Can half-fiends use the Possesion rules?

[Sgt. Cookie]

In BoVD/Fiendish Codex 1, there are rules for possesion. All it says is that the possessing creature must be a fiend, so I ask the playground. Can half-fiends Possess things?

[hamishspence]

Half fiends don't have the Evil subtype though. Nor are they native to the Lower Planes- instead being native to the Material Plane.

That said, the Fiend of Possession, Fiend of Corruption, and Fiend of Blasphemy PRCs from Fiend Folio, only require "Outsider with the Evil subtype".

And the Evil subtype can be gained fairly easily via a ritual in Savage Species.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Technicaly speaking, neither of those are needed. All it says is "a fiend with 4hd with 13 charisma". So I suppose the question boils down to "Is a half-fiend considered a fiend?"

[hamishspence]

If "Evil subtype + outsider" are the minimum to qualify for "Fiend of" PRCs- they they might be what defines a Fiend.

[Krobar]

Technicaly speaking, neither of those are needed. All it says is "a fiend with 4hd with 13 charisma". So I suppose the question boils down to "Is a half-fiend considered a fiend?"

Is a half-elf considered an elf? Is a half-dragon considered a true dragon?

I would say no, in my game.

YMMV.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Yes and No, respectively. Half-Elf has that "Elven blood" clause and a True dragon is clearly defined. "Fiend"? Not so much.

[Invader]

No, there's no reason to believe that they'd be able to. A fiend and half-fiend are 2 different things.

It even says in the description of the half fiend template that it uses the stats and special abilities of the base creature except as noted and there's nothing about them being able to use the possession rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

[Milo v3]

a True dragon is clearly defined.

So clear that there has been a huge number of threads about what a True Dragon is?

Back to Topic: No, they are Half-Fiend. Not a full Fiend.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Invader: Technicaly speaking, there's nothing in the descriptions of actual fiends to state they can use Possesion, either.

Milo: The debates are usualy about whether DW Kobolds fulfil those conditions. If we didn't know what those conditions are, how would we know if Kobolds filled them?

That doesn't really explain anything. Half-Elves can do anything full blood Elves can, but Half-Dragons cannot do everything True Dragons do, so saying that a Half-Fiend is not a full Fiend doesn't really mean anything since there is conflicting evidence as to what extent a half-breed is like it's full blooded parent.

[Urpriest]

It even says in the description of the half fiend template that it uses the stats and special abilities of the base creature except as noted and there's nothing about them being able to use the possession rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

You are aware that there is no text in any fiend's statblock whatsoever that allows them to use the possession rules, right? That's sort of an integral feature of the possession rules.

I would say it's potentially possible. Fiend isn't explicitly defined, reasonable definitions could be "Evil Outsider", "Outsider with the Evil subtype" and "Native of the Lower Planes", of which a Half-Fiend meets the first and not the later ones. There was a thread recently about the definition of Devil that similarly revealed things to be ambiguous.

Regardless, I doubt it's much of a problem. Not all fiends that meet the criteria can possess mortals, rather only some can, and there is no way for players to get the ability (Fiend of Possession being a different thing entirely). If you're the DM, you're the one who picks the definition of Fiend, so you get to make the call. So there's nobody who needs worry about whether the question has a RAW answer.

[Karnith]

Milo: The debates are usualy about whether DW Kobolds fulfil those conditions. If we didn't know what those conditions are, how would we know if Kobolds filled them?
One of the biggest problems with the debates is that no one can agree on what constitutes a true dragon, actually. If everyone could agree on what it meant to be a true dragon, it's be pretty easy to settle whether or not DWK qualify.


That doesn't really explain anything. Half-Elves can do anything full blood Elves can, but Half-Dragons cannot do everything True Dragons do, so saying that a Half-Fiend is not a full Fiend doesn't really mean anything since there is conflicting evidence as to what extent a half-breed is like it's full blooded parent.
Half-elves have an ability that specifically states that they are treated as elves for all effects related to race, though. Half-fiends, half-dragons, and the like lack such an ability.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Karnith: As far as I'm aware it's the ambiguity of what the criteria means, not the criteria itself.

Urpriest: You're right, of course, but I'm interested in the RAW ruling, I guess.

[Urpriest]

For the record, I probably would call a Half-Fiend a Fiend for these purposes. Several members of the lower planes ruling classes are Half-Fiends, it would be weird if they were arbitrarily barred from iconic Fiendish abilities.

[Crake]

I know that fiends are defined simply as "Evil Outsiders" for the purposes of the fiendslaying ability of Knight of the Chalice? Although by that definition an Aasimer that somehow managed to go evil would technically qualify as a fiend, but then so would the fiendslaying abilities.

[hamishspence]

For the record, I probably would call a Half-Fiend a Fiend for these purposes. Several members of the lower planes ruling classes are Half-Fiends, it would be weird if they were arbitrarily barred from iconic Fiendish abilities.

They may have gone through that Savage Species ritual that grants the Evil subtype- or the nearest equivalent to the ritual.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would require a evil subtyped outsider and leave it at that. Or open it up and let all outsiders posses. Touched by an Angel.

[Invader]

Just because the ability isn't specifically spelled out for full fiends is not an argument that half fiends have the ability though. That's an argument for whether fiends can actually use the possession rules and whether specific trumps general.

The important part of the description is where it says a half fiend uses the base creatures ststs and special abilities.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I don't see how that's the important part, honestly. We've already come to the conclusion that Possession is not an ability that is present in the Fiend's statistics, so saying that the important part is "A half-fiend uses the statistics of the base creature" is null, because the statistics aren't important, as far as possession is concerned.

The argument therein is whether or not Half-fiends are considered Fiends, which is a poorly defined term.

[Invader]

I don't see how that's the important part, honestly. We've already come tthat e conclusion that Possession is not an ability that is present in the Fiend's statistic so saying that the important part is "A half-fiend uses the statistics of the base creature" is null, because the statistics aren't important, as far as possession is concerned.

The argument therein is whether or not Half-fiends are considered Fiends, which is a poorly defined term.

It's important because you're working on the assumption (regardless of whether it's right or wrong ) that being able to possess someone is a special ability that fiends have and a half fiend has the special abilities of the base race, not the fiend.

[Sgt. Cookie]

True, but unless you're dealing with Loumara, Possession isn't a normal part of the Fiend's arsenal. It's not an ability of Fiends, it's an ability that requires the user to be a Fiend. And only SOME Fiends* have the Possession ability.



*If you want to get technical, the Hordes of the abyss are infinite, so there are simultaneously an infinite number of Fiends that do have the Possession ability and an infinite number of Fiends that do not. Weird, eh?

[Urpriest]

I would require a evil subtyped outsider and leave it at that. Or open it up and let all outsiders posses. Touched by an Angel.

There's already parallel rules for Angels doing something possession-ish, it's called Channeling and it's in the BoED.