogibear41

2013-03-03, 10:53 PM

There is a feat that lets you TWF with heavier weapons Oversized two-weapon fighting in complete adventurer lets you use one handed weapons as light weapons in your off hand.

avr

2013-03-03, 11:27 PM

Further to my suggestion above - Ranger 2 / sneak attack thug Fighter 1 / feat rogue 1 / Crusader 1 / feat Rogue +3 has the same or better BAB for the first 8 levels (one less once you add swordsage levels on to it), better skills, one favored enemy, the martial spirit stance (handy for TWF sometimes) and a bunch of 1st-2nd level crusader maneuvers. If you prefer you could switch Crusader for Barbarian with the Spirit Lion totem and get pounce.

Vaz

2013-03-04, 06:17 AM

Elf makes a surprisingly good Dex-based fighter because of the Champion of Corellon Larethian prestige class adding Dexterity to Damage (and to any weapon, not just Shadow Hand ones).

Any race can qualify for CoCL with a 1 level dip. Admittedly, it does nothing more than advance casting at that level, but still.

Gwendol

2013-03-04, 07:30 AM

Using swashbuckler instead of fighter does nothing to feats but forcing you to drop one (unless I'm mistaken) in favor of daring outlaw, but you will get more sneak attack damage die, and you get insightful strike (int to damage) more generally and a whole lot earlier. I suggest dropping one of the TWF feats.
Also, I second Avr's suggestions rather than the rogue 2/fighter 6.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-03-04, 08:31 AM

Any race can qualify for CoCL with a 1 level dip. Admittedly, it does nothing more than advance casting at that level, but still.

And how can any race fulfill the "Requirement: Elf or Half-elf"? There's no elven equivalent to Stoneblessed.

EDIT: Open mouth, insert foot. Hello, changelings.

Medic!

2013-03-04, 08:59 AM

Couldn't you drop the Improved TWF and replace it with Gloves of the Balanced Hand from MIC?

Then, obv, find some kind and gentle soul to cast a permanent Divine Agility on you :smallamused:

Seharvepernfan

2013-03-04, 09:47 AM

Why aren't you just going full swordsage? I am probably missing something.

Telonius

2013-03-04, 08:36 PM

Why aren't you just going full swordsage? I am probably missing something.

I'm attempting to build it as more of a front-line combatant. Full swordsage would have less HP and BAB; basically, not as sturdy and wouldn't hit quite as often. (By the assumptions, it also wouldn't qualify for Craven without at least a one-level dip of Rogue or something else with Sneak Attack). I want to have access to the full TWF tree if possible - the more attacks with the bonus sneak attack damage from Craven, the better - and higher damage from Craven makes it somewhat good at battlefield control when Staggering Strike is taken into account. I'm pretty sure a full Swordsage would just be too feat-starved to do all that. (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Craven, Staggering Strike would take up all of the available feats, meaning the build wouldn't fully "turn on" until level 18, and you wouldn't have assorted goodies like Adaptive Strike and Combat Reflexes).