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Mechanize
2013-03-03, 03:28 PM
I hate these skill checks. All athletic skills in real life, short of lifting heavy objects, require both strength and dexterity. When you jump you use str to jump and dex to land on your feet. When you swim you need str or endurance plus the dex based coordination. When you climb you require both str to pull yourself up and dex to not slip. To sprint you need str to move fast and dex to no trip over your own feet. The two go hand in hand.

If you were to redo D&D mechanics, how would you take care of these skills checks? Assuming you dislike how they are done in the first place... :P

Madeiner
2013-03-03, 03:39 PM
I'd go with primary and secondary attributes.
Primary attribute works like normal.
Secondary attribute is only negative: if you have less than 10 on your secondary attribute, you take a penalty, but it doesn't give any bonus.
Or, you add only half of your secondary attribute to the check.

Berenger
2013-03-03, 03:39 PM
I'd do it like HackMaster or The Dark Eye and use more than one ability where appropriate. New HackMaster uses the lowest relevant ability score, Old HackMaster uses the average of all relevant ability scores and The Dark Eye uses three dice per check, one against every relevant ability (some skills have one ability twice oder thrice when only one ability can be applied).

Mechanize
2013-03-03, 03:44 PM
And that doesn't make things too confusing? multiple types of checks for scores that have 1 or 2 or 3 appropriate modifiers?

jindra34
2013-03-03, 03:48 PM
And that doesn't make things too confusing? multiple types of checks for scores that have 1 or 2 or 3 appropriate modifiers?

If you are going to be that picky about realism and all, you are going to have to deal with a lot of confusing complexity in a system.

Razanir
2013-03-03, 03:51 PM
I'd go with primary and secondary attributes.
Primary attribute works like normal.
Secondary attribute is only negative: if you have less than 10 on your secondary attribute, you take a penalty, but it doesn't give any bonus.
Or, you add only half of your secondary attribute to the check.

I might actually houserule that in.

On a side note, my campaign is slowly turning into its own system

Quorothorn
2013-03-03, 03:56 PM
If you want to keep it simple, you can just use the "best of" approach: each character uses STR/DEX/whatever, whichever is the highest.

Madeiner's idea seems to have potential to me, as well, if you're willing for a bit more complication.

Berenger
2013-03-03, 03:59 PM
The Dark Eye is not a exactly a very quick system.

For example: You have 9 skill points in Climb (Str/Dex/Con).

For a climbing check, you roll one d20 for Strenght, one for Dexterity and one for Constitution. You must roll under or equal to each ability score. If you roll over your score, you have to use skill points to compensate. For example, Strength 14, Roll 16 = use 2 skill points, Dexterity 11, Roll 9 = passed, Constitution 8, Roll 13 = use 5 skill points. You had to use 7 out of 9 skill points, so you succeeded. Without climbing skill, you would have failed with the strength check.

That's rather complicated when compared to 1d20+modifier, I know. But the system as a whole does have its merits. It's more complex and "lifelike" than D&D in my opinion. Among other things, those skill checks give you an idea what went wrong when you fail.

The necessary abilities can also be altered. Swimming 200 feet against a heavy river current isn't the same as having to tread water for 4 hours in a pond.

Matticussama
2013-03-03, 04:07 PM
I commonly adjust it based upon the circumstances. Sometimes the check requires skill + Dex, sometimes skill + Str, sometimes skill + Con; it all depends upon the act in question. That isn't how it traditionally works in D&D, but it offers a bit more flexibility without completely overhauling the system.

Jack of Spades
2013-03-03, 04:09 PM
For a system that's going for mechanical pseudo-realism at the level which DnD is, having climbing/swimming/running/etc be lumped into one category is a bit silly in the first place. So, if I were to devise a system, they'd be different skills.

But, here's an idea that I just came up with: what if any and all physical attribute penalties apply to all physical (STR/DEX/CON based) skill rolls? Then, if someone is extremely clumsy or has very little stamina, it will be reflected in the results of normally strength-based checks. It fits closely enough to life, and adds almost no extra clunkiness to the rules. You could probably do something similar with mental attributes, but it wouldn't make sense.

WoD has a pretty good solution for the problem you're talking about. Skills in WoD are completely different from attributes. When you make a skill roll, the GM calls for a [skill]+[attribute] roll, and the two scores make your dice pool. So a Dex+Firearms roll is shooting a gun, whereas cleaning the gun will be something like Wits+Firearms.

Deadlands Classic does something similar. Woo mentioned Deadlands!

Mechanize
2013-03-03, 04:18 PM
WoD has a pretty good solution for the problem you're talking about. Skills in WoD are completely different from attributes. When you make a skill roll, the GM calls for a [skill]+[attribute] roll, and the two scores make your dice pool. So a Dex+Firearms roll is shooting a gun, whereas cleaning the gun will be something like Wits+Firearms.


This sounds pretty simple and realistic at the same time. A skills list with variable mod scores.

Juhn
2013-03-03, 04:26 PM
WoD has its own issues, including not clearly delineating when to use one Attribute over another (e.g. when does one use Presence + Socialize vs Manipulation + Socialize) and the fact that it's entirely possible to have a character with, say, 4 Brawl but 0 Athletics. The core idea is fairly sound, though, yes.

Rhynn
2013-03-03, 04:40 PM
When you swing a sword, you're using your strength but your hand-eye coordination (Dexterity) is what you actually hit with (given that it's impossible to penetrate iron or steel armor, and you go around it). In D&D, it's Str alone, unless it's Dex alone.

It's a simple game in many ways.


I'd do it like HackMaster or The Dark Eye and use more than one ability where appropriate. New HackMaster uses the lowest relevant ability score, Old HackMaster uses the average of all relevant ability scores and The Dark Eye uses three dice per check, one against every relevant ability (some skills have one ability twice oder thrice when only one ability can be applied).

HârnMaster (the one whose name HackMaster spoofs) averages three attributes (sometimes one twice plus one once) to get your base score in every skill. You get a score on the 1-100 range (although it can go higher), which is rolled against with d100 (and modifiers to the base value).

Much simpler than The Dark Eye. I dislike TDE's system because it's totally impossible for me (and I suspect for most other people) to determine the chance of success on a roll, because it's so complex. (I'm sure it plays well, but I find I like systems better when I can understand the odds.)

Kurald Galain
2013-03-03, 04:41 PM
WoD has a pretty good solution for the problem you're talking about. Skills in WoD are completely different from attributes. When you make a skill roll, the GM calls for a [skill]+[attribute] roll, and the two scores make your dice pool. So a Dex+Firearms roll is shooting a gun, whereas cleaning the gun will be something like Wits+Firearms.
That's in theory. In practice, every skill has one attribute that it is clearly tied to, and it is used in combination with that attribute 95% of the time. Certain WW subsystems explicitly sort the skills by attribute, like D&D does.

I find that in practice, almost every skill roll has a clear primary attribute anyway. Interestingly, the last playtest version of 5E D&D that I've seen does separate attributes from skills.

Rhynn
2013-03-03, 04:44 PM
Also, many, many systems decouple skills and attributes and just do "roll an appropriate attribute and an appropriate skill." Twilight 2013 springs to mind immediately, and Legend of Five Rings. In fact, D&D Next does this...

Ashtagon
2013-03-03, 05:05 PM
When you swing a sword, you're using your strength but your hand-eye coordination (Dexterity) is what you actually hit with (given that it's impossible to penetrate iron or steel armor, and you go around it). In D&D, it's Str alone, unless it's Dex alone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c
0:52

Want me to search for videos of melee weapons doing the same?

The Random NPC
2013-03-03, 05:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c
0:52

Want me to search for videos of melee weapons doing the same?

Yes, yes I do.

Hylas
2013-03-03, 05:48 PM
Redo D&D mechanics? Then I wouldn't have checks for jumping. You'd have a fixed jump range based on your speed and strength, which can be increased with a feat that would give something like +5 speed, +5/10 Jump range, and some increase to swim speed. I'd probably get rid of the swim skill too and make it more of a fixed value.

navar100
2013-03-03, 06:09 PM
If you are going to be that picky about realism and all, you are going to have to deal with a lot of confusing complexity in a system.

I object to my dog Going To Jail not only for not being read his rights but not even being charged with a crime! Who's the guy I'm bribing with $50 to get out anyway? I don't see any "no trespassing" sign between Marvin Gardens and Pacific Avenue. Three doubles gets me in but then one doubles gets me out? It's entrapment. No Justice! No Peace!

Morty
2013-03-03, 06:20 PM
That's in theory. In practice, every skill has one attribute that it is clearly tied to, and it is used in combination with that attribute 95% of the time. Certain WW subsystems explicitly sort the skills by attribute, like D&D does.

I find that in practice, almost every skill roll has a clear primary attribute anyway. Interestingly, the last playtest version of 5E D&D that I've seen does separate attributes from skills.

It doesn't really match my experience. Obviously, social skills will be used with social attributes and so forth, but other than that the Storytellers are free to use whichever combinations they find appropriate for the situation.

Kurald Galain
2013-03-03, 06:26 PM
It doesn't really match my experience. Obviously, social skills will be used with social attributes and so forth, but other than that the Storytellers are free to use whichever combinations they find appropriate for the situation.

I know they are free to do that, but it has been my experience that they don't actually do so in practice. YMVV on that, of course.

Mechanize
2013-03-03, 06:27 PM
Redo D&D mechanics? Then I wouldn't have checks for jumping. You'd have a fixed jump range based on your speed and strength, which can be increased with a feat that would give something like +5 speed, +5/10 Jump range, and some increase to swim speed. I'd probably get rid of the swim skill too and make it more of a fixed value.

As much as I agree with this because I'm not big on dying or getting hosed for simple skill challenges, do you not think this method would be a little boring? Or do you propose this fix to physical skills only which most people can pull off consistently?

Rhynn
2013-03-03, 06:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c
0:52

Want me to search for videos of melee weapons doing the same?

Bows are bows (although, frankly, given that period accounts record crusader knights impervious to arrows in mail & quilt, I'm dubious about the accuracy of that test, how well the padding corresponds to the aketons etc. worn under harness, and so on). Swords, axes, etc. (weapons used with Strength in D&D) do not penetrate metal armor as a matter of course. Even lances may have been incapable of it, although this is less clear. And, of course, there's weapons like warhammers, pollaxes and pollhammers that had very specialized penetrating heads that may indeed have punched holes in armor.

The overwhelming rule, though, is you go around armor. Look at armored longsword fechtbuchen - how many techniques are there where you go through armor rather than around it? Look at Battle of Nations and how casually people can beat each other with heavy weapons when they're wearing just low-quality repro armor.

Kind of off-topic here, though. Any continuation should probably go in Real-World Weapons and Armor.

Jack of Spades
2013-03-03, 06:47 PM
That's in theory. In practice, every skill has one attribute that it is clearly tied to, and it is used in combination with that attribute 95% of the time.

Depends on who's running the game. The social and mental attributes are a bit hard to differentiate between for some people, and so some GMs find combinations they like and stick with them whether or not they actually make sense.

The option is there, though. And it's easy. Which is important.

Emmerask
2013-03-03, 07:57 PM
And that doesn't make things too confusing? multiple types of checks for scores that have 1 or 2 or 3 appropriate modifiers?

It actually works out quite good once you get the hang of it.

just instead of throwing one d20 3 times throw 3 d20 one time and use color coded once with the colors always in the same order, red first green second blue third attribute involved.

It only takes marginally longer then using one d20 really but makes the skills a bit more realistic by not being forced to one attribute.

Also d&d 3.5 has far too few skills anyway :smallwink:

Raimun
2013-03-03, 08:47 PM
Meh, I'd just make everyone add both Str and Dex modifiers to their Athletics and Acrobatics checks. I might even let people add Con modifier too, since most of those things call for endurance and stamina too.

Four reasons:

1) Good "sports"-skills are hardly imbalanced. Or is any of them as valuable as Flight speed?
2) You can already do insane min/maxing with jumping... and flying is still better.
3) Even if they turned out to be imbalanced, I wouldn't care. Good thing if Fighters can get good things with their skill points.
4) After playing Uncharted and watching action movies, I've come to realize most D&D-games lack non-combat physical challenges, since GMs seem to know that at the most, only one person in the party can do any kind of action movie stunts.

Besides, jumping over chasms and hanging from cliffs is cool.

Mechanize
2013-03-03, 09:34 PM
I've been mulling over the variable attribute system. Having a skill list, then plugging in an appropriate modifier for a situation. Now, because this is all subjective, it could leave players and DM's bickering over silly stuff, but for the most part, this is what I have been writing down... Let me know what you guys think. *some of the skill names are a little different, been playing around with those too*

Variable Attribute Skill Checks:

Some skills have different applications. For each application choose the Skill required to complete the task, and add the most appropriate Ability Modifier.

Examples:

Jumping as far or as high as you can, with all your might, would use the Athletics skill coupled with your Strength mod.

Jumping, and needing to land soundly on your feet would use Athletics coupled with your Dexterity mod.

Running up a wall, then jumping off the wall to grab a chandelier that is 10ft higher would use the Acrobatics skill coupled with your Strength mod or vice versa, Athletics coupled with Dexterity.

Running up a wall, grabbing a rope within reach, then using the rope to swing onto a far platform would use Acrobatics coupled with Dexterity. Very little strength is required here, but you need plenty of finesse to run up the wall, grab the rope, and land on the platform without losing balance.

Doing a jumping front flip over an enemies head would be Acrobatics coupled with Strength because though this is surely an acrobatic feat, strength is required to make such a leap.

Disarming a trap that is a "choose the correct lever or fail" type would use the Mechanical Skill coupled with Intelligence.

Disarming a trap that has very fine parts, and only the slightest touch can disarm the trap without triggering it, then you would use the Mechanical skill coupled with Dexterity.

Finding the correct plant in the forest would use the Nature skill coupled with Intelligence

Trying to calm or train an animal would use the Nature skill coupled with wisdom.

Assessing the extent of a visual open wound with an Anatomy check would be coupled with Intelligence.

Trying to figure out why a creature died mysteriously, with no evidence, would use Anatomy coupled with wisdom because it is going more on intuition and gut instinct. Or you could try Intuition coupled with Intelligence.

Removing an embedded arrowhead from a patient, without killing him in the process, would be Anatomy coupled with dexterity

These are just examples. Most of it is up to the GM's descretion and player creativity.

valadil
2013-03-03, 10:42 PM
TBH, I'd keep it the way it is. All these options make the system more cumbersome. I don't want to dwell on my jump check for 5 minutes because I have to average 7 stats and see if I can use my Int (plus whatever other stats that entails) to make a physics check to see if I can find the optimal launch point for maximum distance. That sort of thing is awesome in a computer game, but in pen and paper I'd rather keep the arithmetic simple.

From a game design perspective, I think you end up needing to average the stats or use the same number of stats in all skills. If you decide that athletics uses strength, plus dexterity, plus constitution, but knowledge skills only use intelligence, those two skills will be on very different scales. To normalize them, they really should be averaged IMO.

Firest Kathon
2013-03-04, 05:16 AM
I like the way that DSA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye) does it. A skill check is comprised of three attribute checks, so if I want to jump across a pit I have to roll Agility/Strength/Courage.

Full rules: The skill ranks I have in a skill are used to compensate missed agility rolls. For example, my abilities are
Agility: 13
Strength: 12
Courage: 10
and I have 5 ranks in jump.
For my jump check, I roll 10/13/12 (the target is to roll under the ability score). So I met Agility, and I missed Strength by 1 and Courage by 2. This means I deduct 3 from my ranks, leaving me with a result of 2. Any result of 0 or more is considered a success, additional difficulties may reduce the skill ranks available for compensation.

It sounds complex, but I usually roll three differently colored dice, so it doesn't take much more time than rolling just one dice.

Rhynn
2013-03-04, 07:04 AM
I like the way that DSA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye) does it. A skill check is comprised of three attribute checks, so if I want to jump across a pit I have to roll Agility/Strength/Courage.

*cough* Berenger already covered TDE/DSA...

Jay R
2013-03-04, 08:34 AM
If you're going to combine them, you're not done. Intelligence is a part of it too. And after five minutes of fighting, CON comes into it. Combining all stats involved in a task leads to ever-increasing levels of complexity.

Until I see proof that most defensive linemen or heavyweight boxers can easily turn backflips in the air, and that most figure skaters can routinely lift extremely heavy objects, I'd do exactly what the rules say - roll on STR for things that are primarily strength-based, and roll on DEX for things that are primarily dexterity-based.

Firest Kathon
2013-03-04, 08:54 AM
*cough* Berenger already covered TDE/DSA...
How did I miss that...? :smallredface:

Mechanize
2013-03-04, 09:17 AM
If you're going to combine them, you're not done. Intelligence is a part of it too. And after five minutes of fighting, CON comes into it. Combining all stats involved in a task leads to ever-increasing levels of complexity.

Until I see proof that most defensive linemen or heavyweight boxers can easily turn backflips in the air, and that most figure skaters can routinely lift extremely heavy objects, I'd do exactly what the rules say - roll on STR for things that are primarily strength-based, and roll on DEX for things that are primarily dexterity-based.

You are using examples that weigh very heavily one way or the other, which is indeed straight forward. How about when that figure skater spins around like crazy while holding up his female partner over his head with one hand? Str or Dex? Both...

And doing backflips is not purely dexterity. Explosive strength is involved as well.

Anyone have any comments on my last post? :smallbiggrin:

Synovia
2013-03-04, 10:11 AM
TBH, I'd keep it the way it is. All these options make the system more cumbersome. I don't want to dwell on my jump check for 5 minutes because I have to average 7 stats and see if I can use my Int (plus whatever other stats that entails) to make a physics check to see if I can find the optimal launch point for maximum distance. That sort of thing is awesome in a computer game, but in pen and paper I'd rather keep the arithmetic simple.
.

Agree. You're making this much more complicated, essentially doubling the skill list, and I don't see a real gain here.

Getting things "more realistic" isn't a good thing if it makes everything more difficult to do, and makes every check take longer.

Seharvepernfan
2013-03-04, 10:19 AM
I hate these skill checks. All athletic skills in real life, short of lifting heavy objects, require both strength and dexterity. When you jump you use str to jump and dex to land on your feet. When you swim you need str or endurance plus the dex based coordination. When you climb you require both str to pull yourself up and dex to not slip. To sprint you need str to move fast and dex to no trip over your own feet. The two go hand in hand.

If you were to redo D&D mechanics, how would you take care of these skills checks? Assuming you dislike how they are done in the first place... :P

Your examples are just...I don't want to be rude, and I'm not trying to insult you, but they're just wrong. I was a pretty damn athletic and acrobatic person in my younger years - jumping just doesn't involve dex nearly as much as str; you never need dex to land unless you're making a balance check to land in a slippery area or on something tiny. Swimming is more about body shape than str or dex or con, I was above-average in str and dexterous as hell and I've always been a poor swimmer - because I'm built for running. Climbing does involve dex, but only for flexibility/agility, not to avoid slipping (you usually only slip because you're getting sweaty, or you're getting tired and therefor weak) - sometimes you need to lift your leg above your head. Sprinting, like jumping, only involves dex if you're doing it somewhere treacherous.

That said, IRL, some with 18 str and dex is going to be better at pretty much everything than someone equally trained but with only 18 in one score, assuming they have the same proportional body shape. Every skill uses just about every score IRL, to some degree. Jumping is moving, and moving is largely a dexterity thing, but stronger people move faster/harder, but then again, sometimes weak dexterous people move faster (reflexes). Still, it's going to be one score much much more than any other.

Jumping is about strength, but when you clump balance/jump/tumble into one skill, it's best to just go with dex.

I think D&D works fine.

If it really bothers you, do what fallout does, and make it a combination of two or three scores, but then you have to redo all the DCs. Jumping, for example, might be str x2 + dex.

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-04, 12:54 PM
I hate these skill checks. All athletic skills in real life, short of lifting heavy objects, require both strength and dexterity. When you jump you use str to jump and dex to land on your feet. When you swim you need str or endurance plus the dex based coordination. When you climb you require both str to pull yourself up and dex to not slip. To sprint you need str to move fast and dex to no trip over your own feet. The two go hand in hand.

If you were to redo D&D mechanics, how would you take care of these skills checks? Assuming you dislike how they are done in the first place... :P

If you're talking about 3.x D&D, I wouldn't redo them, because they're actually fine. :smalltongue:

Climb, Swim, Run and Jump demonstrably have more to do with your strenght and stamina, than with co-ordination, so it makes sense to use Strenght and Constitution as their base stats. (Before you're wondering what Con is doing there, it is used as a measure for how long you can do those things. You won't know this unless you actually know the rules in-depth.) Dexterity is not ignored, because these things get Synergy bonuses from Dex based skills, and you can improve them with Skill points, representing training and improved hand-eye co-ordination.

Tumbling, Balance and Escape Artist demonstrably have more to do with agility and hand-eye co-ordinataion than raw strenght, so it makes sense to use Dex as their base stat. (Bench-pressing a ton will not help you much when trying to touch your toes, or balance on a rope.) Strenght is not ignored because Strenght-based skills give Synergy bonuses where appropriate.

Using Strenght, rather than Dexterity, for melee attack and damage rolls also makes perfect sense within context of D&D, because the primary influencing factor of AC is, like the name suggests, armor. The idea that getting through armor is "impossible" is far cry from how things actually work. Most anti-armor weapons are, in fact, dedicated to focusing as much power into as small an area as possible precisely to pierce armor. Warhammers and punching daggers are a prime example of this.

Finally, weapon speed in real life has more to do with explosive strenght, than with agility. Even in the corner cases it isn't, D&D allows for training (=feats) to switch your primary ability to Dex. And training is, in all editions, more important than high strenght, also reflecting reality.

Mechanize
2013-03-04, 01:51 PM
Your examples are just...I don't want to be rude, and I'm not trying to insult you, but they're just wrong. I was a pretty damn athletic and acrobatic person in my younger years - jumping just doesn't involve dex nearly as much as str; you never need dex to land unless you're making a balance check to land in a slippery area or on something tiny. Swimming is more about body shape than str or dex or con, I was above-average in str and dexterous as hell and I've always been a poor swimmer - because I'm built for running. Climbing does involve dex, but only for flexibility/agility, not to avoid slipping (you usually only slip because you're getting sweaty, or you're getting tired and therefor weak) - sometimes you need to lift your leg above your head. Sprinting, like jumping, only involves dex if you're doing it somewhere treacherous.

That said, IRL, some with 18 str and dex is going to be better at pretty much everything than someone equally trained but with only 18 in one score, assuming they have the same proportional body shape. Every skill uses just about every score IRL, to some degree. Jumping is moving, and moving is largely a dexterity thing, but stronger people move faster/harder, but then again, sometimes weak dexterous people move faster (reflexes). Still, it's going to be one score much much more than any other.

Jumping is about strength, but when you clump balance/jump/tumble into one skill, it's best to just go with dex.

I think D&D works fine.

If it really bothers you, do what fallout does, and make it a combination of two or three scores, but then you have to redo all the DCs. Jumping, for example, might be str x2 + dex.

I don't want to be rude, and I'm not trying to insult -you- but you are completely incorrect. :smallwink: I'm an MMA instructor, an athlete, and a personal trainer. I also work with physical therapists on a daily basis.

Agility is motor skills and coordination. The ability for your body to do what you want when you want it to. Strength is the amount of force a muscle can put forth. Stamina is the length of time it can do so. You need all 3 to be effective. Lacking just one of them will either get you injured or hold you back dramatically. If your body doesn't do what you want, but you do it really hard and fast, you become a clumsy power house bodybuilder that would suck ass at sports. To have agility with no strength you become a weak string bean that can play video games like a pro. Every athlete, every gymnast, uses all 3 of these skills combined. Fairly equally I might add...

When you run, or land from a jump, every bit of your fine motorskills (agility) are working hand in hand with the power (strength) that your body is dishing out to make you move fast yet not fall over or trip up due to poor coordination. Then you have stamina which assures that you can hold out your action for longer than a few seconds.

When you balance, its not just dexterity... All of your stabilizers have to be strong enough, and have enough stamina, to work as a team in order to keep you up right. Look at a dancer... one would think dancing is balance, but their legs are freaking huge and cut because they use dex AND strength. Oh I might add that many football players, you know, those big brutes who only use strength checks, do ballet, dancing, or some other sort of high dexterous activities for training because it helps them run, jump, and catch balls that much better.

Whether you climb a cliff or a tree, swim, run, or whatever, your body is working together in a multitude of ways to do what you want to do. To say that you need only strength, or mostly strength, for this or that physical activity is extremely inaccurate. The only time you need one or the other, is the rare occaision you are just lifting a big rock, or playing guitar. Most things in between require both.

P.S. This isn't for D&D. This is my own system so I'm not trying to house rule anything.