What are the OotS's Chances..

[Sinner or Saint]

Now I'm fairly sure the Comic isn't about to end in an epic failure for the good guys, but how exactly do they save themselves from a total party wipe?

I mean as of 876 the Cleric is either about to be dead, or vamped and under the control of Malack. Belkar is dominated under the control of Malack and likely soon to be vamped as well. V is currently separated from the party but largely unharmed. Even without Team Evil showing up on the scene, what can the Order do against a bolstered Linear Guild? They can't leave the Gate to the bad guys, but they lack the strength to hold it.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It looks to me right now that their best chances are to make the gate go boom, and then have a last-minute dash to Kraagor's gate.

[Morty]

You're making a lot of assumptions about how the plot is going to go from here.

[Sinner or Saint]

Many have said it is a good idea that Durkon be Vamped. I am just thinking about this logically, if Durkon becomes a Vampire he will most assuredly be under Malack's influence. Belkar is already dominated and under Malack's control. You can not un-vampire Durkon (though you can kill him) without a Cleric, so there is no party Cleric. Heck the only way to end Malack's influence of both Belkar and Durkon you have to kill Malack. You have no means to kill him as long as he has his Protection from Daylight spell. Even if Malack is defeated, and Durkon is still Durkon, you now have a Cleric whom can't be in sunlight in the middle of a desert without a coffin.

[zimmerwald1915]

V is currently separated from the party but largely unharmed.
Look again. Both V and Blackwing are injured pretty severely.


You can not un-vampire Durkon (though you can kill him) without a Cleric, so there is no party Cleric.
Sure they can. Haley can use divine scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), so all Durkon needs to do is purchase (or craft, if he can) a scroll of resurrection, give it to her, and have the Order destroy him.

[Incom]

Same stick-time, same stick-channel! NanananananananananananananananaELAN!
:smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I'd wait a few strips before making any predictions about how this battle is going to go, personally. V is a wild card (as is the IFCC if you believe the theory that his* debt means mind control), Team Evil are wild cards, the traps on the door are potential wild cards, whatever is behind the door is unknown, whatever Roy's Archon is doing could be involved (Roy has reason to believe Durkon might die before the Gates are secured--Durkon would go to the LG afterlife, add two and two together), we don't know about Belkar's allegiance...

Too early to call things IMO. But the fact that it looks really bad for the protagonists is a sign of good writing.

*"his" is classically gender-neutral AND masculine in English, and I always thought of V as masculine, but this is offtopic

[Gift Jeraff]

Has Elan taught you nothing? The lower their chances, the better.

[bguy]

Now I'm fairly sure the Comic isn't about to end in an epic failure for the good guys, but how exactly do they save themselves from a total party wipe?

I mean as of 876 the Cleric is either about to be dead, or vamped and under the control of Malack. Belkar is dominated under the control of Malack and likely soon to be vamped as well. V is currently separated from the party but largely unharmed. Even without Team Evil showing up on the scene, what can the Order do against a bolstered Linear Guild? They can't leave the Gate to the bad guys, but they lack the strength to hold it.

It may be time for the Order to cut a deal with Tarquin. Xykon is clearly the greater threat since Tarquin has no immediate way to use the gate, and the Order and Guild together would stand a pretty good chance of defeating Team Evil. Tarquin doesn't have any real interest in destroying the Order (he respects Roy and certainly doesn't want to kill Elan), has already shown that he is willing to bargain for information (the Order knows a lot more about Xykon than he does), and would probably like the idea of a team-up with the Order (the heroes and villains coming together to fight a common enemy being one of the classic story tropes), so there is certainly room to negotiate a deal. And while long term Roy wouldn't want to leave Tarquin in control of the gate, a temporary alliance would at least give the Order a chance to regroup, get some reinforcments, and deal with the more immediate threat of Xykon.

[Chantelune]

Sure they can. Haley can use divine scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), so all Durkon needs to do is purchase (or craft, if he can) a scroll of resurrection, give it to her, and have the Order destroy him.

Well, Haley's point in Use Magic Device aside, it would first require Durkon to be willing to get cure from vampirism and we don't know how much of his mind might be altered if he's turned. :p

As for the OP, Durkon's not dead yet, nor vamped. Belkar showed that being in Malack's jaws wasn't enough to be dead, so we should wait before starting to worry about the order's near future.

If he does die, though... well, Elan recently started taking healing spells and thinking about his build. Might be an indication that he's about to take over as the party main healer. :smallamused:

But considering there's team evil coming up, losing both Belkar and Durkon might really hinder their chances, yes.

As for teaming up with Tarquin and Malack, it'll depend on Roy and his willingness to deal with them. And if Malack did turn Durkon as a vampire, he might not be in the mood to negociate a truce... Unless Tarquin and Malack are the most desesperate for an alliance and Roy manages to negociate Durkon's release from Malack's influence, at the very least. :smalleek:

[Grogmir]

Malak Vamps D.
V enters stage left.
V casts Sunburn (Issue with with Protection from daylight) or another spell
V Kills Malak. (Malak is days away from his home, in a windy cavern. No way he's getting home in Gas from)
Both B and D are now free willed and able to return to the Order.

Heck that could happen within 1 / 2 strips.

Personally think more than that will happen. But c'est possible that the order could be back up to speed very quickly.

[Chantelune]

Unless Malack bring his coffin, just in case. Could be in a bag of holding either on the dinosaur outside or held by Tarquin. Given he made sure to get a backdoor in that spell, I wouldn't be surprised if he did make such arrangement. :smallbiggrin:

[Grogmir]

Unless Malack bring his coffin, just in case. Could be in a bag of holding either on the dinosaur outside or held by Tarquin. Given he made sure to get a backdoor in that spell, I wouldn't be surprised if he did make such arrangement. :smallbiggrin:

Completely feasible I agree and something a High Wisdom Vamp would probably do.
But it ruins my narrative so i'm choosing to overlook it :smallsmile:

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe Elan will finally snap and go Super Saiyan. Oh wait, that's only in my fan fic.

[Roland Itiative]

I'm thinking an Enemy Mine situation with the Order and Tarquin (the original members of the Linear Guild might or might not follow) teaming up is likely at this point.

Even if the Malack fight ends without the Order losing any party member, the game is still rigged against them, as the Linear Guild is still a threat, and Team Evil will probably show up sooner rather than later (so no time for resting and restocking on spells).

[rodneyAnonymous]

V is currently separated from the party but largely unharmed.

Last time we saw the elf, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html)it was very damaged from the fall.

[BRC]

Remember that Nale's whole premise for going after the gates is flawed.

He assumes that "Since Xykon can use the gates, I'll figure it out, because I am smarter than him". He can't. He probably lied to Tarquin and said that hey knew how to use the Gates, Either beating Tarquin's Bluff Check, or making it not a lie because he's so sure of himself that he fully believes he'll be able to use the gates.

My guess is that Tarquin learns that Nale cannot actually do anything with a Gate besides destroy it and cuts his losses.

[Chess435]

Maybe Elan will finally snap and go Super Saiyan. Oh wait, that's only in my fan fic.

Oh god, I can't stop laughing. :smallbiggrin:

[Ellye]

I don't think the OotS will fight Team Evil in this gate. They are completely out of shape for that, and would most likely get obliterated without standing much of a chance at all.
They could intentionally destroy the gate if it happens to have a neat timed self-destruction device like Dorukan's did. But if it doesn't, that's unlikely (remember how Soon's gate went out with a massive explosion when it was destroyed, that would be way too risky, especially underground).

I'm finding most likely that The Linear Guild will fight Team Evil for this gate. The gate will likely end up destroyed too.

I kinda really, really want to see a Malack vs Redcloak fight.

[dps]

IMO, there's a good chance that Malack might just give Durkon his free will, and Durkon still helps the Order fight Team Evil if they show up--evil if vamp!Durkon is evil (and we don't know exactly how The Giant is handling any mental change Durkon might suffer as a result of vamping), he still has no reason to want Xykon to grab a gate.

Though I just had a thought--if Xykon is more clued in to what Redcloak is really up to than we think he is, he might make a play to ditch Redcloak and get a new divine caster for the ritual. Either Malack or Durkon could work for that, in theory.

I've seen a lot of speculation about Redcloak replacing Xykon with another arcane caster, but not much about the reverse.

[Shred-Bot]

Maybe Elan will finally snap and go Super Saiyan. Oh wait, that's only in my fan fic.

Might not be worth it... by D&D rules, Spirit Bomb would probably still cap out at 20d6.

[RickDaily12]

IMO, there's a good chance that Malack might just give Durkon his free will, and Durkon still helps the Order fight Team Evil if they show up--evil if vamp!Durkon is evil (and we don't know exactly how The Giant is handling any mental change Durkon might suffer as a result of vamping), he still has no reason to want Xykon to grab a gate.

Though I just had a thought--if Xykon is more clued in to what Redcloak is really up to than we think he is, he might make a play to ditch Redcloak and get a new divine caster for the ritual. Either Malack or Durkon could work for that, in theory.

I've seen a lot of speculation about Redcloak replacing Xykon with another arcane caster, but not much about the reverse.

No good. In case you've forgotten, Xykon has already tried this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html) But it didn't work. Redcloak shuts down the plan completely by knowing the entire divine half off the top of his head. (Or rather, off the top of his Crimson Mantle.)

I will say this, though. I DO NOT IN ANY WAY WANT TO SEE DURKON AS A VAMPIRE RETURNING HOME. IF he returns home dead, he better be doing it in a non-redead fated urn or casket. If this means destroying him ahead of time, burning him, tearing him into pieces, reducing his body to something desecrated, or what have you... I do not want to see him like this for anything short of temporary. Not Durkon. Just... not Durkon.

Unless...

Even though it wouldn't ever pan out for Team Evil, suppose Xykon really does try to oust Redcloak in for Vamp Cleric Durkon. If Redcloak now joins the Order in a jointed effort to destroy Xykon and/or offers to restore Durkon (and not to mention he's one of the only ones who can do this) then a plot twist like this would probably make up for, well, you know, killing my favorite dwarf... :smallfrown:

Regardless, let's just see what happens from here. The Order's best move... yeah. Probably involves another "KRACKAAKOOOOOM" (sorry, V) followed by full retreat and then regrouping for reasons discussed in the spoiler. Girard's Gate has fallen, Roy. Just end it, let it go, and make this last one count.

[dps]

No good. In case you've forgotten, Xykon has already tried this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html) But it didn't work. Redcloak shuts down the plan completely by knowing the entire divine half off the top of his head. (Or rather, off the top of his Crimson Mantle.)


Xykon doesn't necessarily realize that.

[Karen]

They are at least down their cleric, and probably Belkar too. Not just out but on the other side. That makes it 8 to 4 and Xykon hasn't even shown up yet. Unless there is some other plot twist they have no choice but to blow the gate and withdraw to get reinforcements. With that said I would be surprised if it became that predictable, though we may have gotten to a stage where there has been sufficient prophecy and foreshadowing of the dire situation the heroes will find themselves in that what we are waiting for is how it will go down and how they get themselves out of this in the end.

[MurderOfCrows]

I figure that the LG (or at least the expansion members in Tarquin and Malak) are gonna go down fighting Xykon and Redcloak. Both those two are (somewhat) over-levelled for the OotS (especially down members), and loaded up with magic gear on the side too.

I'm speculative on whether the Order will align with the LG (in any combination), or somehow destroy the gate while the high enders are busy duking it out.

It'd be a bit of an amusing comeuppance on the villain, if for all his machinations and attempts to set up his legend, Tarquin just gets stepped on like a bug by a marauding lich who doesn't even know he is.

[Chantelune]

Well, now that we know they're short of Durkon, things don't look good for the Order. Durkon was the most competent out there after V and their main healer. As I mentioned earlier, Elan started to plan over his healing abilities so he can take other Durkon's job as a healer, but far from being as efficient. Still better than no healer, but still...

Considering Belkar, maybe Malack will let him go both so he can notify the Order and grant Durkon his last wish. Can Malack put off his vampiric gaze from Belkar ? Don't remember the rules about that, if they say anything about this. I can kind of see Malack doing this to honor his late friend, as he seems genuinly friendly toward him before and this would be like him. If not, the order will be short another melee fighter and this will make the coming battles even more difficult.

As for teaming up with Tarquin, if Malack don't stay behind as requested by Durkon and Roy learns what happened to his friend, I doubt he'll be willing to cut any deal. :smallconfused: Might do anyway if he manage to see past his grief, but this seems a bit unlikely to me.

Now they really need V to get back to them or I think they're done for. Right now, the order is down to Roy and Haley. Plus Elan. :smalleek:

[Winter]

Now I'm fairly sure the Comic isn't about to end in an epic failure for the good guys, but how exactly do they save themselves from a total party wipe?

I think Belkar might die here as well. Maybe, maybe not. If not, he's still under control of Malack.

Assuming Durkula does not re-join the Order (for now) the smartest move the Order could make is to set up Team Evil and the Linear Guild, then flee and re-organise. The smartest move for Roy would be to take Elan and Haley and hire new adventurers (preferribly those two that Durkon found in Origin of PCs + Buffy).
We know this isn't going to happen as it's a story centered on the Order. But I think this specific situation is lost and the actually best thing to do was to pit Tarquin and Team Evil, hoping that one sides will encounters irreplaceable losses (Redcloak, for example) while the other gets wiped, then come in from the back with fresh resources (e.g. a re-found Vaasuvius) and blow up the gate before the winning evil side can do something bad with it.

Re-form the Order (in whatever way) before Kraagor's Gate for the final tussle. I'm pretty sure that Vaarsuvius could get Durkula back on the Team by showing him what it means to have REAL guilt on ones soul. Being a life-draining abomination (made against your own will!) is a pretty small sin compared to what Vaarsuvius did. Unless Rich turns Durkon into a blood-sucking mindless evil raving vampire, Durkula is very probably going to see reason there.

I have no idea on Belkar's state. I can very well imagine him alive (under control of Malack until Malack is destroyed) or dead and a second Vampire (drained by Malack or Durkula).

[Roland Itiative]

The is another "if" in the whole Durkon-rejoins-the-Order-as-a-vampire theory no one is accounting for. Durkon would need to be buried, and would be completely out of the game for 1~4 days in order to come back as a vampire, unless The Giant decides to not follow D&D rules here. So, even if he does come back as a vampire (very likely, but not guaranteed yet), it's probable that he'll return too late to take part in the current Gate battle again.

[Winter]

unless The Giant decides to not follow D&D rules here.

I'm betting you 10 virtual goldpieces he won't. It'll not even take 1d4 minutes until Durkon becomes Durkula.

[Chantelune]

Whatever happen, I'm pretty sure it will wreck havok in the order's plans so far. It might prove difficult now to fill the gate's room with a dozen deva, even if Durkula come to help them. :smallconfused:

[Winter]

Yes, right now, Vaarsuvius, Belkar and Durkon are not available (and it is a bit unlikely they become available again within the next few strips).

[Chantelune]

Well, V might pull herself together and regroup with the order soon enough, but Durkon and most likely Belkar are out of the game for now. Think there's a small chance that Malack will let Belkar go as a way to grant Durkon's last request, but doubt it. At least, he'll probably keep him charmed with him.

[Plastic_Croc]

First post:

Tarquin will join with the Oots to fight Xykon as he will realize that the ante has just been upped immeasurably.

When all is lost and Team Evil is about to Triumph, Tarquin will do a Darth Vader, knowing that there is no alternative and save his son(s) by sacrificing himself to destroy the gate and foil the liche.

In the end, Tarquin will die a hero and possibly an unknown one at that.

[gorocz]

Sure they can. Haley can use divine scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), so all Durkon needs to do is purchase (or craft, if he can) a scroll of resurrection, give it to her, and have the Order destroy him.
I'm not 100% sure how UMD works when activating scrolls, but I'll go with what I can read from srd - there's quite a difference between activating a Sending scroll and a Resurrection scroll. For the former, Haley probably has the required Wisdom score (14), but for the latter, she'd need 17, which she doesn't have, which means she'd need to emulate it. That's 2 UMD checks, one with DC 27, one with DC 32 (UMD check-15 must result in 17+). And if it's possible for a scroll to mishap when used through UMD...I don't even know what could a backfiring Resurrection scroll do...

And I'm pretty sure it's not easy to get that scroll anyway. Even if Durkon was willing to do it, we don't know if he can scribe scrolls (not to mention that'd take 3 days, which the Order doesn't really have to spare currently). I mean, that Sending scroll could've been scribed by V (who has Scribe scrolls as class feature) and given to Durkon (and then Haley when V was planeshifted). And buying that scroll could prove hard too (it's a pretty rare scroll).

[Chantelune]

I think a resurection is out of the question, but a raise dead might be possible, though don't know if that would be enough to cure vampirism.

[Winter]

I think a resurection is out of the question, but a raise dead might be possible, though don't know if that would be enough to cure vampirism.

If you kill it first, it should work according to the normal rules. You have a body, you can resurrect it within the usual constraints (regarding timeframes, cost, level required to cast).

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, if Durkon is freed by Malack or Malack dies, freeing him, he can possibly rejoin the Order, as the Dwarf of Darkness, perhaps. :smalleek:

Who knows what a Nergal spell list would help with against Xykon.

[Chantelune]

I'm sure Belkar would be delighted to have Durkula on the team and V might not give much care about it as long as he don't see them as walking tankards, but Roy, Elan and probably Haley ? I'm not sure they would be too happy with a vampire in the team. They already have their hands full with Belkar.

I'd love to get Durkula in the Order again, but it's seems unlikely. Hopefully, I'm wrong. :smallamused:

[gorocz]

I think a resurection is out of the question, but a raise dead might be possible, though don't know if that would be enough to cure vampirism.

Raise Dead can't be used on a creature that has been turned undead (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)). Only Ressurection and True Ressurection (and even with those only after destroying the undead).

[dps]

Raise Dead can't be used on a creature that has been turned undead (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)). Only Ressurection and True Ressurection (and even with those only after destroying the undead).

What about a creature that has been killed by a vampire but hasn't actually risen as an undead yet? I saw that question asked in another thread, but didn't see any answer. (Whether the comic will follow the letter of the rules that the character has to be buried and rises as an undead 1D4 days later is another, though related, question.)

[Lightning Fast]

Maybe Elan will finally snap and go Super Saiyan. Oh wait, that's only in my fan fic.

Please send me a link to this fic.

[toughluck]

IMO, there's a good chance that Malack might just give Durkon his free will, and Durkon still helps the Order fight Team Evil if they show up--evil if vamp!Durkon is evil (and we don't know exactly how The Giant is handling any mental change Durkon might suffer as a result of vamping), he still has no reason to want Xykon to grab a gate.

Though I just had a thought--if Xykon is more clued in to what Redcloak is really up to than we think he is, he might make a play to ditch Redcloak and get a new divine caster for the ritual. Either Malack or Durkon could work for that, in theory.

I've seen a lot of speculation about Redcloak replacing Xykon with another arcane caster, but not much about the reverse.

If Xykon is more clued in to what Redcloak is up to, he wouldn't have needed Tsukiko to work out the ritual for him. Also, if he knew that the ritual wasn't going to benefit him, he would have either:
a) reworked it himself to cast when they are at the gate;
b) killed Redcloak on the spot and went on to do other lichy things.

Honestly, if Xykon knew that Redcloak was going to short-change him, what benefit would it have been for him to continue with the plan? Also, neither Malack nor Durkon are in any way qualified to cast the ritual, not knowing it at all, and it wouldn't benefit them either.

Finally: why the spoiler tags? This is a speculation, so it's outside of any spoilers, and as for the back story, it's irrelevant -- if you enter this thread, you know the risk of being spoiled.

[gorocz]

What about a creature that has been killed by a vampire but hasn't actually risen as an undead yet? I saw that question asked in another thread, but didn't see any answer. (Whether the comic will follow the letter of the rules that the character has to be buried and rises as an undead 1D4 days later is another, though related, question.)

Well, the rules state that the subject's will must be free and willing to return and we don't know yet, if the soul is enthralled immediately or only after the spawn rises (though I'd presume the former). I'd say this would be pretty much on each DM's own houseruling. Btw, one could even argue, whether the 1d4 days buried period isn't only for the Energy Drain turning (rules aren't specific on this, the official FAQ stays silent on this too).

[dps]

If Xykon is more clued in to what Redcloak is up to, he wouldn't have needed Tsukiko to work out the ritual for him. Also, if he knew that the ritual wasn't going to benefit him, he would have either:
a) reworked it himself to cast when they are at the gate;
b) killed Redcloak on the spot and went on to do other lichy things.

Honestly, if Xykon knew that Redcloak was going to short-change him, what benefit would it have been for him to continue with the plan? Also, neither Malack nor Durkon are in any way qualified to cast the ritual, not knowing it at all, and it wouldn't benefit them either.

Finally: why the spoiler tags? This is a speculation, so it's outside of any spoilers, and as for the back story, it's irrelevant -- if you enter this thread, you know the risk of being spoiled.

There used to be a rule that we were supposed to spoiler speculation. That got dropped quite some time ago, but I'm just used to doing it.

[Carl]

Here's an interesting question. How good a healer would a highly epic level bard make? If the last remaining Scribble member is still out there and turns up all of a sudden and she's set up to be able to take over healing with a side order of whatever else, (makes sense if she's still alive that she'd have some impressive healing to get her through fights), while durkon runs his own arc for a while. If she's going to turn up, now would be the time.

[gorocz]

Here's an interesting question. How good a healer would a highly epic level bard make? If the last remaining Scribble member is still out there and turns up all of a sudden and she's set up to be able to take over healing with a side order of whatever else, (makes sense if she's still alive that she'd have some impressive healing to get her through fights), while durkon runs his own arc for a while. If she's going to turn up, now would be the time.

That would be an interesting idea, but unfortunately, Serini was a rogue. There was no bard in the Scribble. His place (role-wise, not attitude-wise) was probably filled by Soon Kim, a paladin.

[quasit]

Might not be worth it... by D&D rules, Spirit Bomb would probably still cap out at 20d6.

Well, as dbz goes would be more like an area vengefull gaze of god (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Vengeful_Gaze_of_God)
A bit out of Elan's current mid-level abilities, thought :smallbiggrin:

[Man on Fire]

I think their chances of survival are directly proportional to chances of Team Evil showing up and assaulting Linear Guild.

[Carl]

Gah, i'd somehow got it into my head she was a bard. banghead.

[TheYell]

A party with no spellcasters or serious healers has no chance.

I'm sure Rich knows that... I'm looking forward to what happens.

[gorocz]

Gah, i'd somehow got it into my head she was a bard. banghead.

Yeah, me too. Only found about that after I checked a wiki to find out if we know anything about her spellcasting capabilities. It was probably because she was the one to tell the tale in her diary and the one that was the most similiar to Elan character-wise...

[Carl]

I think it's probably her comment about "i've got the charisma for it" vis a vis taking a level in paladin that throws us. We expect someone with such high charisma to be a charisma centric class. and it's one of her more memorable lines.

Also i just had a really, really, really, horribble thought.

How old is Durkon because the Kragor gate was above ground apparently which means the tomb must have been built over it, not underground. So what's to have stopped the local dwarves looking for a new mining base clearing the place out totally unaware of what they're protecting.

ohcrapohcrapohcrapohcrapohcrap....


:smallfrown:

[Rougn]

Question: V killed off the defense of the Gate and to cover this weakness they where going to have Durkon summon planar allies however with him dead how are they going to defend the gate?

[Sinner or Saint]

Something to point out here about the whole buried thing. If true, Durkon is most definitely out of the adventure both good or bad until he is buried. The thing is, why wouldn't Malack bury Durkual post haste if this is in fact how one creates a vampire?

[Psyren]

I wonder if Hilgya might show up again and join the Order? She actually fills two roles - internal conflict with the straightlaced leader, and powerful divine caster. Certainly she'd have a reason to help put Durkon down (if not revive him) if she ended up pregnant with his child.

[GnomeGninjas]

Why do people keep saying it takes 1d4 days?

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
It gives no delay for raising after blood drain. He will come back as a vampire immediately, it doesn't require any rules violation.

[gorocz]

Why do people keep saying it takes 1d4 days?

It gives no delay for raising after blood drain. He will come back as a vampire immediately, it doesn't require any rules violation.
Because it is not clear if the delay is only for Energy Drain or Blood Drain too. The "vampire instead drains the victim's Constitution" mentioned in the part of the description you quoted could very well be interpreted that only specified parts of the transformation are changed (i.e. only the Vampire Spawn vs. full Vampire part, not the time) and the rest stays the same. Anything that isn't stated specifically (e.g. "returns immediately") can and will be debated and how it is played depends solely on the DM (or in this case the Giant). Guess we'll just have to wait and see, though I'd prefer if Durkon got turned immediately rather than having to be buried...

[denthor]

destroy the gate

[Rogar Demonblud]

I wonder if Hilgya might show up again and join the Order? She actually fills two roles - internal conflict with the straightlaced leader, and powerful divine caster. Certainly she'd have a reason to help put Durkon down (if not revive him) if she ended up pregnant with his child.

Yes. A son she would inevitably name Mordred, because Arthurian legendry is one of the few things Rich hasn't tapped yet.

[Psyren]

Yes. A son she would inevitably name Mordred, because Arthurian legendry is one of the few things Rich hasn't tapped yet.

Considering how frequently D&D itself has raided that particular larder, I would think he wouldn't have to.

[Man on Fire]

Question: V killed off the defense of the Gate and to cover this weakness they where going to have Durkon summon planar allies however with him dead how are they going to defend the gate?

...Can Durkon now summon planar allies for the bad guys?
We need Xykon and Redcloak here, the sooner the better.

[Chantelune]

...Can Durkon now summon planar allies for the bad guys?
We need Xykon and Redcloak here, the sooner the better.

Depends on various things. As he is now a vampire, Thor might revoke him as his cleric and not grant him any spells. If so, Durkon would need to convert to another god (I hope for Hel, would be awesome and she might be happy to have her first cleric to the point to speed up things and gives him more attention that Thor), then probably prepare the new spells slot.

But don't really know how a conversion goes for a cleric. Might be more complicated and time consuming than just saying "woohoo, I just convert, Thor is awesome, I hate tree, let's get drunk !" :smalltongue:

[Roland Itiative]

In the end, Tarquin will die a hero and possibly an unknown one at that.
That would be a great way to "defeat" Tarquin. I imagine Elan would even want to make sure he is known as a hero if it happens, if only to completely foil Tarquin's plan of becoming an evil legend.

But speaking of Durkon and Elan and Tarquin... Now that Durkon has been turned into a vampire, what will happen to the plan Elan made, that apparently relied on Durkon?

[snikrept]

Their best chance is to convince Tarquin's team to ditch Nale and die tragically to Xykon! All they need is a for Elan to take glibness. You can do it Haley, go go diplomancy cheese !

[Tev]

Well what can IFCC do to give V more power during the "borrowed" time?

If they can soulsplice or something similar, I think chances for Order against some villain group trying to overtake the gate are pretty good at the moment.

Think about it - after converting of Durkon (and likely Belkar), OotS on it's own has no chance of even slowing X&RC, and Linear guild with new vamps will mop the floor with Roy's party as well.
And IFCC wants conflict, not clear victory*. They might like LG vs Team Evil fight for gate, but that assumes LG will use Durkon's knowledge of X's plans and spells and will be willing to fight him. And have a chance against him, which is up for a debate.

So what can IFCC do to shake things up? Overtake V, give her some bigger guns and fire at the bad guys.

*unless they want something else with the Gate entirely, that would make this entire point moot.

[Chantelune]

Personally, I doubt the IFCC would makes direct intervention at this point. They needed to get Xykon on the move again, we don't know what they want now, might be for Xykon and Rec cloack to do the ritual so they can hijack it somehow and get control of the Snarl instead of the Dark One. Or set it loose on the upper planes.

Nah, given the current situation, I think the Order's best bet is to destroy the gate before Xykon show up and bet it all on the last one. This might at least give them a little time to rebuild up to some point.

Another possibility is now that Malack has Durkon and possibly Belkar, he won't be so patient with Nale, especially now that he lost Sabine for the time being. If Tarquin planned to betray Nale, this might happen very soon as Sabine is out of the prime for now and they dramatically outnumber Nale's "side" who is down to just himself and Z. On the other hand, there's Tarquin, Malack and Kilkil plus Durkula and probably Belkar under domination (if he's vamped too, not sure Malack will speed up his arising as well).

In any case, I see no way for the order in its current state to win this over by themselves. Durkon being free-willed by Malack and regrouping with the order, maybe, but I kind of doubt they would accept him back that easily.

[i6uuaq]

Personally, I doubt the IFCC would makes direct intervention at this point. They needed to get Xykon on the move again, we don't know what they want now, might be for Xykon and Rec cloack to do the ritual so they can hijack it somehow and get control of the Snarl instead of the Dark One. Or set it loose on the upper planes.

Nah, given the current situation, I think the Order's best bet is to destroy the gate before Xykon show up and bet it all on the last one. This might at least give them a little time to rebuild up to some point.

Another possibility is now that Malack has Durkon and possibly Belkar, he won't be so patient with Nale, especially now that he lost Sabine for the time being. If Tarquin planned to betray Nale, this might happen very soon as Sabine is out of the prime for now and they dramatically outnumber Nale's "side" who is down to just himself and Z. On the other hand, there's Tarquin, Malack and Kilkil plus Durkula and probably Belkar under domination (if he's vamped too, not sure Malack will speed up his arising as well).

In any case, I see no way for the order in its current state to win this over by themselves. Durkon being free-willed by Malack and regrouping with the order, maybe, but I kind of doubt they would accept him back that easily.

Has anyone got any decent theories on what the IFCC's motivations and long-term goals really are? I don't buy that thing about 'conflict', because I don't see how it leads to them invading the celestial plains.

I'm trying to understand them better to figure out how they might act in the battle for the gates.

[zegram 33]

in terms of this battle.... my prediction is that girard is still alive and kicking,possibly along with at least some of his family.
they found....a body in his tomb, but they didnt find the gate there, which since the dead cant lie, it would have had to be (unless there a mountain formation named his cheeks with his shoes being buildings or something stupid).

the other thing is: look at how powerful the order of the scribble seemed: each one is individually stronger than xykon in general terms, only losing because of disadvantageous circumstances (lich negated a lot of lirians abilities, dorukan was dorukan was lured out without a "combat" spell-set, ghost soon flat out defeated him in MELEE, no less (incorporeal gave him the edge, but still)

so...i cant imagine girard would be so defencless against that, nor have NO defenses against his just dying of old age (presumably he taught his family a significant portion of his abilities, too, although i dont know how "epic level teacher"would translate into levels)

i'm wondering: what if girard and his top "officers" are NOT dead, but hiding out with the ACTUAL gate pyramid thats rather more heavily defended?
certainly, none of the bodies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html)shown seem to match girards own "children (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html)" in terms of tattoo or facial hair.

i think this battle could be rather neatly ended by the arrival of one or more epic illusionist wizards, who would turn up to see 2 high-level lawful-X clerics and a presumably lawful evil fighter type attacking a group of good adventurers in there home?

so what does everyone think, promising/unlikely/impossible?

[Chantelune]

I'd say very unlikely and close to impossible that Girard survived the familicide spell. Given the scale only and it seemed to not allowed a saving throw (even if you save only on natural 20, that would mean that one every twenty people would be spared), it must have been an epic level spell and even if there were some sort of protection from it, I doubt Girard was shielding himself every single day, just in case. And he had likely no way to know that a familicide would target him, or he would at least made preparation to save his family.

So no, I think Girard is dead.

[TRH]

Impossible because, well, Familicide. Epic level death magic and by far the most powerful display of magic we've seen in the story thus far. You seem to be assuming Girard somehow survived that...because? Because he's epic? That didn't save the whole rest of the Order of the Scribble, and they weren't attacked by epic magic they had no reason to expect. And it's not like Girard had any reason to see the Familicide coming (assuming he lived long enough for that to happen, which contradicts all available evidence), either; he's not the Oracle. So yeah, I have no idea what makes this theory run besides wishful thinking, really. Deus ex Machina comes up a lot on this board, but Girard popping up out of nowhere for no discernible reason to save the day would definitely qualify as such.

[Jay R]

If, when Malack first bumped into Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0868.html), you said, "Well, I guess Durkon is about to be a vampire, then feel free to speculate on what happens next.

But if you didn't predict that, then you are not qualified to guess what will happen next. (I've been caught off-guard at least three times this week, and have given up guessing what will happen next.)

Relax and enjoy the ride. Rich is driving.

[Roland Itiative]

in terms of this battle.... my prediction is that girard is still alive and kicking,possibly along with at least some of his family.
That would require Girard to have lived for a very long time for a human and found a way to survive an epic spell that caused instantaneous death and came literally out of nowhere. Doesn't sound very likely.



they found....a body in his tomb, but they didnt find the gate there, which since the dead cant lie, it would have had to be (unless there a mountain formation named his cheeks with his shoes being buildings or something stupid).
The dead can't lie, but they can give literal, useless answers. Roy asked where "Girard's rift" is, the dead guy said it's between his buttcheeks, so he interpreted "Girard's rift" as "Girard's *******".

[zegram 33]

i admit it's not very likely, but it also seems kinda unlikely that someone as fantastically paranoid as girard, who knowingly made sure that all his defenses relied on his bloodline, wouldnt provide at least some sort of magical protection.
again: whilst the spliced soul that used familicide escaped, both the other two at the same time were a roughly even match for xykon, so roughly girards level (unless girard was a LOT weaker than the others in that team)

do we know that natural 20=automatic success in Oots-world?
(the closest i can remember is roy bluffing haley on a natural 20 when it comes to looking for his starmetal, and the srd explicitly say's skill checks DONT follow that rule, so...i dunno)

but yeh, compared to the other gates, girard so far seems to have been pretty crazily incompetant, especially compared to how he was portrayed earlier in the story

[JosephOrJoe]

I'll be disappointed in Girard if he doesn't have some final super nasty trap waiting for anyone who gets through his other protections.

Something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html), but worse, which makes sure no one gets his gate.