3.5 A good sixth level spell

[Snowbluff]

So I have this horrible monstrosity of a sorcerer, and before I defaulted to Disintegrate, I was wondering if you guys had any better ideas for a sixth level spell? Don't direct me to a handbook.

[Krobar]

What are some of his other spells? Does he have a theme of some sort (i.e. blaster, fear-o-mancer, summoner, etc.)

[Snowbluff]

What are some of his other spells? Does he have a theme of some sort (i.e. blaster, fear-o-mancer, summoner, etc.)

No theme. This is in general. He has a bunch of the really good/cheap spells (Celerity, Wings of Cover/Flurry, Power Word Pain, Arcane Fusion). No summoning, please. SM VI monsters seem rather weak.

[Psyren]

What books do you have available?

[Snowbluff]

What books do you have available?

ALL OF THEM! O.O

But seriously, it doesn't matter. My selection of spells is a hint that books aren't a problem. WotC 3.0 and 3.5 are preferable. :smallwink:

[Karnith]

I have always liked Freezing Fog (in the Spell Compendium), which is battlefield control and debuffing: it creates a solid fog effect, within which enemies must make a Reflex save every round or fall prone and make a Balance check to move.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Greater Dispel Magic and Freezing Fog are generally some of your best options for a 6th level position. I'd be spending those slots on Fell Drain Black Tentacles or Wings of Flurry.

The game has built-in methods of getting around the limited spell selection anyway (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4).

[Crake]

Planar binding, bind yourself some couatls and get them to do your casting for you :smalltongue:

[Agincourt]

No summoning, please. SM VI monsters seem rather weak.

You aren't limited to the Summon Monster VI monsters. You can instead summon 1d3 5th level monsters, or 1d4+1 of any creature from a lower list.

If you just don't care for summoning, then that's fine, but you should know that you can summon any creature from the 1st through 6th level list.

[Venger]

Greater Dispel Magic and Freezing Fog are generally some of your best options for a 6th level position. I'd be spending those slots on Fell Drain Black Tentacles or Wings of Flurry.

The game has built-in methods of getting around the limited spell selection anyway (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4).

I'll do you one better:

kyristan's malevolent tentacles

black tentacles, but a 6th.

what's that? same as fell drain?

nope! this makes them save vs a negative level every round. you can swap out black tentacles, because there's never a reason to cast that over this.

[Morcleon]

Extract Water Elemental is a fun spell. CLd6 of untyped (dessiccation) damage, Fort half, and if they die, you get a free water elemental! :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Do you like Necromancy? Can you manage Spellstitching? Can you stand the cheesiness of turning any given PC-classed humanoid enemy into a permanent minion?

Animate Dread Warrior may be right for you. It appears in Unapproachable East.

[Snowbluff]

Never played with Animate Dread warrior. Not sure if it's right for this campaign, since we have like 6 members.



The game has built-in methods of getting around the limited spell selection anyway (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4).Good idea, but I actually own a Runestaff. It has some of the Orb spells on it. That doesn't change my question. I've got one slot to fill for my permanent list. In short, stop being right. (http://youtu.be/CX8NsJn_KpM?t=4s) :smalltongue:

Dispel Magic will be my second sixth level spell, for when I level. Thanks. :smallsmile:


You aren't limited to the Summon Monster VI monsters. You can instead summon 1d3 5th level monsters, or 1d4+1 of any creature from a lower list.

If you just don't care for summoning, then that's fine, but you should know that you can summon any creature from the 1st through 6th level list.My problem with summoning is that most of the monsters aren't worth the paperwork. It seems like I'd be better off summoning Phantom Steeds to get in everyone's way.


Extract Water Elemental is a fun spell. CLd6 of untyped (dessiccation) damage, Fort half, and if they die, you get a free water elemental! :smallbiggrin:

Most of the things we've been fight have either had good fort or no fluids in their bodies. :smallfrown:

[nedz]

Assuming it's your first 6th level spell it ought to be something you can spam.

Also I don't know what holes you have in your options, but if you were thinking about Disintegrate I'm guessing not many.

From the PH:
Wall of Iron — a nice blocker and a fun thing to tip over onto people. You can tip it over, yes ?
True Seeing is a must at some point, but you probably want that next level.
Contingency is also solid, but that you will have to wait for that one.
Disintegrate — rolling lots of dice is fun, as you already know.

From the SpC:
Plenty of fun spells; but it's hard to know what would suit you, and not all say spam me.
Fleshshiver looks amusing. Stun with a likely Fort save, Damage and then Nausea on a second.
Illusory Pit is like Grease on Acid, definitely worth a look.
Bite of the Weretiger is good, but do you gish ? I suspect not.

[avr]

If you have the orbs you have blasting covered well enough that disintegrate won't change much. Contingency OTOH is a game changer. Don't leave home without it.

[avr]

I'm assuming that you have enough metamagic to make use of otherwise unused 6th level spell slots, of course.

[ericgrau]

Odd, that wouldn't be anywhere near my first choice. There's repulsion. Wall of iron if you don't already have a wall. Chain lightning. Contingency. Mass bear's endurance. Maybe greater heroism.

After 1 or 2 of those then I might pick up disintegrate. Not because it's anywhere near 3rd best for combat, it isn't, but after getting a nice combat spell or two it would be nice to pick up something that is also good between combat for taking out dungeon walls & doors. Or it can be used in combat too, mostly for undead. Likewise there are a few other spells like greater dispel magic or true seeing that I might take after offense was covered.

[Pickford]

So I have this horrible monstrosity of a sorcerer, and before I defaulted to Disintegrate, I was wondering if you guys had any better ideas for a sixth level spell? Don't direct me to a handbook.

Disintigrate is your best friend, and as a sorceror you want at least one direct damage spell per level (at least as far as 7th level spells)

The important thing is you can also use it to bypass magically trapped/locked doors (just demolish the wall next to that magically trapped door), surprise enemies (oops I disintigrated the floor under you), provide an escape route for a party trapped in: Any force effect/cage and so forth.

I personally enjoy Ruby Ray of Reversal (SpC) as well for it's ability to deny nice things to other mages.

If you don't pick Disintigrate, remember you want something that you're going to cast 'many' times a day, not just a one and done. Gotta play to the Sorc strengths.

[Psyren]

Disintegrate is my choice too. GDM is nice except the cleric gets it too, same with SMVI (and you seem to have a lot of meat in your party for summoning anyway.) Ruby Ray of Reversal is a really good toolbox as well, and does something the cleric can't easily replicate. (Though for most of the things it bypasses, Disintegrate works just as well, while also being a blast.)

Freezing Fog is good but not very spammable - how many of those do you need in one fight anyway?

[Draz74]

Acid Fog if you need more battlefield control. Brilliant Blade if you want a good new buff to use on a non-caster ally. Howling Chain ... nah, probably not. Mislead ... nah, probably not. Mass Suggestion if you want more social power over NPCs. Illusory Pit if you have felt a dearth of non-Mind-affecting Will Save options. Ruby Ray of Reversal, as mentioned, is generally awesome.

(Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Mental Pinnacle, or Shalantha's Delicate Disk are potent if you combine them with various cheese.)

But yeah, Disintegrate and Greater Dispel Magic are definitely competitive options.


Odd, that wouldn't be anywhere near my first choice. There's repulsion. Wall of iron if you don't already have a wall. Chain lightning. Contingency. Mass bear's endurance. Maybe greater heroism.

After 1 or 2 of those then I might pick up disintegrate.

Repulsion is ok. It serves dual purposes as a defensive spell and a battlefield control spell. But at this level, there are probably better options if you think you can get enemies to fail a Will save.

I prefer Wall of Stone over Wall of Iron. Shaping your wall flexibly seems much more powerful than the off-chance of being able to crush a foe under a knocked-over Wall of Iron. (Assuming the DM won't let you break the economy and gain infinite wealth from Wall of Iron, of course.)

Chain Lightning is an ok blasting spell, but badly outclassed by Wings of Flurry. Very little reason to add Chain Lightning if he already has WoF.

Contingency is not a good choice for a Sorcerer, because it's not a spam-style spell. It lasts for days on each casting, so if you want contingent effects (which are a good idea), but you're willing to play cautiously enough that you only use them occasionally, it's feasible to get them in Scroll form instead.

Mass Bear's Endurance ... could be worth it, depending on how big the party is, how good the party's non-HP defenses are, how many of the party already have enhancement bonuses to Constitution, and (in order to avoid the annoying effect where everyone dies when the spell's duration ends) how good the party's multi-target healing abilities are. But unless all of these effects line up, it's probably not a great choice.

Greater Heroism is ... arguably worse than Heroism. Pass.

In contrast to all of these, Disintegrate, while it's only occasionally an awesome spell in combat (usually vs. Undead or Constructs), is fantastic for out-of-combat utility. Doors, walls, floors, ceilings, MacGuffins ... so many of them are annoyances that Disintegrate can get rid of.

[JeminiZero]

Some non SpC ideas:

-Karmic Retribution (Complete Mage. Swift action cast, Attackers Save vs Stun 1/round each)
-Call Twilight Defender (Dragon Magic, available to Druid but not Cleric. Summons a 8 HD plant of CR 7 as a full round spell, making it harder to disrupt than standard SM.)
-Mudslide (Stormwrack, save vs getting buried, and leaves difficult terrain after that)
-Freezing Glance (Frostburn. Save vs effectively stun, enchantment but NOT mind affecting 1/round)

[ericgrau]

Spells

The idea with repulsion is that not everyone has to fail their save, not that everyone will fail saves against your spells. If some pass, that will in fact scatter foes more which is exactly what you want to do with battlefield control. Melee allies are going away from you so it shouldn't bother them. Mass suggestion is ok too but many things are immune. And it's often hard to target everyone on the field, or that will be on the field later for that matter. I found that out the hard way once when I made slow my first level 6 choice with no backup.

Wall of stone is too small to bend it much over any significant distance. At best you might get an L, and even that is pushing it. Usually they're made straight in a hallway anyway because of the small area. It's also pretty easy for any melee to take it down with a single full attack. Wall of iron is significantly better because you don't need a stone surface to attach it to so it's available more often, and it has double the hit points. Wall of force is of course even more resilient, but wall of iron is permanent. As a sorcerer I wouldn't take a 2nd wall if he already has one, but if not then wall of iron works well.

I selected mass bear endurance specifically rather than another ability score because everyone needs hp and con is everybody's secondary stat. Sure you can find cases when you don't use it, but everybody uses it far more than anything else. Between 4 party members increasing hp it adds up to having the equivalent of a 5th person to soak damage from only 1 round of effort.

He only gets 1 spell now and a couple later, with many options from a variety of books, so I'm not gonna split hairs over the rest of what I brought up.

In any case they're all head and shoulders above disintegrate, greater dispel magic and most other utility. As are a lot of spells. Being nice when you use it... has that annoying "when you use it part". First you pick something you can use all the time and you put it in your most powerful position, his 6th level spells. If you start with spells that you use only a little bit, you'll be resorting to weaker options most of the time and may as well be a lower level character. I could see taking disintegrate if he's almost always in dungeons, and yet they don't have walls protected by DM fiat or the module (Underdark comes to mind). And if he already has very strong 5th level combat spells, rather than other utility. Greater dispel magic OTOH... even in Underdark where the whole place practically seeps magic it's useful in maybe 15% of gaming sessions. And he can dispel and dispel again with regular dispel magic at only a -2, without being tight on spells known space for it. At this level greater dispel magic isn't just bad, it's horrendously bad. Not even in the ballpark of a consideration until later.

[Vaz]

Alert Bebilith, BoVD.

One random creature within 100ft gets grappled by a Bebilith, and then Plane Shifted with the holding Bebilith. No Save, No SR, just death. It's 25ft +5/2. if you can Enlarge to make it 50ft/+5 every 2 levels means that at 20th, sit at 100ft, and launch Bebiliths at the enemy for No Save, No SR, just instant death spells. Sadly, unless it's a Demon, there's no way you can designate the target.

Chasing Perfection; +4 Enhancement to all Stats.

Cloak of Hate; Fancy becoming King? Cast this on the King, and watch all those who don't know him all that well (usually anyone but his inner circle and family) who see him try to lynch him.

Mineralize Warrior - try it on your Familiar for fun. It has the same HP you do, but there's no mention of Hit Dice, so it just uses its own.

[Xenogears]

Alert Bebilith, BoVD.

One random creature within 100ft gets grappled by a Bebilith, and then Plane Shifted with the holding Bebilith. No Save, No SR, just death. It's 25ft +5/2. if you can Enlarge to make it 50ft/+5 every 2 levels means that at 20th, sit at 100ft, and launch Bebiliths at the enemy for No Save, No SR, just instant death spells.

1) It only works on Demons and if you try it when there isn't a Demon nearby the Bebelith tries to kill you.

2) You need to make a caster level check + (12-the HD of the target Demon) and if you don't get at least a 22 there is a good chance the Bebelith will go after you or an ally.

All in all it's actually a pretty terrible spell.

[Vaz]

No, it doesn't try and kill you. It chooses a random creature. Admittedly, it may be you, but when you Enlarge it (at 20, without other Caster level boost), that allows you to sit at 100ft range, and throw in a load of bebiliths.

At lower levels, it's absolutely hilarious, but also additional XP as your ally goes all Benny Hill trying to avoid a Bebilith.

if there's no Demon around, the Bebilith is always treated as rolling 10-11. It's useful as a last resort against a BBEG, when all your other party members lie dead.

Admittedly, due to lack of True Seeing and Flight, if it's a friendly character just cast either/both of those against the Bebilith to keep it safe from the Plane Shift Grapple, while the rest of the party deals damage to it. Free XP, like I said.

[Xenogears]

No, it doesn't try and kill you. It chooses a random creature. Admittedly, it may be you, but when you Enlarge it (at 20, without other Caster level boost), that allows you to sit at 100ft range, and throw in a load of bebiliths.

At lower levels, it's absolutely hilarious, but also additional XP as your ally goes all Benny Hill trying to avoid a Bebilith.

if there's no Demon around, the Bebilith is always treated as rolling 10-11. It's useful as a last resort against a BBEG, when all your other party members lie dead.

Admittedly, due to lack of True Seeing and Flight, if it's a friendly character just cast either/both of those against the Bebilith to keep it safe from the Plane Shift Grapple, while the rest of the party deals damage to it. Free XP, like I said.

100ft is still in the "random target" range. Admittedly I misread and thought that the lack of a Demon resulted in the Bebelith auto attacking you but even still it's not very useful.

If it's just the party vs the BBEG there is a 4 in 5 chance (assuming 4 person party somewhat nearby) that the Bebelith tries to attack you or an ally.

If there are a ton of minions around then chances are it will kill one of them instead.

Also it only tries to grapple them so anything that defeats grappling defeats the Bebelith as well.

Pretty sure you don't get any XP for screwing up your own summon spell btw.

[Vaz]

Eh, it's not TO, I agree. Still, good when it works, hilarity when it doesn't. How randomness is determined is also questionable; after all it's only average intelligence.

[Venger]

1) It only works on Demons and if you try it when there isn't a Demon nearby the Bebelith tries to kill you.

2) You need to make a caster level check + (12-the HD of the target Demon) and if you don't get at least a 22 there is a good chance the Bebelith will go after you or an ally.

All in all it's actually a pretty terrible spell.

it still functions (albeit differently) if there aren't any demons around.


No, it doesn't try and kill you. It chooses a random creature. Admittedly, it may be you, but when you Enlarge it (at 20, without other Caster level boost), that allows you to sit at 100ft range, and throw in a load of bebiliths.

At lower levels, it's absolutely hilarious, but also additional XP as your ally goes all Benny Hill trying to avoid a Bebilith.

if there's no Demon around, the Bebilith is always treated as rolling 10-11. It's useful as a last resort against a BBEG, when all your other party members lie dead.

Admittedly, due to lack of True Seeing and Flight, if it's a friendly character just cast either/both of those against the Bebilith to keep it safe from the Plane Shift Grapple, while the rest of the party deals damage to it. Free XP, like I said.
you can also use it in tandem with project image (or trickery devotion) in order to remain immune to the effect without dropping cash on an enlarge metamagic rod (which are pretty darn expensive for a 6th lvl slot)

[Draz74]

The idea with repulsion is that not everyone has to fail their save, not that everyone will fail saves against your spells. If some pass, that will in fact scatter foes more which is exactly what you want to do with battlefield control. Melee allies are going away from you so it shouldn't bother them. Mass suggestion is ok too but many things are immune. And it's often hard to target everyone on the field, or that will be on the field later for that matter. I found that out the hard way once when I made slow my first level 6 choice with no backup.
Yeah, I was suggesting Mass Suggestion for non-combat use. Interesting point about the scattering foes, though. Makes Repulsion highly dependent on how many foes you tend to face at once. Could be worth it if the OP always fights large numbers.


I selected mass bear endurance specifically rather than another ability score because everyone needs hp and con is everybody's secondary stat. Sure you can find cases when you don't use it, but everybody uses it far more than anything else.
Oh, no argument here. In most parties, it's absolutely head and shoulders over all the other Mass Wombat's Boost options. But I would still hesitate to spend a precious early standard action on it for the reasons I listed before. (Honestly, just giving temp HP instead of HP that disappear when the duration expires would be a big help. Although even then, there's the issue that people are eventually going to have items that give them non-stacking CON boosts.)


In any case they're all head and shoulders above disintegrate, greater dispel magic and most other utility. As are a lot of spells. Being nice when you use it... has that annoying "when you use it part". First you pick something you can use all the time and you put it in your most powerful position, his 6th level spells. If you start with spells that you use only a little bit, you'll be resorting to weaker options most of the time and may as well be a lower level character.
At this level, L6 spell slots are rather scarce resource; only 3-4 per day. Spell slots L0-L5, on the other hand, are a ridiculously abundant resource: approximately 42/day. Because of this, my philosophy wouldn't be to fire off my best spells from my L6 slots ASAP. I would prefer to have lower-level spells that are still effective, and burn my 42/day slots routinely, while saving my L6 slots for when the crap hits the fan. After all, if the worst comes to the worst, those L6 slots can always be used to cast lower-level spells if my L6 spells aren't useful; especially if I have good Metamagic choices, which any optimized Sorcerer should. (Empowered Wings of Flurry or Heightened Wings of Flurry seem like very worthy uses of a L6 slot to me.)


I could see taking disintegrate if he's almost always in dungeons, and yet they don't have walls protected by DM fiat or the module (Underdark comes to mind). And if he already has very strong 5th level combat spells, rather than other utility.
Fair enough. Agree to disagree on this one.


Greater dispel magic OTOH... even in Underdark where the whole place practically seeps magic it's useful in maybe 15% of gaming sessions.
Well, obviously that statistic is highly campaign-dependent. The value I place on Greater Dispel also has to do with the philosophy I describe above: the most dangerous combats are probably going to be the ones where foes have magic helping them out, which means having a Dispel as the "big gun" in your pocket is rather timely.


And he can dispel and dispel again with regular dispel magic at only a -2, without being tight on spells known space for it.
Now that's a good point. I concur, Greater Dispel Magic should certainly not be the OP's Level 12 choice.

[Snowbluff]

Disintegrate still seems to be the best choice. I was thinking about picking it p for a reason. This thread did remind me to pick up more illusions, however.