Chracter class ideas - need some suggestions

[ImaginaryDragon]

So my group had a near-TPK, and didn't have enough resources to rez everyone, and I was tired of my character anyways. The rest of my group is what you guys would call low-op (poor multiclassing being the main culprit i think) and I want to make a character that can power up our party. Group is currently lvl 6, we have a straight fighter who's nothing special, a favoured soul/sorcerer, and a ranger/paladin. What can I do to get these guys kicking some ass that isn't going to completely out-do them? I would like it to be reasonably decent in melee combat.

[Elricaltovilla]

So my group had a near-TPK, and didn't have enough resources to rez everyone, and I was tired of my character anyways. The rest of my group is what you guys would call low-op (poor multiclassing being the main culprit i think) and I want to make a character that can power up our party. Group is currently lvl 6, we have a straight fighter who's nothing special, a favoured soul/sorcerer, and a ranger/paladin. What can I do to get these guys kicking some ass that isn't going to completely out-do them? I would like it to be reasonably decent in melee combat.

Well if you want to buff the party to supreme asskickery, then be a wizard. If you want to be good in Melee, be anything but a wizard.

I think druids make a good balance between the two though. You can wildshape into a combat form and use Natural Spell to cast buffs while shaped.

[Deaxsa]

i mean, what it sounds like is that you need some sort of buffer. i've never built one or played one, but i hear that when the party is not so great and one wants to play higher op without breaking the game or overshadowing your friends, buffer is the way to go. wizards, bards, and clerics can all be very good buffers (afaik).

[GreenETC]

Either go for a Transmuter Wizard or an Inspire Courage Bard. That will help turn your party around. Of course, if you wanted to go even farther, you could go Bard & Warblade/Crusader and buff the party as well as dealing decent damage.

[Xenogears]

Marshal 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 10. Use Snowflake Wardance to add to your combat prowess, Words of Creation + Dragonfire Inspiration to add ton of d6 to all your party members attacks (and your own), Marshal 1 lets you add Cha to Cha checks to be the ultimate party face or Cha to Dex checks to help your party be more stealthy and have better initiative, and Sublime Chord gives you fullcasting.

[Amnestic]

Marshal 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 10. Use Snowflake Wardance to add to your combat prowess, Words of Creation + Dragonfire Inspiration to add ton of d6 to all your party members attacks (and your own), Marshal 1 lets you add Cha to Cha checks to be the ultimate party face or Cha to Dex checks to help your party be more stealthy and have better initiative, and Sublime Chord gives you fullcasting.

Marshal 1/Bard 7/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 is better in my opinion. Virtuoso to progress SC casting, but it offers more skillpoints and marginally better songs.

[Feint's End]

Either go for a Transmuter Wizard or an Inspire Courage Bard. That will help turn your party around. Of course, if you wanted to go even farther, you could go Bard & Warblade/Crusader and buff the party as well as dealing decent damage.

as a bardsader he would outdo the fighter and paladin in everything and in addition be a better support.

Well straight bard is always a good idea. They can be reasonable melees with the right songs and feats (especially since the rest of your group ist really low op) while being good casters (not as good as sorcerers though). Probably your safest bet.

Another build I read about somewhere and another player in your position hat good success with was the Warweaver Prc. Basically he played a wizard focused on buffing and used the weave to buff all his teammates to new hights. You are just improving their performance but they are still doing the main work. Great way to include a stronger character into a low op group.
If you build the character the right way you would even be a decent melee-fighter (I mean except for Polymorph ... duh).

The bard is probably somewhat easier to build but both are perfectly viable in increasing your teams overall potential while not overshadowing the others in their chosen areas.
The mage would probably be the wiser choice though since your group is lacking an intelligence-monster and I'd suggest you take at least 1 point in every knowledge and the Skilltrick Collector of Stories. Help your party identify enemies.

Hope could be of any help. If you have more questions to one of the builds ask then I look some feats and multiclassing-paths up.

[Feint's End]

Marshal 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 10. Use Snowflake Wardance to add to your combat prowess, Words of Creation + Dragonfire Inspiration to add ton of d6 to all your party members attacks (and your own), Marshal 1 lets you add Cha to Cha checks to be the ultimate party face or Cha to Dex checks to help your party be more stealthy and have better initiative, and Sublime Chord gives you fullcasting.

also great build .... you could even increasie it further by going Marshal 1/Bard 8/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9 (increasing Sublime Chord casting)
has better songs than the before mentioned build

edit: Oh .... Amnestic was faster. His suggestion is even somewhat stronger.

Only thing is they already have one charisma-caster and a paladin so I'd still suggest going the Mage route but both should work just fine. Depends on your personal taste.

[Amnestic]

also great build .... you could even increasie it further by going Marshal 1/Bard 8/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9 (increasing Sublime Chord casting)
has better songs than the before mentioned build

Isn't the SC2 song pretty decent? I actually forget what it is but I remember it being desirable.

[Deox]

I feel a nod to Wizard / War Weaver should be included.

[Feint's End]

Isn't the SC2 song pretty decent? I actually forget what it is but I remember it being desirable.

Yep you're right .... edited that .... your suggestion is better :D

[Sception]

Bard's great support for a party that's already pretty good, this party might call for the more potent aid of a dedicated support wizard - focused on buffs, debuffs, & battlefield control. Check out Treantmonk's Guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards%3A_Being_a_God&post_num=5).

Of course, the wizard doesn't melee so hot. A cleric or (especially) druid can bring support abilities almost at the wizard's level (again, focus on buff, debuff, and battlefield control, use items for healing) while still functioning as effective melee participants themselves. Druid in particular might prove beneficial for this group, between support spells and two extra melee torsos between the companion and the wild-shaped druid.

Be prepared to do a ton of extra work, though. Druid's one of the most hassle-intensive classes in the game. Pay attention to the stats and abilities of your companion, keep a few separate character stat write-ups for your most common wild shape forms, be sure to read and re-read the updated shape shifting rules (I think the most recent are in the 3.5 Rules Compendium?) and know exactly what you keep, don't keep, gain, and don't gain from wild shape. Carefully review your available spells so you know what you want to memorize in what situations (and what you might want to buy or scribe in scroll form for situational use), so you don't hold up the party leafing through your spell list every in-game morning. Also, be sure to keep track of what all you can spontaneously summon and what their uses are - both in terms of combat abilities and in terms of any spell-like utility they might possess.

[ImaginaryDragon]

Well if you want to buff the party to supreme asskickery, then be a wizard. If you want to be good in Melee, be anything but a wizard.

I think druids make a good balance between the two though. You can wildshape into a combat form and use Natural Spell to cast buffs while shaped.

Druids don't have a whole lot of good party combat buffs that I can think of...isn't most of their stuff more focused on buffing themselves or their pets for combat, or utility things?

Thanks for the advice, guys.

One thing I was thinking about was mixing crusader and cleric to get another frontline melee character while still having some buffing going on. Is this workable? Not up to speed on cleric buffs for other characters. I know that combat buffing is supposed to be sub-par, especially if you yourself are trying to fight...

[Feint's End]

One thing I was thinking about was mixing crusader and cleric to get another frontline melee character while still having some buffing going on. Is this workable? Not up to speed on cleric buffs for other characters. I know that combat buffing is supposed to be sub-par, especially if you yourself are trying to fight...

First note that you should play what you want to play since after all it's a game. Second is ... that build is gonna overshadow the fighter and the paladin. I can tell you that pretty much for sure. Even straight crusader is way stronger than them not including the additional ass kicking from cleric.

If you still want to play the character and not mind being a follower of Wee Jas then I'd suggest going Ruby Knight Vindicator.
4 cleric/1 crusader/10 RKV/5 cleric. Gets 9th level spells and and 9th level 8th level maneuvers (at leat in theory ... would require splitting the RKV levels though). Very strong tank/melee while also doing most of the cleric goodies.

[Amphetryon]

Alternately, a Dread Necromancer/Dread Witch focusing on debuffs could improve the party's combat prowess by substantially reducing the abilities of the enemy. There's no requirement that DN be Evil, so a LN Character would avoid the wrath of the party's Paladin, particularly if you avoid the Corpsecrafter/Mother Cyst route.

[sambouchah]

Well if you want to buff the party to supreme asskickery, then be a wizard. If you want to be good in Melee, be anything but a wizard.

I think druids make a good balance between the two though. You can wildshape into a combat form and use Natural Spell to cast buffs while shaped.

5 level wizard, 1 level fighter. Combat casting and Battle casting(RoW) and set yourself up for spellsword maybe?

[ImaginaryDragon]

First note that you should play what you want to play since after all it's a game. Second is ... that build is gonna overshadow the fighter and the paladin. I can tell you that pretty much for sure. Even straight crusader is way stronger than them not including the additional ass kicking from cleric.

If you still want to play the character and not mind being a follower of Wee Jas then I'd suggest going Ruby Knight Vindicator.
4 cleric/1 crusader/10 RKV/5 cleric. Gets 9th level spells and and 9th level 8th level maneuvers (at leat in theory ... would require splitting the RKV levels though). Very strong tank/melee while also doing most of the cleric goodies.

How would going RKV be any less powerful?

And I don't mind being powerful, I can always save some for emergencies, I would just like to be powerful while enabling the rest of the group to do more.

They haven't even addressed it as an issue, I just feel bad lol

How can I make a cleric into a party buffing machine?

[Shining Wrath]

Marshal 1/Bard 7/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+8 is better in my opinion. Virtuoso to progress SC casting, but it offers more skillpoints and marginally better songs.

I'd like to point out to both of you that party is currently ECL 6 and OP wants near-term help.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm amused that people suggested playing druid or wizard in a low-op party. Recipe for disaster, much?

[Shining Wrath]

The canonical "can buff, can also fight" classes are Cleric and Paladin. There are numerous variants of those archetypes, with the Crusader generally ranked as most powerful.

If you want flavor and not-too-well-optimized, try a Bard / Crusader. Why yes you will have a MAD problem, which will keep you from overshadowing the party, but you'll have buffing abilities in a variety of ways.

[ImaginaryDragon]

The canonical "can buff, can also fight" classes are Cleric and Paladin. There are numerous variants of those archetypes, with the Crusader generally ranked as most powerful.

If you want flavor and not-too-well-optimized, try a Bard / Crusader. Why yes you will have a MAD problem, which will keep you from overshadowing the party, but you'll have buffing abilities in a variety of ways.

The more I think about it the less interest I have in Bard : / The whole performing arts thing just isn't my cup of tea, even though I love characters like Fflewddur Flam.

Any tips on Cleric buffing? I guess the main things are ways to keep buffs up for a reasonable time, and what the bread and butter buff spells are.

[Amphetryon]

The more I think about it the less interest I have in Bard : / The whole performing arts thing just isn't my cup of tea, even though I love characters like Fflewddur Flam.

Any tips on Cleric buffing? I guess the main things are ways to keep buffs up for a reasonable time, and what the bread and butter buff spells are.

Divine Metamagic: Persist (or simply Extend, if Persist is too OP for the group) and as many iterations of Extra Turning as the DM permits before letting books fly. Ask whether Nightsticks (from Libris Mortis) stack with each other, or with other methods of obtaining Extra Turning.

[Shining Wrath]

The more I think about it the less interest I have in Bard : / The whole performing arts thing just isn't my cup of tea, even though I love characters like Fflewddur Flam.

Any tips on Cleric buffing? I guess the main things are ways to keep buffs up for a reasonable time, and what the bread and butter buff spells are.

I never have liked the flavor of bard - The Giant has done the "try, try, try to hit the monster" etc. thing so well in OOTS. In stories bards have a very different mechanic and feel than in D&D.

If you go down the cleric path, Google for cleric handbooks. As for buffs, Shield of Faith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOfFaith.htm) is handy at level 1, Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) can save your bacon against mind-affecting monsters, and at level 2, there's a whole family of [Animal Name] [Quality] spells that let you add +4 to someone's ability score for a few minutes. At level 3, Prayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prayer.htm) is pretty much the quintessential buff; your side gets +1 to (nearly) everything, their side gets -1.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bard without the Performer feel:

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), use the Half-Humans variant on page 150 of Races of Destiny to be a Humanoid (Human) instead of Humanoid (Orc), thus qualifying for human-only feats rather than orc-only feats.

Add on the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis if you can do it without losing a level. Gaining it during play does cost a level, but gaining it prior to the start of play on a higher level character you would have had time to catch back up to the party level. Say you were made on by a Dread Necromancer 8+ who had the entire Corpsecrafter line of feats and in the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present, for +6 HP/level, +4 Str and Dex, +4 initiative, +10 ft. movement, +2 natural armor, +4 turn resistance, etc. Those Str and Dex bonuses are Enhancements and don't stack with equipment or most magical buffs.

Your build should go (Savage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ) Bard 8/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Dread Witch 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4. Swap Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe from Dragon Magic, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, and replace Countersong with Spellbreaker Song from CM. Every prestige class level after Sublime Chord should advance your Sublime Chord casting, of course. Get that one level each in Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner asap, and work on getting max ranks in Intimidate once it's a class skill.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), I'd recommend Bravado from Dragon 328 (can't gain Dodge bonuses to AC, can't use the withdraw action) and City Slicker in Dragon 324 (-4 to Handle Animal, Kn: Nature, and Survival checks). Your feats should be Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Melodic Casting (CM), Fell Frighten Spell (LM), Obtain Familiar (CA), and Improved Familiar (CW). Also say he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Menacing Demeanor for 3,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. If you have the Necropolitan template start Moderate Taint (Heroes of Horror p62-68) to get a bonus feat, Haunting Melody (ECS). Be sure to pick up Lifesense (LM) later on.

Skills, other than prerequisites, should include max ranks in Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. Definitely get as many skill tricks (CS) as possible, especially Never Outnumbered and Back On Your Feet. Your familiar is a Krenshar, its Scare DC will increase based on your level (10 + 1/2 HD + Cha bonus), and it can make Intimidate checks using your skill ranks.

Get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) with whatever spells you want on it, you can UMD it at DC 21 to use it as though they were on your own class spell list. Good choices would include Web, Bands of Steel, Black Tentacles, Rope Trick, Command Undead, Kelpstrand, Briar Web, Entangle, etc. You can also include long duration buffs that you don't expect to cast more than once each day to save spells known, such as Greater Resistance, or highly situational spells like Mass Resist Energy and Life Ward.

Start with a +1 Mithral Breastplate with the Fearsome property (DotU, +5,000 gp), and some wands of useful low level spells that you can UMD like Web and Inflict Light Wounds (to heal yourself). Future items should include a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC, 15,000 gp), a Mask of the Matriarch (DotU, 9,000 gp), and a Shadow Cloak (DotU, 5,500 gp).

You should probably have a pretty good idea of what this character does. Keep in mind that per the Rules Compendium page 53 regarding escalating fear effects, "When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire." So your Dreadful Wrath feat causes opponents to save or become Shaken (no action). You can activate Inspire Awe plus Haunting Melody to force opponents to save versus two separate Shaken conditions (standard action). You can use the Demoralize action plus Never Outnumbered once per encounter to cause every opponent within ten feet to become Shaken (move action). You can cast a Fell Frighten Sound Burst to cause anyone who takes damage to be automatically Shaken (standard action, or swift with the circlet). You have many other abilities which inflict a Shaken condition on opponents, plus your Krenshar familiar can activate its racial Scare ability and then use intimidate to demoralize opponents as well. A Shaken opponent who would become Shaken is instead Frightened, a Frightened opponent who would become Shaken is instead Panicked, and a Panicked creature who is prevented from fleeing such as by Web or Entangle or Kelpstrand will instead Cower for the duration of the fear or until they can escape. You can buff your party with spells like Haste, crowd control opponents, and be generally useful otherwise. Most of your actions in combat should probably be spent casting spells or demoralizing opponents (two per round as a move action).

[Amnestic]

I'd like to point out to both of you that party is currently ECL 6 and OP wants near-term help.

Marshal 1/Bard X then. Nothing wrong with a straight up buffer bard with a bit of IC/DFI optimisation.

[Shining Wrath]

Marshal 1/Bard X then. Nothing wrong with a straight up buffer bard with a bit of IC/DFI optimisation.

That's not bad. Marshal Auras are flexible and helpful, and bards have good buffs for many things "Try, try, try not to get us all killed!".

OP stated upthread, though, that they dislike the Bard. I suggested Cleric since they also want some melee ability ... yes, I know, Crusader, but they are trying to not be overpowered relative to party.

[Devils_Advocate]

Any tips on Cleric buffing? I guess the main things are ways to keep buffs up for a reasonable time, and what the bread and butter buff spells are.
I'm far from an expert, but just from skimming core material, I'd say:

Good, Strength, War, and/or Luck domains;

Spells by level:

0: Resistance
1: Protection from Evil, Bless, Shield of Faith
2: Bull’s Strength, Eagle’s Splendor, Bear’s Endurance
3: Magic Vestment, Magic Circle against Evil

[Randomguy]

You could try bard, but with Dragonfire Inspiration instead of Inspire Courage. With Words of Creation and the right spells and items you could give everyone around +6d6 damage on all attacks. And if you use preform (oratory) you don't need to sing, so you won't look as ridiculous.

[jaybird]

Seconding War Weaver, because your Fighter and Paladin will love you for it. Just don't break out the "standard" Wizard spells like Grease and Glitterdust unless they're seriously needed.

[ImaginaryDragon]

Seconding War Weaver, because your Fighter and Paladin will love you for it. Just don't break out the "standard" Wizard spells like Grease and Glitterdust unless they're seriously needed.

Will they love me more than a cleric?

[Feint's End]

Seconding War Weaver, because your Fighter and Paladin will love you for it. Just don't break out the "standard" Wizard spells like Grease and Glitterdust unless they're seriously needed.

I'd also suggest Warweaver the most then. Intelligence Character (exactly what your group ist lacking right now), great performance-enhancer and probably most important you could already take 1st level at level 6. Afterwards you could go into Abjurant Champion for 5 Levels and then take another full bab Caster for the Battlefield/Fighting Feel.

Cleric is another option of course. Easier to build, because straight up I tend to say Cleric is the better support.

In the end the Warweaver is more of a performance enhancer while the cleric is more of a protector.
About your question before according the RKV ... ofc it would make you even stronger but it is just the best way if you want to go Cleric/Crusader. Especially 9th level spells while also adding a good bunch of the Crusader's Maneuvers.

[Deox]

Will they love me more than a cleric?

Is the space pope reptilian?

Yes.

[Sception]

I'm amused that people suggested playing druid or wizard in a low-op party. Recipe for disaster, much?

Yes and no. If the wizard or druid in question focuses spell choice on support (buffing, debuffing, or especially battlefield control), then they can have a powerful, even overwhelming influence without stealing the spotlight from party members. OP wanted their choice of character to increase the party's overall effectiveness, and that won't happen if they play another low-op character, it will only make things worse.

Honestly, support wizard would be the most helpful and least overshadowing option, but offers no melee participation which OP also wanted. Druid has the melee presence at the cost of less support (buffs are mostly self or pet targeted, less debuff options, so party support mostly only comes in battlefield control, but that's the best kind and the druid still has plenty of good options there). There is a dramatically increased risk of outshining other party members, especially if the druid spends even the barest fraction of their spell pool to buff themselves or their pet.

So yeah, it's potentially a problem, but it doesn't have to be a huge one depending on spell, companion, and wild shape selection (focus on battlefield control spells, utility companions like flying mounts). It does require a conscious decision to spend resources supporting others rather then building up yourself, though. And again, far easier to do with a wizard than a druid or cleric.


The suggestion was made of dread necromancer. As a solid T3 class, it's not going to have as much potential in terms of ramping up the party's overall output as a T1 class. Also, while it can debuff well (especially vs. enemies vulnerable to fear or negative levels), it lacks in buffing, and its battlefield control options are, ime, somewhat less than that of a druid (there are a few solid exceptions though, black tentacles in particular). You in the range of levels when they melee alright (2 to 8ish), so you can do that, and they aren't overwhelming in their output so you don't have to worry about stealing the spotlight from other party members, as long as you shy away from SoDs, and don't abuse Magic Jar. The downside is that there's considerable risk of party conflict with that paladin in there, even if you don't use the undead stuff. Also, eschewing the undead stuff (and not abusing magic jar for that matter) is a considerable reduction in effectiveness, even for builds that don't focus on the undead control aspect (such as the fear build with dread witch mentioned above).

Dread Necro is my favorite class in the game, and I can't not support a recommendation of playing one. A lot of fun can be had playing a dread necro and pretending you're something else - like a battle cleric or something. Keep the other party members guessing. But with a paladin in the party, you're asking for trouble, regardless of your alignment, so exercise caution.

[limejuicepowder]

If you'd like a more active but similar roll, I suggest the DE-buffer: hexblade. You'd probably run in to problems with the party paladin if you take paladin of tyranny levels, so straight hexblade is probably the way to go.

Human for the extra feat.

1st: power attack, dreadful wrath (yes it's regional, but it's good), never outnumbered skill trick

3rd: free

4th: not a feat level, but trade away the familiar for the dark companion

5th: bonus hexblade feat from a very short list. probably go for combat casting or spell penetration

6th: imperious command

You have battlefield control via imperious command. The dark companion, curse, and intimidations (skill or dreadful wrath) stack up to -6 to basically everything. Once the debuffs are in place, you should be able to put out respectable damage with power attack. Also, your saves should be effectively better than the paladin's because of mettle and arcane resistance. Spells are very limited, but there are a few good ones for special occasions, like charm person, protection from alignment, and expeditious retreat (remember it boosts the companion's speed as well).

[Sception]

Be warned: hexblade, while fun and very stylish, is a pretty weak class (though the dark companion option helps), so if you're trying to reduce the likelihood of further near-tpks it might not be the best option.

[Amphetryon]

Be warned: hexblade, while fun and very stylish, is a pretty weak class (though the dark companion option helps), so if you're trying to reduce the likelihood of further near-tpks it might not be the best option.

Use the Mearls Fix if you are inclined to go Hexblade; it should still be linked on Wizards' and other forums that host Hexblade Handbooks.

[Feint's End]

Will they love me more than a cleric?

I'd say yes since as a Warweaver you actually enhance their strength and performance more than as a cleric. This way they will still feel like they are doing the job and you basically just make them "useful". They will enjoy the extra offensive power they get from you. Also Warweaver open a lot of tactical options for group combat. What about Greater Invisibility through the weave? Now you got a hole group of invisible fighters for the cost of 1 spell.

Warweaver can buff their teammates to levels a cleric could just dream of buffing but the defense is somewhat worse. I feel like just from an enhancing point Warweavers are way stronger.
Also you can tell them the enemies weaknesses using your knowledge skills and Collector of Stories. Fullfilling several roles this way :)

[ImaginaryDragon]

So making a Warweaver is pretty straightforward. Are there any Cleric prestige classes that fill a similar role? I'll make up both and pick which one I like.

[jedipilot24]

If you want to avert another TPK, go with a Dragon Shaman with the Vigor Aura.
In the first and second SilverclawShift Campaign Journals (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836), the Dragon Shaman more than pulled his own weight and prevented numerous TPK's.