Optimizing Elocater -- am I doin' it right?

[RavynsLand]

I was thinking about this yesterday -- Elocater is so cool-looking, but with their wide and erratic array of abilities they seem hard to optimize. So I hit the books and started putting some thought into what I would do if I were going to optimize the Elocater.

Now, it may take a lot of feats, but human/azurin could offset that, or if you are in a campaign that allows extra feats (most of the ones I play in are). This was the idea:

(Order in the beginning doesn't much matter, unless you use MGP variant rules, in which case:)

Rogue1 (Assassin character concept from The Quintessential Rogue grants martial weapon use and an extra d6 on sneak attack, at the cost of some skills you won't need much, and lower skill points).

Psion1 (Egoist probably, for self-buffs)

Scout3

Rogue2 (round things out here, get the necessary BAB for Spring Attack)

Note: This is where you take Swift Ambusher. At this point you'll have +3d6 sneak attack and +2d6/+1 skirmish. Not bad.

Elocater10

Rogue3 to cap things off, or maybe another prestige class.

Now, Elocaters have some crazy abilities, such as their teleports, floating, speedboosts, super-duper flanking, opportunistic strikes, and the extra 5-foot step which makes full-attack skirmishes a very real thing.

Weapon optimization:

Whip dagger in one hand, basic martial weapon in the other. Don't dual-wield -- use them interchangeably for far/close combat, and keep a buckler on each arm. You'll be self-buffing with psionics, be a total skillmonkey (basic stealth/mobility), fight like a somewhat squishy priest, and be blipping over the battlefield like a maniac, getting high-ground and flanking bonuses with ranged attacks and skirmishing full attacks every single round. :D Not to mention huge bonuses for flanking, sneak attacks, and opportunistic strikes.

How does this sound?

[Psyren]

What are "MGP variant rules?" Also, not familiar with Quintessential Rogue, is that 3rd Party?

Anyway:

In general, Scout may seem like a good fit with Elocater; but even optimized this way, skirmish damage isn't that great. It tops out at a mere +5d6 per attack at Scout 17, and you're not going to get nearly that high with an Elocater/Rogue/Scout build even with Swift Ambusher in the mix. (From what I can see, your build looks like it will top out at +2d6 skirmish and +3d6 sneak attack.) On top of that, skirmish has almost all the same restrictions as sneak attack, minus the need for the target to be denied their dex bonus or flanked. For those reasons I would say focus on optimizing sneak attack instead, particularly melee sneak attack so that you can take advantage of the Elocater's Flanker bonus.

Secondly, Elocater 10 is highly unnecessary, as nothing the class gives you above 7th level is worth losing ML for. All the good stuff - Flanker, Transporter, Scorn Earth, and 10ft. step - come before that point. Even if you plan on sticking with your own build, I would definitely drop Elocater down to 7 and put the levels somewhere else.

Thirdly, Instead of Rogue/Scout/Psion, have you seen the Psychic Rogue? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) A simple PR 13/Elocater 7 build will get just as much bonus damage (5d6) as yours, plus a much higher manifester level, better skills and less feats eaten up in prereqs. Even a Psion/Rogue/Elocater (perhaps with some Shadowmind), or a Psion/Scout/Elocater should realize this this concept a bit more elegantly.

[mattie_p]

For more sneak attack, dip a level of swordsage (at an appropriate initiator level, so you gain assassin's stance; or use a feat [martial stance] for same if not) to gain +2 SA. Also gives you some nice resources via strikes/whatever to use in combat, which refresh more frequently than your PP.

[RavynsLand]

Mmm, don't have whatever book swordsage is in.

And yeah, straight rogue may be better. But then you are kinda wasting the 10 foot step by not using skirmish in some way. I guess my build was a little more for flavor-retention to power ratio, I liked that it utilized everything the Elocater dishes out.

Edit: MGP = Mongoose Publishing, they are third party yeah. Quintessential Rogue is one of their Quintessential line, most of which are very good (ignore Cleric).

[WhatBigTeeth]

It sounds like you aren't using fractional base attack or saves, so for perfect clarity, this is probably what we're talking about:
{table=head]Lvl|Class |Feats |BA|SA |Skirmish |ML|PP|MPL|Known
1 |Rogue 1 |Expeditious Dodge, Mobility | 0|2d6| |--|--|-- |--
2 |Psion 1 | | 0|2d6|0d6/+0 | 1| 2| 1 |3
3 |Scout 1 |Whip Dagger Prof? | 0|2d6|1d6/+0 | 1| 2| 1 |3
4 |Scout 2 | | 1|2d6|1d6/+0 | 1| 2| 1 |3
5 |Scout 3 | | 2|2d6|1d6/+1 | 1| 2| 1 |3
6 |Rogue 2 |Spring Attack | 3|2d6|1d6/+1 | 1| 2| 1 |3
7 |Rogue 3 | | 4|3d6|1d6/+1 | 1| 2| 1 |3
8 |Elocator 1 | | 4|3d6|1d6/+1 | 2| 6| 1 |5
9 |Elocator 2 |Swift Ambusher | 5|3d6|2d6/+1 | 2| 6| 1 |5
10|Elocator 3 | | 6|3d6|2d6/+1 | 3|11| 2 |7
11|Elocator 4 | | 7|3d6|2d6/+1 | 4|17| 2 |9
12|Elocator 5 |Free | 7|3d6|2d6/+1 | 4|17| 2 |9
13|Elocator 6 | | 8|3d6|2d6/+1 | 5|25| 3 |11
14|Elocator 7 | | 9|3d6|2d6/+1 | 6|35| 3 |13
15|Elocator 8 |Free |10|3d6|2d6/+1 | 6|35| 3 |13
16|Elocator 9 | |10|3d6|2d6/+1 | 7|46| 4 |15
17|Elocator 10 | |11|3d6|2d6/+1 | 8|58| 4 |17
18|Rogue 4 |Free |12|3d6|2d6/+2 | 8|58| 4 |17
19|Rogue 5 | |12|4d6|2d6/+2 | 8|58| 4 |17
20|Rogue 6 | |13|4d6|3d6/+2 | 8|58| 4 |17[/table]
Considering that the Psychic Rogue is better in almost every quantitative way (higher BA, 7d6 damage a level earlier, 5th level powers and 100 PP at ML 20 versus 4th level powers and 58 PP at ML 8, feats free to go to things that aren't Spring Attack and Swift Ambusher), I think it's safe to say that just going Psychic Rogue and ignoring Elocator would be a step up.

As far as making optimized builds using Elocator, I think there are three ways to go about it:

1-level dip in a full manifester: Be a full manifester, and also have scorn earth. You could probably do something better with your feats, but it's not the worst ability and manifesters don't have a lot of full-manifesting PrC options.
1-4-level cap on a Psigish: Round out something like Ranger 1/Egoist 6/Slayer 10 without giving up level 9 powers or that last iterative attack. Of course, later splats like Complete Psionic and Lords of Madness gave some even better caps for those, but it's an option.
10 levels in a full manifester, especially Ardent: The biggest reason to do this is to abuse the capstone, probably for an arena setting.

[Psyren]

The Elocater capstone is absolutely terrible and there's no reason to use it. It gives you nothing you can't duplicate with Haste + Hustle or Haste + Schism. In fact, it's worse than Schism since you can't even manifest twice in a round using it, not even at a penalty. (Note that it prevents you from manifesting with the accelerated action even if you manifested a swift action power, i.e. a situation where you would normally be allowed to do 2 powers in a round.)

Just don't take Elocater past 7 and save yourself the trouble. This just happens to be where you get 10' step too.



And yeah, straight rogue may be better. But then you are kinda wasting the 10 foot step by not using skirmish in some way. I guess my build was a little more for flavor-retention to power ratio, I liked that it utilized everything the Elocater dishes out.

In that case, I'm not sure what rogue is doing in this build - Scout gets the same skills and you seem more focused on Skirmish than SA. Is that right?

[RavynsLand]

The Elocater capstone is absolutely terrible and there's no reason to use it. It gives you nothing you can't duplicate with Haste + Hustle or Haste + Schism. In fact, it's worse than Schism since you can't even manifest twice in a round using it, not even at a penalty. (Note that it prevents you from manifesting with the accelerated action even if you manifested a swift action power, i.e. a situation where you would normally be allowed to do 2 powers in a round.)

Just don't take Elocater past 7 and save yourself the trouble. This just happens to be where you get 10' step too.



In that case, I'm not sure what rogue is doing in this build - Scout gets the same skills and you seem more focused on Skirmish than SA. Is that right?

I want both. Elocater shows that it is clearly adapted for scout and rogue both -- its massive propensity for flanking makes it a sneak attack dream, but the skirmish opportunities it presents absolutely cannot be ignored. That's why I wanted both -- utilizing sneak attack and skirmish both, you never run out of attack options. You would be a pure, endless battlefield exploiter. I liked that idea, hence the Swift Ambusher idea.

[Psyren]

Well, all melee gets bonuses from flanking, even if SA isn't one of them. So you could just go with a melee scout build. However, if you really want rogue in there, I would cut it way down - 1 or 3 levels tops. Getting to 10' step in Elocater gives up too much SA/Skirmish in favor of manifesting for that not to be a focus of the build. Trying to split the baby perfectly down the middle will just result in both sides being subpar.

[RavynsLand]

What about Scout3/Psychic Rogue10/Elocater7? Swift Ambusher would ensure that skirmish continues to go up, but you eventually manifest as, what, a 15th level psychic rogue? Full skillmonkey, solid skirmish and SA, solid manifestation, and all the good Elocater powers?

[Psyren]

What about Scout3/Psychic Rogue10/Elocater7? Swift Ambusher would ensure that skirmish continues to go up, but you eventually manifest as, what, a 15th level psychic rogue? Full skillmonkey, solid skirmish and SA, solid manifestation, and all the good Elocater powers?

If you can get your DM to okay Swift Ambusher with Psychic Rogue then this is the best option indeed. Use a pair of reach weapons and keep running circles around your foe with 10 ft. steps while maintaining a flank (w/ flanker) to keep your sneak attack operational as well. You'll have +8d6 bonus damage (4d6 skirmish 4d6 SA) on each attack, and nearly full ML thanks to Practiced Manifester.

[RavynsLand]

You think I should dual wield? Not just use one weapon for the higher attack? Although permaflank WOULD offset it....

[Psyren]

You think I should dual wield? Not just use one weapon for the higher attack? Although permaflank WOULD offset it....

More attacks = more skirmish/SA. Attack bonus is easy to boost thanks to Offensive Precognition, and you can also entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) most targets for additional bonuses. You'll need the TWF line but when you pour on the attacks it'll be worthwhile.

In addition, you can pick up other helpful powers like Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) and Prevenom Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prevenomWeapon.htm) to use with these attacks.

[RavynsLand]

Mmm, indeed. More and more I am enjoying this concept. Now I just need a group. ._.

[Venger]

More attacks = more skirmish/SA. Attack bonus is easy to boost thanks to Offensive Precognition, and you can also entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) most targets for additional bonuses. You'll need the TWF line but when you pour on the attacks it'll be worthwhile.

In addition, you can pick up other helpful powers like Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) and Prevenom Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prevenomWeapon.htm) to use with these attacks.

don't forget the psychic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#psychic) enhancement on your weapons. best part: it's a flat cost instead of +x, so you can add it even when your weapon's already christmas treeed.

[Bonzai]

Yeah, Scout/Elocator was something I had been trying to optimize. I almost wanted to take a level of monk, solely to use training dummy of the masters. That way you get 2 10ft 5ft steps. That would cost me a lvl of Skirmish damage though.

[RavynsLand]

Yeah, Scout/Elocator was something I had been trying to optimize. I almost wanted to take a level of monk, solely to use training dummy of the masters. That way you get 2 10ft 5ft steps. That would cost me a lvl of Skirmish damage though.

But Swift Ambusher means that every level of Rogue you take gives you skirmish as if it was another Scout level. ^_^ Plus Sneak Attack. It is goodz.

[Venger]

Yeah, Scout/Elocator was something I had been trying to optimize. I almost wanted to take a level of monk, solely to use training dummy of the masters. That way you get 2 10ft 5ft steps. That would cost me a lvl of Skirmish damage though.

have someone use a scroll of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you, make a UMD check to emulate monk, and bing bang boom, you're goot for the dummy

[TuggyNE]

have someone use a scroll of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you, make a UMD check to emulate monk, and bing bang boom, you're goot for the dummy

Unfortunately, you need a lot of UMD checks. Like, well over a hundred of them over the course of a week.

[Bonzai]

have someone use a scroll of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on you, make a UMD check to emulate monk, and bing bang boom, you're goot for the dummy

Wow... I didn't know that spell even existed. Awesome. Now I'd just need a cleric, or some one with a +19 modifier in UMD and a wand. Which if I took some levels in rogue I could do myself by the time I theoretically could afford the dummy and the wand, lol.

[Fouredged Sword]

Talk the party cleric into working with you for the week. He devotes every 2+ spell slot to it and you get better an extra 5ft step.

Then take the improved skirmish feat for an extra 2d6 damage when you move 20ft.