Malack vs. Xykon

[Tragak]

How this this go? (I forgot how powerful Xykon is HOW?)

Update. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14819300#post14819300)

[Raineh Daze]

Unless something major is up Malack's sleeve, this one's pretty much a foregone conclusion. Epic caster against non-epic vampire caster? No contest.

[Morty]

Agreed. Malack is non-epic as far as we know. Xyon is well into epic levels. We have no reason to believe he wouldn't crush Malack.

[FujinAkari]

The only real question is whether Xykon will bother to properly destroy him or will he drop him to gaseous form in a round or two and then decide its too much trouble to destroy him.

[Gift Jeraff]

The only real question is whether Xykon will bother to properly destroy him or will he drop him to gaseous form in a round or two and then decide its too much trouble to destroy him.

I think he'd decide it'd be funnier if he kept coming back to fail.

[Raineh Daze]

I think he'd decide it'd be funnier if he kept coming back to fail.

At which point, Tarquin would probably have Xykon's whole spell list on hand, which could be... interesting. :smallamused:

[Tetsujin-28]

Xykon would beat him. He probably wouldn't even bother utterly destroying him.

[Winter]

How this this go?

Xykon would beat him in three rounds and then lock him in a transparent, gas-tight box and keep him as pet.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wonder, can one soul bind a gaseous, but non-destroyed vampire?

Regardless, the only way Malack is comparable to Xykon is in ECL. When it comes to actual power, Redcloak outclasses him.

[factotum]

Likelihood is that Malack is slightly lower level than Durkon (his vampire abilities have helped him out in the current fight); we know Redcloak is quite a bit higher level than Durkon, and we also know that pretty much every time the question comes up it's generally acknowledged that Xykon would defeat Redcloak in a straight fight. Malack, being much less powerful than Redcloak, would barely qualify as a speed bump if he tried to get in Xykon's way.

[Finagle]

There is NOBODY in the OOTS world that can defeat Xykon in a straight battle. Xykon, an NPC antagonist, has defeated Lirian, Dorukan, Roy, and Vaarsuvius, all PCs. Soon Kim beat Xykon, but only with the help of obscure rules from a splatbook.

[137beth]

There is NOBODY in the OOTS world that can defeat Xykon in a straight battle. Xykon, an NPC antagonist, has defeated Lirian, Dorukan, Roy, and Vaarsuvius, all PCs. Soon Kim beat Xykon, but only with the help of obscure rules from a splatbook.

Agreed. Outside of the gods/extraplaner beings/the snarl, Xykon is the most powerful character in the world.

[Tragak]

Thanks for the feedback so far; better question: how long would Malack last?

[Grogmir]

Thanks for the feedback so far; better question: how long would Malack last?

He'll waste the first round trying to Energy Drain him. And win in 1 or 2.

So 2 or 3 most likely.

Dude is friggin' scary.

[hamishspence]

Malack's an undead- he'd know other undead are immune to Energy Drain- and wouldn't waste time trying.

[Raineh Daze]

Malack's an undead- he'd know other undead are immune to Energy Drain- and wouldn't waste time trying.

He has to work out he's fighting an undead first. What do you think his ranks are in Knowledge (Religion)?

[Grogmir]

Malack's an undead- he'd know other undead are immune to Energy Drain- and wouldn't waste time trying.

X doesn't know he's undead though. The order didn't know. E'ck Durkon didn't know until he saw him eating Belkar and he sat for hours near him having Bloodwart tea and Durkon hates undead.

And X's much more of "Blast them with ED, and if that doesn't work think of something else" kinda guy.

[hamishspence]

He'll waste the first round trying to Energy Drain him.

I thought you were talking about Malack doing the Drain, for a moment, when you said that.

[Grogmir]

I thought you were talking about Malack doing the Drain, for a moment, when you said that.

Ahh. Na. Xykon. Not considered Malacks actions at all as I consider them inconsequential to the result. He might do something that delays it for a round or two. But would be over pretty quickly imo

Malack has a frail condition. But also Vamps get pretty decent HD, fast healing and all the racial HD too. So I'm not sure how that equals out.
Possible X could take him with one large spell, always possible that M is quite hard to take down. Due to high HP and FH.

But result? Malack in round 3 would be where I put my money.

Unless you're talking actual in comic. Then it'll be longer. Cause, the story is more important and rules over all.

[TRH]

Hmm. Malack's only real trump card in such a situation would be his mad grapple skills. However, Xykon has Still casting, so trying to grapple would risk eating a Meteor Swarm. You can use a Still spell while grappling, right?

[hamishspence]

That's what Xykon appears to be doing here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

[Grogmir]

Hmm. Malack's only real trump card in such a situation would be his mad grapple skills. However, Xykon has Still casting, so trying to grapple would risk eating a Meteor Swarm. You can use a Still spell while grappling, right?

There's also the "paralyzing touch" (That right?) of the Lich to consider as well. Evil V was using a spell. Malack... not sure much.

[hamishspence]

There's also the "paralyzing touch" (That right?) of the Lich to consider as well.

That only works on living creatures:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Paralyzing Touch (Su)
Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

[TRH]

There's also the "paralyzing touch" (That right?) of the Lich to consider as well. Evil V was using a spell. Malack... not sure much.

Would that work on an undead? I wouldn't expect you to be able to paralyze an undead.

Edit: Ninja'd with an answer. That settles that, then.

[Felyndiira]

Xykon being an epic-level undead pretty much takes out most of Malack's death spells and vampire abilities. He has plenty of evocation spells that could affect Malack such as meteor swarm (112 damage on average, maximize for 192 damage - that's probably all of Malack's HP). Finally,

Start of Darkness Spoilershe has magic items that confer protection against both positive energy and fire, which - assuming Malack is a PHB only cleric - robs him of pretty much all of his offense. Sound Lance could only carry you so far.

X will waste some spells on Energy Drain, that's for sure, but Malack would not be able to do much of a thing against X by himself.

[Grogmir]

That only works on living creatures:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Considered and rejected darn quickly. Thanks.

Still Grappling still not an option imo, he's got still spell and aint afraid to use it.

[Stormlock]

Given Xykon's generally incompetence and lack of Knowledge: Religion (and thus undead) he'd probably not even realize Malack was a vampire at first, and might waste a round or two screwing something up besides.

Technically speaking, by the rules, Malack could probably **** Xykon up by grappling him. Xykon has no way to escape a grapple that we know of (his stilled meteor swarm while grappling thing is bull****- you can't do that as a sorceror without some crazy epic feats even Xykon isn't in range of) and between the snakiness and +6 str mod (+2 more from lizardfolk?) Malack crushes him in the Str department, and has clerical buffs to his attack roll besides, which helps too. And a swarm of vampiric slaves, dominated minions, and hundreds of temporary hp from drained levels and Con helping him in the grapple dogpile wouldn't hurt either.

But if they were both played in a halfway competent manner, yeah, Xykon would utterly crush Malack. Ghostform in particular would give him a lot of trouble, voiding the grapple threat. And unless Xykon is prone to failing his reflex saves, even a full arsenal of Flamestrike (Probably what, 7 castings? I suppose an arbitrary amount with scrolls though) might not take down Xykon, while a handful of meteor swarms would certainly take out Malack, even with resist fire cast. Barring the temporary hp cheese thing, which I'd probably call bull**** on as a DM myself past an extra ~50 hp or so. With the hp cheese and enough flamestrikes to take down Xykon, Malack would actually be the winner. But then if Xykon has scrolls of anything useful vs Malack, he's pretty much got a free win. Superb Dispelling + Sunburst would autodestroy Malack if he fails his saving throw regardless of hp total.

Of course, in the end what things REALLY boil down to in a fight between casters is summoned monsters. An 18th level caster (Any Xykon is 21 at the very least) could summon and utterly control one of THESE for example, with a Gate spell: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane

Yeah. That thing would destroy every character that has appeared in this strip so far combined, and it wouldn't even take any damage while doing it.

[Shred-Bot]

He'll waste the first round trying to Energy Drain him. And win in 1 or 2.

So 2 or 3 most likely.

Dude is friggin' scary.

Yeah... I could definitely see him energy draining during round 1, to no effect, then Redcloak shouting "Xykon! Negative energy heals undead! You should know, you are one!" And then some meteor swarms.

Malack doesn't really have much other than heal that could make a serious dent in Xykon. He could harm himself every round to delay the inevitable, I guess, but he'll run out of those before Xykon runs out of meteor swarms (never mind spell levels 1-8).

Dude is friggin' scary indeed.

[hamishspence]

you can't do that as a sorceror without some crazy epic feats even Xykon isn't in range of)
Xykon's got the feats to cast stilled 9th level spells. Even maximised 9th level spells. Because we see him do it.

[Felyndiira]

Xykon has no way to escape a grapple that we know of (his stilled meteor swarm while grappling thing is bull****- you can't do that as a sorceror without some crazy epic feats even Xykon isn't in range of) and between the snakiness and +6 str mod (+2 more from lizardfolk?) Malack crushes him in the Str department, and has clerical buffs to his attack roll besides, which helps too. And a swarm of vampiric slaves, dominated minions, and hundreds of temporary hp from drained levels and Con helping him in the grapple dogpile wouldn't hurt either.

Stilled meteor swarm is something that Xykon has been shown to do in the past (against a bigby's crushing hand, at that, which is much more STR than Malack could offer). We know that Xykon has 13th level spells from Maximize Energy Drain, so calling still BS on meteor swarm would contradict the in-comic demonstration that X had taken improved spell capacity at least three times.

Swarms of vampiric slaves and dominated minions are likely not that high of a HD in the first place, or are not casters that are worth any consideration. They are also not things that Malack is expected to have with him at all times (especially the HD) in the same vein as Xykon not always fighting with swarms of animated ghouls at his side. Malack himself has pretty much no way of doing damage on Xykon other than physical attacks - Heal does not work, negative energy and death effects do not work, Xykon is too high-leveled to rebuke or command, etc.

Being one-shotted by meteor swarm is a pretty big weakness, on the other hand, seeing that it's Xykon's other favorite blasty spell to be used against high-level adventurers. Xy, being a sorcerer, has plenty of 9-13 level spell slots for when he figures out energy drain does not work against Malack.

[Stormlock]

We've also seen Belkar attack 8 times in one round. Doesn't mean he's level 20.

The feats Xykon would require to do that would put him at Sorceror: 27. If he was a level 27 sorceror, there wouldn't be a comic because he'd just be casting Wish every single time instead of any other spell ever. Also, all his spells would be stilled. Because Automatic Still Spell is the only way to cast in a grapple as a sorceror, aside from verbal only spells, and to get it to work on Meteor Swarm, he'd need to take the feat 3 times so it hits levels 1-9.

(Quickening spells is also bull****, he needs automatic quicken spell to do that, which you can't even get once until level 26, so it'd push his level even higher to have that AND the still spells)

[hamishspence]

Sorcerers can use metamagic feats, it just takes them longer.

Xykon may simply have not taken Wish as one of his 9th level spells known.

There's also various ways for Sorcerers to quicken spells- a feat, an alternate class feature replacing Familiar, etc.

[skaddix]

Xykon likes having fun. There is no fun in using Wish for auto wins.

If he has Wish then he probably saves it as his Final Trump Card.

[Procyonpi]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm kinda tempted to start as "That Guy With a Halberd vs Xykon" thread. He'd have about the same chance as Malack.

[Grogmir]

The feats Xykon would require to do that would put him at Sorceror: 27. If he was a level 27 sorceror, there wouldn't be a comic because he'd just be casting Wish every single time instead of any other spell ever.

Maybe thats why he didn't choose it as a 9th level spell?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

And to paraphrase the giant very recently. "If you're looking for perfect DnD tactics you're in the wrong place. I'm looking to tell a story"

As for your metamagic feat. I cannot discuss cause don't know the rules well enough. But seems like you're arguing against something we've seen him do in the comic.

[hamishspence]

Because Automatic Still Spell is the only way to cast in a grapple as a sorceror, aside from verbal only spells, and to get it to work on Meteor Swarm, he'd need to take the feat 3 times so it hits levels 1-9.

On rechecking the geekery thread:


Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell makes the spell take a full-round action. One can't take full-round actions in grapple, which Xykon was when he cast Still Meteor Swarm.

so Still spell on its own wouldn't work. However, there are other ways.

[Grogmir]

On rechecking the geekery thread:

so Still spell on its own wouldn't work. However, there are other ways.

Interesting Hamish... So Bugbys Hand was another effect other than a grapple?

Or more likely The Giant just didn't check the Metamagic rules?

[hamishspence]

Not if it was Bigby's Crushing Hand under a different name.

However, Xykon may be able to use metamagic somehow without increasing the casting time.

[Stormlock]

Fullround actions can't be used in a grapple. Which is why you can't still a metamagic spell in a grapple.

It's entirely obvious that this is just an oversight of the complex grappling rules, I don't know why people try to rationalize it by turning Xykon into some sort of 40th level caster with feats and artifacts to do everything that still casts stuff like maximised chain lightning.

A level 25+ sorceror has so much xp he could cast wish to replace pretty much any spell under level 9 and never notice the missing xp. It'd ignore all the somatic and material components, and bypass the one weakness a sorceror has- spell knowledge. A 20th level sorceror with no bonus spells from feats or cha or anything else can do this 6 times a day, as a verbal only spell:

-Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
-Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

AKA HE IS A GOD. He can heal himself to full with Heal/Harm. Freedom of Movement to be immune to grapples. He can cast Greater Teleport with a single word. He can resurrect the dead. He can boost every single one of his stats by +5 with wish enhancement bonuses. And since sorcerors can replace spells every 2nd level, not taking this by the time you're level 26 would be insane, akin to just toggling your spell knowledge of magic missile and burning hands back and forth for a dozen levels instead of learning anything new.

The only logical concclusion is that Rich fudges grapple rules (*gasp* what a monster!) and Xykon is actually level 21, and doesn't know wish since he'd rather not burn through all his xp.

[hamishspence]

A level 25+ sorceror has so much xp he could cast wish to replace pretty much any spell under level 9 and never notice the missing xp. It'd ignore all the somatic and material components, and bypass the one weakness a sorceror has- spell knowledge. A 20th level sorceror with no bonus spells from feats or cha or anything else can do this 6 times a day, as a verbal only spell:

-Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
-Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

AKA HE IS A GOD.

As was pointed out:


Maybe thats why he didn't choose it as a 9th level spell?

O-chul lists Xykon as only having the following 3 9th level spells- Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm, Soul Bind:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

[Grogmir]

Fullround actions can't be used in a grapple. Which is why you can't still a metamagic spell in a grapple.

It's entirely obvious that this is just an oversight of the complex grappling rules...
The only logical concclusion is that Rich fudges grapple rules (*gasp* what a monster!) and Xykon is actually level 21, and doesn't know wish since he'd rather not burn through all his xp.

Don't think anyone in this thread is making him into a level 40 god and think you've explained it yourself. Rich just doesn't know / care that metamagic cant be used in a grapple.

Even being "only" level 21 doesn't mean he cant take Malack in a few rounds though.

[hamishspence]

The big question is how he uses Maximised energy drain- requires a 12th level spell slot. Or a well hidden Rod of Maximise. That stays hidden despite being used. (Maybe the Sudden Maximise Spell feat- which is noncore).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Rich just doesn't know / care that metamagic cant be used in a grapple.

Don't quote me on this, but I understand there is a particular sorcerer build that exchanges the familiar (which you'll note Xykon doesn't have) for some feat or something that does allow metamagic in grapple.

The details have been mentioned in Geekery a few times.

GW

[Felyndiira]

Fullround actions can't be used in a grapple. Which is why you can't still a metamagic spell in a grapple.

It's entirely obvious that this is just an oversight of the complex grappling rules, I don't know why people try to rationalize it by turning Xykon into some sort of 40th level caster with feats and artifacts to do everything that still casts stuff like maximised chain lightning.

A level 25+ sorceror has so much xp he could cast wish to replace pretty much any spell under level 9 and never notice the missing xp. It'd ignore all the somatic and material components, and bypass the one weakness a sorceror has- spell knowledge. A 20th level sorceror with no bonus spells from feats or cha or anything else can do this 6 times a day, as a verbal only spell:

-Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
-Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

AKA HE IS A GOD. He can heal himself to full with Heal/Harm. Freedom of Movement to be immune to grapples. He can cast Greater Teleport with a single word. He can resurrect the dead. He can boost every single one of his stats by +5 with wish enhancement bonuses. And since sorcerors can replace spells every 2nd level, not taking this by the time you're level 26 would be insane, akin to just toggling your spell knowledge of magic missile and burning hands back and forth for a dozen levels instead of learning anything new.

The only logical concclusion is that Rich fudges grapple rules (*gasp* what a monster!) and Xykon is actually level 21, and doesn't know wish since he'd rather not burn through all his xp.

I don't really know why you keep on arguing that he's level 21, though. It's pretty plainly obvious, in-comic, that he had at least casted a 13th level spell. Combine this with epic spellcasting, and he needs to have at least four epic feats at his disposal. This puts him at sorcerer level 26, by conservative estimations.

For the wish statement, there's two problems:
Xykon never had wish in his spell list to begin with. Sorcerers cannot just randomly cast a spell that they don't have, as much as they may have loved to do so. You can harp on the reasons why a sorcerer would not take such a powerful spell, although it's too late to fix it now - Xykon does not learn any more spells after sorcerer 20.
Having him bombing wishes to solve every problem would ruin OotS as a story. (There's also the problem that his EXP inflow is limited due to most of the people in the world being sub-epic levels. Thus, the 5000 XP he spends on casting wish does actually add up, unlike actual Epic campaigns where players are still facing level-appropriate threats.

For the still magic part, I know the giant doesn't usually use books other than core, but he has been shown to use splatbooks (or outright homebrew in some cases) here and there. Would it be too much of a stretch to assume that Xykon's feat isn't just all iron will and spell focus, but that he's also taken one of those complete series feats that are considered optimal for sorcerers (such a Rapid Metamagic) or a homebrew feat that does something similar?

It really does seem that your only argument is "Xykon doesn't use wish, therefore he could not be more than level 21!" This doesn't hold much water against the possibility that Xykon simply, due to being a mostly unoptimized sorcerer that cannot just go back and scribe new spells like a wizard can, simply never learned wish in the first place.

[hamishspence]

Don't quote me on this, but I understand there is a particular sorcerer build that exchanges the familiar (which you'll note Xykon doesn't have) for some feat or something that does allow metamagic in grapple.That would be the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature- p61 of Player's Handbook 2.

[zimmerwald1915]

Don't quote me on this, but I understand there is a particular sorcerer build that exchanges the familiar (which you'll note Xykon doesn't have) for some feat or something that does allow metamagic in grapple.

The details have been mentioned in Geekery a few times.

GW
The alternate class feature is called "Metamagic Specialist" and can be found on page 61 of the Player's Handbook II. You are correct that by giving up the ability to obtain a familiar, a sorcerer with this alternate class feature gains the ability to add metamagic to spells without increasing the casting time.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Brennan1214]

There is an ACF from the PHB2 that allows a sorcerer to use metamagic spotaneously without extra time, if the sorcerer has no familiar. Which Xykon doesn't.

EDIT: Double ninja'd. Second time in two days.

[zimmerwald1915]

There is an ACF from the PHB2 that allows a sorcerer to use metamagic spotaneously without extra time, if the sorcerer has no familiar. Which Xykon doesn't.
It's more exacting than that. The sorcerer must have given up his ability to obtain a familiar specifically to gain the ability to add metamagic to his spells without increasing the casting time. It's not just an ability all sorcerers without familiars have, so we can't conclude that Xykon has this ability solely from his lack of a familiar. Nor, since there are other ways of Xykon doing what we see, can we be sure he's using Metamagic Specialist, even though it's a personal favorite theory of mine.

[hamishspence]

It really does seem that your only argument is "Xykon doesn't use wish, therefore he could not be more than level 21!" This doesn't hold much water against the possibility that Xykon simply, due to being a mostly unoptimized sorcerer that cannot just go back and scribe new spells like a wizard can, simply never learned wish in the first place.
His argument is that Xykon would have at some point traded one of his three 9th level spells known for Wish.

[Grogmir]

Don't quote me on this, but I understand there is a particular sorcerer build that exchanges the familiar (which you'll note Xykon doesn't have) for some feat or something that does allow metamagic in grapple.

The details have been mentioned in Geekery a few times.

GW

Interesting. I'll have to try and read through that again sometime. Its all a bit above me tbh. Been years since I played 3.5 and never above about level 12 anyway.

So bringing it all back to point of this thread. Malack Vs Xykon.

Somehow, we're agreed that Malacks one advantage. Grappling, Probably wouldn't work. Cause Xykon (somehow) would just Meteor Strike him into Gas.

If this is too one sided. and the OP doesn't mind. A related question... Who do we think stands a better chance against X (on his own)

The current Linear Guild or The Order?

[Kish]

I do not believe "Xykon is level 21" and "Xykon knows Wish and is a god" represent an exhaustive list of the possibilities. Somehow.

[hamishspence]

Also, on rechecking PHB- the "swap spells at every even-numbered level" has a limitation- spell must be two levels lower than the highest level of spell you can cast.

So Xykon would need to be able to cast 11th level spells, to swap a 9th level spell for another 9th level spell.

[Felyndiira]

His argument is that Xykon would have at some point traded one of his three 9th level spells known for Wish.

That wouldn't really work either, since:


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast.

If Xykon has heighten spell and a 11th level slot, then we can possibly assume that he could cast 11th level spells and thus would be able to exchange a ninth level spell through cheese. Otherwise, the best that Xykon should be able to do would be to exchange seventh level spells, since the Sor/Wiz list caps out at level 9. Thus, limited wish would be a possibility, but not wish proper.

I mean, it's definitely possible that Xykon has heighten spell, but it's still an additional assumption that we have to make. Even then, the argument could simply be nulled by the fact that Xykon is not the most optimized caster ever, so there's a possibility that even with heighten shenanigans he never thought to obtain Wish (and ECL vs. opponent CL considerations, since Xykon doesn't exactly have an infinite influx of enemies at a CL that he could still earn experience from).

EDIT: Hamishspence, didn't know you are a ninja, too :smalltongue:.

(Also, just having level 11 slots and epic spellcasting together would put Xykon squarely at level 24, unless if he managed to get epic feats from some other source that we're not aware of.)

[zimmerwald1915]

So Xykon would need to be able to cast 11th level spells, to swap a 9th level spell for another 9th level spell.
Given that there are no level 10 or level 11 spells, is this not another way of saying "Xykon cannot swap out his level 8 and 9 spells"?

[hamishspence]

And since sorcerors can replace spells every 2nd level, not taking this by the time you're level 26 would be insane, akin to just toggling your spell knowledge of magic missile and burning hands back and forth for a dozen levels instead of learning anything new.



If Xykon has heighten spell and a 11th level slot, then we can possibly assume that he could cast 11th level spells and thus would be able to exchange a ninth level spell through cheese.

I might allow just having the 11th level slot- but that still takes 2 feats, 1 for 10th level slot, one for 11th level slot. Add in that Epic Spellcasting was probably his first epic feat, and it's looking harder for him to trade high level spells.


Given that there are no level 10 or level 11 spells, is this not another way of saying "Xykon cannot swap out his level 8 and 9 spells"?
Maybe "can cast spells out of 11th level spell slots" would qualify, but I wouldn't be sure.

[Felyndiira]

I might allow just having the 11th level slot- but that still takes 2 feats, 1 for 10th level slot, one for 11th level slot. Add in that Epic Spellcasting was probably his first epic feat, and it's looking harder for him to trade high level spells.

Maybe "can cast spells out of 11th level spell slots" would qualify, but I wouldn't be sure.

It's not RAW, though, which is what Stormlock was arguing in the first place. You'd need to houserule (or fudge the rules a bit, in comic terms) in being able to trade 9th level spells without heighten magic, which comes out to be not much different than fudging the rules so that full-round spells with no somatic components can be cast within a grapple.

It's the big reason why versatile spellcaster is not adequate as an early entry tricks on a lot of the TO boards - a maximized energy drain is still a level 9 spell in the same way that a fireball prepared in a 7th level slot is still a level 3 spell. Heighten (and the early entry cheese metamagic - earth magic and sanctum spell) are the only ways to get a spell's level to actually be higher than the base spell.

Or just using something other than core, since there's both a feat (Rapid Metamagic, requires CL 12) and an ACF (Metamagic Specialist) that allows a sorcerer to apply metamagic as a standard action.

[hamishspence]

There's another feat that allows a sorcerer to prepare their spells ahead of time- in Complete Arcane- so yet another way around it.

[Lamech]

Meteor swarm will do very little to Malack if he stopped by the local orphanage before getting into the fight. 30 minutes or 300 rounds of energy drain will give him 3k or 4.5k hp depending on his vampire lord status.

[137beth]

Fullround actions can't be used in a grapple. Which is why you can't still a metamagic spell in a grapple.

It's entirely obvious that this is just an oversight of the complex grappling rules, I don't know why people try to rationalize it by turning Xykon into some sort of 40th level caster with feats and artifacts to do everything that still casts stuff like maximised chain lightning.

A level 25+ sorceror has so much xp he could cast wish to replace pretty much any spell under level 9 and never notice the missing xp. It'd ignore all the somatic and material components, and bypass the one weakness a sorceror has- spell knowledge. A 20th level sorceror with no bonus spells from feats or cha or anything else can do this 6 times a day, as a verbal only spell:

-Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
-Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

AKA HE IS A GOD. He can heal himself to full with Heal/Harm. Freedom of Movement to be immune to grapples. He can cast Greater Teleport with a single word. He can resurrect the dead. He can boost every single one of his stats by +5 with wish enhancement bonuses. And since sorcerors can replace spells every 2nd level, not taking this by the time you're level 26 would be insane, akin to just toggling your spell knowledge of magic missile and burning hands back and forth for a dozen levels instead of learning anything new.

The only logical concclusion is that Rich fudges grapple rules (*gasp* what a monster!) and Xykon is actually level 21, and doesn't know wish since he'd rather not burn through all his xp.
Okay, sorry, I have to respond to this, because this is not how most games go at epic levels. First, you are forgetting about magic items. WBL increases exponentially, so getting a few extra feats from magic items is not hard. Assuming he has a few more feats does not imply he is 10 levels higher, it just means he is using his WBL effectively (unlike his spell slots, which have a lot of suboptimal spells).
Also, where the heck are you getting the idea that epic casters never use anything but wish? If an epic sorcerer could solve something with a spell below ninth level, they are definitely not going to use wish to emulate that spell if they already have the spell in question. Now, I could see an argument that epic wizards should primarily prepare wishes to be ready for anything (which I don't think is accurate, since epic wizards can afford wands/scrolls with almost every nonepic spell in the game), but there is virtually no reason for a sorcerer to use a wish to emulate a lower level spell that they already have. Oh, and xp is actually pretty important in epic games--unlike gold, it does not explode exponentially. I'd be pretty cautious about spending 5000 xp for mundane tasks until around level 30. Which you seem to insist that Xykon is lower than.

[SaintRidley]

There's another feat that allows a sorcerer to prepare their spells ahead of time- in Complete Arcane- so yet another way around it.

Or the ever popular "That's a silly rule. Ignore it."

[Dark Matter]

Or the ever popular "That's a silly rule. Ignore it."Yeah, that's what I'd guess. It's non-intuitive that the feat which is supposed to let you cast spells while grappled doesn't let you cast spells while grappled.


The feats Xykon would require to do that would put him at Sorceror: 27.True.

Further, Xykon is throwing around Epic Spells which have a Spell Craft high enough that he needs a level of 27+ (which also requires more min-maxing than we normally see in this comic).

Still Further, the only item which grants energy immunity is an epic ring, we know Xykon has a crafting feat, and the level needed to make epic rings is 32+.

That three lines of reasoning, two of which are very strong, which put him at level 27+.

At some point you have to call a cigar a cigar.

[Raineh Daze]

Makes you wonder if the lack of Epic characters is because Xykon killed them all.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Where has Xykon been getting all his xp anyway? I also wonder what ungodly amount of xp he got for beating V while she was all doped up on souls.

[headhoncho]

Sudden Maximize (prerequisite: one other Sudden feat) from Complete Arcane also neatly takes care of the Maximized Energy Drain issue.

[Lamech]

Do the sudden feats even require a full round action from a sorcerer to casts?

[DoctorWhooves]

Makes you wonder if the lack of Epic characters is because Xykon killed them all.

That's been my theory since he was said to have "disappeared" every now and then.

[SaintRidley]

Do the sudden feats even require a full round action from a sorcerer to casts?

You would think they wouldn't, but a cursory glance didn't show me anything to say they don't.

[headhoncho]

You would think they wouldn't, but a cursory glance didn't show me anything to say they don't.

It's pretty standard practice around the gaming groups I know for Sorcerers to take the Rapid Metamagic feat, which gets rid of the full-round casting problem... about as commonly as a Druid takes Natural Spell (in other words, pretty much all the time).

[Dark Matter]

It's pretty standard practice around the gaming groups I know for Sorcerers to take the Rapid Metamagic feat, which gets rid of the full-round casting problem... about as commonly as a Druid takes Natural Spell (in other words, pretty much all the time).Interesting.


Do the sudden feats even require a full round action from a sorcerer to casts?We didn't see "Sudden Maximized" (etc), we saw "Maximized" (etc).

[Valley]

I think Xykon would win hands down. In fact, I am starting to miss him. It. Whatever.

[headhoncho]

We didn't see "Sudden Maximized" (etc), we saw "Maximized" (etc).

I think that's a fair observation, but unless we've seen examples of "Sudden" being used in the strip in other circumstances, it may just be that it's omitted for simplification.

[snikrept]

Were such a fight to occur, ultimately it would come down to the plot. Recall that Xykon beat the tar out of Splice!Vaarsuvius, despite S!V having access to a lot more raw power.

[skaddix]

Xykon got it from the Order of Scribble, V and Dragon Slaying. Maybe he did some plane shifting to get that sweet XP.

[137beth]

Makes you wonder if the lack of Epic characters is because Xykon killed them all.


Where has Xykon been getting all his xp anyway? I also wonder what ungodly amount of xp he got for beating V while she was all doped up on souls.

In most epic games I have played in, it is assumed that somewhere on other planes (or in metaverses beyond the accessable cosmology), there are lots of even higher level epic characters, and possibly overdeities. The reason they haven't been interfering with the game is because issues in the material plane (or even the whole multi-verse) are below their concern, just like 1st level parties don't worry about 20th level characters helping them with their quests.

The archvillian of most epic games is somewhere in between: He can get xp from those unseen NPCs, but is still weak enough to take the effort to interact with the PCs.