Malack/Red-Cloak Alliance v.s Xykon

[ArlEammon]

So. . .what if an alliance between Malack and Red Cloak conspired to kill Xykon ? Who would win?

[Techmagss]

Red cloak could kill Xykon's phylactery first.
And Reddy has many,many goblins on his side, Xykon just wouldn't be able to stand up to Redcloak, Malack and a whole army of goblins at once even with his epic spells.
Just a guessc

[Chessgeek]

Even if Xykon is kind enough to have the fight in the middle of Gobbotopia and RC manages to convince all the hobgoblins to fight against Xykon,
1. That phylactery is in-flippin'-destructible. Redcloak has it, but I really really doubt he can do anything to it.
2. Xykon can cast Overland Flight and run away. And that's assuming he can't just win outright.

EDIT: Not to mention (SoD spoiler) Mitd will eat Redcloak if he betrays Xykon.

[SaintRidley]

Redcloak gains nothing from teaming up with another cleric. He needs a wizard or sorcerer to perform the ritual. Or a bard, I guess.

Odds of him deciding to team up with Malack are pretty low considering.

[Techmagss]

Well Xykon would be severely weakened if Reddy gets the whole goblin army against him as well as Malack and all that
He probably would have to start raising and picking.

[SaintRidley]

Well Xykon would be severely weakened if Reddy gets the whole goblin army against him as well as Malack and all that
He probably would have to start raising and picking.

Most of the goblin army is low enough level that they could only hit Xykon on a natural 20 and it wouldn't bypass his Damage Reduction. The goblin army is seriously a complete nonfactor.

[Raineh Daze]

Most of the goblin army is low enough level that they could only hit Xykon on a natural 20 and it wouldn't bypass his Damage Reduction. The goblin army is seriously a complete nonfactor.

Maybe they could get Xykon to waste spells? He seems bad at this 'moderation' business. :smallamused:

[SaintRidley]

Maybe they could get Xykon to waste spells? He seems bad at this 'moderation' business. :smallamused:

No need to waste spells. Just walk up, tap them on the shoulder, and they die from negative energy damage. Prior experience with that tells Xykon that it'll annoy Redcloak, and if Redcloak is turning on him, it's a sure way to get Redcloak to him right away.

He might drop a meteow swarm first, though, just to watch the chaos that spawns.

[Rakoa]

Most of the goblin army is low enough level that they could only hit Xykon on a natural 20 and it wouldn't bypass his Damage Reduction. The goblin army is seriously a complete nonfactor.

Aid Another action says differently.

[TheFarq]

1. That phylactery is in-flippin'-destructible. Redcloak has it, but I really really doubt he can do anything to it.


Xykon was rather worried about the possibility of the Azurites being able to destroy it when he was losing against Soon Kim, enough to attempt abandoning the battle entirely and trying to get Redcloak out of there.

I'd say it's destructible, but will just take a while to peel away all the layers of protection. Give him a day or two and maybe a few scrolls or an arcane caster to help, and it's toast

[zimmerwald1915]

Aid Another action says differently.
Overland Flight speaks louder.

[ellindsey]

First round of combat,

MITD eats Redcloak.

After that, Malack and the goblin army don't stand much of a chance.

[SaintRidley]

Aid Another action says differently.

You're suggesting that up to seven goblins spend their standard action on a round in order to give one goblin a chance to actually hit Xykon and fail to beat his Damage Reduction, achieving the same progress that eight goblins attacking individually would make?

I'm confused, I thought you were trying to refute my point about the goblins being completely irrelevant, not prove it.

[TRH]

Overland Flight speaks louder.

And Damage Reduction speaks louder still.

[Rakoa]

You're suggesting that up to seven goblins spend their standard action on a round in order to give one goblin a chance to actually hit Xykon and fail to beat his Damage Reduction, achieving the same progress that eight goblins attacking individually would make?

I'm confused, I thought you were trying to refute my point about the goblins being completely irrelevant, not prove it.

I'm saying that having a huge number of goblins grant the Clerics bonuses to hit Xykon with whatever attacks they may choose to use is not irrelevant in the slightest.

[Dark Matter]

1. That phylactery is in-flippin'-destructible. Redcloak has it, but I really really doubt he can do anything to it.RC casts AntiMagicField and then hits it with a hammer. Or orders some goblin to do it.

[zimmerwald1915]

RC casts AntiMagicField and then hits it with a hammer. Or orders some goblin to do it.
Or he dismisses his own spells which, as the caster, he can do.

[Thanatosia]

Or he dismisses his own spells which, as the caster, he can do.
RC only cast the spells on the fake Phylactery - and from what Xykon said regaurding to the wardings he put on it I doubt he even fully duplicated them - just did enough to make it pass a quick magical inspection as part of the deception, Xykon cast the defenses on the original I'm pretty sure - and I infer from his comment on them that they are way more extensive then a few stock spells cast in rapid sucession.

At the very least I'd expect it to have been Polymorph any object'ed into Adamant, wich will take more then an AMZ + Hammer to break.

[Olinser]

Xykon was rather worried about the possibility of the Azurites being able to destroy it when he was losing against Soon Kim, enough to attempt abandoning the battle entirely and trying to get Redcloak out of there.

I'd say it's destructible, but will just take a while to peel away all the layers of protection. Give him a day or two and maybe a few scrolls or an arcane caster to help, and it's toast

Exactly - NOTHING in the OOTS verse is indestructible - and Xykon confirmed that the phylactery is very vulnerable. Otherwise, he's the kind of guy that would have laughed in Soon's face.

If Redcloak is planning on destroying the phylactery, presumably he's got time on his hands. Redcloak has already shown with Implosion he can cast level 9 spells.

Possible ways he can destroy the phylactery that I can think of, which don't require Redcloak spend time researching his own spell to do it:

1) Anti-Magic Field + big hammer
2) Greater Dispel Magic + big hammer or Disintegrate
3) Miracle (I'd assume his deity would be willing to destroy Xykon, otherwise he'd just stop letting Redcloak cast any spell that would harm the phylactery)

Even if the phylactery has Epic spells, if Xykon is level 21, that gives his spell a DC of 32 vs Redcloak's d20+caster level check to dispel it. Redcloak just needs a decent roll, and if he's at a stage he's going to destroy the phylactery, either Xykon's body is already dead or someplace he can't interfere for an extended period of time. Redcloak will have enough time to sit around and cast until he gets a high roll (or a 20). Even if he needs a natural 20 to dispel the protection, it's the same principle V used against the dragon - as long as there's a chance, if you've got the time, you can afford to wait for a 20.

[Ninja Dragon]

It all comes down to planning. Both Malack and Redcloak are smart, and have tons of different spells available. Also, Redcloak knows Xykon better than anybody. If he makes a plan based in Xykon's weak points, he might be able to win.

The only problem is that he (probably) doesn't know about the MitD.

[dps]

RC only cast the spells on the fake Phylactery - and from what Xykon said regaurding to the wardings he put on it I doubt he even fully duplicated them - just did enough to make it pass a quick magical inspection as part of the deception, Xykon cast the defenses on the original I'm pretty sure - and I infer from his comment on them that they are way more extensive then a few stock spells cast in rapid sucession.

At the very least I'd expect it to have been Polymorph any object'ed into Adamant, wich will take more then an AMZ + Hammer to break.


Xykon specifically mentions spells that "we" put on the phylactery--he and Redcloak both cast spells on it.

And not only can Redcloak dismiss his own spells on it, he probably actually knows which spells Xykon cast on it, which is a big advantage over anybody else, who would probably waste time trying things that have no chance of working.

[ArlEammon]

I wish I knew what Monster in the Darkness is.

Maybe Malack could somehow zombify or vampirize or magically undead it somehow.

(Undead as a verb, ha)!

[Manga Shoggoth]

Xykon specifically mentions spells that "we" put on the phylactery--he and Redcloak both cast spells on it.

And not only can Redcloak dismiss his own spells on it, he probably actually knows which spells Xykon cast on it, which is a big advantage over anybody else, who would probably waste time trying things that have no chance of working.

I suspect that that was the Royal "We".

SOD Spoilers:

When the philactry was created, Xykon was unable to cast spells as a result of Lirian's anti-magic user "plague". This means that Readcloak was the only person casting spells on it.

Now it may be that further spells were cast on it later, but Readcloak seems to think he knows all of them as he was presumably casting the same spells on the fake one, in which case I suppose it all depends on whether Xykon could be expected to tell the difference.

[Stormlock]

The phylactery is a non issue anyways. Redcloak can summon titanium elementals and pit fiends. Such a creature could effortlessly destroy the amulet even with all of it's protections functioning. DR 30-epic with -300 AC doesn't matter if the thing has 5 Hp (and as such a tiny object that is about the most it's gonna get) and is getting hit by a power attack for 80 until a natural 20 is rolled. Remember the dinosaur in the gladiator pit? Redcloak can summon a FIENDISH version of that. That bauble is toast as soon as he wants it to be.

As for the fight? Hard to say. Assuming Redcloak isn't vulnerable to death effects (and I can't imagine he is, the crimson mantle probably has him covered there) Xykon is kind of in trouble. Energy drain is great against idiots that don't dodge/protect against it, but with that off the table, he's just throwing meteor swarms. He doesn't have anything truly scary like Time Stop or Wish or Gate or Summon Monsters 9. Frankly Redcloak + a summoned army could probably take Xykon out, or at least force him to flee. Malack is just icing, and those Flame Strikes WOULD be a measure of unavoidable damage. Heal and Harm would keep both of them alive through any number of Meteor Swarms, especially after a fire resist spell.

Ultimately I'd expect it to be a stalemate because neither can catch the other if they want to leave. If it were a cage match, Redcloak wins with summons. If it were a cage match in a dimensionally locked area... probably boils down to saving throws. If Redcloak is making saving throws, he can afford to cast Heal every other round instead of every round, and mix in some offense (which Xykon has no means of quickly recovering from.) If he can mix in enough offense between healing spells, he can beat Xykon before he runs out of healing spells.

[Lord Torath]

EDIT: Not to mention (SoD spoiler) Mitd will eat Redcloak if he betrays Xykon.
This is the 2nd time I've seen this mentioned. I must have missed it in the book. Can you give me an approximate page range?

Malack is just icing, and those Flame Strikes WOULD be a measure of unavoidable damage..
Xyxkon has a magic item that protects him from fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html). Flamestrike would be useless...

[Olinser]

This is the 2nd time I've seen this mentioned. I must have missed it in the book. Can you give me an approximate page range?

Xyxkon has a magic item that protects him from fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html). Flamestrike would be useless...

If I recall it was right after Xykon encountered the MiTD the first time, when they rescued it from the circus, AFTER he was a lich - about 2/3 of the way through, I think?

I believe his exact words were, "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, devour him whole and spit out that amulet he wears."

[SaintRidley]

This is the 2nd time I've seen this mentioned. I must have missed it in the book. Can you give me an approximate page range?


Page 96, panel 8.

[Lamech]

If they get the drop on Xykon, have a good trap laid... maybe. Anti-magic field+grapple could ruin Xykon's whole day. He doesn't have the strength in his bare hands to kill the vampire snake. And despite being an epic lich, he's BAB probably is roughly comparable to Durkon's. The MitD won't follow Xykon's mind control once he's in an anti-magic field.

To paraphrase a couple of OotS characters: "So many spells, so few that can be cast while grappled." and "What happens if we turn off magic? It appears you are just a skeleton. While I am still a ancient vampire lord."

Also if they go the grapple route the hobgoblin army becomes very useful. Assist another still helps while grappling.

OTOH Xykon might have an epic spell that can be fired while grappled. (Or apply sudden still to it.)

[Incom]

Xykon's been shown doing Still Meteor Swarm. You'd have to find ways around that sort of thing.

[TopCheese]

This is the 2nd time I've seen this mentioned. I must have missed it in the book. Can you give me an approximate page range?

Xyxkon has a magic item that protects him from fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html). Flamestrike would be useless...

Isn't 1/2 of the damage "divine" damage though?

Plus with spell research on the table... SonicStrike sounds quite nice.

[ReaderAt2046]

It all comes down to planning. Both Malack and Redcloak are smart, and have tons of different spells available. Also, Redcloak knows Xykon better than anybody. If he makes a plan based in Xykon's weak points, he might be able to win.

The only problem is that he (probably) doesn't know about the MitD.

Also with this newest strip, we have another powerful divine caster on the Malack-Redcloack team, and I imagine that with Malack's known abilities it could be pretty simple to stop Xykon. Just have Malack grapple him, and then the other two spam positive energy on him until he's dead. Then spend a few days figuring out how to destroy the phylactery (or just chuck it into one of the rifts.)

[TopCheese]

Also with this newest strip, we have another powerful divine caster on the Malack-Redcloack team, and I imagine that with Malack's known abilities it could be pretty simple to stop Xykon. Just have Malack grapple him, and then the other two spam positive energy on him until he's dead. Then spend a few days figuring out how to destroy the phylactery (or just chuck it into one of the rifts.)

I see that being very anti climatic and awesome.

To bad Malack and Red Cloak couldn't have met first...

[Clistenes]

Even if Xykon is kind enough to have the fight in the middle of Gobbotopia and RC manages to convince all the hobgoblins to fight against Xykon,
1. That phylactery is in-flippin'-destructible. Redcloak has it, but I really really doubt he can do anything to it.
2. Xykon can cast Overland Flight and run away. And that's assuming he can't just win outright.

EDIT: Not to mention (SoD spoiler) Mitd will eat Redcloak if he betrays Xykon.

1. Redcloak is the one who casted the spells protecting the phylactery, he can just dismiss them.
2. If Redcloak where to fight Xykon they would prepare something like a flying mount (summoned or created) or buy a magic item allowing flight or just prepare a cleric spell that gives you a flight speed like Greater Visage of the Deity, or throw Xykon to the ground with Downdraft.

As for Mitd, he isn't next to Xykon and Redcloak all the time, and he may be able to make a will save and resist the compulsion to eat Redcloak.

That said, Xykon could have a secret epic spell able to instantly turn the other two into ashes.


Also with this newest strip, we have another powerful divine caster on the Malack-Redcloack team, and I imagine that with Malack's known abilities it could be pretty simple to stop Xykon. Just have Malack grapple him, and then the other two spam positive energy on him until he's dead. Then spend a few days figuring out how to destroy the phylactery (or just chuck it into one of the rifts.)

Xykon is able to cast Meteor Swarm while grappled, and has a ring that grants him immunity to positive energy attacks.

[Stormlock]

And if he can cast Meteor Swarm while grappled, he can definitely cast Ghostform while grappled too, which would also make him immune to touch attacks I'd assume. Not that he's smart enough to use that overpowered spell in combat.

[Snails]

Xykon's personal weakness is his hitpoints. It is difficult to imagine how he could have more than 200. He could easily have as few as 140. That is pitable few at these high levels for someone who lacks a single dependable ally. (That Tsukiko gave Redcloak an excuse for snuffing her was an unfortunate turn of events for Xykon.)

Xykon's phylactery's weakness is that all or most of the protections are known or probably cast by Redcloack himself. As a sorceror Xykon just does not have a very long spell list, so having surprises that will catch Redcloak unawares is difficult. A very skilled magic item creator could find ways around that limit, but it is unlikely that Xykon has such talent.

[Lamech]

Xykon's been shown doing Still Meteor Swarm. You'd have to find ways around that sort of thing.

Hence the importance of an anti-magic field. That will shut down all his non-epic magic. And stuff like rod of metamagic X.


Xykon's personal weakness is his hitpoints. It is difficult to imagine how he could have more than 200. He could easily have as few as 140. That is pitable few at these high levels for someone who lacks a single dependable ally. (That Tsukiko gave Redcloak an excuse for snuffing her was an unfortunate turn of events for Xykon.)

Actually he could have quite a few more hitpoints than you would think. Redcloak almost certainly made him in a desecrated area barring stupidity. Redcloak (or the his artifact mantle itself) might have something along the lines of the corpsecrafter feat. That gives Xykon +4HP/HD. Then when you consider he's level 21+ he could easily have over 200 hp.

[gorocz]

I've got a question about the phylactery - in #662 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Xykon is worried that his phylactery could end up in a sea serpent. Is it because the sea serpent might destroy it (even through all the protective spells) or is it that he wouldn't like to get respawned inside a sea serpent or maybe he couldn't? Maybe you need a certain amount of space to start respawning? If he should respawn just like he did in #117 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html), he should be able to cast spells through Still Spell right away (without the rest of his body), kill it and regenerate properly. But if he needs the actual space to even start regenerating, or he can't cast anything until he regenerates (he didn't cast anything the whole time he was regenerating before), then all RC has to do, is to put the phylactery in something small (say, meld it into a stone wall) and doesn't have to worry about Xykon regenerating...

[SaintRidley]

I've got a question about the phylactery - in #662 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Xykon is worried that his phylactery could end up in a sea serpent. Is it because the sea serpent might destroy it (even through all the protective spells) or is it that he wouldn't like to get respawned inside a sea serpent or maybe he couldn't? Maybe you need a certain amount of space to start respawning? If he should respawn just like he did in #117 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html), he should be able to cast spells through Still Spell right away (without the rest of his body), kill it and regenerate properly. But if he needs the actual space to even start regenerating, or he can't cast anything until he regenerates (he didn't cast anything the whole time he was regenerating before), then all RC has to do, is to put the phylactery in something small (say, meld it into a stone wall) and doesn't have to worry about Xykon regenerating...

Getting respawned inside a sea serpent's stomach would probably subject his regrowing body to constant acid damage. Given the way respawning seems to work here, that might destroy Xyon's body in the process of respawning. Thus, he'd be stuck endlessly respawning, never able to cast spells again.


That's the best I can come up with.

[Nephrahim]

Getting respawned inside a sea serpent's stomach would probably subject his regrowing body to constant acid damage. Given the way respawning seems to work here, that might destroy Xyon's body in the process of respawning. Thus, he'd be stuck endlessly respawning, never able to cast spells again.


That's the best I can come up with.

This is how I interpreted it as well. Unless we think he can cast spells as a soul stuck INSIDE the phylactery, I think he'd be screwed in that situation.

[gorocz]

Getting respawned inside a sea serpent's stomach would probably subject his regrowing body to constant acid damage. Given the way respawning seems to work here, that might destroy Xyon's body in the process of respawning. Thus, he'd be stuck endlessly respawning, never able to cast spells again.


That's the best I can come up with.

Ok, that makes sense. I kept imagining Xykon's phylactery inside of a Sea Serpent's stomach as something like Jonah inside the whale (or at least as it used to be depicted in cartoons :smallbiggrin:)

[Tragak]

Ok, that makes sense. I kept imagining Xykon's phylactery inside of a Sea Serpent's stomach as something like Jonah inside the whale (or at least as it used to be depicted in cartoons :smallbiggrin:)

Plus, the phylactery itself might be in danger. Sure, an adventuring party's worth of acid spells, easy to fix, but the stomach of a sea serpent with no chance of every getting out? Just give it a few months. Which, to Xykon, means as much as a few days does to us, right?

[Olinser]

Xykon's personal weakness is his hitpoints. It is difficult to imagine how he could have more than 200. He could easily have as few as 140. That is pitable few at these high levels for someone who lacks a single dependable ally. (That Tsukiko gave Redcloak an excuse for snuffing her was an unfortunate turn of events for Xykon.)

Xykon's phylactery's weakness is that all or most of the protections are known or probably cast by Redcloack himself. As a sorceror Xykon just does not have a very long spell list, so having surprises that will catch Redcloak unawares is difficult. A very skilled magic item creator could find ways around that limit, but it is unlikely that Xykon has such talent.

Maybe, but Xykon has specifically stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) that he's bored because he has to be awake 24 hours and he can only spend 8 hours a day crafting magic items - implying that he spends 8 hours a day crafting magic items just to relieve his boredom. Given his ADD and temperament, who KNOWS what kind of crazy stuff he's crafted by accident or because he was bored and thought, "I'll create a magic item that summons 1000 fiendish rabid wolverines on command, PERFECT!"