Going Gish: Help building a Red Knight Worshipper [3.X FR]

[Tokuhara]

Hello everyone! Toku here with a plea for aid.

I have been browsing the Faerunian Deities for the "premier" gods and came across the Red Knight, the Lady of War, Strategy, and Law. I am torn on how to do a "Devout War-Worshiper" type PC, nor any clue on class, race, etc.

Here's the skinny on the game:

Level 3, All Books open, as well as 3rd party, dragon/dungeon (please site which one), and online.

The Party:

2 Rogues (both Human)
1 Human Cleric of Pelor
1 Half-Nymph Druid
1 Snow Elf Swordsage
1 Goliath Barbarian
1 Half-Ogre Fighter
1 Gnome Bard

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I immediately thought War Weaver.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867778/The_War_Weaver_Guidebook

[Tokuhara]

I immediately thought War Weaver.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867778/The_War_Weaver_Guidebook

Definitely an option, but how would you build the PC to have as much RK flavour as possible?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Honestly, I wouldn't do much mechanically other than follow the standard War Weaver suggestions. Characters are created by roleplaying, not mechanics. As a player, I'd focus on battlefield control and buffing. You know, strategy, tactics, all that stuff, rather than the flash and bombast that comes from blasting. That to me feels more like a devotee of a thinking deity like the Red Knight than, say, an ubercharger.

If you don't like the full caster aspect, you could look at Bard, Marshall or a number of other things. You've got a very flexible concept, and you need to have a think about what kind of playstyle you want the character to have. Then you can think about specific mechanics to achieve that playstyle and support your concept. Not the other way around.

[Urpriest]

I feel like Ruby Knight Vindicator could ably be refluffed to something Red Knight-focused.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

And Crusader, and the White Raven school in general, seems like a great fit fluff-wise.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want this character to be a Gish, I'd go with the standard Sorcadin build:
Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8.

A Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar would be an extremely strong choice and fits the knight-sorcerer theme, given the individual's talents. Lesser Aasimar is in the back of PGtF, identical to MM Aasimar but Humanoid instead of Outsider with no level adjustment. The Magic-Blooded template is in Dragon 306, page 64, it gives Wis -2, Cha +2, and some minor spell-like abilities and skill bonuses for no level adjustment. That would make your only racial ability score adjustment Cha +4, you'd have all of the Aasimar traits except the Outsider type and no Darkvision, as well as all the Magic-Blooded traits (low-light vision, +2 Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft, and Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Magic Aura each 1/day).

Use this trick (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to boost your Sorcerer spells known. Note that a Runestaff also functions as a normal staff, which would be a fitting primary weapon for this character considering followers of the Red Knight were initially from a monastic order of the church of Tempus. You would need to make it at least masterwork at each end, but you can later upgrade weapon properties to it in addition to it being a runestaff, plus you can even add charges of spells to it just like a magical staff from the DMG. Just use it as a two-handed weapon, TWF is a waste of feats and effort, but you can still enchant the offhand side as something like +1 Defending and use Greater Magic Weapon to increase the bonus it contributes to your AC. Be sure to get Magical Training to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor, along with Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Minor Shapeshift, and all the other standard Gish tricks.

[Tokuhara]

QLRN: I kinda dig the Bardsader option, or the Bardshall option

Ur-Priest: The issue is getting RKV past my DM as "I'm not a Ruby Knight Vindicator, I'm a Red Knight Vindicator"

Biff: Sorcadin you say... That gives me an idea...

Let's say Paladin 2/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7, using the Red Hawk Paladin, Devoted Performer, and SC to get the Red Knight feel?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Rubies are Red...:cough:

[Urpriest]

QLRN: I kinda dig the Bardsader option, or the Bardshall option

Ur-Priest: The issue is getting RKV past my DM as "I'm not a Ruby Knight Vindicator, I'm a Red Knight Vindicator"

Biff: Sorcadin you say... That gives me an idea...

Let's say Paladin 2/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7, using the Red Hawk Paladin, Devoted Performer, and SC to get the Red Knight feel?

Regarding RKV, that's precisely my point. The DM will need to decide on a deity for RKV to be associated with in FR anyway since Wee Jas isn't an FR deity, and Red Knight makes the most sense given what the PrC actually does.

The build you stated needs three more levels in the middle to qualify for Sublime Chord.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biff: Sorcadin you say... That gives me an idea...

Let's say Paladin 2/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7, using the Red Hawk Paladin, Devoted Performer, and SC to get the Red Knight feel?

You can't start taking Sublime Chord until your 11th level, due to its prerequisites. Plus I think Bard would be more fitting for a follower of Milil than the Red Knight, especially considering Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). Plus the party already has a Bard, and Inspire Courage doesn't stack unless you're going for a game-breaking DFI build. Furthermore, Bard only has a few of the necessary spells for a Gish, unless you want to use the UMD Runestaff shenanigans, and it doesn't get anywhere near enough spells/day.

If you still want to go that route, something like Paladin 2/ Bard 8/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 or Incantatrix 3 should work. Take your first two levels in Bard, with Melodic Casting and learn the spell Inspirational Boost. You can be a Silverbrow Human to get DFI at 1st level, and that will still let you get Devoted Performer at 3rd with Paladin 1. Don't forget a Badge of Valor.

[Tokuhara]

You can't start taking Sublime Chord until your 11th level, due to its prerequisites. Plus I think Bard would be more fitting for a follower of Milil than the Red Knight, especially considering Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). Plus the party already has a Bard, and Inspire Courage doesn't stack unless you're going for a game-breaking DFI build. Furthermore, Bard only has a few of the necessary spells for a Gish, unless you want to use the UMD Runestaff shenanigans, and it doesn't get anywhere near enough spells/day.

If you still want to go that route, something like Paladin 2/ Bard 8/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 or Incantatrix 3 should work. Take your first two levels in Bard, with Melodic Casting and learn the spell Inspirational Boost. You can be a Silverbrow Human to get DFI at 1st level, and that will still let you get Devoted Performer at 3rd with Paladin 1. Don't forget a Badge of Valor.

If I did a Milil Harmonious Paladin/Bard, I'd honestly go Bard 1/Paladin 2 for the start, and grab another 3 Bard levels over 20, ending with the sum totals being Bard 4/Paladin 16 with Initiate of Milil, Devoted Performer, and Smite to Song on a Snowflake Wardancer who buffs as-needed and can still prod my enemies with a melee hit (though my HP isn't going to be too sweet, along with losing a point of BAB and becoming MAD as a hatter)

And the DM is grouchy because nobody is a Core Race, so to get DFI, I'd need to blow 2 feats at 1 (dragontouched and DFI)

[Tokuhara]

Rethinking, I came to the conclusion that we need a sneak mage who is going to make the Rogues feel useful. So I thought a Strongheart Halfling/Whisper Gnome Spellthief/Beguiler/Daggerspell Mage with Master Spellthief and Godsblood Spelltheft (Fate) would be a decent choice.

How could I build this?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rethinking, I came to the conclusion that we need a sneak mage who is going to make the Rogues feel useful. So I thought a Strongheart Halfling/Whisper Gnome Spellthief/Beguiler/Daggerspell Mage with Master Spellthief and Godsblood Spelltheft (Fate) would be a decent choice.

How could I build this?

I'm not sure what you want to do with a build like that with regards to the two rogues in the party, other than making them obsolete. Beguiler is a Rogue-replacement, not a Rogue-booster.

Just a Batman in general would be extremely useful for this party, especially if you go into something like War Weaver. Specialize in Transmutation and get the feat Ability Booster from Dragon Compendium, and cast Animalistic Power (PH2) to give your target a +4 to Str, Dex, and Con. Pick up a few Paragnostic Apostle for Spatial Awareness and Mind Over Matter, and consider including Incantatrix plus a Ring of Spell Storing to persist personal-range buffs on everyone.

[Tokuhara]

I'm not sure what you want to do with a build like that with regards to the two rogues in the party, other than making them obsolete. Beguiler is a Rogue-replacement, not a Rogue-booster.

Just a Batman in general would be extremely useful for this party, especially if you go into something like War Weaver. Specialize in Transmutation and get the feat Ability Booster from Dragon Compendium, and cast Animalistic Power (PH2) to give your target a +4 to Str, Dex, and Con. Pick up a few Paragnostic Apostle for Spatial Awareness and Mind Over Matter, and consider including Incantatrix plus a Ring of Spell Storing to persist personal-range buffs on everyone.

The major issue is that our cleric is a healbot and the druid is an archer-healer, the Fighter and barbarian are kind of meh, and minus the swordsage, myself, and the bard, everyone is sub-optimal (the Druid is actually made of suck)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The major issue is that our cleric is a healbot and the druid is an archer-healer, the Fighter and barbarian are kind of meh, and minus the swordsage, myself, and the bard, everyone is sub-optimal (the Druid is actually made of suck)

In that case, lots of crowd controls and a few efficient buffs is just what your party needs.

[Tokuhara]

In that case, lots of crowd controls and a few efficient buffs is just what your party needs.

Could be, but the issue is the druid. She thinks her best option every round of combat is to ignore her animal companion and just shoot the bow.

Edit: And a quick question -

I decided to look over War Wizard of Cormyr and noticed Martial Weapon Proficiency (Any) as a prerequisite feat. So I looked at Raumathari Battlemage and saw the prerequisite Martial Weapon Proficiency and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword).

So if I took a 1 level dip into Fighter on a Warmage (using the fighter level for EWP), would I meet the prerequisites for these two PrCs, seeing as how a dip into Fighter gives me proficiency in all Martial Weapons?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Could be, but the issue is the druid. She thinks her best option every round of combat is to ignore her animal companion and just shoot the bow.

You could lead by example if she refuses to take advice. Make a Druid yourself, preferably Strongheart Water Halfling. Get a warbeast riding dog and fill all your spell slots with Enrage Animal and Kelpstrand. Convert one to a SNA1 when necessary for a Greenbound Dire Rat which should immediately use Wall of Thorns on top of opponents to trap them.

[Tokuhara]

You could lead by example if she refuses to take advice. Make a Druid yourself, preferably Strongheart Water Halfling. Get a warbeast riding dog and fill all your spell slots with Enrage Animal and Kelpstrand. Convert one to a SNA1 when necessary for a Greenbound Dire Rat which should immediately use Wall of Thorns on top of opponents to trap them.

I did, and she accused me of "wasting actions," because the bow did slightly more damage than Blood Snow did (note: I was playing a druid, but I went and made an imbecile of myself with an unintentionally illegal combo).

[Urpriest]

Could be, but the issue is the druid. She thinks her best option every round of combat is to ignore her animal companion and just shoot the bow.


I don't think she has the option to just ignore the companion. It's an NPC, it takes actions. Each turn, ask what the companion does.

[Tokuhara]

I don't think she has the option to just ignore the companion. It's an NPC, it takes actions. Each turn, ask what the companion does.

I would, but I think she didn't even write the companion out.

[Tokuhara]

Quick Question on an idea:

Human Holy Warrior Cleric of Tyr 4/Ordained Champion of Tyr 1/Justiciar of Tyr 5/Triadic Knight 7/Justiciar of Tyr 3

Regional Background: Martyr's Progeny

How well COULD this work in my party?