Passing thoughts *Warning unmarked spoilers*

[Rougn]

Warning this may contained unmarked spoilers you have been warned:

Reading the comments on the site it made me start thinking about the other teams and their motivations for why they do what they do.

Team Order of the Stick:

Roy: He is stuck getting revenge on Xykon to end a family oath. However now he is wanting to save the world from Team Evil.

Elan: He wants to make Roy proud as well as getting his happy ending. He also wants to save the world from Team Evil.

Durkon: To protect his friends as well as fight Team Evil

Belkar: Unknown why he does what he does. It started with him trying to avoid being arrested again and undergone a transformation into become more Chaotic Good then Chaotic Evil.

Haley: Originally to earn money to save father now to help Elan and fight Team Evil.

As we can see from this that Team Order of the Stick is pretty much in agreement on their end goals.

Team Evil (Xykon Part):

Xykon: To rule the world and general giggle over the deaths.

MitD: He wants to help his 'friends' and brainwashed to kill Redcloak if he betrays.

Team Evil (Redcloak):

Redcloak: He wants to bring a fair life to his fellow goblins. He is currently being blackmailed and forced into slavery.

Goblins: Want to help Redcloak in achieving freedom for all. Forced into slavery by power.

Team Tarquin:

Tarquin: He wants to rule like a god until his death preferably by his son but anyone would do. (Already succeeded in his goal)

Malack: He wants to rule the united kingdom after his friends death to worship his god in a evil way.

Other Members: Unknown.
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Judging from this the only person who is truly working towards a good end for a good reason is on Team Evil.

Red Cloak.

He knows the truth about the creation of the Universe and the place that the goblins where stuck in.

Goblins:
They where created by the Gods as a easy way to level their clerics. They where born to be killed.

Alignment:
Evil: Personally I believe the reason they where given the general alignment Evil was because it makes it easier to kill them. If they where Good aligned Good aligned Cleric are unable to just randomly killed them without penalty. Evil aligned creatures can kill evil creatures without penalty as well so clearly Evil Aligned is the way to go for a slaughter race.

Life: As we have witnessed in Start of Darkness as well as Goblintopia(sp?) the goblins are actually a peaceful race. They are forced nomads trying to find a home where they are safe. Redcloak started off as a low cleric worshiping The Dark One. You actually see him with his sister and mother teasing him about a girl he loves then the 'good' party arrives killing them. Why? Because they are a Slaughter Race. His village was killed and he was forced to run wearing the Red Cloak which told the history of the universe.

The Dark One: First his name is propaganda. The name makes him sound evil dark murderous god. In fact his name is based on his skin color. He started off as a NPC Goblin with who wanted to give his race equal standing in the world. He organized them into a army and actually started Peace Talks. He was killed for being a goblin. He became a God and was lied to about the creation of the universe until he discovered the truth himself. Even among the Gods the goblins get the short end of the stick.

The Plan: Get ahold of the Snarl and use it as HIS weapon during the new peace talks. Last time he went in unarmed he was killed and nearly lost his chance of getting his people a life of peace and protection he worked for. Why go back in unarmed to have the same thing repeated? Red Cloak already stated the plan isnt to destroy the world but to give equal standing with the Goblins however if they world was destroyed that would still help his goal: Freeing the Goblins.

Us: Why do we consider this evil? We know the only reason Red Cloak is with Xykon was because he was the only Sorcerer he could get and now he is threatened with death of his entire race if he does not follow yet we see he is laying down his plans to turn the tables. So then why are we seeing this as wrong?

The Order of the Stick:

It all started because of 1 thing. A bitter old man making a Oath of revenge on a Sorcerer he knew nothing about. Yes Xykon was evil and needs to die. But the fact remains the whole mission of good was actually just that of revenge. They are acting without the full information which is normal and fine as PCs. But they are justifying their actions by saying they are killing evil goblins. Goblins that are evil because they are meant to be killed.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

Umm..."knew nothing about" other than that he knew that Xykon slew his mentor you mean, I assume?

In short, Eugene had plenty of good motivation to be after Xykon.

[Kish]

Did...did you just call Xykon a wizard?

[Winter]

Quick question: Why are you writing "Warning, unmarked spoilers" in the title and spoiler everything out? :smallbiggrin:

[Raineh Daze]

Quick question: Why are you writing "Warning, unmarked spoilers" in the title and spoiler everything out? :smallbiggrin:

Looks more like a space-saving measure than a spoiler-related one. :smalltongue:

[Rougn]

Did...did you just call Xykon a wizard?

lmao thank you for checking that I dont know what I was thinking. Corrected

@Gorm Besides his name and his class he knew nothing. Yes; he killed his mentor but to make it his entire family goal to fight him to the death and then not tell them until he was about to die? Doesnt seem fair.

[Rougn]

Quick question: Why are you writing "Warning, unmarked spoilers" in the title and spoiler everything out? :smallbiggrin:

The stuff in spoilers are not generally spoilers. I did that to save space for the post. Plus inside of the spoilers I randomly mention stuff from other books and those are not in additional spoilers.

[Rorrik]

This concept is interesting. I agree that our PCs have been misled often and continue to be misled. At this point, with the Azurites relocated, I would like to see Gobbotopia succeed as a trade partner and ally with surrounding good and neutral nations.

With Redcloak the best informed, and one of the strongest, players in the race for the gates, I wonder if he would be willing to negotiate with OotS if he got the chance. He has viciously killed armed foes, but he has also displayed unwillingness to kill even humans without thought or cause (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html). I think Redcloak may end up coming out on the side of good if he gets a chance to talk them down, or even helps them take down Xykon. He definitely has more vision than they do,

[Sir_Leorik]

Rougn, the problem with your conclusions is that other than conquering Azure City, everything that Redcloak has done since he and Right-Eye teamed up with Xykon in the swamp, have consistently undermined the well-being of Goblin-kind. Right-Eye pointed out to Redcloak multiple times that Xykon cared nothing for the lives of Goblins, both while he was alive (and killing Goblin soldiers out of negligence) to after Xykon became a Lich, when he killed Goblins for his personal amusement. Redcloak knows this. But he doesn't care, because the Plan is more important. Redcloak let Xykon enslave his younger brother's family and village without a word of protest, because Xykon had found Serini's diary and located Dorukon's Gate. Redcloak then murdered Right-Eye to keep him from killing Xykon, then animated Right-Eye's body because Xykon ordered him to.

Redcloak kind of protested about the deaths of the "Gate Inspector" Goblins, or about Xykon arranging the defense of the Dungeon to maximize Goblin casualties, but he mostly took his frustration out on the MitD. He sent wave after wave of Hobgoblins to be eaten by a monster. He sent wave after wave of Hobgoblins to die assaulting the walls of Azure City, before realizing how much of a jerk he was being.

Redcloak did try to improve conditions in Gobbotopia, but that didn't last. He's not there anymore, and frankly Jirix is in a better position to improve the lives of Goblinkind than Redcloak is.

[Rougn]

Rougn, the problem with your conclusions is that other than conquering Azure City, everything that Redcloak has done since he and Right-Eye teamed up with Xykon in the swamp, have consistently undermined the well-being of Goblin-kind. Right-Eye pointed out to Redcloak multiple times that Xykon cared nothing for the lives of Goblins, both while he was alive (and killing Goblin soldiers out of negligence) to after Xykon became a Lich, when he killed Goblins for his personal amusement. Redcloak knows this. But he doesn't care, because the Plan is more important. Redcloak let Xykon enslave his younger brother's family and village without a word of protest, because Xykon had found Serini's diary and located Dorukon's Gate. Redcloak then murdered Right-Eye to keep him from killing Xykon, then animated Right-Eye's body because Xykon ordered him to.

Redcloak kind of protested about the deaths of the "Gate Inspector" Goblins, or about Xykon arranging the defense of the Dungeon to maximize Goblin casualties, but he mostly took his frustration out on the MitD. He sent wave after wave of Hobgoblins to be eaten by a monster. He sent wave after wave of Hobgoblins to die assaulting the walls of Azure City, before realizing how much of a jerk he was being.

Redcloak did try to improve conditions in Gobbotopia, but that didn't last. He's not there anymore, and frankly Jirix is in a better position to improve the lives of Goblinkind than Redcloak is.

What choice did he have in the matter? What other Arcane caster would be willing to help him that was a high enough level?

The hobgoblins he did not fully accept as goblins because of a childish racism he had. He even admitted that it was plain and simple racism and that he was appalled that he did this to goblins and vowed to protect them.

Lets pretend he didnt kill Right-Eye what would have happened? Xykon would have killed the entire Goblin army. He knew that doing that one action is putting the entire Goblin's future into quite literally one single dice roll. He did the only action he felt he could do to get the future he always wanted for the Goblins.

Killing his brother made him seal the deal for him. There is no going back for him now. As he said before turning away now will just be insulting to those who died for the goal. Xykon knows this about Red Cloak and thus blackmails him into doing this work for him. So what happens if Red Cloak stands up to Xykon demanding better health benefits for the goblins? What power does Red Cloak have to back him up? He is bent over the barrel at the moment.

This is war there is causalities that is what Red Cloak understands this is not (I know it it but come on) a fairy tale where no one dies. He just has to make sure those who do die do so to save the others.

[The Giant]

Around these parts, this is what we call a "Morally Justified" thread, as in, "Redcloak is morally justified doing all these evil things because of how badly he was treated." And we generally lock them, because they rely on each poster's personal philosophy to move forward, and that starts fights.

So...thread locked.