Elf Paragon versus full wizard

[RedDragons]

Is the three levels of elf paragon * which give you *


+2 spot and search +2 to resist enchatments Weapon focus feat and +2 int


At the cost of one wizard casting level .


Would you say that is fair at all trade?

[sambouchah]

I would do it. Then again I don't play wizards all that often so I dunno. +2 Int sounds alright

[Carth]

The only significant feature is +2 int, which comes at level 3. Investing 3 levels, one of which doesn't advance casting, for +2 int does not even approach being worthwhile.

[Cog]

I wouldn't take it. It's just a bunch of small numbers added to the small numbers you've already got; there's nothing new or interesting there, in my opinion. Worth losing a caster level for? Not really. Is it going to kill your character to do so anyway? Not really.

[Ailowynn]

Just about the only useful thing for a Wizard there is the +2 Int. Useful at low levels? Sure. Past that? You can buy it. And it certainly beats new spells--just grab some scrolls or potions and you've got +4 int easily.

[Amphetryon]

If you desperately need the Weapon Focus to fulfill a PrC prereq, it's not the worst way of doing that. It's also a potential path for expressing "the Elfiest Elf who ever Elfed," when used as a lead-in to Ruathar.

Otherwise, it's sub-optimal (thou shalt not lose caster levels).

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Just play a Grey Elf from MM1. +2 int without having to waste three casting levels!

[T.G. Oskar]

The only significant feature is +2 int, which comes at level 3. Investing 3 levels, one of which doesn't advance casting, for +2 int does not even approach being worthwhile.

Really? I'd say otherwise.

For starters, depending on how you intend to go, you lose at most one feat, delay your spellcasting progression by 1, and your familiar is considered one level lower. On the other hand, you gain +3 to Reflex saves, +2 to Intelligence, about 6 extra HP on average (d8 vs. d4).

Let's measure the best benefit with the worst loss. You gain a +2 to Intelligence which is considered a racial increase. This means it stacks with EVERYTHING. Int 18? That makes it Int 20. Note that gray elves can enter, so that means you get a +4 to Intelligence for the cost of one CL. Since it advances Wizard (and only Wizard), you lose at most one 8th level and one 9th level spell slot, but ALL your spells' DC increase by 1 and you gain extra lower level slots. If you can reach Int 28, the loss becomes insignificant, because you can replace the lost CL by other means (Practiced Spellcaster, for example), and you gain exactly the same amount of spell slots with less effort (and, if you would gain Int 28 normally, that means you get Int 30, which means even more lower level slots. The way a Wizard works, it could be one level lower and STILL remain as powerful as before.

The loss is harder if you choose to enter a PrC that delays spell levels, but the usual suspects for Wizards (Archmage, Incantatrix, Master Specialist) lose no spell levels, so the loss is minimal. On the other hand, ALL spells are harder to resist, you gain more skill points after that 3rd level as Paragon, and you gain more lower level spell slots. I think that the levels in Elf Paragon are pretty much a bargain, if you know how to build it.

[jedipilot24]

If you desperately need the Weapon Focus to fulfill a PrC prereq, it's not the worst way of doing that. It's also a potential path for expressing "the Elfiest Elf who ever Elfed," when used as a lead-in to Ruathar.

Otherwise, it's sub-optimal (thou shalt not lose caster levels).

Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard 3/Elf Paragon 3/Ruathar 3.
From there you could go either Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade.

And to be fair, it's better phrased: thou shalt not lose more than three caster levels.

[Amphetryon]

Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard 3/Elf Paragon 3/Ruathar 3.
From there you could go either Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade.

And to be fair, it's better phrased: thou shalt not lose more than three caster levels.I cannot tell if the first part is intended as rebuttal or not.

That "better phrasing" doesn't appear to account for the amount of actual game time a given hypothetical Character would be behind the curve in spell levels and caster level, compared to a full caster within the same party. Exceptions exist, but they do not disprove the maxim.

[RedDragons]

how would the low light vision stack between the ruathar and pargaon?

[ArcturusV]

I'd say in response to the "Do not lose Caster Levels" it's kind of an awkward position. I mean you would WANT Elf Paragon starting at level 2, to get the soonest use of the bonuses (before items become more important than inherent bonuses), but it's also at low level that losing a caster level hurts you more. Sure, level 20 it's not going to matter too terribly much if you are a Wizard 20, or Wizard 17/Elf Paragon 3.

But being something like hitting level 3, and not yet having 2nd level spells can hurt you pretty badly. You're starting to get into areas where a lot of your "I win" buttons from first level are going to be less effective against the enemies you face (In my experience). You need that 2nd level spells to start getting access to spells that help keep that option open to shut down fights.

Least that's my concern about running things like Paragons (Elf or Human) on Wizard characters. Losing out on those benchmarks tends to hurt. 1st level spells are fine, and will carry the day until you get to level 3 well enough. Then you want your 2nd level spells to carry the day until 5. 5 tends to be a tipping point in my experience, when you're throwing down level 3 spells you usually have options that start being effective at any level. Maybe not OPTIMAL... but you won't go from spells that rocked an encounter to leveling up a few times and having them nigh useless.

If I'm starting some game at level 12 or something, I wouldn't care. But when I'm slogging through 1-5 it makes a big difference.

[Arbane]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere, but what happens if a Paragon gets reincarnated and comes back as a different race?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Elf Paragon versus full wizard? No, human paragon versus full wizard? More likely.

The Elf could have more Int (hurray subraces!), but the Human Paragon class loses fewer caster levels and has better features overall. That, and I love the idea of playing 1 level wizards::smalltongue: Human Paragon 1/Specialist Wizard 1/HP+2/Master Specialist.

[Psyren]

Note that Elf Paragon levels also don't give you spells known, only spells/day. At low levels when new spells are hard to come by this is very painful. Coupled with the progression loss you can find yourself in a lot of trouble as a fledgling wizard.

I do think the Int bonus is valuable though. It's untyped, so you can consider it equivalent to two Wishes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Note that Elf Paragon levels also don't give you spells known, only spells/day. At low levels when new spells are hard to come by this is very painful. Coupled with the progression loss you can find yourself in a lot of trouble as a fledgling wizard.

I do think the Int bonus is valuable though. It's untyped, so you can consider it equivalent to two Wishes.

I don't see anything different about its wording from any other prestige class that advances spellcasting ability, and it's generally accepted that effective Wizard spellcasting levels give spells known just like actual levels in the Wizard class.

I would only consider using Elf Paragon on a Gish build that's already losing caster levels early. In that case, it's Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1 versus Elf Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1. Fighter can be substituted for any full BAB class(es) that fulfills the proficiency requirements for Spellsword.

[ArcturusV]

Spells per Day

At 2nd and 3rd level, an elf paragon gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in wizard. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic feats, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of elf paragon to her level in wizard, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

Well, it specifically says only "Spells per day". Compare to what Archmage says, for example:

"When a new Archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (And spells known if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class..."

Similar wording seems to be the same across other Caster Progression PrCs.

This MIGHT just be a case of lazy writing. Might not be. In fact it could almost be read that the standard boiler plate there you'd see on Archmage also implies it wouldn't gain you new spells for leveling up a wizard. As they might be referencing Spontaneous Casting only, not Memorized Casting. But again, that doesn't seem to be the intention that people have read into it. But I mean the wizard class feature isn't tied to their Spellcasting ability really. It's a different power listing that is level independent outside of the "When you gain a new level of wizard, add two spells" feature. But I don't think that's actually the same thing if you really think about it.

Another consideration for that is... the Paragons are pretty much the only PrCs I know of that specifically raise only ONE class's spellcasting off the top of my head, that isn't a divine class with access to every single spell that exists at all times. It might be that how the Elf Paragon ability is worded is how the PrC caster progression is supposed to work for Wizards. They weren't supposed to get new spells just for getting the +1 to existing spellcasting.

[Psyren]

I don't see anything different about its wording from any other prestige class that advances spellcasting ability, and it's generally accepted that effective Wizard spellcasting levels give spells known just like actual levels in the Wizard class.

Actually, no; while there are some PrCs (like Loremaster/Archmage) that do include the necessary clause "(and spells known, if applicable)," there are many others (like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight) that don't.

[T.G. Oskar]

Another consideration for that is... the Paragons are pretty much the only PrCs I know of that specifically raise only ONE class's spellcasting off the top of my head, that isn't a divine class with access to every single spell that exists at all times. It might be that how the Elf Paragon ability is worded is how the PrC caster progression is supposed to work for Wizards.

Stalker of Kharash only progresses Ranger spellcasting.

Lyric Thaumaturge only progresses Bard spellcasting.

Nosomatic Chirurgeon advances other spellcasting, so it might not be the case, but it grants Adept spellcasting if you have none. If you're an Adept, it only advances Adept spellcasting, thus.

Because of the way it's meant to be accessed, Hellfire Warlock only progresses Warlock infusions. Though, the way it's written, it can progress Dragonfire Adept infusions.

In any case, it's a per-table basis. Most tables, from what I can recollect, advance spells known and spells per day, whether you're a Wizard or a Sorcerer, regardless of what it says. It depends on how strict the reading is.

[ArcturusV]

Well rangers don't have "Spells known" and thus wouldn't have a line like that in there. I know others that do rangers only and it only says "Spells per day" as makes sense. Even though rangers have some spells that are wizard/sorcerer, the are still divine on the "Can memorize any spell in existence" thing.

I just think it's interesting. It might be something that was never intended. I mean yeah, most just say "Spells per day and spells known". But they also are just generic "Arcane Caster" so they need "Spells Known" to cover Sorcerer style, as that's the only way they can learn new spells to cast. Compared to a wizard who can just scribe 'em in. Similarly the Bard is also running on spells known, so the same clause makes sense.

I don't really expect anyone to go "Huh... yeah... screw you Wizard Dippers, no free spells for you dipping PrCs!". Just something I might do when I'm DMing since it seems the implication is there.

[Story]

In short: No
In long: Nooooooooooooooo

The only time I'd even consider it is in an Ultimate Magus build where you lose the level anyway and might as well get something for it.

As mentioned before, getting access to higher level spells faster is very important. A single +2 int isn't worth giving yourself Sorceror progression. It also means that you can't get Spontaneous Divination until level 8 at the earliest.