[PF] Holy Elemental Whirlwind, Batman! (Rules Help)

[Keneth]

I'm playing Pathfinder again after a short break and this time I've gotten permission to play a druid (it was originally forbidden for me to play one for obvious reasons ever since the very first 3.0 campaign back in the year of 2001). Now, since I have every intention of breaking the game (quite possibly resulting in a savage book beating), I'm gonna start using the Air Elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-air)'s Whirlwind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Whirlwind-Su-) ability in a couple of levels.

To say that this ability is still inadequately written is an understatement, therefore I would very much like to hear your opinions on the matter. I'm gonna be discussing this ability with my DM in the near future and there are some questions, unanswered by RAW, that are bound to come up.

Here's just a few:

What intrinsic traits does the whirlwind grant to the user? Since the rules don't mention anything, it stands to reason that hitting and harming a creature in this form poses no more of a problem than doing so while it's not whirling. Which is fine for melee weapons from a balance standpoint, even if it sounds a bit silly. How about (non explosive) ranged weapons? Do arrows and bolts hit the whirlwind normally or does the speed of the wind render them harmless (assuming it's not touching the ground and you can see it)?
Even if arrows can hit and harm the whirlwind normally, how about hitting a creature that's trapped inside it? How about the reverse — can a trapped creature attack things outside the whirlwind with a ranged weapon?
Does using a melee weapon count as touching the whirlwind? How about natural melee weapons? The rules vaguely state "a creature that comes in contact with the whirlwind". What does that constitute? Is this just a confusing way of saying "a creature occupying the same space as the whirlwind"?
Does the whirlwind put out a non-magical fire when crossing it?
Can a whirling creature that makes a debris cloud by touching the ground see through it? How high is the debris cloud?
What happens when the whirlwind meets a swarm? Logically, the swarm would take 150% damage on a failed Reflex save. But what happens if the swarm is absorbed into the whirlwind? Can it still act as a swarm? Does it deal swarm damage to the whirling creature? Can you disperse the swarm by ejecting parts of it?
What exactly is the volume of a cone? ⅓πr²h? But it's a cone frustum, so I guess it would be ⅓πh(R² + Rr + r²). And that's assuming it widens evenly. Better bring my physics calculator.
What is the largest creature you can pick up with the whirlwind? Is it limited by the peak's width?


I'm sure there are more issues that are bound to arise depending on the situation, so if anyone can think of something else or has a take on any of these questions, feel free to share.

[Keneth]

No opinions on this matter? :smallfrown:

[Keneth]

I'm gonna give this one last bump. I've figured out the answers to most of the issues already and they should be logical and thorough enough to satisfy my GM, but I'd still like to hear other people's ideas.

I guess I'll edit my post with my amendments and adaptations to the rules later for posterity's sake as I'm sure I won't be the last one asking themselves these questions.

[RFLS]

Here's just a few:

What intrinsic traits does the whirlwind grant to the user? Since the rules don't mention anything, it stands to reason that hitting and harming a creature in this form poses no more of a problem than doing so while it's not whirling. Which is fine for melee weapons from a balance standpoint, even if it sounds a bit silly. How about (non explosive) ranged weapons? Do arrows and bolts hit the whirlwind normally or does the speed of the wind render them harmless (assuming it's not touching the ground and you can see it)?
Even if arrows can hit and harm the whirlwind normally, how about hitting a creature that's trapped inside it? How about the reverse — can a trapped creature attack things outside the whirlwind with a ranged weapon?
Does using a melee weapon count as touching the whirlwind? How about natural melee weapons? The rules vaguely state "a creature that comes in contact with the whirlwind". What does that constitute? Is this just a confusing way of saying "a creature occupying the same space as the whirlwind"?
Does the whirlwind put out a non-magical fire when crossing it?
Can a whirling creature that makes a debris cloud by touching the ground see through it? How high is the debris cloud?
What happens when the whirlwind meets a swarm? Logically, the swarm would take 150% damage on a failed Reflex save. But what happens if the swarm is absorbed into the whirlwind? Can it still act as a swarm? Does it deal swarm damage to the whirling creature? Can you disperse the swarm by ejecting parts of it?
What exactly is the volume of a cone? ⅓πr²h? But it's a cone frustum, so I guess it would be ⅓πh(R² + Rr + r²). And that's assuming it widens evenly. Better bring my physics calculator.
What is the largest creature you can pick up with the whirlwind? Is it limited by the peak's width?



None. Weapons have no additional problems hitting it.
See above.
Not unless the creature in question is within a square that the whirlwind occupies.
DM's discretion.
It's a sphere with a diameter half that of the whirlwind, centered on the creature. The creature suffers the same penalties listed for everyone.
Nothing that's not explicitly stated.
Yes...? You seem to have answered yourself.
RAW, no size limit that I can find.

[Keneth]

So basically you're saying that the rules don't make much sense and you're okay with that. :smallbiggrin:

Here's what I've come up with (note that almost none of these things are RAW):

A creature is only subject to the whirlwind effect if it shares a space with it.
In order pick up a creature, you must make a successful combat maneuver attack as a standard action. This change favors large heavy-hitters which makes more sense to me. If the creature is a swarm, it is instead dispersed for 1d4 rounds before reforming in the same spot.
Swarms take 150% of damage on a failed Reflex save.
Projectile weapons are ineffective against the whirlwind or any creature trapped within. Thrown weapons and firearms take a penalty to attack equal to the whirling creature's Strength bonus (if any). Siege and splash weapons are unaffected and work as intended.
Perception checks based on sound are impossible for creatures trapped inside the whirlwind. Likewise, they cannot be heard from outside the whirlwind.
All non-magical flames inside the whirlwind's space are automatically extinguished.
The debris cloud is a cylinder half its diameter in height and the creature causing it can't see through it any better than other creatures.

I've also compiled a table of volumes measured in 5-foot cubes.

{table=head]Height (ft.)|Volume (cu.)|Largest creature
10|2|Medium
15|3|Medium
20|7|Medium
25|13|Large
30|20|Large
35|31|Huge
40|44|Huge
45|61|Huge
50|81|Gargantuan
55|106|Gargantuan
60|135|Colossal
[/table]

And that's assuming you're using a square grid. On a hex grid where the creature's space is rounded (sphere or cylinder generally), you can cram even more creatures inside. There's still some issues regarding splash weapons, breath weapons, and other gaseous substances and how they affect creatures within the whirlwind, but those situations are probably better handled on a case by case basis.

Hopefully some of these suggestions will be useful to someone should they stumble upon this thread in the future.

[RFLS]

So basically you're saying that the rules don't make much sense and you're okay with that. :smallbiggrin:

No. I'm saying that the rules don't make sense. Now I'm saying that I don't like having words put in my mouth.


Here's what I've come up with (note that almost none of these things are RAW):

A creature is only subject to the whirlwind effect if it shares a space with it.
In order pick up a creature, you must make a successful combat maneuver attack as a standard action. This change favors large heavy-hitters which makes more sense to me. If the creature is a swarm, it is instead dispersed for 1d4 rounds before reforming in the same spot.
Swarms take 150% of damage on a failed Reflex save.
Projectile weapons are ineffective against the whirlwind or any creature trapped within. Thrown weapons and firearms take a penalty to attack equal to the whirling creature's Strength bonus (if any). Siege and splash weapons are unaffected and work as intended.
Perception checks based on sound are impossible for creatures trapped inside the whirlwind. Likewise, they cannot be heard from outside the whirlwind.
All non-magical flames inside the whirlwind's space are automatically extinguished.
The debris cloud is a cylinder half its diameter in height and the creature causing it can't see through it any better than other creatures.

I've also compiled a table of volumes measured in 5-foot cubes.

{table=head]Height (ft.)|Volume (cu.)|Largest creature
10|2|Medium
15|3|Medium
20|7|Medium
25|13|Large
30|20|Large
35|31|Huge
40|44|Huge
45|61|Huge
50|81|Gargantuan
55|106|Gargantuan
60|135|Colossal
[/table]

And that's assuming you're using a square grid. On a hex grid where the creature's space is rounded (sphere or cylinder generally), you can cram even more creatures inside. There's still some issues regarding splash weapons, breath weapons, and other gaseous substances and how they affect creatures within the whirlwind, but those situations are probably better handled on a case by case basis.

Hopefully some of these suggestions will be useful to someone should they stumble upon this thread in the future.

Seems reasonable. I tend to not bother too much with the rules here; they're more trouble than they're really worth.

[Keneth]

No. I'm saying that the rules don't make sense. Now I'm saying that I don't like having words put in my mouth.

Fair enough. :smallbiggrin:


Seems reasonable. I tend to not bother too much with the rules here; they're more trouble than they're really worth.

That's all fine and dandy until you have three very smart players playing optimized T1 classes and looking for any way to abuse the rules. Since I'm also the rules advocate in our group, I like preparing my GMs for all the ways I plan on breaking their games. Plus it provides valuable experience for any campaigns I happen to be GMing or game systems I'm building.

I like complicating. :smalltongue:

[gr8artist]

Your rules addendums seem reasonable to me.
But... why in the gods' good name(s) are you trying to "break the game"?

It usually makes it less fun.

[Keneth]

Partly as a response to how the game is being handled and partly in an effort to teach the GM about class and encounter balance, as well as to point out all the flaws in the system that are supported by the rules. I only ever take it far enough to prove my point, after which we either house rule the relevant parts in an effort to correct the issue or the GM learns how to adjust his encounters accordingly to compensate (depending on what's causing the imbalance).

The end result hopefully makes the game more fun, but for a system as full of holes and broken rules as Pathfinder (or 3.5), there's really no amount of surface patching that can fix the underlying issues. I don't know, maybe this is my way of showing everyone that we need to switch to a better system. :smallbiggrin: