How come the Order have never had a proper fight at full power? [Archive]

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Sunken Valley

2013-03-04, 04:49 PM

In a look at all the Order's major skirmishes and combats I have noticed something. Every single time, the Order has not had all 6 members participate to their fullest. Every time (with one and a bit exceptions), a member of the Order has been incapacitated, absent, or impeded in some way from reaching full potential.

Observe:

Dungeon Crawling Fools
I'm not counting really early strips as OOTS never squared off against a named person (except for the Chimera). In their Linear Guild showdown, Durkon is drained. So only 5 are present. In the fight with Xykon, Haley is absent for most of it and when she does show, V is paralysed by this point. Also Roy loses his sword.

No Cure for Paladin Blues
For the entirety of this arc, Roy has no sword. He's using a non-masterwork greatclub without his feats, making him the equivalent of a mere warrior. Further, in the big fights (Dragon, Miko, Trial (yes I count the trial)) more party members are incapacitated or absent (V is a lizard, Elan has his wrist in a sling, Belkar broke out of prison and Haley's bluffing would have appeared useful in the trial).

War and XPs
Not counting Hydra and Owlbear as even Elan could solo them (maybe he'd need one member to help with the hydra). In Linear Guild showdown Cliffport, Belkar is cursed to not fight in cities and Haley can't talk. The latter may be grasping at straws but the former is not. Roy is absent from the later hotel room fight. In the big battle, Belkar again can't kill in cities, although for one brief period between him leaving city limits and Roy's death the party is at full power. For 8 strips. Not long. Also, if I'm gonna be picky, Belkar is still cursed.

Don't Split the Party
The party is split. Duh.

The Book of Blood
The OOTS have one battle at full strength (I am not counting V's soul selling as an inpendiment). Against a group of bandits. Which contains one of 3 strips in the entire comic in which Elan kills something. Weak. Not counting the worm as its an animal. The party is separated until the 810s (even in the guild fight, Haley is incapacitated in a surprise round).Then when Tarquin runs the guild, V conveniently vanishes under stress, leaving an absence.

Now with Durkon dead, the Order will have to wait even longer to get to full strength. And even when Durkon goes vampire, I'm still counting it as an impendiment.

I pray for the day when the order as we know them finally fights with all members present and no restrictions.

I would like to point out that I am not criticising the Giant and understand the rules of tensions are important. Just wondering if anyone else sees this pattern.

Procyonpi

2013-03-04, 04:52 PM

Sunken Valley

2013-03-04, 04:53 PM

Hate to break it too you, but Sabine's ability to drain AND disguise herself were part of the encounter. They started at what was, at the time, "full power."

I could probably disect some of your other cases, too.

Nope, not counting it if it was in a surprise round.

Also, the combat started when the guild went back to the ice wall.

Procyonpi

2013-03-04, 04:56 PM

Nope, not counting it if it was in a surprise round.

Also, the combat started when the guild went back to the ice wall.

The point is, Succubuses have lots of racial abilities that makes the chance of them getting a surprise round very likely, and that's built into their challenge rating.

goodyarn

2013-03-04, 04:58 PM

Maybe the Giant is saving a display of the team kicking butt at full power for the climax of the entire story. Maybe he thinks if we saw them at full power before the climax, then the climax would be a let down.

Raineh Daze

2013-03-04, 05:02 PM

Seems to me that the most common outcome is that either V is incapacitated in some way or fighting someone that's shut down most of her available options. Or things end quickly.

They probably don't fight at full power all the time because it would make their losing but winning later fights seem more contrived. :smallwink:

sparky9042

2013-03-04, 05:03 PM

I beg to differ. We've seen them at full power in OOPCs, when they took on a group of kobolds in their first encounter as a team.

Vaarsuvius, Belkar, Elan, and Haley all readied actions which caused the latter three to get injured.

The Giant

2013-03-04, 05:04 PM

Yeah! And you know what? How come the Fellowship of the Ring never fights together after the first book, either? They get split up, and Boromir never gets rezzed, and then Aragorn has to do the whole Helm's Deep fight without the party rogues.

Also, you know who else? Star Wars. I mean, every fight, one of them is deactivating a tractor beam, or training on Dagobah, or blinded by carbonite sickness, or piloting the Millenium Falcon with Nien Numb. They're never all together in one room fighting at full strength. What the heck???

Morty

2013-03-04, 05:06 PM

Dang, I had a witty retort all planned and then I see that the Giant has already commented. Oh well. Here goes: don't look at OotS like you would at a D&D campaign. In a D&D campaign, a series of fights where the party is at its full power is normal. In a story, it gets boring pretty dang quickly.

Sunken Valley

2013-03-04, 05:07 PM

The Giant

2013-03-04, 05:09 PM

You don't have to edit your post. You didn't do anything wrong by asking, even if I responded snarkily.

Sunken Valley

2013-03-04, 05:13 PM

You don't have to edit your post. You didn't do anything wrong by asking, even if I responded snarkily.

Too late! Although looking at your post, Star Wars don't technically count as that involves space ships and sci-fi. Also, all main members were present and active at full strength in at least one fight in each of the 3 films.

Also, in LOTR, the Fellowship got one or two good fights in Book 1. Unlike your people, who haven't really. Then again one of your people could murder the fellowship alone.

Shred-Bot

2013-03-04, 05:15 PM

Oh man, Haley would have done so much sneak attacking if she fought at Helm's deep. Aragorn and Gimli would have given her so many flanks.

Rui

2013-03-04, 05:17 PM

What do you think Legolas did this whole time? He multiclassed with ranger/rouge and took down 42 with sneak attack and favored enemy combo!

Quild

2013-03-04, 05:26 PM

You don't have to edit your post. You didn't do anything wrong by asking, even if I responded snarkily.

While looking for the definition of "snarky"... :
"He was being very snarky with me. Yeah, snarky. Its a word, google it." -Dane Cook
:smallbiggrin:

I thought that having the order never able to be at full strength for a fight was a kind of running joke. Especially since Roy wanted for once to be fully prepared to fight for Girard's gate :x.

The Giant

2013-03-04, 05:34 PM

Too late! Although looking at your post, Star Wars don't technically count as that involves space ships and sci-fi.

Genre doesn't enter into it. Fantasy does not have any special narrative convention demanding that all characters be in one place that other genres can ignore. (Also, Star Wars IS fantasy, just fantasy in space.)

Also, all main members were present and active at full strength in at least one fight in each of the 3 films.

I honestly cannot even see how you get that. The only time they're even on the same planet in the second movie is on Hoth, and Luke is out in his snowspeeder while the rest are back at base. Sort of like how Roy is in the arena while the rest are fighting backstage. And in the first and third, it only happens if you discount Obi-Wan and Lando (respectively) as main characters, which I don't. At no point, does Obi-Wan stand side by side with Han Solo, fighting. And the reason is because what is a challenge for Han would be a cakewalk for Ben, which leads us to...

Then again one of your people could murder the fellowship alone.

Think about that, and then ask your original question again.

Shred-Bot

2013-03-04, 05:35 PM

What do you think Legolas did this whole time? He multiclassed with ranger/rouge and took down 42 with sneak attack and favored enemy combo!

And just think how many more he would have taken down had he yelled "Sneak attack, bitch!" with each arrow fired.

Sir_Leorik

2013-03-04, 05:43 PM

I honestly cannot even see how you get that. The only time they're even on the same planet in the second movie is on Hoth, and Luke is out in his snowspeeder while the rest are back at base. Sort of like how Roy is in the arena while the rest are fighting backstage. And in the first and third, it only happens if you discount Obi-Wan and Lando (respectively) as main characters, which I don't. At no point, does Obi-Wan stand side by side with Han Solo, fighting. And the reason is because what is a challenge for Han would be a cakewalk for Ben, which leads us to...

The irony is that the heroes in the Prequels fight side by side at full power more frequently than the Heroes of Yavin (plus Lando) ever did. Especially the Battle of Geonosis, where Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi, Anakin "Darth" Skywalker, Senator Padme "Natalie" Amidala, Artoo "Badass" Detoo, See "Oh dear" Threepio, Jedi Master "Size Matters Not" Yoda, and Mace "Expletive Deleted" Windu, fight Geonosians, Battle Droids, Jango Fett and Count "Why was My Death Scene Cut from the Return of the King" Dooku in the only really good scen of Attack of the Clones. And even there, they split up the party in the end!

PS: Before anyone mentions that Jar-Jar was absent from the Battle of Geonosis, Jar-Jar is not a Hero of the prequels, or anything else. Adventuring with Jar-Jar is like adventuring with syphilis, to paraphrase Roy.

Rui

2013-03-04, 05:48 PM

And just think how many more he would have taken down had he yelled "Sneak attack, bitch!" with each arrow fired.

Totally :smallsmile:

LasVegasLawyer

2013-03-04, 05:58 PM

EmperorSarda

2013-03-04, 06:20 PM

In gaming, is it more fun for a bunch of characters to trounce a bunch of kobolds, or is it more fun to face against a challenge, with some difficulty?

Is a story where there is some difficulty good reading compared to a gary/mary-stu getting everything their way? Or for the bad guys to have a good plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) and make the good guys' job harder?

Being at total power and doing everything perfectly is boring. Overconfidence, second guessing, not using all resources adequately happens in real life. Only makes sense for it to happen in the comic as well.

King of Nowhere

2013-03-04, 06:21 PM

Several times I recognize V being split from the party because his spells would not allow the plot to go in the direction it is supposed. durkon too, sometimes.
But yes, we never saw the order complete in any important fight.
Well, azure city can be considered such. belkar not being cursed would not have changed much, and if roy died, that happened in mid battle.

Snails

2013-03-04, 06:38 PM

Important learning and growth only happens when a character is forced out of their comfort zone. Thus staying within a balanced full strength team is a huge impediment.

JosephOrJoe

2013-03-04, 07:44 PM

I'm not counting really early strips as OOTS never squared off against a named person (except for the Chimera).

The Chimera (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html) is a good one to look at to answer your question.

If you have a rested wizard who knows what he/she needs to do, the rest of the party just needs to stay out of the way and protect the caster.

Or imagine the fight with Tarquin if V casts Heroism on Roy and Belkar and then Haste on the party. Probably a very different fight, and that's without V even casting maximized chain lightning.

137beth

2013-03-04, 07:55 PM

Nope, not counting it if it was in a surprise round.

Also, the combat started when the guild went back to the ice wall.
Surprise round is a normal part of the game...

I thought it was mainly significant for the Miko fights, as if Durkon had participated, they would have beaten Miko.

But yea, if they fought at full power all the time, it would be too easy.

EDIT: Actually, they did have a fight at full power: when Belkar killed that rat since he was a little behind on xp. If they fought at full power all the time, they'd never get xp.

zero

2013-03-04, 08:01 PM

Think about that, and then ask your original question again.

My, if it isn't the cleric killer!
Hello cleric killer, been killing any clerics lately?

I swear I was about to post almost the same thing... But for some reason I can't exactly pinpoint I felt I would sound too bitter and angry... go figure...

Anyway, I know well why you keep your main casters at bay. I've been a DM of a high level party and I know what feels to have dissolve plot casted uppon yourself...

Yet, if I wasn't aware of my (unexplicable) bad mood, I would probably suggest that this is a narrative trick that tends to wear out...

Plastic_Croc

2013-03-04, 08:16 PM

It's really straight forward and easy to understand.

When The Giant runs the game, the group he has is full of players that aren't very reliable. There's normally at least one player missing most times, and sometimes for extended period - see the bit where they had to "Kill off Roy" because he went on family holiday to Hawaii and whilst there, he stepped on a sharp rock whilst traversing the lava fields and was laid up for longer than expected. The Giant merely used the killing him off bit to write him out of the story until he was able to come back.

Same with V, currently V is working late each night on a big project that could make or break his career, and subsequently, he has had to put Roleplaying on hiatus temporarily.

I mean, that's what happens in every game I've ever played. :smallbiggrin:

jidasfire

2013-03-04, 08:19 PM

It seems that Rich beat us to the punch on this one. My own thoughts on the matter relate to it increasing dramatic tension, and giving more individuals a chance to shine in different facets of the story, which isn't anything that hasn't been discussed.

That said, it seems to me that one of the major points of the series is watching the Order grow into an effective team, and it is nice to see them work together in unison once in awhile. We actually did get this pretty recently, with Roy's ambush on the Linear Guild, which resulted in pretty heavy losses for the villains, at least in the short term. It was cool, and I hope that we get that sort of teamwork again before the story ends, since really, the heroes will probably need it against the likes of Xykon and Redcloak.

As for concerns about Durkon's death, well, that is understandable after a massive split party arc took up the entire last book, but I do think that this story isn't over yet and we don't know how it's going to play out. Maybe vampire Durkon sticks with the Order. A lot could happen between now and the end, and with luck, we'll have at least the majority back in place for some proper scraps.

Psyren

2013-03-04, 08:56 PM

(Also, Star Wars IS fantasy, just fantasy in space.)

The Giant has spoken! :smallamused::smallamused::smallamused:

My, if it isn't the cleric killer!
Hello cleric killer, been killing any clerics lately?

Where were you when this happened? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) :smalltongue:

Porthos

2013-03-05, 01:05 AM

My, if it isn't the cleric killer!
Hello cleric killer, been killing any clerics lately?

I bet he's tired from a long day of killing clerics. :smallamused:

Where were you when this happened? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) :smalltongue:

Actually, zero is referring to the messages Rich got from his friends when he posted this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html). :smalltongue:

Psyren

2013-03-05, 01:23 AM

Actually, zero is referring to the messages Rich got from his friends when he posted this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html). :smalltongue:

Ah right, forgot about that :smallbiggrin:

But why'd you have to link it? Seeing Durkon's happy face holding Hilgya's hand... sniff...

Winter

2013-03-05, 01:25 AM

I think the answer is "yes", but the second question would be "and now?"

You also need to calculate in that the party gained level. Today (level 15ish) they are more powerful with 4 or 5 than they would have been "back then" (level 8ish), so the comparsion of power does not seem valid to me.

Do you argue that "If the Order would stick together, they would steamroll every fight?"

zero

2013-03-05, 07:02 AM

Do you argue that "If the Order would stick together, they would steamroll every fight?"

I wouldn't say it would steamroll, but the main casters would certainly render the rest of the party redundant. One solution is to take them away.

That was well handled in the battle for Azure City, mastered in the whole "Don't split the party" arc and acceptable in the genuinely Nalesque ambush in the Empire of blood. This time though? It's feeling a bit tiresome...

... on the other hand, the Giant just killed Durkon and raised him as a vampire, so don't expect me to say anything positive about the strip anytime soon... :smalltongue:

EnragedFilia

2013-03-05, 02:08 PM

I would hold that you could at least make a case for the Battle of Yavin:
Luke, R2 and, eventually, Han and Chewbacca participate.
Obi-Wan, being dead at the time, does not count.
Leia and C3PO are non-combatants, and put their skills to better use from behind the lines.

Although now that I think about it, does C3PO even get any screentime during that whole sequence? And for that matter, what kind of participation would he even be capable of in a fight? Does having a strictly non-combat member make a party ineligible for having a 'proper fight at full power'? Isn't philosophy fun?