Can We Fix It? #1: The Fighter

[Psycho Yuffie]

Fighter
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gray Mage, Gwendol, Friv, Krobar, Lans, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon training +1|1st
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Bonus feat, armor training +1
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, bravery, weapon training +2
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, armor training +2
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Bonus feat, weapon training +3
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, burst of adrenaline, armor training +3
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, weapon training +4
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Bonus feat, armor training +4
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, weapon training +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat, armor training +5
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Fighters have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Fighters love to have high Strength to deal more damage, high Constitution to take more hits and increases their AC. They require Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma to use their discipline abilities, which one depends on which discipline is chosen.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields). The fighter may select one of the following: an exotic weapon, an exotic armor, a dwarven armor, an exotic shield, or tower shield. The fighter gains proficiency with the selected weapon, armor, or shield.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from the appropriate feat level list. A fighter can gain any feat off of this list, even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites.

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

When a fighter learns a new feat that has the word "improved" or "greater," she may choose to remove the previous feat in the feat chain from her list (if it was part of a feat chain). The fighter still plays as if she has the previous feat, but it is freed to be spent on a new feat.

Combat Prowess (Ex): Whenever a fighter takes a penalty on her attack roll as a result of a feat, she may reduce the penalty by one-half.

Armor Agility (Ex): A fighter cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor. She may choose to add her Constitution modifier to her AC, up to one-half her fighter level (minimum 1) as a natural armor bonus.

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a fighter gains Weapon Training. This ability adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with any weapon the fighter is proficient with. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties, except that these feats now apply to all weapons the fighter is proficient with instead of a single weapon.

Discipline Focus: Starting at 2nd level, a fighter decides which of three disciplines to focus on: Strategist (Int), Templar (Wis), or Leader (Cha). Once this decision is made, it cannot be undone.

Strategist (Intelligence)
Improved Battle Maneuvers (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, a fighter's CMB and CMD increases by 4. This bonus increases by 2 every six levels after 2nd level.

Improved Combat Reflexes (Ex): At 5th level, a fighter gains her Dexterity bonus plus her Intelligence bonus as attacks of opportunity per round. At 10th level, this number doubles. At 15th level, a fighter may execute unlimited attacks of opportunity per round.

Guardian (Ex): At 9th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. The fighter moves into the ally's former space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead. In addition, the moved ally gain's the fighter's Intelligence bonus to their AC until the fighter's turn.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if the fighter is within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the fighter's ally. She must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike the fighter (or her square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half her fighter level rounded down, plus her Intelligence bonus.

Command (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, a fighter may move up to her Intelligence bonus of allies, within 30 feet, by five feet as an immediate action. This movement does not provoke any attacks of opportunity. In addition, they add the fighter's Intelligence bonus to their AC until her next turn.

Templar (Wisdom)
Mage Slayer (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, the fighter gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls when their opponent is a spellcaster. Anyone or any creature who can cast spells is considered a spellcaster.

At 10th level, the fighter is treated as threatening squares 10 feet from her when a spellcaster begins to cast a spell. The fighter takes a five-foot step as an immediate action and takes an attack of opportunity. In addition, the fighter adds her Wisdom bonus to the attack roll. This bonus stacks with Insightful Strike.

At 15th level, the fighter is treated as threatening squares 15 feet from her when a spellcaster begins to cast a spell. The fighter charges to the spellcaster as an immediate action and takes an attack of opportunity. In addition, the fighter adds her Wisdom bonus to her attack and damage rolls. This bonus stacks with Insightful Strike.

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead. In addition, she adds her Wisdom bonus to the saving throw.

Insightful Strike (Ex): At 9th level, a fighter may add her Wisdom bonus to her damage rolls made with a weapon she is proficient with. In addition, if a spellcaster is hit with insightful strike, she is stunned for 1 round.

Improved Insightful Strike (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter may double her Wisdom bonus applied to a weapon she is proficient with. In addition, spellcasters who are hit with insightful strike are staggered for the fighter's Wisdom bonus rounds.

Greater Insightful Strike (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a creature is hit with an insightful strike, she must succeed on a Reflex save (10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Wisdom bonus) or be knocked prone. In addition, a spellcaster must roll a Fortitude save for the same DC or also be knocked unconscious.

Leader (Charisma)
Battle Warcry (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry, all allies within 30 feet gain +2 on their attack rolls. In addition, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry. The effeccts of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma bonus.

Dreadful Warcry (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are shaken. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Defender Warcry (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the fighter receive a +4 morale bonus to AC. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Blood Warcry (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the fighter receive a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are panicked. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Armor Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a fighter gains armor training. This increases her armor bonus while wearing any kind of armor by 2 and decreases her armor check penalty by 2. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 3rd level.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 11th level, once per day, a fighter may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round as a swift action. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter gains an additional attack with her focused weapon at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon training increases by 1.

New Feats
Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Improved Weapon Prowess
Prerequisites: Weapon prowess as a class ability
Benefit: When a penalty is reduced to -1 with weapon prowess, it is now reduced to 0 with improved weapon prowess.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

Greater Weapon Prowess
Prerequisites: Weapon prowess as a class ability, improved weapon prowess
Benefit: Penalties to attack rolls given by feats are reduced by a further one-half.

[Barsoom]

Just get Tome of Battle and use Warblade instead. It's a fixed-fighter-in-a-box, just unpack and enjoy!

[Dragonus45]

Just get Tome of Battle and use Warblade instead. It's a fixed-fighter-in-a-box, just unpack and enjoy!

Well for people who don't like tome of battle it would be nice to put some thought into making the fighter more viable.

[ArcturusV]

Quite a few in the Homebrew section of the board here.

Some quick and dirty ones would be filling in their empty levels on the chart (3, 5, etc), with something else. The feat Open Minded might be interesting for that. One of the chief complaints about Fighters that make them low tier is that they basically suck in AND out of combat, because better classes who are also "Fighters" have more out of combat use. Getting 5 extra Skill Points at level 3, 5, 7, etc, could be a difference. And make people who are "Dipping" several classes maybe consider riding out Fighter beyond level 2.

Giving them some of their "Feat Taxes" for free is another thing. Basically anything that says "Fighter level X" for a Prerequisite is just given to them at that level.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Just get Tome of Battle and use Warblade instead. It's a fixed-fighter-in-a-box, just unpack and enjoy!
Like I said in my first post, I would prefer improving the fighter WITHOUT psionics or magic.


Quite a few in the Homebrew section of the board here.

Some quick and dirty ones would be filling in their empty levels on the chart (3, 5, etc), with something else. The feat Open Minded might be interesting for that. One of the chief complaints about Fighters that make them low tier is that they basically suck in AND out of combat, because better classes who are also "Fighters" have more out of combat use. Getting 5 extra Skill Points at level 3, 5, 7, etc, could be a difference. And make people who are "Dipping" several classes maybe consider riding out Fighter beyond level 2.

Giving them some of their "Feat Taxes" for free is another thing. Basically anything that says "Fighter level X" for a Prerequisite is just given to them at that level.
I guess I could just make my own fighter class and tell people that it's open to use in place of fighter.

Things to add:

More skill points
More skills

Okay, should I add more class features? If so, what ones would be the best? Remember: non-magic, non-psionic, please.

[ngilop]

It's only recently I started to realize how underpowered the fighter is. I was just wondering what people have done to balance them? I would like to avoid just slapping psionics or magic onto them and calling it "good enough." They made fighters slightly better in Pathfinder, but they still seem pretty weak. I would like for fighters to remain fighters. They run up and hit things. It's simple, but some players like simple. At the same time, I want to keep them relevant. Any suggestions?

Well one is give them actual class features.
Pathfidner's fix is mostly wrong as they just gave fighters bigger numbers, and well bigger numbers are not what the fighters problem is.

also, give the fighter chassis options so that not every fighter looks exactly the same.

the abilities that you do ive them, make them scale to level.

also while you do not need to give the fighter a HUGE out of combat presnece, toss the fighter at least a small bone and let them have a small handful of abilities that are applicable outside of combat.

the single most important thing you can do for a fighter is somwhere between 7th and 10th levels let them make full attacks as a standard action, for me any fighter fix that ive seen that does not do that to me is inferior to any that do.

Look at the forums here and take a couple of ideas from fighter fixes, Jiriku, Gord teh Giant, and neoseraphi all make great fighter fixes each with their own little direction. I did one too but peopel got angry over the amount of abilities I gave the fighter ( after telling me the fighter neded X ability...) so i cannibilized my own fighter fix and made everything into feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268577)

[Snowbluff]

It's only recently I started to realize how underpowered the fighter is. I was just wondering what people have done to balance them? I would like to avoid just slapping psionics or magic onto them and calling it "good enough." They made fighters slightly better in Pathfinder, but they still seem pretty weak. I would like for fighters to remain fighters. They run up and hit things. It's simple, but some players like simple. At the same time, I want to keep them relevant. Any suggestions?

I don't think this is possible. If you don't give them better ways to spend their actions (with appropriate costs, limits), you don't have a better fighter. Warblade is free and accomplishes this. Fighters are incredibly complex for what they do anyway. "Simple" is not and never will be the solution.

It's either ToB, or let me finish my Dirty Tricks Handbook and teach your fighters how to build.

[Krobar]

We don't use ToB, so we improved some of the feat trees, for fighters only.

For example, and again each of these is for fighters only...

1) Weapon Specialization includes the corresponding Weapon Focus feats. This will free up a couple more feats. Use them wisely! I like Dreadful Wrath for 1st level. Combine that with the intimidation skill and you can start making people flee from you without using magic whatsoever.

2) We removed all the penalties for the Two Weapon Fighting feats, and included the corresponding Two Weapon Defense feats. This made the Two Weapon Fighting tree actually worth taking, if you're a fighter.

3) We opened up a few of the epic feats to fighters as bonus feats starting at level 12, such as Blinding Speed, Superior Initiative, Dire Charge, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Epic Toughness, and a few others.

4) We also increased the skill points to 4 + Int. Bonus.

With a few judiciously chosen magic items a fighter like this is a force to be feared. Our goal in this was to create a situation where the cleric and druid and wizard no longer outshine the fighter at melee, but we didn't want to cripple the spell casters. Instead we made the fighter stronger.

Maybe this will help.

[ArcturusV]

More, skills, more skill points. The Fighter has dead levels that you can easily shoehorn something in.

One thing you might want to consider is something like what Rangers have. Choose a combat style or variant. Then on you 'Dead" levels it give you relevant bonuses based off what it is. A guy who wants to be a warband leader will get Charisma and Leadership based things for free on those levels. A guy who wants to be a Two Weapon-Fighter will get free Two-Weapon feats on those levels, or if they already have the feat, double that feat's effect, etc.

There's a lot to do. I mean one of the weaknesses is that the Fighter's sole perk as they currently exist is "A lot of extra feats"... but then they made any fighter geared feats into long chains that will take up most of your feat allotment just to be barely effective with it. Outside of Power Attack Charge stuff maybe. So condensing the feats, or allowing fighters to get their primary schtick chain for free would be nice.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Here's what I've gotten so far:

Skills per Level: 4 + Int
More skills
Consolidate feats
1st Level: Dreadful Wrath
10th Level: Full Attack with Standard Action
Reduce prerequisites on combat feats
Give the fighter less penalties for two-weapon fighting

I agree with all of these so far.

How is this for skills?

The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.


I don't think this is possible. If you don't give them better ways to spend their actions (with appropriate costs, limits), you don't have a better fighter. Warblade is free and accomplishes this. Fighters are incredibly complex for what they do anyway. "Simple" is not and never will be the solution.

It's either ToB, or let me finish my Dirty Tricks Handbook and teach your fighters how to build.
This is a bit self-defeating and counter-productive. I don't really think the fighter should just be abandoned. It still has a lot of room to grow.

[Snowbluff]

This is a bit self-defeating and counter-productive. I don't really think the fighter should just be abandoned. It still has a lot of room to grow.

The base class is feats. Changing that and you do not have fighter anymore (Theseus' Ship). It was only ever excelled at dips once the game grew. What you just said sounds like "The commoner should not be abandoned, because it has skills." when you think about it.

It is not obsolete. You can still do everything it was good for. It was just not very good in the first.

Protip: If you can't call it T3, it's hasn't been fixed enough.

[Psycho Yuffie]

The base class is feats. Changing that and you do not have fighter anymore (Theseus' Ship). It was only ever excelled at dips once the game grew. What you just said sounds like "The commoner should not be abandoned, because it has skills." when you think about it.

It is not obsolete. You can still do everything it was good for. It was just not very good in the first.

Protip: If you can't call it T3, it's hasn't been fixed enough.
If I make this into a custom class, yeah, it won't be the fighter. I would never tell my players that they have to take my class instead of fighter. Still, I want to build on what fighter does and make it better. Basically, a Fighter 2.0. A Combat Expert or something. I'll come up with a name later.

But I want to keep that open-ended feeling that the fighter has. The same spirit.

[babus]

The common demand for a fixed fighter is that they remain mundane while still competing with the gods of the universe known as casters. I think it might be easier to just go with giving them magic or psionics, but as an alternative, I have thought of two ways to maintain the flavor of a mundane swordswinger and still grant them some stuff that might help even the field.

The first is the Family Maxwell. This is a class that makes the death of the Fighter an entirely unremarkable event, as he or she is replaced by another family member at a certain rate with suspiciously similar stats and abilities, allowing the PC to "heroically sacrifice themselves" without any major concern regarding matters such as Resurrection, outside of making sure not to sell their death short and deprive the party of its meatshield for too long. In addition, one can add Sacrificial Techniques that do things which seem supernatural, but are merely the Fighter going beyond the limits their body can handle, causing their premature death. At later levels, the number of deaths per day could even increase, and a lack of concern for your own survival can do good things for your abilities as a combatant, so long as you don't go overboard.

The second is the Band of Fighters, who overcome the issue of not being more than mere flesh and blood by being a lot of mere flesh and blood. They would be handled as a mob, rule wise, with the PC not being truly dead until the last Fighter was dead and the chain of Command making that one in charge if you have enough levels to have a commander unit in the first place. To utilize impressive (but nonmagical) abilities, they would do impressive feats of teamwork, ala Army Ants, making bridges with their bodies, standing on each others shoulders to "be larger" in size for certain checks, and possibly even, with the right leverage, fling one of their members hurtling suicidally at a more remote enemy with some strange biological trebuchet as their numbers grow to accommodate such shenanigans.

Both these options keep the Fighter mundane while providing a greater depth of utility and room to breathe for abilities.

I actually have a third fix called Dating a Wizard, but I don't think that's what you're after.

[Psycho Yuffie]

The common demand for a fixed fighter is that they remain mundane while still competing with the gods of the universe known as casters. I think it might be easier to just go with giving them magic or psionics, but as an alternative, I have thought of two ways to maintain the flavor of a mundane swordswinger and still grant them some stuff that might help even the field.

The first is the Family Maxwell. This is a class that makes the death of the Fighter an entirely unremarkable event, as he or she is replaced by another family member at a certain rate with suspiciously similar stats and abilities, allowing the PC to "heroically sacrifice themselves" without any major concern regarding matters such as Resurrection, outside of making sure not to sell their death short and deprive the party of its meatshield for too long. In addition, one can add Sacrificial Techniques that do things which seem supernatural, but are merely the Fighter going beyond the limits their body can handle, causing their premature death. At later levels, the number of deaths per day could even increase, and a lack of concern for your own survival can do good things for your abilities as a combatant, so long as you don't go overboard.

The second is the Band of Fighters, who overcome the issue of not being more than mere flesh and blood by being a lot of mere flesh and blood. They would be handled as a mob, rule wise, with the PC not being truly dead until the last Fighter was dead and the chain of Command making that one in charge if you have enough levels to have a commander unit in the first place. To utilize impressive (but nonmagical) abilities, they would do impressive feats of teamwork, ala Army Ants, making bridges with their bodies, standing on each others shoulders to "be larger" in size for certain checks, and possibly even, with the right leverage, fling one of their members hurtling suicidally at a more remote enemy with some strange biological trebuchet as their numbers grow to accommodate such shenanigans.

Both these options keep the Fighter mundane while providing a greater depth of utility and room to breathe for abilities.

I actually have a third fix called Dating a Wizard, but I don't think that's what you're after.
While as humorous as your post is, I'm not a DM that thinks that a player character death should be cheapened or considered commonplace. A player character's death should be something engraved into the memories of the party. It should never be like...

Guy: Dang, Greg's dead.

Greg II: Don't worry! I'm his replacement! :D

[babus]

While as humorous as your post is, I'm not a DM that thinks that a player character death should be cheapened or considered commonplace. A player character's death should be something engraved into the memories of the party. It should never be like...

Guy: Dang, Greg's dead.

Greg II: Don't worry! I'm his replacement! :D

That might indeed have some unfortunate roleplaying implications. Unless Greg had convinced his likely successor to take over his romantic relationships and friendships for him using journals he kept as reference.

For a more serious answer to your current dillema, I'd say that, while consolidating feats is fine, there's also the option of just filling those dead levels in with the actual abilities they'd likely be buying anyways, ala the Ranger's Combat Styles. That gives them a lot more space to consider other matters in their build when selecting the only feats that don't have to be dedicated to hitting things at 1, 3, 6, etc.

Edit: On that note, have a look at the scaling feats from Races of War http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Warriors_with_Style

[Krobar]

While as humorous as your post is, I'm not a DM that thinks that a player character death should be cheapened or considered commonplace. A player character's death should be something engraved into the memories of the party. It should never be like...

Guy: Dang, Greg's dead.

Greg II: Don't worry! I'm his replacement! :D


Yeah, that sounds like Paranoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)), to me.

The Computer is your friend!

[Snowbluff]

But I want to keep that open-ended feeling that the fighter has. The same spirit. :s


Yeah, that sounds like Paranoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)), to me.

The Computer is your friend!

I think it would be funny if what this ended with was an unintentional d20 version of Paranoia

[Quorothorn]

I feel a very telling point about the Fighter is that there is an Unearthed Arcana variant of it that, as I recall, trades the Fighter Bonus Feats (as in, all of them, across the entire progression) in "exchange" for the Rogue's Sneak Attack. You might notice that this would result in, essentially, not a Fighter of any kind but instead a heavy-armoured Rogue with marginally more HP, considerably less skills, and no other special abilities.

In other words, the Fighter by 3.5 RAW does not have class features outside the Feats. So, changing that seems a place to start, certainly. A super-quick not-really-a-fix-but-something I did for them was that they get the Weapon Focus tree (including the Greater versions, as well as Melee/Ranged Weapon Master, etc, from PHBII) for free, filling many of the odd-numbered levels, as well as the Cleave line (including Supreme Cleave, eventually), and Exotic Weapon Proficiencies as they level. Plus 4 skill points a level and a slightly expanded skill set (your example list looks fairly similar). I also have considered giving them the option to choose either REF or WILL to have a good progression, along with the usual good progression for FORT saves.

[Grod_The_Giant]

These kind of things come up a lot, and there's really no good answer that's not "rebuild from the ground up" or "no, seriously, the warblade does it better." Part of the issue is that everyone has their own ideas on what the fighter should be, and what's generic enough to be acceptable. And it's an issue because there really isn't a fighter class in 3.5. It's feats and nothing else. And 99% feats that anyone can take, at that.

So... yeah. If you don't like the "play a warblade" solution (which is annoying to be told, I know, but it's the only simple solution), look through the homebrew section for people's fixes. There have probably been enough that you can find one that fills your vision of a "fighter 2.0."

[Juntao112]

It's only recently I started to realize how underpowered the fighter is. I was just wondering what people have done to balance them? I would like to avoid just slapping psionics or magic onto them and calling it "good enough." They made fighters slightly better in Pathfinder, but they still seem pretty weak. I would like for fighters to remain fighters. They run up and hit things. It's simple, but some players like simple. At the same time, I want to keep them relevant. Any suggestions?

Replace every instance of the word "Fighter" with "Barbarian"?

[Coidzor]

Pseudo-Relevant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271220)

As soon as I first experimented with 4e, I became fond of the marking mechanic, since it's mostly a side effect of doing the whole running up and hitting things routine. I don't know your feelings on the subject, but backporting something like that, rather than the powers might be one part of addressing it, depending upon how your players like to play and if it'd interest them. You might also consider expanding the access non-ToB classes have to maneuvers and martial initiating. I'm currently trying to find it but some people have been working on a way to make quarter/half initiating available to mundanes either through substitution levels or feats as I recall.

Expanding what fighter bonus feats would cover is a move that would help, and I believe you can find a couple of houseruled expanded lists or just go with a case-by-case DM approval thing at first. Have a limited way of waiving requirements, like the Int requirement for combat expertise and improved trip or the dexterity requirements of TWF.

Investigate homebrew (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Investing_Feats)/houserules (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Perfecting_Feats)that change feats so that they scale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41894)with BAB/level instead of having as long of feat chains, such as the TWF fix that just gives off-hand iteratives whenever one's BAB grants them.

Giving pretty much everyone a base 4 + Int skill points except for maybe Wizards would help with the skills. Maybe fold the class skills of the Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug)int o the base fighter without taking away anything or otherwise expand their skill list. Certainly add perception skills to their list so they can be like everyone else and at least have the potential to help out with keeping watch.

One of their big disadvantages is that they are caster-dependent for movement modes without expending a lot of their wealth on flight or the like and they've got to juggle that with having to keep their weapons and armor relevant since they have no other real boosts to their offense or defense. How exactly to address this has varied across various fighter fixes, but it's something that you may end up running into unless they like getting mounts for flight in which case wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is one of the better scaling methods after a certain level.


This is a bit self-defeating and counter-productive. I don't really think the fighter should just be abandoned. It still has a lot of room to grow.

This is a little bit fallacious, the fighter didn't really have anything there to begin with in and of itself. All that's there is whatever each individual person decides to put there, consciously or not.

As far as conceiving the fighter as a build it yourself class, actually making a functional build-it-yourself class is better accomplished by either using the generic classses in unearthed arcana or going very far away from the class-based system of 3.X or going to require a lot more work than you'd likely want to put into something that was just a fighter fix. You'd basically be starting on making a non-class-based system in doing so.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Here's what I've come up with so far. What's funny is that I wasn't intending on this turning into a homebrew challenge, but I think it might have. This thread may end up in the homebrew forum at this rate. This isn't at all near finished. It's a very rough, awkward first steps of this class. Let me know what you think.

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Combat Prowess (Ex): A fighter's experience with armed combat as made her familiar enough with weapons to give her an edge. A fighter's attack roll penalties while using two weapons is decreased by 2 and she may have her full Strength modifier on damage rolls made with her offhand weapon.

Armor Agility (Ex): A fighter cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor, with the exception of Mountain Plate. Armor check penalties are reduced by 2.

Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat. This adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with the specified weapon. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties.

Dreadful Wrath (Ex): At 3rd level, a fighter gains Dreadful Wrath as a bonus feat. When a fighter charges, makes a full attack, or casts a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, she gains the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of her must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 her character level + her Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Edit: I was thinking about making Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization into just Greater Weapon Focus. Don't think I'll make it part of the class, but have it as a combat feat.

[ngilop]

I like what you have so far,
i alreayd made a lot of feast scale to level ( i.e what you are doing with weapon focus is part of the fet itslef, but also applies to sunder/disamre attempts)

Spot and Listen SHOULD be on the fighter's skill list.

allowing the fighter to use more actions that move/standard is nice. allow the fighter to as a swift action do X (where X is any cool ability you can thnk of)

I think maybe slapping the Marshal onto the fighter chassis is actaully a pretty damn good quick and dirty solution combined with what you have so far. then the fighter goes back to his roots of being a leader of men and armies, in addition to a combat force.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Start with the Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter) Fighter. Allow all Fighter archetypes. (Small, incremental power boosts are still power boosts.)

Remove the feat tax of the Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) Fighter. (You can decide for yourself if the armor proficiency stays or goes.)

Make the Zhentarim substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) standard.

Bam: quick and dirty Fighter fix. No, it won't elevate them above tier 4. But, it will elevate them above a two-level dip, and make them not as incredibly painful on the whole.

If this fix is insufficient, look at why these fixes improve the Fighter, and then take them a step further.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Here's some more class features:

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Tough (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter gains DR1/—. This increases by 1 every four levels after 7th level.

I'll look at the fighter archetypes, marshal, and thug for more ideas.

[babus]

Make the Zhentarim substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) standard.

Definitely seconding this, especially with Dreadful Wrath made a standard feat. Targets Shaken with DW can be Frightened with a standard action Intimidate and made to flee, which causes them to take AoO from those that threaten them. Adds some much needed flavor, and Zhentarim making the Intimidate attempt into something other than a standard action makes it even better.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Definitely seconding this, especially with Dreadful Wrath made a standard feat. Targets Shaken with DW can be Frightened with a standard action Intimidate and made to flee, which causes them to take AoO from those that threaten them. Adds some much needed flavor, and Zhentarim making the Intimidate attempt into something other than a standard action makes it even better.

Even if Dreadful Wrath isn't made standard; at that point, it just becomes a powerful force multiplier for those that DO take it. Remember that, at 9th level, Zhentarim Fighters can demoralize as a swift action (meaning Dreadful Wrath shakes for free and improves to frightened with a negligible action cost). Never Outnumbered further multiplies the power of this trick, and the Imperious Command feat gives you another powerful application (the cowering condition for 1 round on your target instead of outright frightened or shaken, and then reverting to frightened or shaken after; can be repeated round-by-round).

This trick already single-handedly gives Fighters something useful to do that isn't "big numbers", which is why Zhentarim Fighter is ranked tier 4 instead of 5. :smallwink:

[Psycho Yuffie]

I'll look at the fighter archetypes, marshal, thug, and Zhentarim for more ideas.

Feats
Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[Frozen_Feet]

How to improve the Fighter is fairly clear, if you accept the following premises:

Fighter is a man who fights; he should be the best person in the game when it comes to martial arts.

Fighter is mundane; he has no intrinsic magic abilities.

Fighter's primary class feature is feats; he should get more of them, and more out of them, than any other class.

Fighter is meant to model real men who fight; It's not so generic as to mean anyone who picks up a stick, but rather specialized to model those people who've historically fought as their profession: nobility and professional soldiers (especially non-commissioned and commissioned officers), more specifically, policemen, samurai, knights, mercenaries etc.

Looking at the existing system, it fails to follow these premises in the following ways:


Fighter's position as the top dog is hotly contested. It's trivially easy to get access to all the same toys as fighter, without being a fighter.
Magic almost always gives better options than mundane equipment. This makes mundane armor and weapon selection largely irrelevant.
Fighter feats are not comparable to class features. In fact, most feats are just lame compared to class features.
Fighter lacks several skills that are essential to real men who fight.


From these, the following improvement ideas come to mind:


Change the weapon system and combat rules so that fighters get more out of them than other classes.
Either improve quality of mundane options considerably, or remove magical options that obsolete mundane ones, or both.
Improve quality of Fighter feats
Expand Fighter's skill list, skillpoints and selection of feats so that modeling people listed above becomes easier.

[babus]

Even if Dreadful Wrath isn't made standard; at that point, it just becomes a powerful force multiplier for those that DO take it. Remember that, at 9th level, Zhentarim Fighters can demoralize as a swift action (meaning Dreadful Wrath shakes for free and improves to frightened with a negligible action cost). Never Outnumbered further multiplies the power of this trick, and the Imperious Command feat gives you another powerful application (the cowering condition for 1 round on your target instead of outright frightened or shaken, and then reverting to frightened or shaken after; can be repeated round-by-round).

This trick already single-handedly gives Fighters something useful to do that isn't "big numbers", which is why Zhentarim Fighter is ranked tier 4 instead of 5. :smallwink:

The fear chain is well known to me, though I'm used to seeing it with a Barb Dip for access to Intimidating Rage, which combines well with the skill trick you mentioned.

And of course, any level of fear status gives allied casters a bit more potency against the targets in question, providing the Fighter have some debuffing ability at the very least.

[Psycho Yuffie]

To make the fighter stand above the other melee classes, maybe she should have a perfect base attack bonus? A progression that starts at +2 and increases by 1 each level.

[Jopustopin]

Here is something I've been working on that is unfinished. The Brilliant Forums claim that this is Tier 4 so here it is:


I'm going to try to match the "fluff" of fighter from the PHB into a class that actually does what the fluff says.

Fluff:

Emphases mine. But please, read the PHB Fighter fluff to garner your own opinion.

Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. Better than the warblade, barbarian, psychic warrior, shapechanged druid, etc. When it comes to fighting, this class should be the best. Furthermore: In addition to general fighting prowess, each fighter develops particular specialties of his own.

Lastly: The fighter excels in a straight fight, but he relies on others for magical support, healing, and scouting. On a team, it is HIS JOB TO MAN THE FRONT LINES, PROTECT OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, AND BRING THE TOUGH OPPONENTS DOWN.


Skills:

4 + Int mod. per level (x4 at 1st).
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str)
Knowledge History (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Balance (Dex), Tumble (Dex)

Fighters should have the skills to help them be good at fighting. Battlefield mobility, resistance to being feinted in combat, never caught in a battle with his pants down, a well honed ability to know the most about combat maneuvers. Stuff that we would expect the ultimate fighting class to be good at.



Class Features

Level 1: Weapon Aptitude, Basic Training
Level 2: Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat
Level 3: Heroic Reflexes
Level 4: Weapon Specialization, Bonus Feat
Level 5: Whatever it Takes

Level 6: Combat Training
Level 7: Improved Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat
Level 8: Heroic Fortitude
Level 9: Improved Critical, Bonus Feat
Level 10: Know the Battlefield

Level 11: Advanced Training
Level 12: Supreme Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat
Level 13: Heroic Willpower
Level 14: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bonus Feat
Level 15: Own the Battlefield

Level 16: Fighting Mastery, Bonus Feat
Level 17: Weapon Aptitude Mastery, Bonus Feat
Level 18: Legendary Heroics, Bonus Feat
Level 19: Weapon Supremecy, Bonus Feat
Level 20: Supreme Fighter , Bonus feat


What do those cool words mean?

Weapon and Armor Aptitude At 1st level a fighter can spend 1 hour in weapon, armor, or shield practice to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon, armor, or shield. You must have the newly designated weapon, armor, or shield available during your practice session to make this change.
At 7th level a fighter need only spend a full round action to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat.
At 12th level a fighter need only spend a move action to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat.
At 17th level any feat that applies only to a single weapon now applies to any weapon the fighter is currently making an attack with. In effect the feat's weapon designation switches automatically whenever the fighter makes an attack. Furthermore any feat that applies only to a single type of armor or shield now applies to any armor or shield the fighter is currently gaining an armor bonus from.

Heroic Reflexes: As an immediate action after failing a reflex save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a reflex save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Heroic Fortitude: As an immediate action after failing a fortitude save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a fortitude save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Heroic Willpower: As an immediate action after failing a will save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a will save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Basic Training: A fighter spends years training in all forms of combat. One never knows what weapons will end up in your hands. Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. By the time a fighter has finished his training he knows the basics of several different fighting styles. At 1st level a fighter gains the following feats: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Specialization, Point Blank Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike. He does not need to meet the ability score prerequisites in order to make use of these feats.

Combat Training: A fighter spends most of his free time in between adventurers practicing more advanced maneuvers. By the time a fighter has reached 6th level he has improved his all-around fighting capabilities in addition to his area of expertise. A fighter gains the following feats:
Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Defense, Shield Ward, Precise Shot, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Blind-Fight. He does not need to meet the ability score prerequisites in order to make use of these feats. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Advanced Training: A fighter that advances to 11th level finds that he is still the best all around at fighting. A fighter gains the following feats: Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Snap Kick. He does not need to meet the ability score prerequisites in order to make use of these feats. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Fighting Mastery: A fighter of 16th level would be considered a master at any style of fighting that he picks up. He is never without weapon, and in a straight battle, is without equal. A fighter gains the following feats: Greater Two-Weapon Defense, Flying Kick, Manyshot, Improved Overrun, Heavy Armor Optimization, and ToughnessThis is supposed to be a joke. He does not need to meet the ability score prerequisites in order to make use of these feats. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Whatever it takes
Sometimes a fighter is being swallowed whole, other times he's being grappled by a Roper, whatever the case may be don't count the fighter out just yet. The battle is not over until the waste of space stops screaming. A fighter of 5th level gains the feat Improved Grapple if he did not already have this feat. He gains the use of three tactical maneuvers.
I'm still fighting here: To use this maneuver, a fighter must currently exist inside of a creature that has swallowed him whole. He is not restricted to using light piercing or slashing weapons in order to escape but still cannot use bludgeoning weapons. Furthermore the damage done to the creature's gizzard counts against the creature's total hit points. Most creatures do not try to swallow a fighter whole twice.
Stunning Escape!: To use this maneuver, a fighter must currently be grappling or pinned by an opponent. By winning an opposed grapple check a fighter may deliver a stunning unarmed strike at a -4 penalty to the grappling creatures head (-8 if the Fighter is pinned). This attack is made with a head-butt, elbow, or any other available body part. A creature who takes damage from this attack must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter Class Level + Str Modifier) or be stunned until the beginning of its next turn. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Charging Spree In order to use this maneuver a fighter must have charged an opponent and missed. If he wishes he can attempt to start a grapple as a free action.

Know the Battlefield (Ex):
A fighter is the best at fighting. He knows everything that is going on and can anticipate his opponent with uncanny prediction. It's not that the fighter is smarter or wiser than his opponents. It's that fighting is all he cares about. A fighter eats, sleeps, and dreams about kicking the snot out of hill giants. About fighting his way out of ambushes. Once initiative has been rolled the random hillside or the city street turns into the battlefield. A fighter knows the battlefield like a wizard knows her spellbook. At 10th level a fighter gains several advantages when fighting on his home turf (which is wherever he's fighting).
The fighter gains the following abilities:
No Place Like Home: A fighter cannot be an unaware combatant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm). He rolls initiative whenever anyone else does (but only once per battle obviously).
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Furthermore his knowledge of the battlefield borders on the supernatural. He has seen so much fighting that he knows exactly what his opponents are up to and can react appropriately. A fighter gains Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Too Predictable:Also, any time a creature makes an attack that the fighter can see or feel the fighter can make a sense motive check opposed by the creatures bluff check. If the fighter wins he gains blindsight 120 ft. against ONLY that creature until the end of the fighters next turn.
Know the Pieces: He can tell just by the way his allies move how many hit points they are at. Against any creature that he successfully identified with the appropriate knowledge check, the fighter may take a swift action to determine how many hit points the creature has. It is not metagaming to keep track of damage that the players have done to know how close to victory you are.

Own the Battlefield
It's not enough to know the battlefield. Any true fighter struts around the place like he's been living there for the last 15 levels. Oh yeah, that's right. He has. When initiative has been rolled, the fighter welcomes everyone to his home. And as long as your living here, under his roof, you play by his rules.
First and Foremost: After all other effects have been calculated the Fighter goes first in combat. If there are two or more fighters with this ability they will roll separate initiative to see which of them goes first.
Supreme Blade Parry: The fighter was the first to develop this stance later stolen by the Iron Heart discipline. While you are in this stance you gain damage reduction 5/- .
Bring the Fight Home: A fighter can start a grapple any time that he successfully makes a melee attack. If his weapon has reach, then the fighter uses the weapon itself to begin the grapple, and moves with arms reach of his opponent on a successful grapple check.
Disrupting Flow: A fighter can make an attack of opportunity against opponents who let there guard down, even for a split second. Swift Actions and Immediate Actions provoke attacks of opportunity if they are spells or spell-like abilities and may be disrupted as normal. Five foot steps provoke attacks of opportunity. Blinking provokes attacks of opportunities.



This is the direction I would go when rebuilding a fighter class. I personally do not know enough about high levels to give the fighter abilities that address the weaknesses at these levels.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The fear chain is well known to me, though I'm used to seeing it with a Barb Dip for access to Intimidating Rage, which combines well with the skill trick you mentioned.

And of course, any level of fear status gives allied casters a bit more potency against the targets in question, providing the Fighter have some debuffing ability at the very least.

Yes, yes. Sorry, I meant mainly to correct the "demoralize as a standard action" bit (Zhentarim Fighters, past a certain point, can do better). :smallbiggrin:

Oh! Also (at least, in games where Tome of Battle are allowed):

- Add the Weapon Training feature of the Warblade. These feats SHOULD be easier to retrain, if one decides to take them.
- If these fixes are insufficient for your group, include Martial Study as a bonus feat at levels 2, 10, and 18. Include Martial Stance at 6 and 14. Or some similar, logical progression. (I would not do this myself, as I don't like to get peanut butter in my chocolate unless that's my intention.)

EDIT: also, trade Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Or, at the least, make every Fighter aware of this option.

[Friv]

I was tooling around with this at one point, under the basic premise "Fighter is a generic, skilled man-at-arms who is good at his job and a little unstoppable".

To that end, I went with the following minor alterations:

1) Fighters get 4+Int skills at base instead of 2+Int
2) Fighters have every Save at Good
3) Fighters add +2 to the lowest of their Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution at Levels 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19. This makes them physical powerhouses, but balanced ones rather than ones who are just unstoppable in a primary trait, and ones who can generally excel in all physical endeavors rather than just in direct stabbings. A Fighter who starts at Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14 and tries to get highest Str possible ends up at
Str 20, Dex 20, Con 18.
4) Damage Reduction 1/- at Level 5, increasing by 1 every four levels.

It's not enough to really redo the class from the ground up, but as a fast and dirty fix for a low- to mid-op game it works pretty well.

[darklink_shadow]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)

start here. Homebrew from a large group of people who tried to make the fight balanced to wizard level of cool. Next make better fighter feats.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Yes, yes. Sorry, I meant mainly to correct the "demoralize as a standard action" bit (Zhentarim Fighters, past a certain point, can do better). :smallbiggrin:

Oh! Also (at least, in games where Tome of Battle are allowed):

- Add the Weapon Training feature of the Warblade. These feats SHOULD be easier to retrain, if one decides to take them.
- If these fixes are insufficient for your group, include Martial Study as a bonus feat at levels 2, 10, and 18. Include Martial Stance at 6 and 14. Or some similar, logical progression. (I would not do this myself, as I don't like to get peanut butter in my chocolate unless that's my intention.)

EDIT: also, trade Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Or, at the least, make every Fighter aware of this option.
Also, Weapon Focus is basically Weapon Training in this custom class. If you're talking about Weapon Aptitude, I was thinking about combining it with Weapon Focus.

This is for Pathfinder, so no Tumble. :\


3) Fighters add +2 to the lowest of their Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution at Levels 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19. This makes them physical powerhouses, but balanced ones rather than ones who are just unstoppable in a primary trait, and ones who can generally excel in all physical endeavors rather than just in direct stabbings. A Fighter who starts at Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14 and tries to get highest Str possible ends up at
Str 20, Dex 20, Con 18.
I'll compromise with you on this one. Here's what I came up with:

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To make the fighter stand above the other melee classes, maybe she should have a perfect base attack bonus? A progression that starts at +2 and increases by 1 each level.
It would probably be better to do something like 5/4 level instead of just being level + 1... but I don't think it's the best idea-- it just makes the fighter more attractive as a dip for PrC early-entry shenanigans.

My favorite solution was to create a dice pool of sorts, refreshing at the start of each encounter. At its most basic, you then take dice out of the pool and roll them along with the d20 when making attacks, damage rolls, and so on. (Similar to the 5e expertise dice, apparently). It simulates the fighters being even better at combat than similar classes without abusing the system too much. I tried it out in a one-shot and it seemed to work pretty well.

[Psycho Yuffie]

It would probably be better to do something like 5/4 level instead of just being level + 1... but I don't think it's the best idea-- it just makes the fighter more attractive as a dip for PrC early-entry shenanigans.
This is a good point, thanks.

[Quorothorn]

This is for Pathfinder, so no Tumble. :\

Isn't Tumble just part of Acrobatics in PF?

[Friv]

Also, Weapon Focus is basically Weapon Training in this custom class. If you're talking about Weapon Aptitude, I was thinking about combining it with Weapon Focus.

This is for Pathfinder, so no Tumble. :\


I'll compromise with you on this one. Here's what I came up with:

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1.

That makes sense, since you're also giving your Fighter a few more specific options. :) It does create the potential drawback of having your Fighter dump a godawful number of points into his primary stat, though, leading to number bloating.

[ngilop]

to me there are 4 grades of abilities to give a fighter

Base abilities, these are at a static power level whne you acquire them and while they never grow in power ( or diminish) they are alway relevant, think evasion or aura of courage for a good example I did this with Fortification, a fighter can as a free action make a successfula ttack roll to negate a critical hit. or Heroic Sugre basically the fighter moves so fast he is under the effects of a time stop spell excpet he can still hurt things.

Major Abilities, these the fighter gets every so often like every 3rd level and increase in power regularly throughout the fighters career, think sneak attack or favored enemy these tend to start out rather weak but gain in power rapidly.

Minor Abilities, these the fighter gets throughout his careeer and only increase in power once or twice these tend to be powerful when they are aquired but only gain a tad more power and mostly apply in certain circumsatnces. think of inspire heroics por the rangers combat style

Utility abilities, these tend to be based on an attribute and semi-scale, so think of turn undead or the duelist Int to AC.

[Psycho Yuffie]

That makes sense, since you're also giving your Fighter a few more specific options. :) It does create the potential drawback of having your Fighter dump a godawful number of points into his primary stat, though, leading to number bloating.
Maybe it only happens every other ability increase instead?


Isn't Tumble just part of Acrobatics in PF?
Sorry, I forgot. In that case, I already gave the class Acrobatics. :)

[darklink_shadow]

Maybe it only happens every other ability increase instead?


Sorry, I forgot. In that case, I already gave the class Acrobatics. :)

I think saying it cannot be the same stat is the way to go. If you incresse STR byleveling, the ability cannot raise STR. Of courde tht means they will always go STR and CON...

[Gnaeus]

The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

I would definitely add Knowledge (nobility) (both because fighters are a go-to class for the Knight concept, and because being able to ID enemy standards or heroes based on their coat of arms seems important), and Knowledge (local) because the fighter who spends all his time drinking in the inn probably knows all the local gossip, and because Know local is used to ID humanoids.

[Person_Man]

Two very easy options:

1) Give the Fighter a Fighter Bonus Feat every level. After 8 hours of rest/meditation, the Fighter may choose new Fighter Bonus Feats in their place (like a caster can do with their spells).

2) Fill in the Fighter's dead levels with class abilities that are appropriate for that ECL-ish from another Tier 4 or lower class. (Basically a free, but more limited gestalt). For example, a Fighter-Knight could gain Bulwark of Defense, Test of Mettle, Vigilant Defender, Call to Battle, etc at it's dead levels.

[limejuicepowder]

Get rid of the "this feat may be taken as a fighter bonus feat" crap, and allow them to take any skill or combat related feat. A 20th level fighter barely has enough decent feats to chose from. Taking something like quick draw for lack of better things to get at level 18, when your sorcerer buddy just busted out gate, is insulting and pathetic.

Also, while this could be said of virtually all mundanes, give them something to do with swift and immediate actions. I've always thought a mid to high level fighter should react quickly to any situation, regardless of what his dexterity number is. Letting them ready move or standard actions as immediate actions would be a great place to start - like contingency, but with a "I'm so experienced my body moves on it's own" flavor.

[Coidzor]

From these, the following improvement ideas come to mind:


Change the weapon system and combat rules so that fighters get more out of them than other classes.
Either improve quality of mundane options considerably, or remove magical options that obsolete mundane ones, or both.
Improve quality of Fighter feats
Expand Fighter's skill list, skillpoints and selection of feats so that modeling people listed above becomes easier.


What, no give them class features, just go straight to altering the fundamental combat mechanics of the system to make a huge exception for Fighters and only Fighters? :smallconfused:

[Xerxus]

The Fighter has two things he should and could be doing. Number one is killing enemies. Number two is tanking. I say the fighter gets +1 damage every or every other level. Combat feats every level. A level 5 fighter feat that somehow makes it very hard to leave CQC with a fighter, and a level 10 follow-up that makes it incredibly hard to get past and doing anything other than fighting the fighter. Think along the lines of immediate/swift action moves, all spells provoke AoOs, extended threatened area, AoOs for every move out of a threatened square etc. Uncanny Dodge, a good will save, 4+int skill points and scaling AC (maybe dodge) would shore up the utility and defences.

The most important point however is to make better feats. More along the lines of Shield Master - +2 to shield AC and may block one critical hit per round, Intimidating Skill at Arms - swift action to make all enemies within 30 ft shaken, then frightened, after seeing the fighter strike someone down, but maybe the most important thing: Making a high amount of fighter levels a prerequisite for awesome combat feats.

[Coidzor]

but maybe the most important thing: Making a high amount of fighter levels a prerequisite for awesome combat feats.

The problem with this philosophy is that you're robbing Peter to pay Paul whenever you make truly game-changing feats that are fighter-only and that you're robbing both of them when you increase feat taxes or make onerously long feat chains.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tome of Battle's Warblade can be made as a completely Ex Fighter. In fact, Warblade is actually better at simulating real world historical renaissance fighting techniques than the Fighter is.



Lemme quote myself...


"Actually, if you want to explicitly simulate non supernatural martial arts in D&D, the Warblade is possibly the closest class you can use for that purpose before going to 3rd party sources to simulate the sorts of things that happen in real fighting. Now, that doesn't mean that it is always realistic, just that you can build the most realistic fighter with that class if you put your mind to it! For example, I've always wanted to play a Warblade who is a Federfechter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federfechter), who used to be a Zweihänder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder) wielding Doppelsöldner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppels%C3%B6ldner) in the Landsknechts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknechts), who focuses on Iron Heart (with a bit of Stone Dragon), and I would just rename the stances and strikes and counters and stuff with terms from German longsword fencing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing). He'd wear a Breastplate and fight with a Greatsword. It totally fits!"

[Xerxus]

The problem with this philosophy is that you're robbing Peter to pay Paul whenever you make truly game-changing feats that are fighter-only and that you're robbing both of them when you increase feat taxes or make onerously long feat chains.

The idea behind the feats is making the fighter class adaptable to all kinds of combat. So feat taxes is only a thing if all fighter types benefit from the tax feats. My philosophy is this. Make feats that are either very clearly for one type of fighter. TWF trees with massive rend damage, ranged feats that make you threaten 20 ft, shield feats that improve your AC and other things (maybe evasion?). Sure, they will be part of those onerously long feat chains but a fighter should either be very good at one thing or pretty good at everything. The other way is to make feats that are independent and more utility than anything else. Swift action things, or even immediate action. Making half a move as an immediate action etc.

There has to be a feat tax for making you a master of one thing, but this should not use up all your feats. Enough combat feats should be left to personalize your fighting style. The non-combat feats should be available for non-combat things - iron will, run, skill foci or whatever you want.

Making every fighting style viable with individual or branching feat trees is important. Tower shields, polearms, TWF etc etc should all be viable in their own way with their own unique abilities.

[Coidzor]

The idea behind the feats is making the fighter class adaptable to all kinds of combat. So feat taxes is only a thing if all fighter types benefit from the tax feats. My philosophy is this. Make feats that are either very clearly for one type of fighter. TWF trees with massive rend damage, ranged feats that make you threaten 20 ft, shield feats that improve your AC and other things (maybe evasion?). Sure, they will be part of those onerously long feat chains but a fighter should either be very good at one thing or pretty good at everything. The other way is to make feats that are independent and more utility than anything else. Swift action things, or even immediate action. Making half a move as an immediate action etc.

There has to be a feat tax for making you a master of one thing, but this should not use up all your feats. Enough combat feats should be left to personalize your fighting style. The non-combat feats should be available for non-combat things - iron will, run, skill foci or whatever you want.

Making every fighting style viable with individual or branching feat trees is important. Tower shields, polearms, TWF etc etc should all be viable in their own way with their own unique abilities.

The problem with most feat chains though is that once you get as far along as you want in one, generally around level 6-10 or so, starting a new one puts you square back at stuff that's appropriate for a level 1 character and then you're level 12 and have feat chains that are appropriate to 2 different level 6 characters.

Solving that problem leads to more scaling feats than not, although I suppose a base feat that scales and then further specialization upon that would be a fair compromise, but it runs into the problem where it becomes harder to justify it as a fighter unique feat fix.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Here's what I got so far. This is still very much a work in progress.

Heroic Fighter (Fighter Variant) (filler name)
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gnaeus, Friv, Krobar, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon focus +1
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dreadful wrath
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bravery, weapon focus +2
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, guard against magic
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Tough +1
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon focus +3
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Tough +2
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon focus +4
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, improved guard against magic
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Tough +3
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon focus +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Tough +4
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Combat Prowess (Ex): A fighter's experience with armed combat as made her familiar enough with weapons to give her an edge. A fighter's attack roll penalties while using two weapons is decreased by 2 and she may have her full Strength modifier on damage rolls made with her offhand weapon. In addition, she gains another 2 damage on power attacks, if she has the power attack feat.

Armor Agility (Ex): A fighter cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor, with the exception of Mountain Plate. Armor check penalties are reduced by 2.

Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat. This adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with the specified weapon. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties.

Dreadful Wrath (Ex): At 3rd level, a fighter gains Dreadful Wrath as a bonus feat. When a fighter charges, makes a full attack, or casts a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, she gains the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of her must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 her character level + her Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead. If she makes a successful Fortitude saving throw against an attack that normal deals damage on a successful save, she instead takes half damage. If she fails, she receives full damage. If she is helpless, she does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Tough (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter gains DR1/—. This increases by 1 every four levels after 7th level.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Improved Guard Against Magic (Ex): From 14th level on, a fighter gains the benefit of improved guard against magic. She takes no damage if she makes a successful Fortitude save against a magical attack, and even if she fails the Fortitude save, she takes only half damage from the attack. If she is helpless, she does not gain the benefit of improved guard against magic.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter gains an additional attack with her focused weapon at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon focus increases by 1.

Feats
Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[catsora]

How about adding something that applies to specific weapon groups or combat types. Say for example a fighter using a shield is always treated as having a certain amount of cover or can make bull rushes without charging.

[Aotrs Commander]

My own approach was to simply grant the fighters a feat every level, and make those feats that the fighter gains on previously dead levels be any feat that they meet the prereqs for (i.e., not just fighter bonus feats). In addition, some feats have additional effects for fighters, e.g. Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes doesn't add +2 to the save, it changes the fighter's base save progression from poor to good (i.e. from 1/3 level to 2+ 1/2 level).

(We also use a slightly modified version of the PF skill system so the fighter's small skill point pool goes a bit further.)

Given the sort of battles we tend to fight mean that full-attacks are fairly common practises (as most serious enemies come from classed enemies (and often in quantity) and not monsters in my games), fighters do pretty okay. (It probably helps that the last couple of parties have also been horribly over-equipped in terms of magic items and cash, but there you go.)

[Gavinfoxx]

Per the list of retooled homebrew tier 3 classes, here is a Tier 3 Fighter:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278

[avr]

The problem with a fighter isn't how to kill things better. Sufficiently optimised fighters can do that already. The problems are 1/ how to have some out of combat utility, however small, and 2/ how to deal with in combat problems like fly-by attackers, invisible opponents, or other stuff that magic makes so much easier.

High-magic D&D can deal with 2/ by giving the fighter items. Low-magic D&D, not so much. I think 1/ is best dealt with by giving the fighter a niche as a commander with better access to things like volley fire or White Raven boosts & then extending it to other follower-related stuff.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Combat unity? I kinda didn't want to delve into it because the paladin and bard already do it, but the fighter could give morale bonuses to AC, attack rolls, and fortitude saves through battle cries? The battle cries could even demoralize enemies.

[pbdr]

I agree with the idea of giving something in the "dead" levels. Fighters are, well, fighters, so extras should concentrate on this. How about 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th, a +1 unnamed bonus to AC for "battle awareness". 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th a +1 to hit and +1 melee damage for "weapon mastery". Then maybe dex or str to hit will melee and thrown weapons and a +2 initiative bonus, for "battle prowess". Then maybe 4+ int to skill points and a few extra skills and I think you've got decent class....

[ngilop]

Here's what I got so far. This is still very much a work in progress.

Neat-o fighter class and some feats.

I like what you have so far, but I fear you are straying into the whole ' fighter needs bigger numbers' territory which is the oposite way to go

You need to give the fighter more abilities that take other than the regular actions like a swift action to make himself act as though hasted for X rounds or an immediate action to take his adjacent allies damage like a pro version of shield other.

think outside the box on this one well not really think INSIDE the box. think of what you see a fighter doing at certain level intervals and create an ability along those lines, Like oh hey a fighter should at 14th level be able to not be exhausted so POW immunity to exhastion at level 14 you know things like that

[Psycho Yuffie]

I like what you have so far, but I fear you are straying into the whole ' fighter needs bigger numbers' territory which is the oposite way to go

You need to give the fighter more abilities that take other than the regular actions like a swift action to make himself act as though hasted for X rounds or an immediate action to take his adjacent allies damage like a pro version of shield other.

think outside the box on this one well not really think INSIDE the box. think of what you see a fighter doing at certain level intervals and create an ability along those lines, Like oh hey a fighter should at 14th level be able to not be exhausted so POW immunity to exhastion at level 14 you know things like that
How's this?

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a fighter may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. Also, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), you may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. You move into their space and the attack is considered to be rolled against you instead.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 15th level, once per day, a fighter may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

[ArcturusV]

Something I was thinking of as a potential game maker for the Fighter.

Make it so that they can swap out a feat at their levels as you have going on up there. Except that the feat they "Swap" out can still be considered "Active" if they swap out for a feat that has that feat as a prerequisite.

So, you could swap out say, Two-Weapon Fighting for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level four. You still count as having Two-Weapon Fighting for all intents and purposes.

But if you switched out say, Quick Draw for Greater Cleave, then no, you don't count as still having Quick Draw.

The reasoning here is to cut down on "Feat Tax" and one of the worst things for fighters, the "Feat Chain" which makes them barely competent at certain tactics at higher level after they're already rendered incompetent by the general powerhouse magic, etc.

It's not a HUGE fix... but hell, it's nice. And it's something that only a Fighter could do representing their true mastery of the art.

[Lans]

If you want a tier 4, thats pretty easy

Give the fighter a bonus feat every level
6 skill points a level and add spot, listen, and a few other skills to his list.

[Barsoom]

How's this?

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a fighter may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. Also, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, as an immediate action, a fighter may throw herself in the line of an attack to take the damage of an adjacent ally. The fighter and ally switch places. She may do this up to her Dexterity modifier each round.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 15th level, once per day, a fighter may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

And this coming from a person who dismissed the ToB maneuvers as too magical!? Really?

[Psycho Yuffie]

Something I was thinking of as a potential game maker for the Fighter.

Make it so that they can swap out a feat at their levels as you have going on up there. Except that the feat they "Swap" out can still be considered "Active" if they swap out for a feat that has that feat as a prerequisite.

So, you could swap out say, Two-Weapon Fighting for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level four. You still count as having Two-Weapon Fighting for all intents and purposes.

But if you switched out say, Quick Draw for Greater Cleave, then no, you don't count as still having Quick Draw.

The reasoning here is to cut down on "Feat Tax" and one of the worst things for fighters, the "Feat Chain" which makes them barely competent at certain tactics at higher level after they're already rendered incompetent by the general powerhouse magic, etc.

It's not a HUGE fix... but hell, it's nice. And it's something that only a Fighter could do representing their true mastery of the art.
I actually really like this idea. I could add it in as a clause to the Bonus Feats section.

[Zman]

I'm not a fan of ToB.

Here is my Zman's's Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14422338&postcount=1).

[Psycho Yuffie]

And this coming from a person who dismissed the ToB maneuvers as too magical!? Really?
Everything I have added can be explained through nonmagical logic. A warcry can fill allies with confidence and intimidate opponents. This can happen in real life without magic. A person who is excellent at reading the battlefield can tell when an ally needs help and go to their aid. Also, adrenaline is potent stuff. You wouldn't think it was magical if you've experienced it for yourself.

[ArcturusV]

Guardian should be reworded, as pointed out to be less "Magical". Here's the key phrasing I see being involved.

"If an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (Ranged, Touch, Ranged Touch, Melee), you may use an Attack of Opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. You move into their space, and the attack is considered to be rolled against you instead."

This seems to be about what you intended. It uses rules that people understand the terminology of. It also avoids "Teleporting" as the ability as you wrote it could jump in front of an arrow aimed at someone hundreds of feet away from you in a fraction of a second.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Guardian should be reworded, as pointed out to be less "Magical". Here's the key phrasing I see being involved.

"If an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (Ranged, Touch, Ranged Touch, Melee), you may use an Attack of Opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. You move into their space, and the attack is considered to be rolled against you instead."

This seems to be about what you intended. It uses rules that people understand the terminology of. It also avoids "Teleporting" as the ability as you wrote it could jump in front of an arrow aimed at someone hundreds of feet away from you in a fraction of a second.
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what I meant to say. I'll fix it.

[Palanan]

I have to say, as someone just wafting across the last few posts, I don't see anything remotely magical about Warcry, Guardian or Burst of Adrenaline.

Throwing yourself in front of a buddy, and/or swinging them out of harm's way, is a staple of heroic action scenes. Same goes for the other two.

Just sayin'.

[ArcturusV]

Now, if you wanted a higher level alternate to it, one thing you might have is:

Shieldmate (Ex):

You may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5' of Line of Effect from the attacker and your ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (Or your square), with a bonus to your AC or Saving Throw equal to half your fighter level, rounded down.

Example: An enemy mage casts a Fireball spell at your teammates, and you are within 5' of the line of effect from the enemy Wizard to the square he's targeting. You may use an Attack of Opportunity to step in the way of the attack, the Fireball is considered to be targeted on your square, and you get a bonus equal to half your fighter level to the Reflex save against it.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Now, if you wanted a higher level alternate to it, one thing you might have is:

Shieldmate (Ex):

You may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5' of Line of Effect from the attacker and your ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (Or your square), with a bonus to your AC or Saving Throw equal to half your fighter level, rounded down.

Example: An enemy mage casts a Fireball spell at your teammates, and you are within 5' of the line of effect from the enemy Wizard to the square he's targeting. You may use an Attack of Opportunity to step in the way of the attack, the Fireball is considered to be targeted on your square, and you get a bonus equal to half your fighter level to the Reflex save against it.
Couldn't this also work in combination with improved guard against magic?

[ArcturusV]

Could. But one thing, it seems like "Improved Guard against Magic" is completely redundant. The normal "Guard against Magic" already has the exact same ability.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Could. But one thing, it seems like "Improved Guard against Magic" is completely redundant. The normal "Guard against Magic" already has the exact same ability.
Whoops! Fixed that. It's good to have an editor. XD

[ArcturusV]

I'd drop the last half of the "Guard Against Magic" ability. What you describe the Fortitude save as doing is what saving throws do anyway. So just saying "Can make a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex Save" covers it anyway.

Unless your intention was for it to operate like Evasion and do no damage on a successful save (And full on a fail). And Improved Evasion for Improved Guard Against Magic would be as it's currently written.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Okay, so here's the updated version. Still trying to come up with a name. :p

Brutal Defender (Fighter Variant) (filler name)
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gnaeus, Gray Mage, Friv, Krobar, Lans, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon focus +1
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat, warcry
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dreadful wrath
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bravery, weapon focus +2
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, guard against magic
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Tough +1, guardian
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon focus +3
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Tough +2, burst of adrenaline
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon focus +4
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, shieldmate
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Tough +3
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon focus +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Tough +4
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

When a fighter learns a new feat that's part of a specific series, you may swap out the older feat for a new feat. For instance, when you satisfy the prerequesites for improved two-weapon fighting, you may swap it with two-weapon fighting. You technically lose two-weapon fighting, but you play as if you still have it active. You may not swap out a feat for an unrelated feat.

Combat Prowess (Ex): A fighter's experience with armed combat as made her familiar enough with weapons to give her an edge. A fighter's attack roll penalties while using two weapons is decreased by 2 and she may have her full Strength modifier on damage rolls made with her offhand weapon. In addition, she gains another 2 damage on power attacks, if she has the power attack feat.

Armor Agility (Ex): A fighter cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor, with the exception of Mountain Plate. Armor check penalties are reduced by 2.

Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat. This adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with the specified weapon. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties.

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a fighter may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. Also, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls.

Dreadful Wrath (Ex): At 3rd level, a fighter gains Dreadful Wrath as a bonus feat. When a fighter charges, makes a full attack, or casts a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, she gains the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of her must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 her character level + her Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. The fighter moves into the ally's space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead.

Tough (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter gains DR1/—. This increases by 1 every four levels after 7th level.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 11th level, once per day, a fighter may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 14th level, a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the fighter's ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (or your square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half your fighter level rounded down.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter gains an additional attack with her focused weapon at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon focus increases by 1.

Feats
Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[Gray Mage]

I have to say, as someone just wafting across the last few posts, I don't see anything remotely magical about Warcry, Guardian or Burst of Adrenaline.

Throwing yourself in front of a buddy, and/or swinging them out of harm's way, is a staple of heroic action scenes. Same goes for the other two.

Just sayin'.

That's true, but neither do I see anything remotely magical about 99% of Warblade maneuvers (there's only one that I believe pushes the Ex tag). I think it's less about how these are magical and more how both this and maneuvers are really similar, but ToB is still branded as "magic".

Edit: I think that the DR that the Tough ability grants is way too small for the levels the Fighter gets. Also, I think a boost against Will saves is important too.

[Psycho Yuffie]

That's true, but neither do I see anything remotely magical about 99% of Warblade maneuvers (there's only one that I believe pushes the Ex tag). I think it's less about how these are magical and more how both this and maneuvers are really similar, but ToB is still branded as "magic".
I wanted to discover something unique, instead of people just cheaply throwing warblade in my face every two seconds. Look at what the community has made so far. I think it's coming together nicely. It pays to get creative sometimes. :)

[Gray Mage]

I wanted to discover something unique, instead of people just cheaply throwing warblade in my face every two seconds. Look at what the community has made so far. I think it's coming together nicely. It pays to get creative sometimes. :)

Oh, I understand wanting to make something without ToB. I think it's great, actually, and if that's what you want, I agree that people simply saying use ToB isn't helpfull. I just dislike to see ToB (expecially Warblades) branded as magic, when in most cases, it isn't. :smallwink:

Anyway, back to the point at hand, I think you can afford to set Burst of Adrenaline (Ex) at an earlier level. Level 15 seems a bit too late for me.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Oh, I understand wanting to make something without ToB. I think it's great, actually, and if that's what you want, I agree that people simply saying use ToB isn't helpfull. I just dislike to see ToB (expecially Warblades) branded as magic, when in most cases, it isn't. :smallwink:

Anyway, back to the point at hand, I think you can afford to set Burst of Adrenaline (Ex) at an earlier level. Level 15 seems a bit too late for me.
Hmm... Would 11th level be about right? That still leaves 15th, 18th, and 19th as a bit dead... Would be popping in a few more cries be a bad idea? One mid-way and one later?

[ArcturusV]

Presuming you were going for my suggestion with the "Feat Trading" the ability needs to be reworded to work as intended.

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. If he chooses to learn a feat that requires the replaced feat as a prerequisite, he is still considered to have the prerequisite feat for the purposes of requirements for Feats, Abilities, and Prestige Class Qualifications. Otherwise the fighter may not replace a feat that is being used as a prerequisite for any other feat, ability, or prestige class.

Something like that.

[ngilop]

two things

1) put this up on the homebrew section, that way you get more critques and more ideas on how to work things from people who homebrew a lot of things.

2) OMG WAR CRIES!!!! that is something that LITERALLY i have not thought of doing for fighters or any class even though the 3rd ed Diablo game had the on the barbarian. You have inspired me to make a new set of feats for Fighters all based around warcries.

A great idea for burst of adrenaline would be at 11th level give them an extra move then at 15th it gives them an addtional move+ standard :)

at 19th you need to be looking at some CR 15+ monsters and see what kind of cool abilities they have and if you can replicate it decently for the fighter. for example.
Heroic Surge [Combat]
Prerequisite: Fighter Level 19th
Benefit: A Fighter can surge forth,as a swift action, in a burst of grace, speed and power a number of times per day equal to his consitution modifier. This surge acts like the spell Time Stop, except nothing is immune to your attacks.

though this is in feat version for my Fighter Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268577) you could easily make it a class feature

[Psycho Yuffie]

two things

1) put this up on the homebrew section, that way you get more critques and more ideas on how to work things from people who homebrew a lot of things.

2) OMG WAR CRIES!!!! that is something that LITERALLY i have not thought of doing for fighters or any class even though the 3rd ed Diablo game had the on the barbarian. You have inspired me to make a new set of feats for Fighters all based around warcries.

A great idea for burst of adrenaline would be at 11th level give them an extra move then at 15th it gives them an addtional move+ standard :)

at 19th you need to be looking at some CR 15+ monsters and see what kind of cool abilities they have and if you can replicate it decently for the fighter. for example.
Heroic Surge [Combat]
Prerequisite: Fighter Level 19th
Benefit: A Fighter can surge forth,as a swift action, in a burst of grace, speed and power a number of times per day equal to his consitution modifier. This surge acts like the spell Time Stop, except nothing is immune to your attacks.

though this is in feat version for my Fighter Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268577) you could easily make it a class feature
It would actually be cool if this entire thread could be moved to the homebrew section, honestly. I want to keep the community active in this project. I didn't originally set out for this to be a community project, but that's what it is now.

Also, there's already a feat called Heroic Surge. Once per day, you gain another standard action. It's from Dragonlance.

I've updated the class enough for it to deserve another update in a post. I've added more warcries. :)

Okay, so here's the updated version. Still trying to come up with a name. :p

Brutal Defender (Fighter Variant) (filler name)
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gnaeus, Gray Mage, Friv, Krobar, Lans, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon focus +1
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat, battle warcry
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Dreadful wrath
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bravery, weapon focus +2
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, guard against magic
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Tough +1, guardian
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon focus +3, defender warcry
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Tough +2, burst of adrenaline
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon focus +4
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, shieldmate
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Tough +3, blood warcry
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon focus +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat, banshee warcry
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Tough +4
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

When a fighter learns a new feat that's part of a specific series, you may swap out the older feat for a new feat. For instance, when you satisfy the prerequesites for improved two-weapon fighting, you may swap it with two-weapon fighting. You technically lose two-weapon fighting, but you play as if you still have it active. You may not swap out a feat for an unrelated feat.

Combat Prowess (Ex): A fighter's experience with armed combat as made her familiar enough with weapons to give her an edge. A fighter's attack roll penalties while using two weapons is decreased by 2 and she may have her full Strength modifier on damage rolls made with her offhand weapon. In addition, she gains another 2 damage on power attacks, if she has the power attack feat.

Armor Agility (Ex): A fighter cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor, with the exception of Mountain Plate. Armor check penalties are reduced by 2.

Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat. This adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with the specified weapon. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties.

Battle Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a fighter may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. Also, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma modifier rounds. She may do this once per encounter.

Dreadful Wrath (Ex): At 3rd level, a fighter gains Dreadful Wrath as a bonus feat. When a fighter charges, makes a full attack, or casts a spell that either targets an enemy or includes an enemy in its area, she gains the frightful presence ability for that round. Each enemy within a 20-foot radius of her must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 her character level + her Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 1 minute. Regardless of its success or failure on the saving throw, any creature exposed to this effect is immune to your frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is an extraordinary morale effect.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. The fighter moves into the ally's space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead.

Tough (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter gains DR1/—. This increases by 1 every four levels after 7th level.

Defender Warcry (Ex): Beginning 9th level, a fighter may cry and bang on her shield or armor as a free action to give herself and all allies within 30 feet a +4 morale bonus to AC. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma modifier rounds. She may do this once per encounter.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 11th level, once per day, a fighter may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 14th level, a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the fighter's ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (or your square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half your fighter level rounded down.

Blood Warcry (Ex): Beginning 15th level, a fighter may cry as a murderous scream, ampliflying the adrenaline in her allies, as a free action to give herself and all allies within 30 feet a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma modifier rounds. She may do this once per encounter.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning 18th level, a fighter may cry as a horrendously frightening scream, terrifying her enemies, as a free action. All enemies within 60 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they flee from the fighter as quickly as they can. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma modifier rounds. She may do this once per day.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter gains an additional attack with her focused weapon at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon focus increases by 1.

Feats
Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[Gray Mage]

Hmm... Would 11th level be about right? That still leaves 15th, 18th, and 19th as a bit dead... Would be popping in a few more cries be a bad idea? One mid-way and one later?

Well, I'm hardly an expert, but I believe it's better. :smallsmile:

Also, I think some more battlefield control would be good, maybe something to give/increse reach would be neat too.

[Palanan]

No one could ever confuse me for an expert, but I think it's great. :smalltongue:

I would recommend reposting your latest version (post #83 in this thread) as a new thread in Homebrew, so you can get a fresh round of critiques from the brewin' crew without their having to read the first 82 posts here. You can link them back to this thread if they want to follow along the stages that led you to this point, but I'd really suggest posting this anew in Homebrew.

And, I like the warcry concept. I do believe I'll be giving this a test drive in my own campaign, if you don't mind.

[Gray Mage]

I would recommend reposting your latest version (post #83 in this thread) as a new thread in Homebrew, so you can get a fresh round of critiques from the brewin' crew without their having to read the first 82 posts here. You can link them back to this thread if they want to follow along the stages that led you to this point, but I'd really suggest posting this anew in Homebrew.


I think it's better to have the whole thread there, not just the latest version. I think it's good to see the logic behind the idea.

I'd suggest editing the first post to have the latest version, though.

[Psycho Yuffie]

I think it's better to have the whole thread there, not just the latest version. I think it's good to see the logic behind the idea.

I'd suggest editing the first post to have the latest version, though.
I agree. If I make a new thread, no one there will know the history behind this variant. They won't know how we pooled our minds to create it. I think that's important to know: this was the result of a community. :)

Also, I posted the latest version on the first post, per request. :p

[Pickford]

Guardian should be reworded, as pointed out to be less "Magical". Here's the key phrasing I see being involved.

"If an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (Ranged, Touch, Ranged Touch, Melee), you may use an Attack of Opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. You move into their space, and the attack is considered to be rolled against you instead."

This seems to be about what you intended. It uses rules that people understand the terminology of. It also avoids "Teleporting" as the ability as you wrote it could jump in front of an arrow aimed at someone hundreds of feet away from you in a fraction of a second.

It's the same ability the Devoted Defender had in 3.0:

(paraphrased)
Harm's Way: Beginning at 1st level the Devoted Defender may elect to place herself in the path of danger, any time you are within 5 feet of your charge and they are attacked you may switch places and receive the attack roll as a free action. Your charge is selected when rolling initiative and may not change for the duration of the combat.

[ngilop]

I think I'm in love...


:)

You are doing a stand up Job Psycho Yuffie. I tip my hat to you and your fighter endeavors.

[ArcturusV]

Never saw that. Interesting, but the Guardian variant I suggested is actually a bit stronger as you can also push anyone any direction, potentially setting them up for a flank later in the turn, or getting them farther out of the line of fire, etc. Reminds me of an old class I cooked up in 2nd edition, the Queen's Champion. So it only makes sense that abilities will get repeated over the years.

[Psycho Yuffie]

I'm thinking of making this a series. I take a base class and see if we can make it better. I was thinking of naming it Can We Fix It? lol

[ngilop]

the single most genuis idea ive ever seen on these forums.


I am not sure if i said this or not, but..

I think I'm in love..

[Psycho Yuffie]

Is the current build pretty final, though?

[Gray Mage]

Is the current build pretty final, though?

I'd say no. While it's better, a big part of it is just numerical boosts, I'd still like to see some more bfc, and Tough seems way to little for the levels that they're set.

Wouldn't it be better to make Battle and Banshee Warcry one ability that scales with class levels? Plus, Battle Warcry is very Similar to Dreadful Wrath, and the three of them are very similar. Making them one ability that scales, going from Shaken to Paniked in the end, would be a cleaner design, IMO.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Here's an update with Gray Mage's changes. :)

Brutal Defender (Fighter Variant) (filler name)
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gnaeus, Gray Mage, Friv, Krobar, Lans, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon focus +1
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat, warcry
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Battle warcry, warcry 2/day
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bravery, weapon focus +2, dreadful warcry
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, guard against magic
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Guardian, warcry 3/day
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon focus +3, defender warcry
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Burst of adrenaline, warcry 4/day
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon focus +4
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, shieldmate
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Blood warcry, warcry 5/day
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon focus +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat, banshee warcry
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Warcry 6/day
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

When a fighter learns a new feat that's part of a specific series, you may swap out the older feat for a new feat. For instance, when you satisfy the prerequesites for improved two-weapon fighting, you may swap it with two-weapon fighting. You technically lose two-weapon fighting, but you play as if you still have it active. You may not swap out a feat for an unrelated feat.

Combat Prowess (Ex): A fighter's experience with armed combat as made her familiar enough with weapons to give her an edge. A fighter's attack roll penalties while using two weapons is decreased by 2 and she may have her full Strength modifier on damage rolls made with her offhand weapon. In addition, she gains another 2 damage on power attacks, if she has the power attack feat.

Armor Agility (Ex): A fighter cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor, with the exception of Mountain Plate. Armor check penalties are reduced by 2.

Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat. This adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with the specified weapon. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties.

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a fighter may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma modifier rounds. At 2nd level, she may warcry 1/day. This increases by 1 at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

Battle Warcry (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Dreadful Warcry (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are shaken. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. The fighter moves into the ally's space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead.

Defender Warcry (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the fighter receive a +4 morale bonus to AC. The will save to avoid the effects of the battle and dread warcry increase to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a fighter may make a full attack as a standard action.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 11th level, once per day, a fighter may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round as a swift action. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 14th level, a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the fighter's ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (or your square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half your fighter level rounded down.

Blood Warcry (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the fighter receive a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are panicked. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter gains an additional attack with her focused weapon at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon focus increases by 1.

Feats
[NEW!] Extra Warcry
Prerequisites: Warcry as a class ability
Benefit: You may warcry an extra two times per day.

Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[DMVerdandi]

Honestly, WOTC already perfected it. Just not in DND. Instead, they did in star wars saga edition with the soldier. And in THAT, the fighter's true manifestation becomes apparent.
Feats are nice little tricks.

What the fighter needs is TALENTS. Class features that only fighters can have, that scale in strength, stay relevent, and build on eachother with only the talent before being a prerequisite.

Now here is my proposition. Fighter talents are based on ABILITY SCORES. While talents for other classes may be based on certains schools or archetypes, fighters are so generic that their abilities are based on nothing but raw talent.

Here are my suggestions.
Three skills per tree, six trees, all have a talent bonus for purchasing the first skill.

1. Brute (Strength talent).
Talent bonus: Power attack feat
A. Strong arm
Each attack made does 1d4 extra damage+1 per 2 levels.

B. Crushing Attack
Prerequisite: strong arm
A full round action can be made to ignore hardness of an object with a single attack made at the highest base attack bonus.

C.Juggernaut
Pre-requisite:Crushing attack
Add +4 to strength score.


2.Skirmisher
Talent Bonus: Gain Hide, move silently, and escape artist.

A. Fast Runner
+5 to speed/level

B. Pounce
Pre-requisite: Fast Runner
On a charge attack, a full attack can be made.

C.Deft hands
Pre-requisite: Pounce
Add dexterity bonus to attack and damage of all attacks.


3.Tank
Talent Bonus: Gain Concentration and Heal skills.

A. Damage reduction
Gain DR1/3 levels

B.Bellowing strikes
Pre-requisite:Damage reduction
Add constitution modifier to damage with melee attacks.

C. Resist status effects
Use concentration check to resist status effects instead of save.

4. Tactician
Talent Bonus: All Knowledge skills
A.Weapon Savant
Proficiency with all weapons

B.Hit where it hurts
Prerequisite: Weapon Savant
Take a full round to study one target.
For a number of rounds equal to INT modifier, against that one creature, all attacks are touch attacks.

Canny Defence
Prerequisite: Hit where it hurts
Take a full round to study one target,
Against that one target for the rest of the encounter, add INT modifier to AC.

5. Intuitive
Talent Bonus: Gain Spot, Listen, Survival skills
A.Feel the flow
Add Wisdom modifier to AC and Attack

B.No tears,No fears
Pre-requisite: Feel the flow
Immunity to all Fear Effects

B.Pierce the veil
Immunity to enchantment and illusion effects.

6.Commander
Talent Bonus: Gain Diplomacy and Intimidation

A. Imperium
Gain Marshal Auras.

B. Auctoritas
Pre-requisite: Imperium
Gain leadership feat.

C.Dignitas
Pre-requisite: Auctoritas
Add Charisma modifier to AC and Attack




Those would be the ability talents, in which only two would be able to be purchased. There would also be talents for special abilities like precise strikes and frenzies. A magic weapon talent and one for things like dodging and defence would also be in order.

Once one buys a talent, they must finish the tree until they learn all three talents, and from there new talents can be selected. They would be learnable at each even level, giving someone 9 talents from 3 trees, and a capstone at the end.


For feats, make them rolling like the chameleon, and get bonus feats every three levels.

Yeah? No?

[Psycho Yuffie]

Honestly, WOTC already perfected it. Just not in DND. Instead, they did in star wars saga edition with the soldier. And in THAT, the fighter's true manifestation becomes apparent.
Feats are nice little tricks.

What the fighter needs is TALENTS. Class features that only fighters can have, that scale in strength, stay relevent, and build on eachother with only the talent before being a prerequisite.

Now here is my proposition. Fighter talents are based on ABILITY SCORES. While talents for other classes may be based on certains schools or archetypes, fighters are so generic that their abilities are based on nothing but raw talent.

Here are my suggestions.
Three skills per tree, six trees, all have a talent bonus for purchasing the first skill.

1. Brute (Strength talent).
Talent bonus: Power attack feat
A. Strong arm
Each attack made does 1d4 extra damage+1 per 2 levels.

B. Crushing Attack
Prerequisite: strong arm
A full round action can be made to ignore hardness of an object with a single attack made at the highest base attack bonus.

C.Juggernaut
Pre-requisite:Crushing attack
Add +4 to strength score.


2.Skirmisher
Talent Bonus: Gain Hide, move silently, and escape artist.

A. Fast Runner
+5 to speed/level

B. Pounce
Pre-requisite: Fast Runner
On a charge attack, a full attack can be made.

C.Deft hands
Pre-requisite: Pounce
Add dexterity bonus to attack and damage of all attacks.


3.Tank
Talent Bonus: Gain Concentration and Heal skills.

A. Damage reduction
Gain DR1/3 levels

B.Bellowing strikes
Pre-requisite:Damage reduction
Add constitution modifier to damage with melee attacks.

C. Resist status effects
Use concentration check to resist status effects instead of save.

4. Tactician
Talent Bonus: All Knowledge skills
A.Weapon Savant
Proficiency with all weapons

B.Hit where it hurts
Prerequisite: Weapon Savant
Take a full round to study one target.
For a number of rounds equal to INT modifier, against that one creature, all attacks are touch attacks.

Canny Defence
Prerequisite: Hit where it hurts
Take a full round to study one target,
Against that one target for the rest of the encounter, add INT modifier to AC.

5. Intuitive
Talent Bonus: Gain Spot, Listen, Survival skills
A.Feel the flow
Add Wisdom modifier to AC and Attack

B.No tears,No fears
Pre-requisite: Feel the flow
Immunity to all Fear Effects

B.Pierce the veil
Immunity to enchantment and illusion effects.

6.Commander
Talent Bonus: Gain Diplomacy and Intimidation

A. Imperium
Gain Marshal Auras.

B. Auctoritas
Pre-requisite: Imperium
Gain leadership feat.

C.Dignitas
Pre-requisite: Auctoritas
Add Charisma modifier to AC and Attack




Those would be the ability talents, in which only two would be able to be purchased. There would also be talents for special abilities like precise strikes and frenzies. A magic weapon talent and one for things like dodging and defence would also be in order.

Once one buys a talent, they must finish the tree until they learn all three talents, and from there new talents can be selected. They would be learnable at each even level, giving someone 9 talents from 3 trees, and a capstone at the end.


For feats, make them rolling like the chameleon, and get bonus feats every three levels.

Yeah? No?
Problem is that a lot of those talents already exist as class abilities in our variant. You're basically asking us to restructure the entire variant.

[DMVerdandi]

Problem is that a lot of those talents already exist as class abilities in our variant. You're basically asking us to restructure the entire variant.

Well, It's not really that hard of a restructuring.
Keep Base fighter, Add talents in the dead levels.

One of the things that make fighter appealing is not truly it's mediocrity, but its modular nature. The idea that any two fighters are not alike.
Your restructuring makes them all the same. They all yell, they all are good with shields, ect.


Yes, yours is very similar to mine, but I truly didn't look at yours.
(I actually left to go to classes, and watched a movie with my suite mates. I only finished writing it from the post screen after I posted it. Started at like six, but anyway...)

We simply got to the same conclusion of abilities, but with different methods.
My method however has been in existence for quite a bit. First with d20 modern, and then with starwars saga edition.

The talent method just adds that much more modularity.
Everyone has access to the trees, but everyone doesn't take each one. You pick and choose until you get what you want.


Also the boon in having thematic trees is that you can always make new talents. The formula is one talent bonus, and three abilities. Simple, direct, and sweet. In fact, talent trees could be learned around certain skills (VERY similar to how 4E works.)

[Psycho Yuffie]

Well, It's not really that hard of a restructuring.
Keep Base fighter, Add talents in the dead levels.

One of the things that make fighter appealing is not truly it's mediocrity, but its modular nature. The idea that any two fighters are not alike.
Your restructuring makes them all the same. They all yell, they all are good with shields, ect.


Yes, yours is very similar to mine, but I truly didn't look at yours.
(I actually left to go to classes, and watched a movie with my suite mates. I only finished writing it from the post screen after I posted it. Started at like six, but anyway...)

We simply got to the same conclusion of abilities, but with different methods.
My method however has been in existence for quite a bit. First with d20 modern, and then with starwars saga edition.

The talent method just adds that much more modularity.
Everyone has access to the trees, but everyone doesn't take each one. You pick and choose until you get what you want.


Also the boon in having thematic trees is that you can always make new talents. The formula is one talent bonus, and three abilities. Simple, direct, and sweet. In fact, talent trees could be learned around certain skills (VERY similar to how 4E works.)
The variant that we built is still pretty customizable. It still has all of the bonus feats intact. I just don't feel like it's possible to add any kind of special talents or powers on top of what we already have, unless we're cutting loose and deciding for a tier 1 class.

I have no idea what tier our current variant would be.

[Stouts]

The variant that we built is still pretty customizable. It still has all of the bonus feats intact. I just don't feel like it's possible to add any kind of special talents or powers on top of what we already have, unless we're cutting loose and deciding for a tier 1 class.

I have no idea what tier our current variant would be.

Your proposed variant is a big improvement over base fighter, and looks interesting to play. The problem that I find, though, is that while it is built off of a fighter chassis, it doesn't really have a fighter feel. I kind of like the shouts, but question whether this class should really be tied to charisma. I like the idea of feat versatility, but that combined with combat prowess make this of much more benefit to a two-weapon fighter than a 2H or S&S fighter.

If this were one of a couple variants of a new fighter suite (call it reaver?), then I'd be all for it. But if you're looking for a single, no-variants class that delivers on the Fighter promise? I think DMVerdandi is closer to the mark there. (though those suggestions also need some fine tuning)

[Gwendol]

Armor agility: I suggest swapping it for the Knight ability Armor Mastery. In fact, you can just look at the Knight and give your fighter some of those class abilities in addition to the feats (take away the Knight challenge, as those are very specific for that class). I mean, who wouldn't want to have Bulwark of Defence?

Other than that: scale feats, and make specific improvements to certain feats available to fighters only.
Also, contrary to the barbarian, the fighter is supposed to represent the trained soldier. In such, they should gain advantages when fighting together. Naturally, there are feats for that, but it could be hardwired into the class.

[Suddo]

Swap-able feats is the only way I can think of to make them more viable. This combined with any/all of the following: d12 HD; 4+Int skill points / level; Stuff they gave in pathfinder.

The swap-able feats is basically by meditating/practicing you can become re-accustomed to certain fighting styles. This manifests itself by allowing you to swap out these feats for others. These should be a few feat not all you feats. You can also allow them to be swapped X-times per day (or per practice) as a swift action.

This allows the fighter to be a tripper, sunderer, grappler, two-weaponer, two-hander and sword and board all at the same time. It allows them to look a room full of equal sized enemies and be a tripper but then to change to a two-hander when you send a big dragon at them. It allows them to actually be versitile after they pick what they want to do the majority of the time.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Armor agility: I suggest swapping it for the Knight ability Armor Mastery. In fact, you can just look at the Knight and give your fighter some of those class abilities in addition to the feats (take away the Knight challenge, as those are very specific for that class). I mean, who wouldn't want to have Bulwark of Defence?
Armor Mastery is inferior to Armor Agility, so I'm not sure about that, but I did include Challenge.

Brutal Defender (Fighter Variant) (filler name)
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gnaeus, Gray Mage, Gwendol, Friv, Krobar, Lans, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon focus +1
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat, warcry, challenge
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Battle warcry, warcry 2/day
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bravery, weapon focus +2, dreadful warcry
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, guard against magic
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Guardian, warcry 3/day, challenge +2
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon focus +3, defender warcry
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Burst of adrenaline, warcry 4/day
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon focus +4, challenge +3
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, shieldmate
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Blood warcry, warcry 5/day
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon focus +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat, banshee warcry
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Warcry 6/day, challenge +4
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Brutal defenders have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Brutal defenders love to have high Strength to deal more damage, high Consitution to take more hits, but their real bread and butter is Charisma. Charisma determines how effective their warcries are against enemies.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The brutal defender’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the brutal defender.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brutal defender is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a brutal defender gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the brutal defender gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.” A brutal defender level is equivalent to a fighter level.

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the brutal defender loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A brutal defender can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

When a brutal defender learns a new feat that's part of a specific series, you may swap out the older feat for a new feat. For instance, when you satisfy the prerequisites for improved two-weapon fighting, you may swap it with two-weapon fighting. You technically lose two-weapon fighting, but you play as if you still have it active. You may not swap out a feat for an unrelated feat.

Combat Prowess (Ex): A brutal defender's experience with armed combat as made her familiar enough with weapons to give her an edge. A brutal defender's attack roll penalties while using two weapons is decreased by 2 and she may have her full Strength modifier on damage rolls made with her offhand weapon. In addition, she gains another 2 damage on power attacks, if she has the power attack feat.

Armor Agility (Ex): A brutal defender cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor, with the exception of Mountain Plate. Armor check penalties are reduced by 2.

Challenge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brutal defender can challenge a single enemy as a swift action. This enemy must make a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Charisma modifier. If the enemy fails, you receive a +1 morale bonus to Will saving throws and a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls against the opponent. At 7th level, 13th level, and 19th level, these bonuses increase by 1.

Weapon Focus (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brutal defender gains Weapon Focus. This ability adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with the specified weapon. This bonus increases by 1 every four levels after 1st level. For the purposes of satisfying feat prerequisites, you may take feat that require Weapon Focus as if you had the feat. These bonuses stack with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties.

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a brutal defender may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the brutal defender's Charisma modifier rounds. At 2nd level, she may warcry 1/day. This increases by 1 at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

Battle Warcry (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry, all enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Dreadful Warcry (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are shaken. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a brutal defender is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a brutal defender can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a brutal defender may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. The brutal defender moves into the ally's space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead.

Defender Warcry (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the brutal defender receive a +4 morale bonus to AC. The will save to avoid the effects of the battle and dread warcry increase to 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a brutal defender may make a full attack as a standard action.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 11th level, once per day, a brutal defender may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round as a swift action. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 14th level, a brutal defender may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the brutal defender's ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (or your square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half your brutal defender level rounded down.

Blood Warcry (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the brutal defender receive a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are panicked. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a brutal defender gains an additional attack with her focused weapon at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon focus increases by 1.

Feats
Extra Warcry
Prerequisites: Warcry as a class ability
Benefit: You may warcry an extra two times per day.

Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

[NEW!] Improved Challenge
Prerequisites: Challenge as a class ability.
Benefit: Your benefits of challenge increase by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[Xerxus]

Profanity below:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh01ygvBpG1qfiaioo1_400.jpg

This is what most people would agree on regarding the 3.5 Fighter as is. Which is why they made the Warblade. Wrong move imo.

[Frozen_Feet]

What, no give them class features, just go straight to altering the fundamental combat mechanics of the system to make a huge exception for Fighters and only Fighters? :smallconfused:
Your question makes baby jesus cry.

Read the Improved [Foo] line of feats. Their sole function is altering fundamentals of the combat system in favor of a character who has them. In fact that is how most so-called class features work in 3.x.'s exception-based framework.

The problem is that whoever fashioned the feat system did not understand its potential. Each feat could be worth of a new spell level or "class feature" on their own.

The way people keep tacking on extra "class features" instead of rolling them up with existing class features known as fighter bonus feats. The sheer unwillingness to improve upon the existing system bogles the mind.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Your question makes baby jesus cry.

Read the Improved [Foo] line of feats. Their sole function is altering fundamentals of the combat system in favor of a character who has them. In fact that is how most so-called class features work in 3.x.'s exception-based framework.

The problem is that whoever fashioned the feat system did not understand its potential. Each feat could be worth of a new spell level or "class feature" on their own.

The way people keep tacking on extra "class features" instead of rolling them up with existing class features known as fighter bonus feats. The sheer unwillingness to improve upon the existing system bogles the mind.
This may have just inspired me. I might have to do something with this if we ever try to fix the fighter again.

[Gwendol]

I don't think the fighting challenge is typical for a trained soldier, and my suggestion was specifically to leave the knight challenges be. Take a look at the other class features however, like vigilant defender, shield other, etc.

Make those into fighter feats, and make fighters taking those feats qualify for better versions of them (based on class level and/or feat synergies) and you start having something nice. I like the idea of the fighter class, just not the available feats.

[Person_Man]

My 2 cp, which you should feel free to ignore:

"When a brutal defender learns a new feat that's part of a specific series, you may swap out the older feat for a new feat...." I would drop this. As it's currently worded, it's open to too much confusing abuse.

The Charisma based abilities make the Fighter MAD, which is bad. Consider Strength or Constitution based abilities instead.

I also hate abilities that grant minor bonuses, and I think the Brutal Defender is overloaded with too many minor abilities, especially at low levels. So I personally would never play this class. I would encourage you to combine and/or rewrite them in such a way that your abilities grant fewer, more meaningful new options, and not just a parade of +/-2ish to something.

Possible examples:

Replace Tower Shield proficiency with proficiency with your choice of a single Exotic Weapon, Exotic Armor, Dwarvern Armor, Exotic Shield, or Tower Shield.
Combat Prowess: Whenever the Fighter willingly takes a penalty to-hit on an attack roll as a result of one of his Feats, the penalty is divided by one-half (minimum 1), without negatively impacting the bonuses gained from the Feat. This includes penalties from Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Two Weapon Fighting Feats. (This probably needs to be reworded, but you get the gist).
Armor Agility: As worded, it basically penalizes dwarves (who already have the "no movement penalty in armor" ability). I would eliminate it, or remake it something useful like "you add your Constitution bonus as a bonus to your Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor,, up to a maximum of one-half your Fighter class level" or "you ignore one-half of the armor check penalty from any medium or heavy armor or shield that you wear." or both as separate abilities gained at different levels.
Weapon Focus: If the Fighter takes the Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, or Greater Weapon Specialization Feats, they apply to all weapons, instead of a single weapon. At 10th level (or whatever) the bonuses gained from these feats are doubled. I would also rename the ability, to avoid confusion with the Weapon Focus Feat.
Challenge & Warcrys: Again, I would eliminate the minor bonuses/penalties, and replace them with useful abilities. Take a look at the Knight, Warchanter, Warchief, Marshal, etc. And again, I would never make them Cha based, which is the Bard and Paladin's niche.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, that confusing lingo there Person Man was developed by me when I probably should have been sleeping.

The idea I wanted being to cut down a bit on the "Feat Tax" of the various Feat Chains by allowing you to swap out a Feat you already had, for an improved version of the feat, and still count as having the original feat for Pre-reqs.

I dunno. Just never really liked that you were expected to do something like sink 5-7 feats into being barely competent with Two-Weapon Fighting, 5-7 more at being "okay" with it. Resulting in you having to reach a level where Mundane characters are no longer effective, and it's magic equipment that matters most (And spells), just to be "effective" at your designed role.

Granted the swapping I think happens a bit too slow to help alleviate it. But that was the idea I was thinking of at the time.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Brutal Defender (Fighter Variant) (filler name)
Made by ArcturusV, Coidzor, darklink_shadow, Gnaeus, Gray Mage, Gwendol, Friv, Krobar, Lans, Lonely Tylenol, ngilop, Person_Man, Psycho Yuffie

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, combat prowess, armor agility, weapon training +1
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat, warcry, challenge
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Battle warcry, warcry 2/day
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat, body building +1
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bravery, weapon training +2, dreadful warcry
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat, guard against magic
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Guardian, warcry 3/day, challenge +2
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat, body building +2
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Weapon training +3, defender warcry
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat, swift attack
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Burst of adrenaline, warcry 4/day
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat, body building +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Weapon training +4, challenge +3
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat, shieldmate
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Blood warcry, warcry 5/day
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat, body building +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Weapon training +5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat, banshee warcry
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Warcry 6/day, challenge +4
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus feat, quick weapon, body building +5[/table]

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Brutal defenders have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Brutal defenders love to have high Strength to deal more damage, high Consitution to take more hits, increases their AC, and makes their warcries harder to resist.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The brutal defender’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride, (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the brutal defender.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brutal defender is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields). The brutal defender may select one of the following: an exotic weapon, an exotic armor, a dwarven armor, an exotic shield, or tower shield. The brutal defender gains proficiency with the selected weapon, armor, or shield.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a brutal defender gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the brutal defender gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.” A brutal defender level is equivalent to a fighter level.

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the brutal defender loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A brutal defender can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

When a brutal defender learns a new feat that has the word "improved" or "greater," she may choose to remove the previous feat in the feat chain from her list (if it was part of a feat chain). The brutal defender still plays as if she has the previous feat, but it is freed to be spent on a new feat.

Combat Prowess (Ex): Whenever a brutal defender takes a penalty on her attack roll as a result of a feat, she may reduce the penalty by one-half.

Armor Agility (Ex): A brutal defender cannot be slowed down by medium and heavy armor. She may choose to add her Constitution modifier to her AC, up to one-half her brutal defender level (minimum 1) as a natural armor bonus. Armor check penalties are reduced by one-half.

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a brutal defender gains Weapon Training. This ability adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with any weapon the brutal defender is proficient with. This bonus doubles with every four levels after 1st level. These bonuses stack with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and weapon properties, except that these feats now apply to all weapons the brutal defender is proficient with instead of a single weapon. In addition, feats that would increase bonuses to attack and damage rolls are increased by two times.

Challenge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brutal defender can challenge a single enemy as a swift action. This enemy must make a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Constitution modifier. If the enemy fails, you receive a +1 morale bonus to Will saving throws and a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls against the opponent. At 7th level, 13th level, and 19th level, these bonuses increase by 1.

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a brutal defender may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the brutal defender's Constitution modifier rounds. At 2nd level, she may warcry 1/day. This increases by 1 at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

Battle Warcry (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry, all enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Constitution modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Body Building (Ex): Starting at 4th level, any time you would increase an ability score through level progression, you may also increase a physical ability score by 1. This ability must be different from the one you increased the same level.

Dreadful Warcry (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Constitution modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are shaken. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Bravery (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a brutal defender is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a brutal defender can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead.

Guardian (Ex): At 7th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a brutal defender may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet in any direction. The brutal defender moves into the ally's space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead.

Defender Warcry (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the brutal defender receive a +4 morale bonus to AC. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Swift Attack (Ex): Beginning 10th level, a brutal defender may make a full attack as a standard action with any weapon she has proficiency.

Burst of Adrenaline (Ex): Starting at 11th level, once per day, a brutal defender may gain an additional movement action and standard action each round as a swift action. This ability lasts for as many rounds as your Constitution modifier.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 14th level, a brutal defender may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if you are within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the brutal defender's ally. You must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike you (or your square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half your brutal defender level rounded down.

Blood Warcry (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the brutal defender receive a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Constitution modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are panicked. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Quick Weapon (Ex): At 20th level, a brutal defender gains an additional attack with any weapon she is proficient at her highest attack bonus. In addition, her weapon training increases by 1.

Feats
Extra Warcry
Prerequisites: Warcry as a class ability
Benefit: You may warcry an extra two times per day.

Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: Fighter 4, Weapon Focus as a class feature
Benefit: Increases your bonuses to attack and damage rolls from Weapon Focus by 2.

[NEW!] Improved Challenge
Prerequisites: Challenge as a class ability.
Benefit: Your benefits of challenge increase by 2.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 2
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by 2.

Greater Combat Maneuvers
Prerequisites: Fighter 8, Improved Combat Maneuvers
Benefit: Increases your CMB for Sundering and Disarming by an additional 2. This feat stacks with Improved Combat Maneuvers.

[ArcturusV]

You know, I was just thinking about it... instead of having the Warcry last X rounds where X is 1 + Con Bonus, minimum 1, I'd like to see it kind of divorced from "Rage" in how Rage Works, once a day (At low level) you rock face, but only that one time.

So have it be instead something like a fixed round limitation. 1 round at "Warcry" on second level. But give it a starting rate not of 1/day but of 1 + Con Modifier per day. Then level up instead of giving uses gives Duration, space out the leveling bonuses so there isn't quite as many.

I dunno... just... feels more "Right". When you get the ability it isn't a short term magic bullet. It turns into a trick you can pull out, presuming most fighter builds I see, probably 3-4 times per day. Meaning you could use it during most fights you run into. Or stack it up all on one fight so it's mechanically the same as the Warcry already is. More flexibility.

Might also want to add a clause that says you can't do it during a Rage. Usual "it requires concentration" and such. Just to make it so Level 2 fighter isn't still a simple little dip. Presuming that's a goal and you want to see things like Fighter 9 instead of "Barbarian 7, Fighter 2." or "Barbarian 2, Fighter 2, Ranger 2, Tome of Battle Class 3".

[ngilop]

Im going to go against the grain here and say " why the hell not?" in regards to fighters having some abilities that work off of charisma?

It makes no sense that how healthy one is is how long your shouts effects last!

make the shouts charisma again just for the sake of consistency.

I HATE it when peopel FORCE the fighter into the BIG and STUPID fighter. Maynbe you guys want every person who fights to be a complete moron with only his brawn to carry him, but I enjoy having smart and cunning and exemplar standing fighters.

The war cries are already mini-inspires so why not just allow somebody who wants to play a forceful commander of a fighter who put a 14 in his charisma to have his shouts? instead you want to punish somebody who don;t want to be the big strupid guy who just stands there and power attacks alla day becuse "SWORD GO IN FACE RWARW!'

that crap is why 3rd ed crapped the fighter so bad in the beginning all you are doing is crapping him out even more by smackign what was a good idea down to a ' your not allowed to be anything but strong, big and dumb fighter.'

[ArcturusV]

You're not really against my own point of view. I like the charismatic fighter and such. The system doesn't support it. And that MAD status often regulates a class to never used or Weakest Link. I mean I liked it back in the day when being a high level fighter meant that I was leading armies, commanding cities and potentially nations, etc. Not just hitting slightly bigger things with my metal stick and hitting them harder.

[Psycho Yuffie]

New Feats!

Improved Weapon Prowess
Prerequisites: Weapon prowess as a class ability
Benefit: When a penalty is reduced to -1 with weapon prowess, it is now reduced to 0 with improved weapon prowess.

Greater Weapon Prowess
Prerequisites: Weapon prowess as a class ability, improved weapon prowess
Benefit: Penalties to attack rolls given by feats are reduced by a further one-half.


Im going to go against the grain here and say " why the hell not?" in regards to fighters having some abilities that work off of charisma?

It makes no sense that how healthy one is is how long your shouts effects last!

make the shouts charisma again just for the sake of consistency.

I HATE it when peopel FORCE the fighter into the BIG and STUPID fighter. Maynbe you guys want every person who fights to be a complete moron with only his brawn to carry him, but I enjoy having smart and cunning and exemplar standing fighters.

The war cries are already mini-inspires so why not just allow somebody who wants to play a forceful commander of a fighter who put a 14 in his charisma to have his shouts? instead you want to punish somebody who don;t want to be the big strupid guy who just stands there and power attacks alla day becuse "SWORD GO IN FACE RWARW!'

that crap is why 3rd ed crapped the fighter so bad in the beginning all you are doing is crapping him out even more by smackign what was a good idea down to a ' your not allowed to be anything but strong, big and dumb fighter.'
Honestly, I liked it better when it was charisma-based too. Made a lot more sense.

[Stouts]

New Feats!
Honestly, I liked it better when it was charisma-based too. Made a lot more sense.

Charisma does make more sense for the ability, and there's nothing saying that you shouldn't be able to make a charismatic fighter. The problem is that, as a cut-out martial type that you fill in with feats, it makes no sense that the fighter should be forcibly tied to charisma.

So, if swapping charisma makes the ability counter-intuitive (which it does), and if keeping a charisma-dependency is detrimental to the class (which it is), then the ability itself needs to be reexamined.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Charisma does make more sense for the ability, and there's nothing saying that you shouldn't be able to make a charismatic fighter. The problem is that, as a cut-out martial type that you fill in with feats, it makes no sense that the fighter should be forcibly tied to charisma.

So, if swapping charisma makes the ability counter-intuitive (which it does), and if keeping a charisma-dependency is detrimental to the class (which it is), then the ability itself needs to be reexamined.
Keep in mind that this is a fighter variant. Plus, that mindset brings the fighter back to just being good at one thing.

[Gray Mage]

Something that I think would keep the high customization of the core fighter, use something like DMVerdandi's idea and keep some use for mental stats, is, instead of making the warcries and challenges something that every fighter gets, is to make three (or more if we'd like to cover the other stats) "fighting styles" (one for each mental stat), sort of like the ranger, in that the player picks one and follows it, with some of the abilities we already have be the CHA set (maybe call it this specialty something like Commander).

Edit: I agree, making the Fighter having to be charismatic doesn't make much sense, but having him be tied to a mental stat does, in my mind. I've always seen the big, dumb brute that doesn't need mental stats as fitting more the barbarian (and even then, some wis support could fit, IMO).

[Stouts]

Keep in mind that this is a fighter variant. Plus, that mindset brings the fighter back to just being good at one thing.

Isn't the "fix" idea to make the character that should have been made, had the developers had as much play experience and content exposure as we have? I assumed that meant keeping the concept but backing it up with abilities that more effectively executed that concept.

Edit @ Gray Mage's Edit: I agree completely.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Isn't the "fix" idea to make the character that should have been made, had the developers had as much play experience and content exposure as we have? I assumed that meant keeping the concept but backing it up with abilities that more effectively executed that concept.
Alright then. Challenges and warcries have been removed.

[Gray Mage]

Isn't the "fix" idea to make the character that should have been made, had the developers had as much play experience and content exposure as we have? I assumed that meant keeping the concept but backing it up with abilities that more effectively executed that concept.


Well, it depends on the concept, I think. Fighters are supposed to be elite, or at least very competent, but it's very broad. If your concept is a sargent, or militar commander that fights in the battlefield, I can see how challenges and warcries would fit. I think the problem is that it shouldn't be set in stone, but something of an optional subset.

[ArcturusV]

Of course I know there was a fighter fix out there I commented on where it gave Fighters a choice of 3 subsets (Three different mental stats). Tactical (Cha), Adaptive (Wis), and something for Int... maybe I'm mixing it up and it was something like Leader for Cha and Tactical for Int. Eh. It's a thought for variant mixing. So have the Warcry, and a few other perks on a "Charisma" option, have the Guardian and similar abilities on the Tactical Fighter, and do something else for the Adaptive Fighter. Then give the fighter a choice like Ranger Combat Style.

[Stouts]

Alright then. Challenges and warcries have been removed.


Well, it depends on the concept, I think. Fighters are supposed to be elite, or at least very competent, but it's very broad. If your concept is a sargent, or militar commander that fights in the battlefield, I can see how challenges and warcries would fit. I think the problem is that it shouldn't be set in stone, but something of an optional subset.

I agree - as I said earlier, I think DMVerdandi is on the right track with variable stat-dependency. It really gives you the option to cast a fighter into nearly any martial role. The warcry fighter could very well be the CHA fighter; the whole thing just requires a step back to decide what should be the core of the class, and what the scale of abilities should be that fit into the stat-themed tracks.

[ngilop]

Alright then. Challenges and warcries have been removed.

and now i am going to my room and cry becuase somebody thought that not having a 1 in charisma means your fighger is useless and you should be banned form playing fighters and probably D&D in general.

really as far as i could tell all Warcries did was last an amount of rounds based on Cha, the penalties were for the most part small enough to be ignored but the plusses it not like you could have doen a save vs getting +4 AC becxuase I guess that accoridng to the 'all a fighter should ever do is be dumb and storng; peopel that yeah you need to focus on nothing but charisma in order to give your allies a +4 ac bonus for a crap ton of rounds.. even though honeslty 4+X ( wherein X is char modifier) is decent enough to last most if not all of a fight.. maybe if the penalties were higher or the warcirs did a whole lof of anit enemy stuffs I could see soembody puttinhg everyhting at an 3 and only going above that with charisma.

but I guess that me and Arcturus are a couple others are the only ones who feel that a fighter cna *gasp* have more stats than just str.

I hope to all higher powers that this line of thinkin does not destory teh Ranger that Yffie is going to work on liek it did to this fighter.

idk why people have to take an amazing idea and say ' no *^%^&&*&" and ruin it for anybody else.

[Psycho Yuffie]

So here's what I come up with so far with having feats like spells. I took the feats in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and used a method to separate them out into feat levels.

The idea is that fighters 1st-3rd level will get access to 1st-level feats. At 4th-level, they gain access to 2nd-level feats. The level of feats a fighter can take increase every even level after 4th-level. A fighter may take any feat off this list, even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites.

1st-Level Feats
Agile Manuevers
Blind-Fight
Catch Off-Guard
Channel Smite
Combat Experise
Combat Reflexes
Defensive Combat Training
Dodge
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Improved Initiative
Intimiidating Prowess
Mounted Combat
Point-Blank Shot
Power Attack
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Shield Focus
Step Up
Throw Anything
Tower Shield Proficiency
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus

2nd-Level Feats
Arcane Armor Training
Cleave
Dazzling Display
Deadly Aim
Disruptive
Double Slice
Far Shot
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Overrun
Improced Shield Bash
Improved Sunder
Improved Trip
Lunge
Mobility
Mounted Archery
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Ride-By Attack
Stand Still
Trample
Two-Weapon Defense
Vital Strike
Weapon Specialization

3rd-Level Feats
Great Cleave
Greater Bull Rush
Greater Disarm
Greater Feint
Greater Overrun
Greater Sunder
Greater Trip
Improved Critical
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Manyshot
Shatter Defenses
Shield Slam
Shot on the Run
Spirited Charge
Wild Stance

4th-Level Feats
Arcane Armor Mastery
Critical Focus
Greater Shield Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Improved Weapon Prowess
Improvised Weapon Mastery
Melee Weapon Mastery
Unseat

5th-Level Feats
Improved Precise Shot
Improved Vital Strike
Lightning Stance
Sickening Critical
Spellbreaker
Spring Attack
Strike Back

6th-Level Feats
Bleeding Critical
Deafening Critical
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Weapon Specialization
Penetrating Strike
Shield Master
Staggering Critical
Tiring Critical
Two-Weapon Rend
Whirlwind Attack

7th-Level Feats
Blinding Critical
Critical Mastery
Deadly Stroke
Greater Weapon Prowess

8th-Level Feats
Exhausting Critical
Greater Penetrating Strike
Greater Vital Strike
Pinpoint Targetting

9th-Level Feats
Stunning Critical
Weapon Supremacy

[Palanan]

--Wait, what? Warcries are gone?!

But...but...I liked warcries.



*sobs in corner with ngilop*

[Psycho Yuffie]

--Wait, what? Warcries are gone?!

But...but...I liked warcries.



*sobs in corner with ngilop*
I will be bringing them back as part of an ability tree. I'm going to be using the Int, Wis, Cha tree idea. I just haven't had time to write it yet.

Here are the warcries if anyone wants to write out the tree for me:

Warcry (Ex): At 2nd level, as a free action, a brutal defender may cry out to give herself and allies within 30 feet a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls. The effects of the warcry lasts for 4 + the brutal defender's Charisma modifier rounds. At 2nd level, she may warcry 1/day. This increases by 1 at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

Battle Warcry (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry, all enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Dreadful Warcry (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are shaken. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Defender Warcry (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the brutal defender receive a +4 morale bonus to AC. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Blood Warcry (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the brutal defender receive a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a brutal defender uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the brutal defender must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the brutal defender's level + the brutal defender's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are panicked. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Each tree will have abilities at the same levels of the warcries. At 2nd level, a brutal defender chooses one of the three disciplines to focus on.

[Gray Mage]

Treating feats like spells without a complete overhaul is a bad idea. It doesn't fix anything, in fact, it's worse. A fighter that wants to be an archer now needs to wait until level 4 for either far shot, precise shot or rapid shot, when before then could have one of them at level 1 (two of them if human).

I think it's best to try again at making some worthwhile abilities.

Edit:
I will be bringing them back as part of an ability tree. I'm going to be using the Int, Wis, Cha tree idea. I just haven't had time to write it yet.

I'm glad to read this.:smallsmile:

[Psycho Yuffie]

Treating feats like spells without a complete overhaul is a bad idea. It doesn't fix anything, in fact, it's worse. A fighter that wants to be an archer now needs to wait until level 4 for either far shot, precise shot or rapid shot, when before then could have one of them at level 1 (two of them if human).

I think it's best to try again at making some worthwhile abilities.
What would you suggest? Going back to the old feats or trying to overhaul the combat feats to give some advantage to the fighter?

[Gray Mage]

What would you suggest? Going back to the old feats or trying to overhaul the combat feats to give some advantage to the fighter?

I think using the cries and the int, wis and cha trees is the way to go.

[Psycho Yuffie]

I think using the cries and the int, wis and cha trees is the way to go.
Well, at the moment, I would like someone to help with the other two disciplines.

[Frozen_Feet]

This may have just inspired me. I might have to do something with this if we ever try to fix the fighter again.

Well I've always found the phrase "your [FOO] makes baby Jesus cry" to be highly inspiring as well. :smalltongue::smallwink:

[Psycho Yuffie]

Here's what I have of the Fighter Disciplines so far:

Strategist (Intelligence)
Improved Battle Maneuvers (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, a fighter's CMB and CMD increases by 4. This bonus increases by 2 every six levels after 2nd level.

Improved Combat Reflexes (Ex): At 5th level, a fighter gains double his Dexterity bonus as attacks of opportunity per round. At 10th level, this increases to unlimited attacks of opportunity per round.

Guardian (Ex): At 9th level, if an adjacent ally is about to be struck by an attack (ranged, touch, ranged touch, or melee), a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to push that ally 5 feet per Intelligence bonus point in any direction. For instance, if a fighter has an Intelligence bonus of +2, an ally can be moved 10 feet. The fighter moves into the ally's former space and the attack is considered to be rolled against her instead.

Shieldmate (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter may use an attack of opportunity to shield an ally from a ranged effect, if the fighter is within 5 feet of line of effect from the attacker and the fighter's ally. She must be aware of the enemy to be able to use this ability. When this ability is used, the ranged attack is considered to strike the fighter (or her square), with a bonus to your AC or saving throw equal to half her fighter level rounded down, plus your Intelligence bonus.

Command (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, a fighter may move up to her Intelligence bonus of allies, within 30 feet, by five feet as an immediate action. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Leader (Charisma)
Battle Warcry (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry, all allies within 30 feet gain +2 on their attack rolls. In addition, all enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they receive a -2 penalty on their attack rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry. The effeccts of the warcry lasts for 4 + the fighter's Charisma bonus.

Dreadful Warcry (Ex): At 5th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are shaken. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Defender Warcry (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the fighter receive a +4 morale bonus to AC. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Blood Warcry (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, allies within 30 feet of the fighter receive a +4 morale bonus to damage rolls. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

Banshee Warcry (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a fighter uses her warcry ability, enemies within 30 feet of the fighter must succeed on a Will save of 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the enemies fail, they are panicked. The effects of this ability lasts as long as the warcry.

[ArcturusV]

I'd keep the shove as a 5 foot only on Guardian. The reasoning here is Intelligence to Movement doesn't quite make sense. I mean the image of the ability is a shove to an ally, or pulling them, etc. Being smarter shouldn't let me throw someone 15 feet instead of 5. So instead, the move on the ally is only 5 feet regardless, but you get an AC bonus equal to your Int bonus.

Command seems a bit weak from when you get it. Maybe also give it an ability that says something like "Allies that move with your Command ability gain a bonus to AC and Saving Throws equal to twice your Intelligence Bonus until your next turn."

Just some spitballing out there.

I think I'm missing something on the Warcries. They reference durations but it doesn't list one? Is it designed to work as long as you keep using it basically? If I want I can be screaming at the top of my lungs for unlimited rounds and keep that ability going? Also as written all the Warcries stack. This isn't a bad thing. Just not sure if it was intended. At level 18 I'm inflicting -2 to attack, shaken, and panicked on my enemies and +4 on AC and damage rolls all at the same time. Neat. Not sure where that really fits on the power scale but I think pretty high.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Thanks for the feedback, as wells. :) Also, here's the templar.

Templar (Wis)
Mage Slayer (Ex): Beginning 2nd level, the fighter gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls when their opponent is a spellcaster. Anyone or any creature who can cast spells is considered a spellcaster.

At 10th level, the fighter is treated as threatening squares 10 feet from her when a spellcaster begins to cast a spell. The fighter takes a five-foot step as an immediate action and takes an attack of opportunity. In addition, the fighter adds her Wisdom bonus to the attack roll. This bonus stacks with Insightful Strike.

At 15th level, the fighter is treated as threatening squares 15 feet from her when a spellcaster begins to cast a spell. The fighter charges to the spellcaster as an immediate action and takes an attack of opportunity. In addition, the fighter adds her Wisdom bonus to her attack and damage rolls. This bonus stacks with Insightful Strike.

Guard Against Magic (Ex): At 6th level, a fighter can brace herself even against magical and unusual attacks with resilience. Even if the spell calls for a Reflex saving throw, she may use her Fortitude saving throw instead. In addition, she adds her Wisdom bonus to the saving throw.

Insightful Strike (Ex): At 9th level, a fighter may add her Wisdom bonus to her damage rolls made with a weapon she is proficient with. In addition, if a spellcaster is hit with insightful strike, she is stunned for 1 round.

Improved Insightful Strike (Ex): At 15th level, a fighter may double her Wisdom bonus applied to a weapon she is proficient with. In addition, spellcasters who are hit with insightful strike are staggered for the fighter's Wisdom bonus rounds.

Greater Insightful Strike (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, whenever a creature is hit with an insightful strike, she must succeed on a Reflex save (10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Wisdom bonus) or be knocked prone. In addition, a spellcaster must roll a Fortitude save for the same DC or also be knocked unconscious.

[ArcturusV]

The Mage Slayer ability is already how Spellcasting works, I think... it's making me doubt now... but casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity anyway. Unless this is designed to get around some feat or class feature I can't remember off the top of my head at this hour.

I'd swap it out for this instead:

Improvised Interrupter (Ex): As long as you have a free hand you may make an improvised ranged attack with any unattended object within 5 feet of you, or any item you hold on you when mages are casting a spell within 15 feet of you. This does not use up any Attacks of Opportunity. This attack deals 1 nonlethal damage (Regardless of size of object, cannot throw an object which is size Small or larger) against the mage's touch AC. If it hits the mage must made a Concentration Check against 10 + Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 your Fighter Level or lose the spell. If a spell takes longer than 1 standard action you get an additional attack against them for each round/full round action it takes.

Which might admittedly be TOO good for level 2. But I like the feeling of it. And it's something you usually see characters in DnD novels do. The Fighters fighting a mage will just chuck random **** at them to ruin their concentration.

[Psycho Yuffie]

The Mage Slayer ability is already how Spellcasting works, I think... it's making me doubt now... but casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity anyway. Unless this is designed to get around some feat or class feature I can't remember off the top of my head at this hour.

I'd swap it out for this instead:

Improvised Interrupter (Ex): As long as you have a free hand you may make an improvised ranged attack with any unattended object within 5 feet of you, or any item you hold on you when mages are casting a spell within 15 feet of you. This does not use up any Attacks of Opportunity. This attack deals 1 nonlethal damage (Regardless of size of object, cannot throw an object which is size Small or larger) against the mage's touch AC. If it hits the mage must made a Concentration Check against 10 + Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 your Fighter Level or lose the spell. If a spell takes longer than 1 standard action you get an additional attack against them for each round/full round action it takes.

Which might admittedly be TOO good for level 2. But I like the feeling of it. And it's something you usually see characters in DnD novels do. The Fighters fighting a mage will just chuck random **** at them to ruin their concentration.
I'm an idiot. >< I fixed it.

[ArcturusV]

Ah, better.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Ah, better.
Also, make sure you check the initial post first before posting. The abilities in the replies may be older versions.

[Person_Man]

Lots of good edits. I hope you keep it up.

You've accumulated so many ideas at this point, I would suggest just lumping them most or all together into a long list of Talents (with minimum Fighter level being the requirement for the better ones).

Thus, your progression could be something like:

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Bonus feat, Fighter Talent
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Fighter Talent
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Fighter Talent
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Fighter Talent
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Fighter Talent
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Fighter Talent
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Fighter Talent
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Fighter Talent
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Fighter Talent
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Fighter Talent
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Your Most Awesome Capstone[/table]

You could easily convert the various Trainings into Talents as well. You've already got language stating that the bonuses scale with your Fighter level. You don't have to list it out on the class abilities chart separately each time if they're optional abilities.

You could even keep the Strategist/Templar/Leader/Generic division among the different Talents, and just trust players to choose among them however they like.

This way you can keep the laundry list of different ideas that different Playgrounders have proposed, and allow the Fighter to potentially fill a wider variety of different roles, without removing ideas that some people might like. And you maintain the flexibility and generic nature of the Fighter as a class.



As a side note, I am personally still confused over this ability:


When a fighter learns a new feat that has the word "improved" or "greater," she may choose to remove the previous feat in the feat chain from her list (if it was part of a feat chain). The fighter still plays as if she has the previous feat, but it is freed to be spent on a new feat.

So, when I take Improved Trip, I get to keep Combat Expertise for free? When I take Improved Bull Rush, I keep Power Attack for free? That's pretty confusing. How does it interact with prestige class requirements?

Again, I would just drop it. The class already gets a ton of features.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, it was, in retrospect, a bad idea on my part. The idea behind that confusing bit is, if a Fighter finds whatever they were planning to do doesn't actually work in campaign (Disarming but there's never anything to disarm, Tripping but all the enemies are untrippable, etc), they could switch out a "dead" feat for a new one. However if what they had WAS working, they could effectively get an "Improved" version of a feat they already had for free.

That was the spirit of it. But probably a bad idea as I said.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, it was, in retrospect, a bad idea on my part. The idea behind that confusing bit is, if a Fighter finds whatever they were planning to do doesn't actually work in campaign (Disarming but there's never anything to disarm, Tripping but all the enemies are untrippable, etc), they could switch out a "dead" feat for a new one. However if what they had WAS working, they could effectively get an "Improved" version of a feat they already had for free.

That was the spirit of it. But probably a bad idea as I said.

So to address the spirit of your good idea, you can have Fighter Talents or class abilities which make certain Fighter Feats more useful, which Psycho has already started to incorporate into her homebrew. Universal Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc. Reduced to-hit penalty for Feats (which improves Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, etc). Improved bonuses for specific cruddy pre-req Feats (Dodge, Mobility, etc). And so on.

Its a good idea. You just need to work out the crunch so that it makes sense.

[Gray Mage]

I think Shieldmate and Command should be gained at an earlier level. Also, Strategists could gain the feat Knowledge Devotion or a variation of it (or a bit of both, expand what Know. Devotion can do), to add a more direct influence to the int mod in battle.

Guard Against Magic would be best served in being used for Will saves, IMO.

I'd rather change the name from Fighter Talent, though, but that's a minor point.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Sorry, Person_Man, but your Fighter Talent system--while interesting--doesn't make any sense. At all. Not with the current class abilities, anyway. It would only give the players a facade of customization, but they're really going to choose the abilities with the same mental bonus anyway. The Talents would only make the class more convoluted. I prefer an ability tree that's straight-forward over an illusion of choice.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Person_Man
*last line of table*

I was swigging a drink when I read your 20th level description there. So funny it was almost catastrophic. :smalltongue:

I'm glad warcries are back, and I like the alternating feat/talent approach. Clean, simple, effective. I think it's worth considering.

[Psycho Yuffie]

I was swigging a drink when I read your 20th level description there. So funny it was almost catastrophic. :smalltongue:

I'm glad warcries are back, and I like the alternating feat/talent approach. Clean, simple, effective. I think it's worth considering.
Talents will just be a second kind of feat. Nothing more, nothing less. It adds nothing, honestly, except that the idea tears apart our current concept and threatens to make us start almost completely over again. And, once again, Talents as Person_Man described them just add another step in character creation and only adds a layer of illusion that makes the player think they have more control than they really do.

The only way to solve this would be to create a wide range of Talents--not as much as feats, but still a great number--which someone else will have to do. I've already invested a lot of time and energy into what is currently here. Like I said, a feat is a feat. You can call it a Talent, but it's a feat in disguise.