PDA

View Full Version : Balancing PrC's for Wizards and Sorcerers



Jack_Simth
2006-11-12, 09:37 PM
Give:
A bonus feats every 5th level of a PrC (so 5th and 10th for a 10 level PrC, or just 5th for a 5); the Wizard loses the entry feats (but doesn't sacrifice bonus feat progression), while the Sorcerer eventually gets back much of the entry feat requirements, putting them about even, power-change wise.

Take:
Pre-Epic, whenever a full caster level progression PrC grants +1 Spellcasting level, it forever burns one spell slot from the currently highest available normal (not domain, stat bonus, or specialty slots) spell slot after applying the +1 caster level - so the Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1 has 2 base 3rd level spell slots, one of which is gone forever (net 1 before bonuses); while the Sorcerer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1 has 3 base 3rd level spell slots, one of which is gone forever (net 2 before bonuses). The Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 3 effectively has 0 4th level spell slots (that's 0, not -; bonus spell slots from high intelligence or specilization still apply) while the Sorcerer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 3 has 2 4th level spell slots (only one lost due to just now gaining a spell slot); a Sorcerer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Other full spellcasting PrC 5 (20th level) would have spells per day looking like....
6/6/6/4/4/4/4/4/4/3 (lost 2 3rd (6th and 7th character level), 2 4th (8th and 9th), 2 5th (10th and 11th), 2 6th (12th and 13th), 2 7th (14th and 15th), 2 8th (16th and 17th), and 3 9th (18th, 19th and 20th) level spell slots),
While the Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Other full spellcasting PrC 5 would look like....
4/4/4/3/2/2/2/2/2/0 (lost 1 3rd (6th character level), 2 4th (7th and 8th ), 2 5th (at 9th and 10th), 2 6th (at 11th and 12th), 2 7th (at 13th and 14th), 2 8th (at 15th and 16th), and 4 9th (at 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th) level spell slots)
Class abilities that cost spell slots (like the Archmage's) still do so.
This would also apply to Divine PrC's, of course.

Would that take care of the issue about Wizards having an easier time with PrC's than Sorcerers? Does it hit Wizards too hard?

Golthur
2006-11-12, 10:21 PM
I see where you're going with this, and I like the idea, overall. Essentially, Wizards have lots of feats and few spell slots, whereas Sorcerers have few feats and lots of spell slots, so making a sacrifice of spell slots and a grant of feats tweaks it from Wizard-balanced to Sorcerer-balanced (or, ideally, halfway between for both).

It seems from first impressions to hurt Wizards a lot on the slot front - getting taken down to two spell slots on most of your higher level spells is a real sacrifice.

On the feat front, the bonus feats in the PrC only works if the entry requirements are fewer than one mage-type feat for 5-level PrCs, and two mage-type feats for 10-level PrCs. Otherwise, it won't solve the feat problem for Sorcerers.

Aust_Arrowsplitter
2006-11-13, 10:38 AM
While I disagree on principle with what you're trying to do, I would like to offer some thought...

if you're going to lose a spell slot in your highest category every time you gain a +1 to caster level, then that defeats a large part of the purpose of the +1 to caster level. Oh, sure, your lightning bolt is more powerful now, but you can still only cast it once or twice a day. With this method, you end up with only 3 or 4 spells/day above 3rd level in most primary caster PrCs.

Honestly, I fail to see the point. It's not like the feats taken for PrC entrance are wasted. Seriously "OMG, I have to take Eschew Materials (absolutely no prereqs) to take Master Transmogrifist!"
-_-... I take that feat anyway, because I find it useful, mostly due to the fact that whenever I learn a new spell in a dungeon, my DM is anal about 'where do you get components?' until we get back to town. So I take that and forget about it.

When you look at it, the feat component of a PrC isn't all that bad, and honestly I think that this whole 'burn a slot' thing is worse than whatever bonus the two bonus feats might grant. Seriously, you're talking about trading in up to ten spell slots, when the 'Extra Slot' feat grants one, for TWO measly friggen bonus feats.

Yeah, no thanks.

Jack_Simth
2006-11-13, 05:41 PM
While I disagree on principle with what you're trying to do, I would like to offer some thought...

if you're going to lose a spell slot in your highest category every time you gain a +1 to caster level, then that defeats a large part of the purpose of the +1 to caster level. Oh, sure, your lightning bolt is more powerful now, but you can still only cast it once or twice a day. With this method, you end up with only 3 or 4 spells/day above 3rd level in most primary caster PrCs.

Honestly, I fail to see the point. It's not like the feats taken for PrC entrance are wasted. Seriously "OMG, I have to take Eschew Materials (absolutely no prereqs) to take Master Transmogrifist!"
-_-... I take that feat anyway, because I find it useful, mostly due to the fact that whenever I learn a new spell in a dungeon, my DM is anal about 'where do you get components?' until we get back to town. So I take that and forget about it.

And that's the problem. Nobody wants to lose spell progression (except gish builds and other "two function" builds - but this only applies to full progression PrC's, wich most such aren't, so....), and a lot of the feats that are required for the PrC are valuable in their own right. So you've got a lot of PrC's where the "requirements" are little more than flavoring (as in, a reasonable player might just take them anyway), that costs nothing on the primary ability of the class it's based on, and grants some highly useful special abilities that make the character more powerful than a single-classed spellcaster. When a well-built Wizard 5/PrC X 10 is strictly equal or better in everything except familiar advancement to a well-built Wizard-15, how is PrC X a balanced prestige class?



When you look at it, the feat component of a PrC isn't all that bad, and honestly I think that this whole 'burn a slot' thing is worse than whatever bonus the two bonus feats might grant. Seriously, you're talking about trading in up to ten spell slots, when the 'Extra Slot' feat grants one, for TWO measly friggen bonus feats.

Yeah, no thanks.
Okay, I'm quite possibly overcorrecting considerably; hence the poll. But do you see my reasoning?

I_Got_This_Name
2006-11-13, 08:23 PM
You can take almost anything away from primary casters and they'll still overshadow non-casters.

Yes, the wizard gains access to high spell levels two levels later under this system, if they PrC, and don't have bonus spells. They're still more powerful, you'll just want to pop back into Wizard to get your spell slots every so often. I suggested something similar earlier, with a few stipulations: PrCs with non-full casting didn't always cost slots (a half-caster PrC is punished enough, for example), although you could charge slots on the levels they gain casting, and give them back on the next, I suppose; mine didn't include bonus feats; and some other classes were exempted (the Archmage already charges spell slots for its abilities, for example. Then again, they're pretty powerful. I could see charging more for them)

Jack_Simth
2006-11-13, 08:45 PM
You can take almost anything away from primary casters and they'll still overshadow non-casters.

Yes, the wizard gains access to high spell levels two levels later under this system, if they PrC, and don't have bonus spells. They're still more powerful, you'll just want to pop back into Wizard to get your spell slots every so often. I suggested something similar earlier, with a few stipulations: PrCs with non-full casting didn't always cost slots (a half-caster PrC is punished enough, for example), although you could charge slots on the levels they gain casting, and give them back on the next, I suppose; mine didn't include bonus feats; and some other classes were exempted (the Archmage already charges spell slots for its abilities, for example. Then again, they're pretty powerful. I could see charging more for them)

I'm not trying to balance a Fighter-20 with a Wizard-20. I'm not trying to balance a Fighter-20 with a Wizard-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5. I'm trying to balance a Wizard-10 with a Wizard-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-5. Or maybe a Wizard-5/PrC X with a Sorcerer-5 PrC X, or a Sorcerer X+5, even. At any given point, I'd prefer the Wizard's player need to seriously think about whether to take a level of PrC X, or another level of Wizard. If they'll always pick a level of Wizard, I probably didn't do it right (unless I'm playing with a purist of some form - in which case, it won't much matter what I do in that regard). If they'll always pick a level of PrC X, I didn't do it right (unless I'm playing with a purist of some form - in which case, it won't much matter what I do in that regard). If they'll alternate (like you suggest), I probably did it about right.