When Do Rounds Start (Scenario Included)

[Fellwarre]

The short question is, when you've got two groups of folks who are blustering and uneasy with each other, when is initiative rolled and rounds actually begin.

The long scenario goes like this:

Party is in a strange city where everyone is happy-alla-time and nobody but the guard carries weapons.

Party rounds a corner and sees a group of guardsmen hassling their intended contact (about to arrest her, in fact.)

Guard turns around and begins to tell them to move away, but notices the party is carrying weapons and knows that they're not stupid-happy like the rest of the town is. At this point, they do not take any offensive actions, but they begin to prepare (three melee put their hands on potions while one spellcaster begins to cast Globe of Invulnerability, Minor.) This is all said in story text before any hostile action is implied by any of the party.

One of the party members attempts to dispel the spellcaster's globe.

This is the point where I started rounds - however, the three melee characters were ready to glug down the potions the moment anyone from the party did anything other than turn around and walk away.

So my question is two-fold:
A) can an action be 'readied' if you're not in round-to-round combat (which would allow my NPC's to have the effects of the potions before the first round began?)

B) Should the spellcaster casting his defensive spell have actually been the thing that initiated rounds? I can see where some people might have seen casting a defensive spell as an offensive action, but the group of NPCs had every intention to allow the players to walk away if they chose to do so...

[Dark.Revenant]

Up to you, really.

Personally, a good common ground to use is that initiative starts as soon as the party decides to make something happen. In this case, the enemy spellcaster has Minor Globe of Invulnerability already cast and the enemy melee guys have "drink potion" readied to go off after the first party member takes his turn. Roll initiative.

To answer your specific questions:

A. Yes. However, there are restrictions to what you can do with a readied action; the potions would be drunk during the first round, not before it. If they roll well on initiative they'll have to delay their turn so they avoid wasting the readied action.

B. Initiative happens only if someone reacts to an event. If the party has no reason to react to the globe, it would not trigger intiative. In this case, the party should have said they're starting combat as soon as you said the globe was being cast; the member saying "I cast dispel magic" implies that he waited for the globe to be fully-cast before doing anything.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Generally initiative should start when someone says it does. If you react to potions being reached for; roll initiative potion actions aren't readied. If you react to "starts casting a spell"; roll initiative spell isn't cast. If you react to weapons being drawn; roll initiative weapons aren't drawn.

Alternatively, let both PC's and NPC's take a non threatening action they "started" before initiative. It's very easy and tempting to give NPC's an action advantage in standoffs, because as the DM you know exactly what the NPC's are thinking.

I had one DM that did this constantly; taking "surprise rounds" even when I described my character cautiously approaching and using the thumb of his off hand to pop the first two inches of his sword out of the scabbard.

[Oscredwin]

Party is in a strange city where everyone is happy-alla-time and nobody but the guard carries weapons.
No Initiative

Party rounds a corner and sees a group of guardsmen hassling their intended contact (about to arrest her, in fact.)
Still no initiative.

Guard turns around and begins to tell them to move away, but notices the party is carrying weapons and knows that they're not stupid-happy like the rest of the town is.
Not yet

At this point, they do not take any offensive actions, but they begin to prepare (three melee put their hands on potions
Tensions rise, both sides are aware of each other. A surprise rounds by the guards or the party are out of the question (the assassins nearby can still get one).


while one spellcaster begins to cast Globe of Invulnerability, Minor.)
Now everyone rolls for initiative! An action is taken! If the first thing the party does is try to dispel the globe right after it's cast than there should have been an initiative roll at the spell cast.

This is all said in story text before any hostile action is implied by any of the party.
This is only true if they did stuff between the globe being cast and the attempt to dispel it (there wasn't the implication of that in the story).

One of the party members attempts to dispel the spellcaster's globe.This is the point where I started rounds - however, the three melee characters were ready to glug down the potions the moment anyone from the party did anything other than turn around and walk away.
While the party is actually starting to do stuff. Both sides have claims of going first, so you do a dex check modified by feats and other special abilities, aka, roll initiative. The readied action works if you count the initiative at the casting of the globe and if they guards win the roll.

What looks like out of combat readied actions are either winning init or getting a surprise round.

So my question is two-fold:
A) can an action be 'readied' if you're not in round-to-round combat (which would allow my NPC's to have the effects of the potions before the first round began?)
No

B) Should the spellcaster casting his defensive spell have actually been the thing that initiated rounds?
Yes!

I can see where some people might have seen casting a defensive spell as an offensive action, but the group of NPCs had every intention to allow the players to walk away if they chose to do so...They didn't have to follow it up with attacks. Roll for initiative isn't saying "now you guys fight". If you're players do that, then roll for the NPCs init in advance and if the players react violently to the spell being cast (give them the chance) then you have them roll init and compare, they may even beat the spellcaster and go while he begins his spell.

[Fellwarre]

Ahh, this is what happens when I think one thing and type another.

So anyway, alter my scenario a bit.

The NPC spellcaster begins to cast 'Globe.'

The PC does not say he 'dispels' it, he says he uses 'dispel' to 'counterspell' it (which, in my opinion is silliness, but I'm not running his character.) This is why initiative is important - because in reality, the only way the PC could 'counterspell' any spell is if he had an action readied to do so (IIRC), which means, since we weren't in rounds, I don't think he could just shout 'counterspell' when the NPC started casting a spell.

Since they had a little bit of jibber-jabber when they first saw each other, I might have allowed it if the PC told me OOC that he was going to try to counterspell any spell cast, but since the idea didn't strike him until the NPC started wiggling fingers, I think not.

But then, the whole thing changes if I should have gone into rounds as soon as the sorcerer cast =\

[Oscredwin]

Yeah, when he says "counterspell" you roll initiative and neither spell gets cast.

[Aracor]

Yeah, when he says "counterspell" you roll initiative and neither spell gets cast.
Agreed. Basically, what will determine whether or not the spell can get counterspelled is the opposed initiative roll. If the PC wins, he can counterspell. If the PC loses, then they were too slow to counterspell and will need to attempt a dispel.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ya, the proper response would to inform the player that counterspelling requires a readied action and roll initiative. No freebies for anyone unless talking, IC not OOC, was done after actions were declared(described by DM for NPCs).

[Pickford]

Ahh, this is what happens when I think one thing and type another.

So anyway, alter my scenario a bit.

The NPC spellcaster begins to cast 'Globe.'

The PC does not say he 'dispels' it, he says he uses 'dispel' to 'counterspell' it (which, in my opinion is silliness, but I'm not running his character.) This is why initiative is important - because in reality, the only way the PC could 'counterspell' any spell is if he had an action readied to do so (IIRC), which means, since we weren't in rounds, I don't think he could just shout 'counterspell' when the NPC started casting a spell.

Since they had a little bit of jibber-jabber when they first saw each other, I might have allowed it if the PC told me OOC that he was going to try to counterspell any spell cast, but since the idea didn't strike him until the NPC started wiggling fingers, I think not.

But then, the whole thing changes if I should have gone into rounds as soon as the sorcerer cast =\

Hrm, I'd advise against ever saying what spell is being cast.

RAW, unless the spell has verbal/somatic components there's no reason the PCs would even be aware anything is going on until it does, and if and only if those are present 'and' someone makes the spellcraft check to identify the spell would they know what's happening. And without the appropriate feats to counter (i.e. improved counterspell) the caster would need to have the 'same' spell available.

Although I agree in this particular case there's no reason why the dispel wouldn't be able to happen 'after' globe was cast.

Generally speaking, if both parties are aware of each other, and there is the possibility of hostility from either end, you should roll initiative and then ask people what they're doing by rounds. (Who knows, maybe the first person to act defuses the tension?)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

RAW, unless the spell has verbal/somatic components there's no reason the PCs would even be aware anything is going on until it does, and if and only if those are present 'and' someone makes the spellcraft check to identify the spell would they know what's happening. And without the appropriate feats to counter (i.e. improved counterspell) the caster would need to have the 'same' spell available.

Spellcraft:
15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

Assuming a roll of ten or rolling for the PC are both solid methods to allow the DM to give PC's info their entitled to while keeping the game moving. Also Globe has Verbal, Somatic and Material Components, so plenty of tells.

Dispel Magic can be used to attempt to counter any spell:
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

[Pickford]

Spellcraft:
15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

Also trained only. So only the mage gets the opportunity to make the check and even if they make it that information is knowledge, so if they don't say anything out loud the other PCs simply don't know what's going on.


Assuming a roll of ten or rolling for the PC are both solid methods to allow the DM to give PC's info their entitled to while keeping the game moving. Also Globe has Verbal, Somatic and Material Components, so plenty of tells.

You can't take 10 while distracted or threatened. edit: (So if the PC were just observing a spellcaster doing his thing, but wasn't potentially the target of said thing, as the NPCs were acting hostile, he could take 10, but he'd need to have some combination of max ranks (assuming at least level 5 for dispel magic) of 8 and at least +1 from prime ability score to identify the spellcast.


Dispel Magic can be used to attempt to counter any spell:
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

True.